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On September 03 2013 11:15 LimeNade wrote:
Great read and completely agree on TvZ. It is arguably one of the most painful match ups to watch at the moment when a zerg makes a couple mistakes and dies to 3/3 bio/mine. Zerg early game all ins were effective before vs Terran but now the Terran players have figured out how to defend vs it which makes Zerg one dimensional (ling bling muta) as MC stated.
I would argue that PvT is just as bad right now. Terrans makes a mistake and protoss gets 1-2 money storms and dies to 3/3 chargelots. Terran early game harrass was effective before vs P but now the Protoss players have learn to defend drops and how to use MSC's early defensive strength to tech up to AoE very quickly. I guess the only difference is that Ts still have the scv pull (although I feel like scv pull is similar to a roach bane timing).
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On September 03 2013 10:57 JP Dayne wrote:
one of the reasons I don't give a flying fuck about koreans is because only 0,5% make an actual effort to learn to communicate with us viewers. I can't relate to them. I can't root for them. I can't like them. As MC said, everyone play the same build over and over, how to differentiate a player from another?
MC is the fucking man, even with his broke english, he had personality. I bet that even when his progamer carreer is over, he will aspire to greater things in korea, a country that seems to me have a lot of good values, while lacking hard on others -- that's where MC will shine.
I didn't know LOL get that amount of 'hate' from sc2 community.. was he talking about the korean scene?
I see you're new around here.
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Tanks Terry that was great! And translators will always be needed everywhere, especially if you're good. 
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On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:On September 03 2013 07:04 goody153 wrote:On September 03 2013 06:56 mikumegurine wrote:
what if Blizzard remade Brood War with next-gen 3D graphics
same exact Brood war, just with updated top PC 3D graphics
would this 3D BW game be better than SC2 HOTS? no .. pathing and all other issues are there It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW.
iirc I read that the 12-unit limit was intentional to prevent people massing blobs of units.
Given how SC2 plays, it might well be a solid point.
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On September 03 2013 11:49 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:On September 03 2013 07:04 goody153 wrote:On September 03 2013 06:56 mikumegurine wrote:
what if Blizzard remade Brood War with next-gen 3D graphics
same exact Brood war, just with updated top PC 3D graphics
would this 3D BW game be better than SC2 HOTS? no .. pathing and all other issues are there It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW. iirc I read that the 12-unit limit was intentional to prevent people massing blobs of units. Given how SC2 plays, it might well be a solid point.
I have already demonstrated that a 12 unit selection limit would not make units not blob. Also, please cite your sources.
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it's not just a match-up problem. With the wave of MOBA games, came the chance for any gamer to become elite. LoL, Dota/2 are simple games, easy to master mechanically. There is no pressure as it is not 1v1. The only thing that you need to become elite is elite team play and communication. Of course people will be drawn to this - they go from being a zero in SC2 to someone with hope of becoming an elite player in another game. Then they start watching streams. Then their friends move to the game. It is a snowballing effect.
SC2 is a victim of (don't get mad, i love SC2 and this site):
a) it's difficulty and learning curve;
b) severe elitism, from pros, high ladder players and (sometimes, not always) sites/forum like this (witness the whinging from some when the WCS replay pack released)
c) Blizzard not listening to pro's re: balance and units (MC was on the money with the broodlords/ultra remark, and imo it should be zerg who can tackle high tech compositions with masses of low tech units, not terran)
re: (B) - just look at the recent WCS finals, and the DOTA2 finals. Bomber wins, he looks like someone just told him his mother died. In DOTA 2, Alliance and the crowd go NUTS when they won. And DOTA2 has the same problems as SC2 - opening phase is boring, a bit of back and forth until someone makes a key mistake, then just treading water for another 20 minutes until the team that made the mistake dies a slow inevitable death. Yet LoL and Dota and no doubt BAS are rising rapidly.
There must be more engagement from the "top end" of SC2 with the plebs. Not only should people be HAPPY the replays were released, there should be pros and high level players on here and elsewhere going through the replays and explaining builds, teaching people why this works and how to execute that. Instead we have people worrying that some gold or diamond player might DARE to copy a pro build and elevate himself (and therefore the game and community)
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re: (B) - just look at the recent WCS finals, and the DOTA2 finals. Bomber wins, he looks like someone just told him his mother died.
If the ESL staff didn't direct his every move it might have looked more genuine, he wanted to go take the trophy and they blocked him. he was probably annoyed.
