On September 04 2013 00:46 insitelol wrote: I can't say i don't like MC... but his statements always seem a bit futile and shallow minded (at least for me). I get his point about the need for learning english. But does it rly have to do anything with being a progamer? Well ofc it does, but for a much lesser extent than any other rly important thing means for a person who makes money playing a game. I was hyped about the "progamer mindset" headline. And what did i get? MC bragging about his self improvement in english, which is by the way not so great. His speculations about ZvT seem fair, but i don't rly think that all of the SC2 real problems lay in certain match ups. And even if blizzard actually imrpoves it, that won't change a lot.
I think his point was that you should interact with the fans because they make esports possible.
On September 04 2013 00:46 insitelol wrote: I can't say i don't like MC... but his statements always seem a bit futile and shallow minded (at least for me). I get his point about the need for learning english. But does it rly have to do anything with being a progamer? Well ofc it does, but for a much lesser extent than any other rly important thing means for a person who makes money playing a game. I was hyped about the "progamer mindset" headline. And what did i get? MC bragging about his self improvement in english, which is by the way not so great. His speculations about ZvT seem fair, but i don't rly think that all of the SC2 real problems lay in certain match ups. And even if blizzard actually imrpoves it, that won't change a lot.
MC is like all the best pro-gamers or athletes, he knows he is an entertainer and a player. The best pro-gamers are both. Gubby in his day was both and entertainer and player. Dendi and Puppy in Dota 2 are both as well and know how to be endearing to both the crowd. They are well spoken, know how to have fun and are also very very good at the game. Even Innovation knows that he entertains us with his skill at the game and tries to say interesting things in interviews and tries to avoid the basic answers. I loved his comment about wanting a “I've always wanted a giant, star-shaped, glass trophy,” which is one of the best statements I have heard out of a high level Korean player in a while.
We need more players like Innovation, MC, Polt, DRG and Parting, who are willing to mix it up for the fans and make the game fun. It only adds to the game and our enjoyment of it and we lose nothing. They don't need speak English to have fun and not take everything so seriously.
On September 04 2013 00:46 insitelol wrote: I can't say i don't like MC... but his statements always seem a bit futile and shallow minded (at least for me). I get his point about the need for learning english. But does it rly have to do anything with being a progamer? Well ofc it does, but for a much lesser extent than any other rly important thing means for a person who makes money playing a game. I was hyped about the "progamer mindset" headline. And what did i get? MC bragging about his self improvement in english, which is by the way not so great. His speculations about ZvT seem fair, but i don't rly think that all of the SC2 real problems lay in certain match ups. And even if blizzard actually imrpoves it, that won't change a lot.
I Feel like his intentions are there, and his heart is in the right place, but he got a little sidetracked and started talking about him. I agree it would be nice if some korean progamers would learn english but out of all the problems this game has, that one is maybe not the one we need to be focusing on.
Trying to make the most competitive game, using advanced statistic, carefully designed units, create specific for specific roles. Putting balance in top priority as design, viability comes 2nd.
Then you get SC2 design. Things like, Ghost snipe change only so it is only strong to snipe spellcaster, all those hard counter things.
In BW, let my imagination run, I can imagine the way they come up terran army design, mech for example. Cheap and effective scout unit ->Vulture coupled Spider mine to make unit more interesting and stretegic?
Then comes the core unit ->Siege tank, High damage &Range, with drawback such as no air attack and require siege + friendly fire, slow rate of fire and minimum range
Then comes the ultimate mech army, the robot Goliath . Require Armory, with good anti air to compliment siege tank? As ultimate unit of terran mech, it has ground twin cannon doing respectable dmg. 12 dmg with good rate of fire. Better than unstim marine.
I feel Broodwar design is to design a viable looking army, with each unit able to support one another with specific role to compliment one another. Balance is important, but is not the core of the design.
Then u get a very well designed superiority fighter such as wraith equipped with air - ground weapon in case they need to fire against land unit. With cloak as upgrade to make it even more stretegy.
Science vessal too, with 1 defensive ability, and 2 offensive to deal with respective race.
U get good design BW.
