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On September 02 2013 13:13 ETisME wrote:
Awwww yeah mc basically saying the exact same thing I had been complaining about.
Yes, Blizzard needs to un-nerf ALL THE BUILDS from WoL. No more hand-holding. More builds lead to more losses at different timings leads to more danger which leads to more excitement and ends in more entertainment.
As I'm beginning to see myself. Blizzard is the one killing SC2 everytime they patch the game to help some poor diamond player whining on their SC2 official forums about <unit composition> being too strong.
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On September 03 2013 19:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:13 ETisME wrote:
Awwww yeah mc basically saying the exact same thing I had been complaining about. Yes, Blizzard needs to un-nerf ALL THE BUILDS from WoL. No more hand-holding. More builds lead to more losses at different timings leads to more danger which leads to more excitement and ends in more entertainment. As I'm beginning to see myself. Blizzard is the one killing SC2 everytime they patch the game to help some poor diamond player whining on their SC2 official forums about <unit composition> being too strong.
Nit sure what you want to say but pretty important to say that buildorder-win still needs a bigger nerf than now.
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Thanks so much for the translation! What a great read, I respect MC more than ever now... What a great guy.
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Respect to MC - nothing else...
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On September 03 2013 13:30 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 13:20 sCCrooked wrote:On September 03 2013 13:10 Plansix wrote:On September 03 2013 13:00 sCCrooked wrote:On September 03 2013 12:55 Xiphos wrote:On September 03 2013 12:47 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 12:38 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 03 2013 11:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 11:49 Dfgj wrote:On September 03 2013 07:57 painkilla wrote:
[quote]
Recycling what ? I said BW interface compared to SC2 was backward and part of playing with BW is fighting against that interface. If I want to amove my 61 dragoons I have to make 6 selections and then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a instead of just double clicking and a click in SC2 and I think that the latter is better. It is progress. Unlike people like you who keep repeating unit clumping and unlimited selection make SC2 an inferior game to BW. iirc I read that the 12-unit limit was intentional to prevent people massing blobs of units. Given how SC2 plays, it might well be a solid point. I have already demonstrated that a 12 unit selection limit would not make units not blob. Also, please cite your sources. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=286075There was another blog in which a designer for Brood War (pretty sure it was Rob Pardo?) explicit states that limited unit selection was an intentional design feature in Brood War, but I'm having trouble finding it. The thread was a link to a blog iirc. Also curious how you demonstrated limited unit selection would not make units not blob? I know the blob effect has a lot to do with the game engine, but I find it hard to believe that say Terran would keep bio in a blob vs Protoss with limited unit selection, kiting zealots would be a nightmare. Even if it was possible to keep units in a blob, I feel like it would rarely be ideal... Having it being a design feature and it stopping the blob effect are different things entirely. How I demonstrated that units would still blob with only 12 selected: On September 03 2013 09:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 08:58 forumtext wrote:On September 03 2013 08:50 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 03 2013 08:37 forumtext wrote:
[quote]
1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a in BW give you marching army in a line, 1a x 61 stalkers give you a ball. It only gave an army in a line because of pathing. What do we get if we select 6 x 12 in army in SC2 then 1a-2a-3a-4a-5a-6a, still ball? Also try this: Using 6 x 12 army in sc2, can we make a ball? is it worth the wait(for them to form a ball)? If we can't make a deathball in the first place, then deathball problem solved? Yes, they still ball. EDIT: You could engage in BW without them going by a line as long as they werent going down a ramp too btw. They wouldnt ball up like in SC2, but you would have a pretty good cluster. Positioning and setting up your concave before you engaged went a long ways. It helps in SC2 too (and is done from time to time) but it acts differently. EDIT2 Video proof that 1a-5a (60 stalkers) balls + Show Spoiler + I am not challenging the idea that limiting unit selection doesnt make things more difficult to do (like kiting, as you say) but that the blob still happens regardless. Okay, so we've established that it is not the fault of unlimited unit selection but rather the fault of the SC2 engine that renders the "blob effects". I think its time to re-introduce this idea: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223889http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224272 If a remember, units still bunch up because players click really fast and often. The units only spread out if you tell the army to move a long distance. So it looks nice in a video, but might not work in the hands of a professional player. I'm just saying this was a concept that never got off the ground because the project eventually died out. What you see there was just the beginning of the research possible. I'm sure they could've eventually addressed it for faster shorter movements since they were able to figure it out for longer paths already. As for SC2:BW, that's still by far one of my favorite custom maps and personally (beware my bias is strong in this) I thought this is what SC2 should've been from the very beginning. Start where BW left off and build upon it even more through the expansions. Given how many complained about SC2, I was surprised it didnt take off. Even more surprised that kespa didnt switch to that instead of sc2.
