In TvZ Lets say zerg goes for a ling/baneling swarm host composition.
The free locusts can trigger and kill mines and then with the locust pushing forward zerg can go for flanks on the terran army with ling/baneling .As for drops ling/banelings with queens and static defense should be plenty, just accept that medivacs can get away until zerg gets vipers and/or air units later on.
The mines for terran are no longer worth building they are forced to get tanks to deal with the locusts, they also get some ravens for detection. Point defense does work against locusts, burrowed swarm hosts can not out run seeker missiles.
Zerg adds in vipers they can blinding cloud/abduct the tanks which then allows the locusts and ling/baneling to kill everything. Can also pull medivacs into spores. Nydus worms might be a good option to provide the swarm hosts with a quick fall back route.
Terran gets vikings and/or ghosts to protect the tanks versus the vipers, maybe also gets some banshees to pick off swarm hosts, nukes are even a possibility.
Zerg has then forced terran into tank/viking/raven and carries of a switch into mass muta/corrupter which either destroys the terran air army leaving the tanks undefended or can run circles around it taking out terran bases. . Terran either has to rely on winning the air battle, get some thors or try to get back to a heavy marine/mine army. Zerg has the option of then getting broodlords
It can go round again until one side has to tap out.
That would be an extremely entertaining game, with lots of potential for either player to outhink/outplay each other. It feels like that would the kind of game that sc2 should or could be.
It could be that such a game is possible it just takes a player to show it at a tournament. Starcraft needs the players that are going to innovate new strategies and tactics and constantly push the meta game(for lack of a better phrase).
If it really is not possible maybe swarm host/locusts could be adjusted so that swarm host compositions are good enough against marine/mine that it forces terran into a different composition?
Thinking of other matchups, the existence of vikings does not stop protoss getting colossus, the existence of the tempest does not mean zerg need to stop getting broodlords, just that they need a follow up. Something like ling/hydra/viper/corrupter into broodlords versus protoss. There will be a big engagement zerg can likely kill everything on the ground, while protoss is left with just tempests, zerg could flood with lings, the tempests can do nothing about it. Or something like zealot/archon and all the air units in pvt, We could keep going, imagining scenarios and it shows the potential of starcraft. Of course some of it shows but it happens slowly and there is potential for more.
On September 03 2013 22:52 Startyr wrote: In TvZ Lets say zerg goes for a ling/baneling swarm host composition.
The free locusts can trigger and kill mines and then with the locust pushing forward zerg can go for flanks on the terran army with ling/baneling .As for drops ling/banelings with queens and static defense should be plenty, just accept that medivacs can get away until zerg gets vipers and/or air units later on.
The mines for terran are no longer worth building they are forced to get tanks to deal with the locusts, they also get some ravens for detection. Point defense does work against locusts, burrowed swarm hosts can not out run seeker missiles.
Zerg adds in vipers they can blinding cloud/abduct the tanks which then allows the locusts and ling/baneling to kill everything. Can also pull medivacs into spores. Nydus worms might be a good option to provide the swarm hosts with a quick fall back route.
Terran gets vikings and/or ghosts to protect the tanks versus the vipers, maybe also gets some banshees to pick off swarm hosts, nukes are even a possibility.
Zerg has then forced terran into tank/viking/raven and carries of a switch into mass muta/corrupter which either destroys the terran air army leaving the tanks undefended or can run circles around it taking out terran bases. . Terran either has to rely on winning the air battle, get some thors or try to get back to a heavy marine/mine army. Zerg has the option of then getting broodlords
It can go round again until one side has to tap out.
That would be an extremely entertaining game, with lots of potential for either player to outhink/outplay each other. It feels like that would the kind of game that sc2 should or could be.
It could be that such a game is possible it just takes a player to show it at a tournament. Starcraft needs the players that are going to innovate new strategies and tactics and constantly push the meta game(for lack of a better phrase).
If it really is not possible maybe swarm host/locusts could be adjusted so that swarm host compositions are good enough against marine/mine that it forces terran into a different composition?
Thinking of other matchups, the existence of vikings does not stop protoss getting colossus, the existence of the tempest does not mean zerg need to stop getting broodlords, just that they need a follow up. Something like ling/hydra/viper/corrupter into broodlords versus protoss. There will be a big engagement zerg can likely kill everything on the ground, while protoss is left with just tempests, zerg could flood with lings, the tempests can do nothing about it. Or something like zealot/archon and all the air units in pvt, We could keep going, imagining scenarios and it shows the potential of starcraft. Of course some of it shows but it happens slowly and there is potential for more.
It's not viable, because in combat counters to swarm hosts are marine/medivac (stomps swarm hosts very hard supply for supply and can be kited in way that locusts never touch them) and the counter to swarm host play is drops. So basically exactly the things that Terran is mainly doing (aside from a few stray mines).