NOW! Tadadadadada
SC2, I feel they design the unit too specifically, mainly for balance reason
u see the replacement of wraith (Viking) need to transform in order to deal with land unit, long time delay of transformation time. Slow speed (as superiority fighter), no cloak. Unable to deal with future threat like phoenix.
u see replacement of vulture (Hellbat) No more mines.. (Is it more effective than vulture? I am not sure...)
u see replacement of goliath, Thor. I feel Goliath is so much needed & important for future war to come, but they delete away maybe for balance.
You see some obvious hardcounter, ghost snipe ability talor to SNIPE, only spellcaster etc..
U dont see a future generation army, u see human playing god, trying to step in everytime to change the ecosystem in order to create the perfect ecosystem.
I feel BW is like a natural ecosystem, where everything blends in perfectly. Let nature fix itself.
Balace aside it's just stupidly fucking boring that Zerg can't harass at all. Harass is the most entertaining thing that goes in a game imo and completely ruining that for zerg just makes for boring games. Even if it was balanced to just sit and turtle it's not the games I want to watch.
On September 04 2013 01:18 DrPandaPhD wrote: Balace aside it's just stupidly fucking boring that Zerg can't harass at all. Harass is the most entertaining thing that goes in a game imo and completely ruining that for zerg just makes for boring games. Even if it was balanced to just sit and turtle it's not the games I want to watch.
Exactly, harassment so quickly becomes all-in its just not worth doing. Better to just sit back and macro so you can all-in with bigger units!
It is what it is..SC2 design is the major problem IMO, unfortunately it feels too big to do something about it other than balance tweeks. Protoss design IMO is the worst, but TvZ is a really bad matchup atm.
IMO MC hit the nail write on the head with his post, but I don't think they are very simple fixes...
On September 04 2013 01:00 XiaoJoyce- wrote: I think, Blizzard is trying too hard?
Trying to make the most competitive game, using advanced statistic, carefully designed units, create specific for specific roles. Putting balance in top priority as design, viability comes 2nd.
Then you get SC2 design. Things like, Ghost snipe change only so it is only strong to snipe spellcaster, all those hard counter things.
In BW, let my imagination run, I can imagine the way they come up terran army design, mech for example. Cheap and effective scout unit ->Vulture coupled Spider mine to make unit more interesting and stretegic?
Then comes the core unit ->Siege tank, High damage &Range, with drawback such as no air attack and require siege + friendly fire, slow rate of fire and minimum range
Then comes the ultimate mech army, the robot Goliath . Require Armory, with good anti air to compliment siege tank? As ultimate unit of terran mech, it has ground twin cannon doing respectable dmg. 12 dmg with good rate of fire. Better than unstim marine.
I feel Broodwar design is to design a viable looking army, with each unit able to support one another with specific role to compliment one another. Balance is important, but is not the core of the design.
Then u get a very well designed superiority fighter such as wraith equipped with air - ground weapon in case they need to fire against land unit. With cloak as upgrade to make it even more stretegy.
Science vessal too, with 1 defensive ability, and 2 offensive to deal with respective race.
U get good design BW.
NOW! Tadadadadada
SC2, I feel they design the unit too specifically, mainly for balance reason
u see the replacement of wraith (Viking) need to transform in order to deal with land unit, long time delay of transformation time. Slow speed (as superiority fighter), no cloak. Unable to deal with future threat like phoenix.
u see replacement of vulture (Hellbat) No more mines.. (Is it more effective than vulture? I am not sure...)
u see replacement of goliath, Thor. I feel Goliath is so much needed & important for future war to come, but they delete away maybe for balance.
You see some obvious hardcounter, ghost snipe ability talor to SNIPE, only spellcaster etc..
U dont see a future generation army, u see human playing god, trying to step in everytime to change the ecosystem in order to create the perfect ecosystem.
I feel BW is like a natural ecosystem, where everything blends in perfectly. Let nature fix itself.
I feel SC2 is so man made it lost all its beauty.
Let things play out and figure themselves out? Yeah, we've heard that philosophy before and I don't know how carefully designed these units were in the first place. Takes me back to that interview where Dustin was talking about the 'coolness' factor and then trying to make it fit into the game. I never was too keen on a lot of the units in the first place. I had a lot of questions about how viable a lot of them would be instead of acting as hard counters.
On September 04 2013 01:00 XiaoJoyce- wrote: I think, Blizzard is trying too hard?