You're surprised that Kespa didn't switch to an unpopular, not fully developed custom map? I mean...?
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maybe this is MC's attempt to shift focus and scrutiny away from the insanely unbalanced PvT. It does seem that Z needs a mid-game buff for ZvT, but I don't think that Terran can handle Zerg's late-game army composition, so Terran almost feels forced to extend the mid-game ad infinitum. I'd love to see a small nerf on ultralisks and a buff to broodlords. Per usual, it would also be nice to once in a while see battlecruisers on the map. It's not fun when only Zerg gets to use their T3 units. Terrans can't use battlecruisers, Protosses can't use Carriers.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 03 2013 21:28 KJSharp wrote:
maybe this is MC's attempt to shift focus and scrutiny away from the insanely unbalanced PvT. It does seem that Z needs a mid-game buff for ZvT, but I don't think that Terran can handle Zerg's late-game army composition, so Terran almost feels forced to extend the mid-game ad infinitum. I'd love to see a small nerf on ultralisks and a buff to broodlords. Per usual, it would also be nice to once in a while see battlecruisers on the map. It's not fun when only Zerg gets to use their T3 units. Terrans can't use battlecruisers, Protosses can't use Carriers.
Actually high level terrans last time i checked can handle ultras just as well, hence we are slowly seeing shift from korean zergs from getting T3 to actually keeping on using mass muta bane after hive is done (well, and lack of gas too :S).
Also, Tosses get to use 2(!) and sometimes even 3(!) T3 units in PvT, problems :D?
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I agree that TvZ now is literally just Bio mine, but I dont understand why Terrans dont mech as much vs Zerg, Less unit control required, more powerful army, but susceptible to muta harass due to immmobile army  . Hellbat tanks and thors id imagine would tear though muta bling?
Anyone else think for the general terran populus for us low leaguers ( Below diamond) PvT late game is nearly impossible when the protoss has both colossi and storm? It takes a lot of apm to kite zealots while sniping HTS and focussing down the colossus especially is the protoss has some phoenix mixed in there too.
Regardless , great interview/reflection on the state of the game by MC :D
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love to mc :D
But he kindly ignores the imbalance in TvP, it´s his right he is P and he faces Korean Terran.
Today Innovation won against a SUPER failed hidden DT tech only by a small margin. And only by pulling his scvs.
I hate the thought process you got to have as Terran. Vs P kill him before 15 min (low leagues before 20-25 min)
vs Z kill him before 5-3 ultras + 5 base or get 3-3 pure marauder and 4th base.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 03 2013 21:44 Hadronsbecrazy wrote:I agree that TvZ now is literally just Bio mine, but I dont understand why Terrans dont mech as much vs Zerg, Less unit control required, more powerful army, but susceptible to muta harass due to immmobile army . Hellbat tanks and thors id imagine would tear though muta bling? Anyone else think for the general terran populus for us low leaguers ( Below diamond) PvT late game is nearly impossible when the protoss has both colossi and storm? It takes a lot of apm to kite zealots while sniping HTS and focussing down the colossus especially is the protoss has some phoenix mixed in there too. Regardless , great interview/reflection on the state of the game by MC :D
Swarmhosts+vipers. Mech is like one of the worst things to do against zerg in HotS imo. Hell, even without SHs some zergs have no problems killing it on move-out (Soulkey vs Maru series from WCS Korea Season 1 for reference (both of 'em)). In PvT... well, i feel sorry for terrans in that match-up (for ones that do not pull SCVs ofc :D).
