There was another blog in which a designer for Brood War (pretty sure it was Rob Pardo?) explicit states that limited unit selection was an intentional design feature in Brood War, but I'm having trouble finding it. The thread was a link to a blog iirc.
Also curious how you demonstrated limited unit selection would not make units not blob? I know the blob effect has a lot to do with the game engine, but I find it hard to believe that say Terran would keep bio in a blob vs Protoss with limited unit selection, kiting zealots would be a nightmare. Even if it was possible to keep units in a blob, I feel like it would rarely be ideal...
Having it being a design feature and it stopping the blob effect are different things entirely.
How I demonstrated that units would still blob with only 12 selected:
On September 03 2013 09:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On September 03 2013 08:58 forumtext wrote:
On September 03 2013 08:50 TheRabidDeer wrote: [quote] It only gave an army in a line because of pathing.
What do we get if we select 6 x 12 in army in SC2 then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a, still ball?
Also try this: Using 6 x 12 army in sc2, can we make a ball? is it worth the wait(for them to form a ball)? If we can't make a deathball in the first place, then deathball problem solved?
Yes, they still ball.
EDIT: You could engage in BW without them going by a line as long as they werent going down a ramp too btw. They wouldnt ball up like in SC2, but you would have a pretty good cluster. Positioning and setting up your concave before you engaged went a long ways. It helps in SC2 too (and is done from time to time) but it acts differently.
EDIT2 Video proof that 1a-5a (60 stalkers) balls + Show Spoiler +
I am not challenging the idea that limiting unit selection doesnt make things more difficult to do (like kiting, as you say) but that the blob still happens regardless.
Okay, so we've established that it is not the fault of unlimited unit selection but rather the fault of the SC2 engine that renders the "blob effects".
If a remember, units still bunch up because players click really fast and often. The units only spread out if you tell the army to move a long distance. So it looks nice in a video, but might not work in the hands of a professional player.
I'm just saying this was a concept that never got off the ground because the project eventually died out. What you see there was just the beginning of the research possible. I'm sure they could've eventually addressed it for faster shorter movements since they were able to figure it out for longer paths already.
As for SC2:BW, that's still by far one of my favorite custom maps and personally (beware my bias is strong in this) I thought this is what SC2 should've been from the very beginning. Start where BW left off and build upon it even more through the expansions.
Given how many complained about SC2, I was surprised it didnt take off. Even more surprised that kespa didnt switch to that instead of sc2.
The problem is that it is only a mod ...
BW only works with ALL the "limitations" like limited unit selection and the funky movement which kept the units spread out. Most BW mods dont have that last part and for some limited unit selection is optional. People simply dont understand that the "lid" which limited unit selection and the funky unit movement put on unit density is important to game balance and how the game plays out.
The most exciting and awesome battles in SC2 for me are 2 slow Zerglings vs 2 other slow Zerglings ... and if one player wins with both of his Zerglings alive it shows real skill. Moving a clump of Zerglings/Banelings into a bunch of Marines isnt as exciting for me ... even though there are the graphical "fireworks" of "wooohooo green blobs".
Obviously its important to game balance, but that doesn't mean it needs to be kept in RTS games for the rest of time. That just means that if you remove limited unit selection you need to rebalance accordingly. Big battles have lots of skill in them, too; a-moving zerglings and banelings may not be difficult, but making sure they come from the proper flank is. Avoiding widow mines is even more so.
There seems to be the group who is anti change who seem to think the game is fine. So all these little tweak aren't gonna make people play SC2, they need a whole overhaul and new image. Maybe more cartoony feel (league) or maybe just a lighter setting.
I agree the whole army on 1 hotkey is the first change. This promotes 1a from point a to their base..... even i do it (masters) just because it's easier (macro behind the attack). I love that in brood war you need to use more than 4 hotkeys, separates the 80 apm to 150 apm players (more gap in skill levels). Now i can literally use only 4 hot keys (remember back in BW, i used zero and p for probe, now i don't need to reach that far). Please just try it out on the beta server. Try anything to save the game.