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On September 03 2013 11:06 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 10:59 alexanderzero wrote:
I think Terran needs to be re-balanced in terms of the relative strengths of each units. Marines, marauders, medivacs, and widow mines are overpowered in relation to other terran units. I don't mean they are overpowered in terms of absolute balance of the game versus the other races, but that bio styles are always the best choice in these matchups.
Throughout the metagame development of Wings of Liberty, against Zerg and Protoss we saw plenty of Seige tanks, hellions, banshees, ravens, and even battlecruisers. The sad thing is that most of these units were buffed in Heart of the Swarm and still aren't being used.
For me the ideal changes would be seeing support units buffed in a way that specifically aids mech use, but not so much bio. I'm not sure how it could be done, but if they focused on single units at a time they would probably get there. uh, what? We rarely ever saw mech in TvP. The problem with TvZ in HotS is the swarmhost, not bio being "too good".
Just because we rarely saw mech... my point still stands. For a long time variations on the 1/1/1 marine/tank build were very popular in TvP. There was also Byun's unique bio/tank style. We saw banshees a lot more often, and players who could pull it off would go sky terran in the late game against Protoss. A lot of this was enabled by the fact that the metagame hadn't developed to where players realized the dominance of bio.
People don't go mech because mech sucks. On one hand it gets hard countered ridiculously and on the other the unit composition doesn't offer as many tactical options. It's harder to pull off moves like flanks and drops, and the units are just slow in general. If mech is bad, and bio is good, then how can you say the relative balance between the two is not an issue?
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terry thank you for your translation.
won't comment on the content b/c this thread is TL in a nutshell -_-
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Mexico2170 Posts
I've always considered Mc to be a very inteligent person, hope Blizzard listens.
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On September 03 2013 11:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 11:49 Dfgj wrote:On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:On September 03 2013 07:04 goody153 wrote:On September 03 2013 06:56 mikumegurine wrote:
what if Blizzard remade Brood War with next-gen 3D graphics
same exact Brood war, just with updated top PC 3D graphics
would this 3D BW game be better than SC2 HOTS? no .. pathing and all other issues are there It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW. iirc I read that the 12-unit limit was intentional to prevent people massing blobs of units. Given how SC2 plays, it might well be a solid point. I have already demonstrated that a 12 unit selection limit would not make units not blob. Also, please cite your sources.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=286075
There was another blog in which a designer for Brood War (pretty sure it was Rob Pardo?) explicit states that limited unit selection was an intentional design feature in Brood War, but I'm having trouble finding it. The thread was a link to a blog iirc.
Also curious how you demonstrated limited unit selection would not make units not blob? I know the blob effect has a lot to do with the game engine, but I find it hard to believe that say Terran would keep bio in a blob vs Protoss with limited unit selection, kiting zealots would be a nightmare. Even if it was possible to keep units in a blob, I feel like it would rarely be ideal...
Edit: Yeah, watched your video, have to say it seems to me that it would fix a moving your army across the map. Sure units blob up still, but with limited unit selection it requires way more apm / control groups to the extent that it's not ideal (you'd end up using all your control groups for army). Imagien trying to pull your army back due to storms or trying to split vs them, trying to set up concaves from that position ect. Bad players wouldn't have the skill to use multiple control groups like that and good players would recognize it's not the most efficient way to control your army.
And that being said, I'm fine with unlimited unit selection. I don't think there are any major problems with it. The bigger issue for me is that game design leads players to reaching optimal saturation on 3 bases for minerals (up to 5 for gas I guess?), but thats another story
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On September 03 2013 12:38 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 11:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 11:49 Dfgj wrote:On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:On September 03 2013 07:04 goody153 wrote:
[quote]
no .. pathing and all other issues are there It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW. iirc I read that the 12-unit limit was intentional to prevent people massing blobs of units. Given how SC2 plays, it might well be a solid point. I have already demonstrated that a 12 unit selection limit would not make units not blob. Also, please cite your sources. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=286075There was another blog in which a designer for Brood War (pretty sure it was Rob Pardo?) explicit states that limited unit selection was an intentional design feature in Brood War, but I'm having trouble finding it. The thread was a link to a blog iirc. Also curious how you demonstrated limited unit selection would not make units not blob? I know the blob effect has a lot to do with the game engine, but I find it hard to believe that say Terran would keep bio in a blob vs Protoss with limited unit selection, kiting zealots would be a nightmare. Even if it was possible to keep units in a blob, I feel like it would rarely be ideal...
Having it being a design feature and it stopping the blob effect are different things entirely.