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 03 2013 22:09 plgElwood wrote:
love to mc :D
But he kindly ignores the imbalance in TvP, it´s his right he is P and he faces Korean Terran.
Today Innovation won against a SUPER failed hidden DT tech only by a small margin. And only by pulling his scvs.
I hate the thought process you got to have as Terran. Vs P kill him before 15 min (low leagues before 20-25 min)
vs Z kill him before 5-3 ultras + 5 base or get 3-3 pure marauder and 4th base.
Oh gosh, get 4th base as terran! Let's be fair, Lalush is kinda right, if there is no reason to go beyong 3 base, there is already something wrong.
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On September 03 2013 13:15 saddaromma wrote:You can find as many excuses as you can, but SC2 is a bad game. If you read why pros retire, its because they don't have fun with sc2 like they used to with bw.
Agree that SC2 could be more and more better, and it's remotely good in comparison of Brood War.
MC is right too, speaking about the community and respect of the older players, I seem the same feeling when I play and get insults from random players, and continuous whine for a race or a gamestyle.
But, the greater responsibility is of the Blizzard, they are paying the choises of a bad design, that i call an incomplete design.
WoL is an incomlpete game, and HotS is an incomplete game patched with some new units. They should to work to complete the first design of SC2 and make it a masterpiece as Brood War was.
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On September 03 2013 21:28 KJSharp wrote:
maybe this is MC's attempt to shift focus and scrutiny away from the insanely unbalanced PvT. It does seem that Z needs a mid-game buff for ZvT, but I don't think that Terran can handle Zerg's late-game army composition, so Terran almost feels forced to extend the mid-game ad infinitum. I'd love to see a small nerf on ultralisks and a buff to broodlords. Per usual, it would also be nice to once in a while see battlecruisers on the map. It's not fun when only Zerg gets to use their T3 units. Terrans can't use battlecruisers, Protosses can't use Carriers.
Last time I saw a Zerg complaining about Terran being able to play without T3 tech, the Terran respond was that Medivacs are T3 =)
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Maybe for the next one they should introduce a new race for multiplayer only , so that can lead into starcraft 3 when it comes to story? Bottom line it seems as if Blizzard needs to do something to change things up 
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Jang Min Chul hwaiting! Good luck in WCS Season 3!
Thanks for translating Terry.
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On September 03 2013 22:25 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 21:28 KJSharp wrote:
maybe this is MC's attempt to shift focus and scrutiny away from the insanely unbalanced PvT. It does seem that Z needs a mid-game buff for ZvT, but I don't think that Terran can handle Zerg's late-game army composition, so Terran almost feels forced to extend the mid-game ad infinitum. I'd love to see a small nerf on ultralisks and a buff to broodlords. Per usual, it would also be nice to once in a while see battlecruisers on the map. It's not fun when only Zerg gets to use their T3 units. Terrans can't use battlecruisers, Protosses can't use Carriers. Last time I saw a Zerg complaining about Terran being able to play without T3 tech, the Terran respond was that Medivacs are T3 =)
The tier discussion is rather idiotic anyway; people call 3/3 Marines "tier1" while you can't have 3/3 before 17', i. e. long after a Battlecruiser theoretically obtainable as early as 7'30. To me it makes no sense to call a 3/3 Zergling with Adrenal Glands or a 3-3-3 Zealot with Charge "tier1" considering the amount of tech/time invested in them, even if they still come from the elementary military building.
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Problem is that in BW executing a build effectivly was slightly harder than in SC2, so a good player rearly lost to a lower skill level.
In sc2, we see many upsets based on some weird timings or build orders (anyone remmber the first time terrans used 1/1/1 builds?).
Its simply not so rewarding to the player as bw was. I remmber when i started to play sc2 when it came out and noone knew 2v2 or 3v3 builds.
I was fun, but very soon we got the 4 gate baneling from 2v2 as a standard and the ling baneling with DT on 3v3. It simply became .
I belive thet two factors make broodwar a more interesting long term game:
1. Mechanicly the game is more demanding, so there is more room for error/unexpected situations.
2. Units dont hard counter each other in almost any case.
With those two things, a build-order-win can be reversed easier than in sc2.