On September 03 2013 22:41 iloveav wrote: Problem is that in BW executing a build effectivly was slightly harder than in SC2, so a good player rearly lost to a lower skill level. In sc2, we see many upsets based on some weird timings or build orders (anyone remmber the first time terrans used 1/1/1 builds?).
Its simply not so rewarding to the player as bw was. I remmber when i started to play sc2 when it came out and noone knew 2v2 or 3v3 builds.
I was fun, but very soon we got the 4 gate baneling from 2v2 as a standard and the ling baneling with DT on 3v3. It simply became .
I belive thet two factors make broodwar a more interesting long term game: 1. Mechanicly the game is more demanding, so there is more room for error/unexpected situations. 2. Units dont hard counter each other in almost any case.
With those two things, a build-order-win can be reversed easier than in sc2.
One more important factor is that the game was much deeper. There were spells and units that were hard to use and incorporate in your play. But this gave the game resources that took many years for the best players in the world to explore. In some of the best games of Brood war we got to see medic blinding, queens with ensnare/broodling, clutch scouts, science vessels in tvt to just mention a few examples. People were only beginning to find out how to use queens in zvt at the end of BW - it was a trend that soulkey had started.
In sc2 I don't see any change in the metagame despite the game being only a couple of months old (hots). The only changes are from nerfs left and right.
There are a few units in sc2 that strike me as interesting though: viper and swarmhost come to mind.
On September 03 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote: The tier discussion is rather idiotic anyway; people call 3/3 Marines "tier1" while you can't have 3/3 before 17', i. e. long after a Battlecruiser theoretically obtainable as early as 7'30. To me it makes no sense to call a 3/3 Zergling with Adrenal Glands or a 3-3-3 Zealot with Charge "tier1" considering the amount of tech/time invested in them, even if they still come from the elementary military building.
You can get a BC by 7:30? Time to try out proxy BC's.
On September 03 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote: The tier discussion is rather idiotic anyway; people call 3/3 Marines "tier1" while you can't have 3/3 before 17', i. e. long after a Battlecruiser theoretically obtainable as early as 7'30. To me it makes no sense to call a 3/3 Zergling with Adrenal Glands or a 3-3-3 Zealot with Charge "tier1" considering the amount of tech/time invested in them, even if they still come from the elementary military building.
You can get a BC by 7:30? Time to try out proxy BC's.
On September 03 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote: The tier discussion is rather idiotic anyway; people call 3/3 Marines "tier1" while you can't have 3/3 before 17', i. e. long after a Battlecruiser theoretically obtainable as early as 7'30. To me it makes no sense to call a 3/3 Zergling with Adrenal Glands or a 3-3-3 Zealot with Charge "tier1" considering the amount of tech/time invested in them, even if they still come from the elementary military building.
You can get a BC by 7:30? Time to try out proxy BC's.
Your name makes this post extra amusing.
lol totally .. tell us if BC's shitty dps worked when you proxied it
On September 03 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote: The tier discussion is rather idiotic anyway; people call 3/3 Marines "tier1" while you can't have 3/3 before 17', i. e. long after a Battlecruiser theoretically obtainable as early as 7'30. To me it makes no sense to call a 3/3 Zergling with Adrenal Glands or a 3-3-3 Zealot with Charge "tier1" considering the amount of tech/time invested in them, even if they still come from the elementary military building.
You can get a BC by 7:30? Time to try out proxy BC's.
Your name makes this post extra amusing.
lol totally .. tell us if BC's shitty dps worked when you proxied it
On September 03 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote: The tier discussion is rather idiotic anyway; people call 3/3 Marines "tier1" while you can't have 3/3 before 17', i. e. long after a Battlecruiser theoretically obtainable as early as 7'30. To me it makes no sense to call a 3/3 Zergling with Adrenal Glands or a 3-3-3 Zealot with Charge "tier1" considering the amount of tech/time invested in them, even if they still come from the elementary military building.
You can get a BC by 7:30? Time to try out proxy BC's.
Your name makes this post extra amusing.
lol totally .. tell us if BC's shitty dps worked when you proxied it
Am I the only one who things BCs range is way to short for the crap DPS it does? I mean, its a sweet unit if you get way to many of them, but that because they have way to many hitpoints, not because they are dumping DPS on your head.
On September 03 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote: The tier discussion is rather idiotic anyway; people call 3/3 Marines "tier1" while you can't have 3/3 before 17', i. e. long after a Battlecruiser theoretically obtainable as early as 7'30. To me it makes no sense to call a 3/3 Zergling with Adrenal Glands or a 3-3-3 Zealot with Charge "tier1" considering the amount of tech/time invested in them, even if they still come from the elementary military building.
You can get a BC by 7:30? Time to try out proxy BC's.
Your name makes this post extra amusing.
lol totally .. tell us if BC's shitty dps worked when you proxied it
Am I the only one who things BCs range is way to short for the crap DPS it does? I mean, its a sweet unit if you get way to many of them, but that because they have way to many hitpoints, not because they are dumping DPS on your head.