How I demonstrated that units would still blob with only 12 selected:
On September 03 2013 09:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 08:58 forumtext wrote:On September 03 2013 08:50 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 08:37 forumtext wrote:On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:
[quote]
It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW. 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a in BW give you marching army in a line, 1a x 61 stalkers give you a ball. It only gave an army in a line because of pathing. What do we get if we select 6 x 12 in army in SC2 then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a, still ball? Also try this: Using 6 x 12 army in sc2, can we make a ball? is it worth the wait(for them to form a ball)? If we can't make a deathball in the first place, then deathball problem solved? Yes, they still ball. EDIT: You could engage in BW without them going by a line as long as they werent going down a ramp too btw. They wouldnt ball up like in SC2, but you would have a pretty good cluster. Positioning and setting up your concave before you engaged went a long ways. It helps in SC2 too (and is done from time to time) but it acts differently. EDIT2 Video proof that 1a-5a (60 stalkers) balls + Show Spoiler +
I am not challenging the idea that limiting unit selection doesnt make things more difficult to do (like kiting, as you say) but that the blob still happens regardless.
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Thank you very much MC, well said. I was a fan since you are irOn[KaL] many years ago 
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On September 03 2013 12:47 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 12:38 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 03 2013 11:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 11:49 Dfgj wrote:On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:10 Zorkmid wrote:
[quote]
It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play. This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW. iirc I read that the 12-unit limit was intentional to prevent people massing blobs of units. Given how SC2 plays, it might well be a solid point. I have already demonstrated that a 12 unit selection limit would not make units not blob. Also, please cite your sources. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=286075There was another blog in which a designer for Brood War (pretty sure it was Rob Pardo?) explicit states that limited unit selection was an intentional design feature in Brood War, but I'm having trouble finding it. The thread was a link to a blog iirc. Also curious how you demonstrated limited unit selection would not make units not blob? I know the blob effect has a lot to do with the game engine, but I find it hard to believe that say Terran would keep bio in a blob vs Protoss with limited unit selection, kiting zealots would be a nightmare. Even if it was possible to keep units in a blob, I feel like it would rarely be ideal... Having it being a design feature and it stopping the blob effect are different things entirely. How I demonstrated that units would still blob with only 12 selected: Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 09:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 08:58 forumtext wrote:On September 03 2013 08:50 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 08:37 forumtext wrote:On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:
[quote]
This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW. 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a in BW give you marching army in a line, 1a x 61 stalkers give you a ball. It only gave an army in a line because of pathing. What do we get if we select 6 x 12 in army in SC2 then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a, still ball? Also try this: Using 6 x 12 army in sc2, can we make a ball? is it worth the wait(for them to form a ball)? If we can't make a deathball in the first place, then deathball problem solved? Yes, they still ball. EDIT: You could engage in BW without them going by a line as long as they werent going down a ramp too btw. They wouldnt ball up like in SC2, but you would have a pretty good cluster. Positioning and setting up your concave before you engaged went a long ways. It helps in SC2 too (and is done from time to time) but it acts differently. EDIT2 Video proof that 1a-5a (60 stalkers) balls + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAeSZ5RNk9A&feature=youtu.be I am not challenging the idea that limiting unit selection doesnt make things more difficult to do (like kiting, as you say) but that the blob still happens regardless.
Okay, so we've established that it is not the fault of unlimited unit selection but rather the fault of the SC2 engine that renders the "blob effects".
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On September 03 2013 11:06 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 10:59 alexanderzero wrote:
I think Terran needs to be re-balanced in terms of the relative strengths of each units. Marines, marauders, medivacs, and widow mines are overpowered in relation to other terran units. I don't mean they are overpowered in terms of absolute balance of the game versus the other races, but that bio styles are always the best choice in these matchups.
Throughout the metagame development of Wings of Liberty, against Zerg and Protoss we saw plenty of Seige tanks, hellions, banshees, ravens, and even battlecruisers. The sad thing is that most of these units were buffed in Heart of the Swarm and still aren't being used.
For me the ideal changes would be seeing support units buffed in a way that specifically aids mech use, but not so much bio. I'm not sure how it could be done, but if they focused on single units at a time they would probably get there. uh, what? We rarely ever saw mech in TvP. The problem with TvZ in HotS is the swarmhost, not bio being "too good".