On September 03 2013 06:56 mikumegurine wrote: what if Blizzard remade Brood War with next-gen 3D graphics
same exact Brood war, just with updated top PC 3D graphics
would this 3D BW game be better than SC2 HOTS?
no .. pathing and all other issues are there
It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play.
This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again.
Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~
Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection?
No?
Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments?
Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW.
iirc I read that the 12-unit limit was intentional to prevent people massing blobs of units.
Given how SC2 plays, it might well be a solid point.
I have already demonstrated that a 12 unit selection limit would not make units not blob. Also, please cite your sources.
On September 03 2013 15:22 Malphite wrote: There seems to be the group who is anti change who seem to think the game is fine. So all these little tweak aren't gonna make people play SC2, they need a whole overhaul and new image. Maybe more cartoony feel (league) or maybe just a lighter setting.
I agree the whole army on 1 hotkey is the first change. This promotes 1a from point a to their base..... even i do it (masters) just because it's easier (macro behind the attack). I love that in brood war you need to use more than 4 hotkeys, separates the 80 apm to 150 apm players (more gap in skill levels). Now i can literally use only 4 hot keys (remember back in BW, i used zero and p for probe, now i don't need to reach that far). Please just try it out on the beta server. Try anything to save the game.
The casual gamer won't appreciate that the game artificially try to limit their control. It would become a chore quickly when you want to organize your armies : double click select 12 marines, ctrl 1, move them out of the screen, double click select the next 12 marines, ctrl 2 move them out the screen ... the repeat for marauders. Especially if at the end of the day I just want to amove or be able to separate marines from marauders during battle. It even goes against a general software design principle when you try to prevent user errors by limiting their options.
Marines firing in a ball isn't very realistic because the ones in the back should be blocked by the ones in the front. Now if they can make that work (say in SC3) then it would be fine.
On September 03 2013 07:04 goody153 wrote: [quote]
no .. pathing and all other issues are there
It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play.
This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again.
Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~
Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection?
No?
Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments?
Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW.
iirc I read that the 12-unit limit was intentional to prevent people massing blobs of units.
Given how SC2 plays, it might well be a solid point.
I have already demonstrated that a 12 unit selection limit would not make units not blob. Also, please cite your sources.
On September 03 2013 15:22 Malphite wrote: There seems to be the group who is anti change who seem to think the game is fine. So all these little tweak aren't gonna make people play SC2, they need a whole overhaul and new image. Maybe more cartoony feel (league) or maybe just a lighter setting.
I agree the whole army on 1 hotkey is the first change. This promotes 1a from point a to their base..... even i do it (masters) just because it's easier (macro behind the attack). I love that in brood war you need to use more than 4 hotkeys, separates the 80 apm to 150 apm players (more gap in skill levels). Now i can literally use only 4 hot keys (remember back in BW, i used zero and p for probe, now i don't need to reach that far). Please just try it out on the beta server. Try anything to save the game.
The casual gamer won't appreciate that the game artificially try to limit their control. It would become a chore quickly when you want to organize your armies : double click select 12 marines, ctrl 1, move them out of the screen, double click select the next 12 marines, ctrl 2 move them out the screen ... the repeat for marauders. Especially if at the end of the day I just want to amove or be able to separate marines from marauders during battle. It even goes against a general software design principle when you try to prevent user errors by limiting their options.
Marines firing in a ball isn't very realistic because the ones in the back should be blocked by the ones in the front. Now if they can make that work (say in SC3) then it would be fine.
I think it would be better if limited united selection is used only in tournaments and in GM League.
TvT fun to watch. PvT a few big late battle, but intense and exciting. PvZ many different strategy. ZvZ, PvP, also okay. TvZ, hive unit no good, roach hydra no good, 4m too good.
^Because that would mean getting rid of the unit that was "supposedly" to fill in the role of Lurkers (SH if you wondering) since of redundancy issues and also admitting that the previous game was superior in that design and the Blizzard simply won't admit it due to ego issues.
It would be more fun to watch, but much tougher to play.
This is considered going backward and Blizzard is not going to do that. And I would agree with them. They should give players more things to do rather than make them fight the AI again.
Sometimes I wonder if all these people saying "make them fight the AI" or "make them fight the interface" have ever played Brood War at all, or are just posting based off of cherry-picked hear say from reddit or something.... ~_~
Wonder if you wonder the same about people saying how bad SC2 is because of unit clumping and unlimited selection?