Trying to make the most competitive game, using advanced statistic, carefully designed units, create specific for specific roles. Putting balance in top priority as design, viability comes 2nd.
Then you get SC2 design. Things like, Ghost snipe change only so it is only strong to snipe spellcaster, all those hard counter things.
In BW, let my imagination run, I can imagine the way they come up terran army design, mech for example. Cheap and effective scout unit ->Vulture coupled Spider mine to make unit more interesting and stretegic?
Then comes the core unit ->Siege tank, High damage &Range, with drawback such as no air attack and require siege + friendly fire, slow rate of fire and minimum range
Then comes the ultimate mech army, the robot Goliath . Require Armory, with good anti air to compliment siege tank? As ultimate unit of terran mech, it has ground twin cannon doing respectable dmg. 12 dmg with good rate of fire. Better than unstim marine.
I feel Broodwar design is to design a viable looking army, with each unit able to support one another with specific role to compliment one another. Balance is important, but is not the core of the design.
Then u get a very well designed superiority fighter such as wraith equipped with air - ground weapon in case they need to fire against land unit. With cloak as upgrade to make it even more stretegy.
Science vessal too, with 1 defensive ability, and 2 offensive to deal with respective race.
U get good design BW.
NOW! Tadadadadada
SC2, I feel they design the unit too specifically, mainly for balance reason
u see the replacement of wraith (Viking) need to transform in order to deal with land unit, long time delay of transformation time. Slow speed (as superiority fighter), no cloak. Unable to deal with future threat like phoenix.
u see replacement of vulture (Hellbat) No more mines.. (Is it more effective than vulture? I am not sure...)
u see replacement of goliath, Thor. I feel Goliath is so much needed & important for future war to come, but they delete away maybe for balance.
You see some obvious hardcounter, ghost snipe ability talor to SNIPE, only spellcaster etc..
U dont see a future generation army, u see human playing god, trying to step in everytime to change the ecosystem in order to create the perfect ecosystem.
I feel BW is like a natural ecosystem, where everything blends in perfectly. Let nature fix itself.
I feel SC2 is so man made it lost all its beauty.
Let things play out and figure themselves out? Yeah, we've heard that philosophy before and I don't know how carefully designed these units were in the first place. Takes me back to that interview where Dustin was talking about the 'coolness' factor and then trying to make it fit into the game. I never was too keen on a lot of the units in the first place. I had a lot of questions about how viable a lot of them would be instead of acting as hard counters.
Exactly, forced synergy is forced.
Too many decisions are based on shallow reasoning, such as BC damage nerf and indirect stacking nerf. Many nerfs were based on emotional responses "fans demand xxx", rather than the what the game/lore needs.
HotS is much much better with DK at the helm, we lost so much good people T_T It is so sad to a fan base shrink by NINETY PERCENT under 3 years.
Stable game = boring game. In BW, any unit comp. could become the hero of the day, turning the tide of the game, without being too coin flippy, see Dark reign, spend 20min building an army of tanks to lose them all under 20 sec.
On September 04 2013 01:00 XiaoJoyce- wrote: I think, Blizzard is trying too hard?
Trying to make the most competitive game, using advanced statistic, carefully designed units, create specific for specific roles. Putting balance in top priority as design, viability comes 2nd.
Then you get SC2 design. Things like, Ghost snipe change only so it is only strong to snipe spellcaster, all those hard counter things.
In BW, let my imagination run, I can imagine the way they come up terran army design, mech for example. Cheap and effective scout unit ->Vulture coupled Spider mine to make unit more interesting and stretegic?
Then comes the core unit ->Siege tank, High damage &Range, with drawback such as no air attack and require siege + friendly fire, slow rate of fire and minimum range
Then comes the ultimate mech army, the robot Goliath . Require Armory, with good anti air to compliment siege tank? As ultimate unit of terran mech, it has ground twin cannon doing respectable dmg. 12 dmg with good rate of fire. Better than unstim marine.
I feel Broodwar design is to design a viable looking army, with each unit able to support one another with specific role to compliment one another. Balance is important, but is not the core of the design.
Then u get a very well designed superiority fighter such as wraith equipped with air - ground weapon in case they need to fire against land unit. With cloak as upgrade to make it even more stretegy.