The problem with TvZ is medivac speed, which force zerg into muta(lingbling), which get completely rolled by biomines
It's a problem because zerg options are completely locked down, you cannot do anything else than muta
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On September 03 2013 12:55 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 12:47 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 12:38 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 03 2013 11:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 11:49 Dfgj wrote:On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:14 painkilla wrote:
[quote]
This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again. Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW. iirc I read that the 12-unit limit was intentional to prevent people massing blobs of units. Given how SC2 plays, it might well be a solid point. I have already demonstrated that a 12 unit selection limit would not make units not blob. Also, please cite your sources. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=286075There was another blog in which a designer for Brood War (pretty sure it was Rob Pardo?) explicit states that limited unit selection was an intentional design feature in Brood War, but I'm having trouble finding it. The thread was a link to a blog iirc. Also curious how you demonstrated limited unit selection would not make units not blob? I know the blob effect has a lot to do with the game engine, but I find it hard to believe that say Terran would keep bio in a blob vs Protoss with limited unit selection, kiting zealots would be a nightmare. Even if it was possible to keep units in a blob, I feel like it would rarely be ideal... Having it being a design feature and it stopping the blob effect are different things entirely. How I demonstrated that units would still blob with only 12 selected: On September 03 2013 09:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 08:58 forumtext wrote:On September 03 2013 08:50 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 08:37 forumtext wrote:On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
[quote]
Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW. 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a in BW give you marching army in a line, 1a x 61 stalkers give you a ball. It only gave an army in a line because of pathing. What do we get if we select 6 x 12 in army in SC2 then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a, still ball? Also try this: Using 6 x 12 army in sc2, can we make a ball? is it worth the wait(for them to form a ball)? If we can't make a deathball in the first place, then deathball problem solved? Yes, they still ball. EDIT: You could engage in BW without them going by a line as long as they werent going down a ramp too btw. They wouldnt ball up like in SC2, but you would have a pretty good cluster. Positioning and setting up your concave before you engaged went a long ways. It helps in SC2 too (and is done from time to time) but it acts differently. EDIT2 Video proof that 1a-5a (60 stalkers) balls + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAeSZ5RNk9A&feature=youtu.be I am not challenging the idea that limiting unit selection doesnt make things more difficult to do (like kiting, as you say) but that the blob still happens regardless. Okay, so we've established that it is not the fault of unlimited unit selection but rather the fault of the SC2 engine that renders the "blob effects".
I think its time to re-introduce this idea:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223889
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224272
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Russian Federation604 Posts
Wow! Nice! MC speech was great!
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On September 03 2013 13:00 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 12:55 Xiphos wrote:On September 03 2013 12:47 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 12:38 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 03 2013 11:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 11:49 Dfgj wrote:On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
[quote]
Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW. iirc I read that the 12-unit limit was intentional to prevent people massing blobs of units. Given how SC2 plays, it might well be a solid point. I have already demonstrated that a 12 unit selection limit would not make units not blob. Also, please cite your sources. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=286075There was another blog in which a designer for Brood War (pretty sure it was Rob Pardo?) explicit states that limited unit selection was an intentional design feature in Brood War, but I'm having trouble finding it. The thread was a link to a blog iirc. Also curious how you demonstrated limited unit selection would not make units not blob? I know the blob effect has a lot to do with the game engine, but I find it hard to believe that say Terran would keep bio in a blob vs Protoss with limited unit selection, kiting zealots would be a nightmare. Even if it was possible to keep units in a blob, I feel like it would rarely be ideal... Having it being a design feature and it stopping the blob effect are different things entirely. How I demonstrated that units would still blob with only 12 selected: On September 03 2013 09:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 08:58 forumtext wrote:On September 03 2013 08:50 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 08:37 forumtext wrote:On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:
[quote]
Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW. 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a in BW give you marching army in a line, 1a x 61 stalkers give you a ball. It only gave an army in a line because of pathing. What do we get if we select 6 x 12 in army in SC2 then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a, still ball? Also try this: Using 6 x 12 army in sc2, can we make a ball? is it worth the wait(for them to form a ball)? If we can't make a deathball in the first place, then deathball problem solved? Yes, they still ball. EDIT: You could engage in BW without them going by a line as long as they werent going down a ramp too btw. They wouldnt ball up like in SC2, but you would have a pretty good cluster. Positioning and setting up your concave before you engaged went a long ways. It helps in SC2 too (and is done from time to time) but it acts differently. EDIT2 Video proof that 1a-5a (60 stalkers) balls + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAeSZ5RNk9A&feature=youtu.be I am not challenging the idea that limiting unit selection doesnt make things more difficult to do (like kiting, as you say) but that the blob still happens regardless. Okay, so we've established that it is not the fault of unlimited unit selection but rather the fault of the SC2 engine that renders the "blob effects". I think its time to re-introduce this idea: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223889http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224272
Why not re-introduce sc2:bw? Gets rid of blob AND encourages more bases AND it has the units that everybody always asks for.