No?
Do you actually understand any of the things you're saying or are you just regurgitating recycled pieces of previous BW vs SC2 arguments?
Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW.
iirc I read that the 12-unit limit was intentional to prevent people massing blobs of units.
Given how SC2 plays, it might well be a solid point.
I have already demonstrated that a 12 unit selection limit would not make units not blob. Also, please cite your sources.
MC voiced an opinion of many, many people who some were opressed by saying it ("elitist jerks"), now that MC said that, i hope it will be viable view to hold. Ye the linearity of SC2 makes you predict and expect, the constant trade-of in BW matches makes you wonder what will happen.
Nothing new, besides the fact it was one of the most prominent SC2 player who spoke this, i appreciate it and I see MC in the new light. And the bit about mentioning JangBi is also a big, big plus. Im a fan.
Before i used to look at him as a guy in spotlight doing his thing. But i appreciate when gamers and/or athletes have their own voice and their own thoughts, it makes them bigger than what they appear to be.
On September 03 2013 19:02 DinoToss wrote: MC voiced an opinion of many, many people who some were opressed by saying it ("elitist jerks"), now that MC said that, i hope it will be viable view to hold. Ye the linearity of SC2 makes you predict and expect, the constant trade-of in BW matches makes you wonder what will happen.
Nothing new, besides the fact it was one of the most prominent SC2 player who spoke this, i appreciate it and I see MC in the new light. And the bit about mentioning JangBi is also a big, big plus. Im a fan.
Before i used to look at him as a guy in spotlight doing his thing. But i appreciate when gamers and/or athletes have their own voice and their own thoughts, it makes them bigger than what they appear to be.
I think lots of pros have their own thoughts but don't want to voice it. Especially after what happened to destiny.
On September 03 2013 19:02 DinoToss wrote: MC voiced an opinion of many, many people who some were opressed by saying it ("elitist jerks"), now that MC said that, i hope it will be viable view to hold. Ye the linearity of SC2 makes you predict and expect, the constant trade-of in BW matches makes you wonder what will happen.
Nothing new, besides the fact it was one of the most prominent SC2 player who spoke this, i appreciate it and I see MC in the new light. And the bit about mentioning JangBi is also a big, big plus. Im a fan.
Before i used to look at him as a guy in spotlight doing his thing. But i appreciate when gamers and/or athletes have their own voice and their own thoughts, it makes them bigger than what they appear to be.
I think lots of pros have their own thoughts but don't want to voice it. Especially after what happened to destiny.
On September 03 2013 19:02 DinoToss wrote: MC voiced an opinion of many, many people who some were opressed by saying it ("elitist jerks"), now that MC said that, i hope it will be viable view to hold. Ye the linearity of SC2 makes you predict and expect, the constant trade-of in BW matches makes you wonder what will happen.
Nothing new, besides the fact it was one of the most prominent SC2 player who spoke this, i appreciate it and I see MC in the new light. And the bit about mentioning JangBi is also a big, big plus. Im a fan.
Before i used to look at him as a guy in spotlight doing his thing. But i appreciate when gamers and/or athletes have their own voice and their own thoughts, it makes them bigger than what they appear to be.
I think lots of pros have their own thoughts but don't want to voice it. Especially after what happened to destiny.
I don't think it's really fair to compare the player with the highest winnings in SC2, who has won two GSL championships and other tournaments as well, and is uncontested as one of the best players of SC2 of all time, to someone like Destiny who's basically a streamer/entertainer who has been involved in numerous dramas/dumb incidents and started the whole "Sc2 is dying" bandwagon with an overwhelming amount of negativity. Especially considering MC has been a lot more constructive in the way that he expressed his opinion, and that goes a long way.
On September 03 2013 11:53 TheRabidDeer wrote: I have already demonstrated that a 12 unit selection limit would not make units not blob. Also, please cite your sources.
This makes sc2 worse because a 200/200 fight takes a 2sec fight. with 12 unit selection, the player who has better a click will win this easier than without 12 unit selection.