Science vessal too, with 1 defensive ability, and 2 offensive to deal with respective race.
U get good design BW.
NOW! Tadadadadada
SC2, I feel they design the unit too specifically, mainly for balance reason
u see the replacement of wraith (Viking) need to transform in order to deal with land unit, long time delay of transformation time. Slow speed (as superiority fighter), no cloak. Unable to deal with future threat like phoenix.
u see replacement of vulture (Hellbat) No more mines.. (Is it more effective than vulture? I am not sure...)
u see replacement of goliath, Thor. I feel Goliath is so much needed & important for future war to come, but they delete away maybe for balance.
You see some obvious hardcounter, ghost snipe ability talor to SNIPE, only spellcaster etc..
U dont see a future generation army, u see human playing god, trying to step in everytime to change the ecosystem in order to create the perfect ecosystem.
I feel BW is like a natural ecosystem, where everything blends in perfectly. Let nature fix itself.
I feel SC2 is so man made it lost all its beauty.
hmm quite valid. It does feel like they thought about specific scenarios which is why you got the hard counter idea with the immortals etc... Let's hope LoTV helpd with whatever ails SCII.
On September 04 2013 01:00 XiaoJoyce- wrote: I think, Blizzard is trying too hard?
Trying to make the most competitive game, using advanced statistic, carefully designed units, create specific for specific roles. Putting balance in top priority as design, viability comes 2nd.
Then you get SC2 design. Things like, Ghost snipe change only so it is only strong to snipe spellcaster, all those hard counter things.
In BW, let my imagination run, I can imagine the way they come up terran army design, mech for example. Cheap and effective scout unit ->Vulture coupled Spider mine to make unit more interesting and stretegic?
Then comes the core unit ->Siege tank, High damage &Range, with drawback such as no air attack and require siege + friendly fire, slow rate of fire and minimum range
Then comes the ultimate mech army, the robot Goliath . Require Armory, with good anti air to compliment siege tank? As ultimate unit of terran mech, it has ground twin cannon doing respectable dmg. 12 dmg with good rate of fire. Better than unstim marine.
I feel Broodwar design is to design a viable looking army, with each unit able to support one another with specific role to compliment one another. Balance is important, but is not the core of the design.
Then u get a very well designed superiority fighter such as wraith equipped with air - ground weapon in case they need to fire against land unit. With cloak as upgrade to make it even more stretegy.
Science vessal too, with 1 defensive ability, and 2 offensive to deal with respective race.
U get good design BW.
NOW! Tadadadadada
SC2, I feel they design the unit too specifically, mainly for balance reason
u see the replacement of wraith (Viking) need to transform in order to deal with land unit, long time delay of transformation time. Slow speed (as superiority fighter), no cloak. Unable to deal with future threat like phoenix.
u see replacement of vulture (Hellbat) No more mines.. (Is it more effective than vulture? I am not sure...)
u see replacement of goliath, Thor. I feel Goliath is so much needed & important for future war to come, but they delete away maybe for balance.
You see some obvious hardcounter, ghost snipe ability talor to SNIPE, only spellcaster etc..
U dont see a future generation army, u see human playing god, trying to step in everytime to change the ecosystem in order to create the perfect ecosystem.
I feel BW is like a natural ecosystem, where everything blends in perfectly. Let nature fix itself.
I feel SC2 is so man made it lost all its beauty.
hmm quite valid. It does feel like they thought about specific scenarios which is why you got the hard counter idea with the immortals etc... Let's hope LoTV helpd with whatever ails SCII.
MvC2 vs SF4 anyone?
I agree to a bit of this. I think in SC2, every unit is designed in a vacuum to fill a role and look cool. It's like multiple people all had their own ideas for units. That first gameplay trailer from 2006 sticks in my mind as a followup to BW.
Siege tanks were very scary in SCBW. Protoss feels like half the units have an answer to 'units like siege tanks'. Zealots can charge in, Stalkers can blink in, Phoenixes can lift, Immortals can absorb the shot. Yeah, as a Protoss it's kinda cool that you can 'build an answer to siege tanks', but once the metagame settles, it means P can go a strong composition on his own and be immune to siege tanks because so many units naturally answer them.