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On September 03 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 22:25 Big J wrote:On September 03 2013 21:28 KJSharp wrote:
maybe this is MC's attempt to shift focus and scrutiny away from the insanely unbalanced PvT. It does seem that Z needs a mid-game buff for ZvT, but I don't think that Terran can handle Zerg's late-game army composition, so Terran almost feels forced to extend the mid-game ad infinitum. I'd love to see a small nerf on ultralisks and a buff to broodlords. Per usual, it would also be nice to once in a while see battlecruisers on the map. It's not fun when only Zerg gets to use their T3 units. Terrans can't use battlecruisers, Protosses can't use Carriers. Last time I saw a Zerg complaining about Terran being able to play without T3 tech, the Terran respond was that Medivacs are T3 =) The tier discussion is rather idiotic anyway; people call 3/3 Marines "tier1" while you can't have 3/3 before 17', i. e. long after a Battlecruiser theoretically obtainable as early as 7'30. To me it makes no sense to call a 3/3 Zergling with Adrenal Glands or a 3-3-3 Zealot with Charge "tier1" considering the amount of tech/time invested in them, even if they still come from the elementary military building.
Agree, those Tier discussions are pretty stupid. The basic idea behind Tiers is to compare similar techsetups of different races, like in Warcraft or CnC. Which is simply not the setup of Starcraft.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 03 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 22:25 Big J wrote:On September 03 2013 21:28 KJSharp wrote:
maybe this is MC's attempt to shift focus and scrutiny away from the insanely unbalanced PvT. It does seem that Z needs a mid-game buff for ZvT, but I don't think that Terran can handle Zerg's late-game army composition, so Terran almost feels forced to extend the mid-game ad infinitum. I'd love to see a small nerf on ultralisks and a buff to broodlords. Per usual, it would also be nice to once in a while see battlecruisers on the map. It's not fun when only Zerg gets to use their T3 units. Terrans can't use battlecruisers, Protosses can't use Carriers. Last time I saw a Zerg complaining about Terran being able to play without T3 tech, the Terran respond was that Medivacs are T3 =) The tier discussion is rather idiotic anyway; people call 3/3 Marines "tier1" while you can't have 3/3 before 17', i. e. long after a Battlecruiser theoretically obtainable as early as 7'30. To me it makes no sense to call a 3/3 Zergling with Adrenal Glands or a 3-3-3 Zealot with Charge "tier1" considering the amount of tech/time invested in them, even if they still come from the elementary military building.
Hence 3-3 marines are T2! Also, tier discussion only makes sense for zerg, since neither protoss or terrans have clear difference between tech levels.
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On September 03 2013 22:41 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote:On September 03 2013 22:25 Big J wrote:On September 03 2013 21:28 KJSharp wrote:
maybe this is MC's attempt to shift focus and scrutiny away from the insanely unbalanced PvT. It does seem that Z needs a mid-game buff for ZvT, but I don't think that Terran can handle Zerg's late-game army composition, so Terran almost feels forced to extend the mid-game ad infinitum. I'd love to see a small nerf on ultralisks and a buff to broodlords. Per usual, it would also be nice to once in a while see battlecruisers on the map. It's not fun when only Zerg gets to use their T3 units. Terrans can't use battlecruisers, Protosses can't use Carriers. Last time I saw a Zerg complaining about Terran being able to play without T3 tech, the Terran respond was that Medivacs are T3 =) The tier discussion is rather idiotic anyway; people call 3/3 Marines "tier1" while you can't have 3/3 before 17', i. e. long after a Battlecruiser theoretically obtainable as early as 7'30. To me it makes no sense to call a 3/3 Zergling with Adrenal Glands or a 3-3-3 Zealot with Charge "tier1" considering the amount of tech/time invested in them, even if they still come from the elementary military building. Hence 3-3 marines are T2! Also, tier discussion only makes sense for zerg, since neither protoss or terrans have clear difference between tech levels.
How come?
You need Barracks for Marines -> low tier
You need Barracks and Factory for Tanks -> higher tier
You need Armory for Thors -> even higher tier
You need Fusion Core for BC -> highest tier
Or something like this... Pretty clear difference between tech levels, right?
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EPT