On September 03 2013 15:14 XXXSmOke wrote: While were discussing SC2 BW
Dont forget that SC2's custom map system makes sure that any mod like that one never take off. Thx to the lovely arcade.
I'm so glad that SC2 BW was brought up! More people need to pay attention to this mod. It produces such massively entertaining games and it's a shame that the last tournament didn't attract larger viewership. People play SC2 BW. It's sc2's salvation!
On September 03 2013 19:02 DinoToss wrote: MC voiced an opinion of many, many people who some were opressed by saying it ("elitist jerks"), now that MC said that, i hope it will be viable view to hold. Ye the linearity of SC2 makes you predict and expect, the constant trade-of in BW matches makes you wonder what will happen.
Nothing new, besides the fact it was one of the most prominent SC2 player who spoke this, i appreciate it and I see MC in the new light. And the bit about mentioning JangBi is also a big, big plus. Im a fan.
Before i used to look at him as a guy in spotlight doing his thing. But i appreciate when gamers and/or athletes have their own voice and their own thoughts, it makes them bigger than what they appear to be.
I think lots of pros have their own thoughts but don't want to voice it. Especially after what happened to destiny.
Well sorry if worded it poorely, i mean i appreciate it not only for having thoughts but properly articulating them and/or having balls to do so.
In a second generation of Esports we can clearly see that trend setters, the people on top are reluctant to voice their opinions, a specially when those opinions contrast with the status quo, or are even a bit critical. We can clearly see that in both SC2 and CS GO community, where it is unappealing to refer to previous generation.
The public of current Esport generation, is clearly hyped and geuinly drawn by current games, you can't (this is i believe the mindset of trend setters) really nit-pick things, cause its hype-kill, its like saying to your own kid his music sucks because Beatles were so fucking good (crappy analogy).
refer to : Day9 frisbee Destiny outbreak Few shy remarks by SC2 fan-favorites.
On September 03 2013 19:02 DinoToss wrote: MC voiced an opinion of many, many people who some were opressed by saying it ("elitist jerks"), now that MC said that, i hope it will be viable view to hold. Ye the linearity of SC2 makes you predict and expect, the constant trade-of in BW matches makes you wonder what will happen.
Nothing new, besides the fact it was one of the most prominent SC2 player who spoke this, i appreciate it and I see MC in the new light. And the bit about mentioning JangBi is also a big, big plus. Im a fan.
Before i used to look at him as a guy in spotlight doing his thing. But i appreciate when gamers and/or athletes have their own voice and their own thoughts, it makes them bigger than what they appear to be.
I think lots of pros have their own thoughts but don't want to voice it. Especially after what happened to destiny.
What happened to him?
It didn't went well for him in front of community:
On September 03 2013 19:02 DinoToss wrote: MC voiced an opinion of many, many people who some were opressed by saying it ("elitist jerks"), now that MC said that, i hope it will be viable view to hold. Ye the linearity of SC2 makes you predict and expect, the constant trade-of in BW matches makes you wonder what will happen.
Nothing new, besides the fact it was one of the most prominent SC2 player who spoke this, i appreciate it and I see MC in the new light. And the bit about mentioning JangBi is also a big, big plus. Im a fan.
Before i used to look at him as a guy in spotlight doing his thing. But i appreciate when gamers and/or athletes have their own voice and their own thoughts, it makes them bigger than what they appear to be.
I think lots of pros have their own thoughts but don't want to voice it. Especially after what happened to destiny.
I don't think it's really fair to compare the player with the highest winnings in SC2, who has won two GSL championships and other tournaments as well, and is uncontested as one of the best players of SC2 of all time, to someone like Destiny who's basically a streamer/entertainer who has been involved in numerous dramas/dumb incidents and started the whole "Sc2 is dying" bandwagon with an overwhelming amount of negativity. Especially considering MC has been a lot more constructive in the way that he expressed his opinion, and that goes a long way.
Maybe Destiny got own ways of saying certain things (he got the personality), but admit it, it wasn't totally untrue what he said. Eventhough he said SC2 is dying, which is definitely exageration, he provided reasonings and solutions. Most of which was agreed by community. But I agree, he was more harm than use for the community.
EPT