In BW, it was fun that there was no easy answer to a siege tank, but it still had glaring weaknesses you could exploit.
I like SC2 a lot better just because it's so much easier to play, but I feel like you either build a composition that has no weakness and no answer (4M vs Z on both sides), or you spend the whole matchup trying to answer various threats of the opponent's. PvT repeats the same marine < stalker < stim < colossus < viking < blink < big bio ball < storm < ghost pretty much every round, unless P goes for some goofy proxy or tech rush, or one side is able to harass enough damage to force a low-tech game.
On September 04 2013 01:00 XiaoJoyce- wrote: I think, Blizzard is trying too hard?
Trying to make the most competitive game, using advanced statistic, carefully designed units, create specific for specific roles. Putting balance in top priority as design, viability comes 2nd.
Then you get SC2 design. Things like, Ghost snipe change only so it is only strong to snipe spellcaster, all those hard counter things.
In BW, let my imagination run, I can imagine the way they come up terran army design, mech for example. Cheap and effective scout unit ->Vulture coupled Spider mine to make unit more interesting and stretegic?
Then comes the core unit ->Siege tank, High damage &Range, with drawback such as no air attack and require siege + friendly fire, slow rate of fire and minimum range
Then comes the ultimate mech army, the robot Goliath . Require Armory, with good anti air to compliment siege tank? As ultimate unit of terran mech, it has ground twin cannon doing respectable dmg. 12 dmg with good rate of fire. Better than unstim marine.
I feel Broodwar design is to design a viable looking army, with each unit able to support one another with specific role to compliment one another. Balance is important, but is not the core of the design.
Then u get a very well designed superiority fighter such as wraith equipped with air - ground weapon in case they need to fire against land unit. With cloak as upgrade to make it even more stretegy.
Science vessal too, with 1 defensive ability, and 2 offensive to deal with respective race.
U get good design BW.
NOW! Tadadadadada
SC2, I feel they design the unit too specifically, mainly for balance reason
u see the replacement of wraith (Viking) need to transform in order to deal with land unit, long time delay of transformation time. Slow speed (as superiority fighter), no cloak. Unable to deal with future threat like phoenix.
u see replacement of vulture (Hellbat) No more mines.. (Is it more effective than vulture? I am not sure...)
u see replacement of goliath, Thor. I feel Goliath is so much needed & important for future war to come, but they delete away maybe for balance.
You see some obvious hardcounter, ghost snipe ability talor to SNIPE, only spellcaster etc..
U dont see a future generation army, u see human playing god, trying to step in everytime to change the ecosystem in order to create the perfect ecosystem.
I feel BW is like a natural ecosystem, where everything blends in perfectly. Let nature fix itself.
I feel SC2 is so man made it lost all its beauty.
hmm quite valid. It does feel like they thought about specific scenarios which is why you got the hard counter idea with the immortals etc... Let's hope LoTV helpd with whatever ails SCII.
MvC2 vs SF4 anyone?
I agree to a bit of this. I think in SC2, every unit is designed in a vacuum to fill a role and look cool. It's like multiple people all had their own ideas for units. That first gameplay trailer from 2006 sticks in my mind as a followup to BW.
Siege tanks were very scary in SCBW. Protoss feels like half the units have an answer to 'units like siege tanks'. Zealots can charge in, Stalkers can blink in, Phoenixes can lift, Immortals can absorb the shot. Yeah, as a Protoss it's kinda cool that you can 'build an answer to siege tanks', but once the metagame settles, it means P can go a strong composition on his own and be immune to siege tanks because so many units naturally answer them.
In BW, it was fun that there was no easy answer to a siege tank, but it still had glaring weaknesses you could exploit.
I like SC2 a lot better just because it's so much easier to play, but I feel like you either build a composition that has no weakness and no answer (4M vs Z on both sides), or you spend the whole matchup trying to answer various threats of the opponent's. PvT repeats the same marine < stalker < stim < colossus < viking < blink < big bio ball < storm < ghost pretty much every round, unless P goes for some goofy proxy or tech rush, or one side is able to harass enough damage to force a low-tech game.
ya agree. Siege tanks in BW were brutal to deal with but then so were storms, reavers, arbiters, defilers, etc... It generates tension and then excitement as well because you wonder how you'll break them/it etc.... Don't forget zealot drops and using them to drag mines into tanks which negates their large advantage and has a big wow factor. Blizzard focused too much on hard counter imo and they should do easier and loosen things up in LoTV. SCII is easier to play but honestly, once you play enough BW, the macro isn't much of an issue. I mostly have issues making sure I don't get supply blocked lol
On September 04 2013 01:00 XiaoJoyce- wrote: I think, Blizzard is trying too hard?