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On September 03 2013 13:00 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 12:55 Xiphos wrote:On September 03 2013 12:47 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 12:38 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 03 2013 11:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 11:49 Dfgj wrote:On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:18 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
[quote]
Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~ Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW. iirc I read that the 12-unit limit was intentional to prevent people massing blobs of units. Given how SC2 plays, it might well be a solid point. I have already demonstrated that a 12 unit selection limit would not make units not blob. Also, please cite your sources. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=286075There was another blog in which a designer for Brood War (pretty sure it was Rob Pardo?) explicit states that limited unit selection was an intentional design feature in Brood War, but I'm having trouble finding it. The thread was a link to a blog iirc. Also curious how you demonstrated limited unit selection would not make units not blob? I know the blob effect has a lot to do with the game engine, but I find it hard to believe that say Terran would keep bio in a blob vs Protoss with limited unit selection, kiting zealots would be a nightmare. Even if it was possible to keep units in a blob, I feel like it would rarely be ideal... Having it being a design feature and it stopping the blob effect are different things entirely. How I demonstrated that units would still blob with only 12 selected: On September 03 2013 09:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 08:58 forumtext wrote:On September 03 2013 08:50 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 08:37 forumtext wrote:On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:On September 03 2013 07:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On September 03 2013 07:45 painkilla wrote:
[quote]
Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection? No? Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments? Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW. 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a in BW give you marching army in a line, 1a x 61 stalkers give you a ball. It only gave an army in a line because of pathing. What do we get if we select 6 x 12 in army in SC2 then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a, still ball? Also try this: Using 6 x 12 army in sc2, can we make a ball? is it worth the wait(for them to form a ball)? If we can't make a deathball in the first place, then deathball problem solved? Yes, they still ball. EDIT: You could engage in BW without them going by a line as long as they werent going down a ramp too btw. They wouldnt ball up like in SC2, but you would have a pretty good cluster. Positioning and setting up your concave before you engaged went a long ways. It helps in SC2 too (and is done from time to time) but it acts differently. EDIT2 Video proof that 1a-5a (60 stalkers) balls + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAeSZ5RNk9A&feature=youtu.be I am not challenging the idea that limiting unit selection doesnt make things more difficult to do (like kiting, as you say) but that the blob still happens regardless. Okay, so we've established that it is not the fault of unlimited unit selection but rather the fault of the SC2 engine that renders the "blob effects". I think its time to re-introduce this idea: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223889http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224272
If a remember, units still bunch up because players click really fast and often. The units only spread out if you tell the army to move a long distance. So it looks nice in a video, but might not work in the hands of a professional player.
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On September 03 2013 11:55 Schism wrote:
it's not just a match-up problem. With the wave of MOBA games, came the chance for any gamer to become elite. LoL, Dota/2 are simple games, easy to master mechanically. There is no pressure as it is not 1v1. The only thing that you need to become elite is elite team play and communication. Of course people will be drawn to this - they go from being a zero in SC2 to someone with hope of becoming an elite player in another game. Then they start watching streams. Then their friends move to the game. It is a snowballing effect.
SC2 is a victim of (don't get mad, i love SC2 and this site):
a) it's difficulty and learning curve;
b) severe elitism, from pros, high ladder players and (sometimes, not always) sites/forum like this (witness the whinging from some when the WCS replay pack released)
c) Blizzard not listening to pro's re: balance and units (MC was on the money with the broodlords/ultra remark, and imo it should be zerg who can tackle high tech compositions with masses of low tech units, not terran)
re: (B) - just look at the recent WCS finals, and the DOTA2 finals. Bomber wins, he looks like someone just told him his mother died. In DOTA 2, Alliance and the crowd go NUTS when they won. And DOTA2 has the same problems as SC2 - opening phase is boring, a bit of back and forth until someone makes a key mistake, then just treading water for another 20 minutes until the team that made the mistake dies a slow inevitable death. Yet LoL and Dota and no doubt BAS are rising rapidly.
There must be more engagement from the "top end" of SC2 with the plebs. Not only should people be HAPPY the replays were released, there should be pros and high level players on here and elsewhere going through the replays and explaining builds, teaching people why this works and how to execute that. Instead we have people worrying that some gold or diamond player might DARE to copy a pro build and elevate himself (and therefore the game and community)
Totally wrong. I play LoL/Dota 2 because I enjoy those games. SC2 just sucks. Before SC2, me and my friends used to play lots of bw until 2010. Eventhough bw was old and outdated, we still enjoyed it. You can find as many excuses as you can, but SC2 is a bad game. If you read why pros retire, its because they don't have fun with sc2 like they used to with bw.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