Trying to make the most competitive game, using advanced statistic, carefully designed units, create specific for specific roles. Putting balance in top priority as design, viability comes 2nd.
Then you get SC2 design. Things like, Ghost snipe change only so it is only strong to snipe spellcaster, all those hard counter things.
In BW, let my imagination run, I can imagine the way they come up terran army design, mech for example. Cheap and effective scout unit ->Vulture coupled Spider mine to make unit more interesting and stretegic?
Then comes the core unit ->Siege tank, High damage &Range, with drawback such as no air attack and require siege + friendly fire, slow rate of fire and minimum range
Then comes the ultimate mech army, the robot Goliath . Require Armory, with good anti air to compliment siege tank? As ultimate unit of terran mech, it has ground twin cannon doing respectable dmg. 12 dmg with good rate of fire. Better than unstim marine.
I feel Broodwar design is to design a viable looking army, with each unit able to support one another with specific role to compliment one another. Balance is important, but is not the core of the design.
Then u get a very well designed superiority fighter such as wraith equipped with air - ground weapon in case they need to fire against land unit. With cloak as upgrade to make it even more stretegy.
Science vessal too, with 1 defensive ability, and 2 offensive to deal with respective race.
U get good design BW.
NOW! Tadadadadada
SC2, I feel they design the unit too specifically, mainly for balance reason
u see the replacement of wraith (Viking) need to transform in order to deal with land unit, long time delay of transformation time. Slow speed (as superiority fighter), no cloak. Unable to deal with future threat like phoenix.
u see replacement of vulture (Hellbat) No more mines.. (Is it more effective than vulture? I am not sure...)
u see replacement of goliath, Thor. I feel Goliath is so much needed & important for future war to come, but they delete away maybe for balance.
You see some obvious hardcounter, ghost snipe ability talor to SNIPE, only spellcaster etc..
U dont see a future generation army, u see human playing god, trying to step in everytime to change the ecosystem in order to create the perfect ecosystem.
I feel BW is like a natural ecosystem, where everything blends in perfectly. Let nature fix itself.
I feel SC2 is so man made it lost all its beauty.
Somehow your post reminded me of this scene(skip to 2:40). MC is the Neo of SC2?
On September 04 2013 04:03 grassHAT wrote: This is pretty huge for a pro to be making public statements like this. I think Blizzard will take this more seriously now.
I they didn´t take when Nazgul and Mr Chae said a lot on TI3, Flash said on one interview, Jangbi when going out, etc, etc, etc! Well, one can hope.
You are probably right but I am a casual player that doesn't follow the Korean scene too much so I am guessing this will reach more people and hopefully have a greater impact.
On September 04 2013 04:03 grassHAT wrote: This is pretty huge for a pro to be making public statements like this. I think Blizzard will take this more seriously now.
I they didn´t take when Nazgul and Mr Chae said a lot on TI3, Flash said on one interview, Jangbi when going out, etc, etc, etc! Well, one can hope.
Well, they cant ignore a mass exodus in both viewership and professional players from SC2 to other games like Dota 2 , League etc. I dont like to see the game in this state Blizzard better do something or let the community create mods/units with that art tool they released recently :D
On September 04 2013 04:03 grassHAT wrote: This is pretty huge for a pro to be making public statements like this. I think Blizzard will take this more seriously now.
Certainly they took it seriously before, they just don't have any good ideas. Because fans are obsessed with balances, so they are usually obsessed with balance patches, rather than some other fundamental parts of the game, which will affect all races.
Blizzard, you are the designer, you should know better than fans, balance is not the big problem in this game.
EPT
. Require Armory, with good anti air to compliment siege tank? As ultimate unit of terran mech, it has ground twin cannon doing respectable dmg. 12 dmg with good rate of fire. 
Blizzard better do something or let the community create mods/units with that art tool they released recently :D