And considering that their attack speed makes 'em overkill all the time+the random attack delay that even further lowers their DPS.... Buff BC pl0x!
On September 03 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote: The tier discussion is rather idiotic anyway; people call 3/3 Marines "tier1" while you can't have 3/3 before 17', i. e. long after a Battlecruiser theoretically obtainable as early as 7'30. To me it makes no sense to call a 3/3 Zergling with Adrenal Glands or a 3-3-3 Zealot with Charge "tier1" considering the amount of tech/time invested in them, even if they still come from the elementary military building.
You can get a BC by 7:30? Time to try out proxy BC's.
Your name makes this post extra amusing.
lol totally .. tell us if BC's shitty dps worked when you proxied it
Am I the only one who things BCs range is way to short for the crap DPS it does? I mean, its a sweet unit if you get way to many of them, but that because they have way to many hitpoints, not because they are dumping DPS on your head.
Terran tech is just way to... fast. To balance the same unit for the 20th minute and the 8th is pretty bad. Splash units have it easier in that respect since their dmg effectively scales with your opponents army.
On September 03 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote: The tier discussion is rather idiotic anyway; people call 3/3 Marines "tier1" while you can't have 3/3 before 17', i. e. long after a Battlecruiser theoretically obtainable as early as 7'30. To me it makes no sense to call a 3/3 Zergling with Adrenal Glands or a 3-3-3 Zealot with Charge "tier1" considering the amount of tech/time invested in them, even if they still come from the elementary military building.
You can get a BC by 7:30? Time to try out proxy BC's.
Your name makes this post extra amusing.
lol totally .. tell us if BC's shitty dps worked when you proxied it
Am I the only one who things BCs range is way to short for the crap DPS it does? I mean, its a sweet unit if you get way to many of them, but that because they have way to many hitpoints, not because they are dumping DPS on your head.
Thing is, BCs can attack air and ground and have yamato and fly and have the most armor and HP of any unit in the game. And neither their dps nor range is really bad. It's just that the BC is not really an addition to a composition you play, but rather an alternative main unit of a composition that you hardly ever get to. Therefore transitions into them are very hard, as they don't really help you at all initially.
On September 03 2013 19:02 DinoToss wrote: MC voiced an opinion of many, many people who some were opressed by saying it ("elitist jerks"), now that MC said that, i hope it will be viable view to hold. Ye the linearity of SC2 makes you predict and expect, the constant trade-of in BW matches makes you wonder what will happen.
Nothing new, besides the fact it was one of the most prominent SC2 player who spoke this, i appreciate it and I see MC in the new light. And the bit about mentioning JangBi is also a big, big plus. Im a fan.
Before i used to look at him as a guy in spotlight doing his thing. But i appreciate when gamers and/or athletes have their own voice and their own thoughts, it makes them bigger than what they appear to be.
I think lots of pros have their own thoughts but don't want to voice it. Especially after what happened to destiny.
What happened to him?
It didn't went well for him in front of community:
On September 03 2013 19:02 DinoToss wrote: MC voiced an opinion of many, many people who some were opressed by saying it ("elitist jerks"), now that MC said that, i hope it will be viable view to hold. Ye the linearity of SC2 makes you predict and expect, the constant trade-of in BW matches makes you wonder what will happen.
Nothing new, besides the fact it was one of the most prominent SC2 player who spoke this, i appreciate it and I see MC in the new light. And the bit about mentioning JangBi is also a big, big plus. Im a fan.
Before i used to look at him as a guy in spotlight doing his thing. But i appreciate when gamers and/or athletes have their own voice and their own thoughts, it makes them bigger than what they appear to be.
I think lots of pros have their own thoughts but don't want to voice it. Especially after what happened to destiny.
I don't think it's really fair to compare the player with the highest winnings in SC2, who has won two GSL championships and other tournaments as well, and is uncontested as one of the best players of SC2 of all time, to someone like Destiny who's basically a streamer/entertainer who has been involved in numerous dramas/dumb incidents and started the whole "Sc2 is dying" bandwagon with an overwhelming amount of negativity. Especially considering MC has been a lot more constructive in the way that he expressed his opinion, and that goes a long way.
Maybe Destiny got own ways of saying certain things (he got the personality), but admit it, it wasn't totally untrue what he said. Eventhough he said SC2 is dying, which is definitely exageration, he provided reasonings and solutions. Most of which was agreed by community. But I agree, he was more harm than use for the community.
Hahahahaha o God. The irony. And 1 year later... It would be very funny to make a SOTG now with this guys and show this same video to them.
On September 03 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote: The tier discussion is rather idiotic anyway; people call 3/3 Marines "tier1" while you can't have 3/3 before 17', i. e. long after a Battlecruiser theoretically obtainable as early as 7'30. To me it makes no sense to call a 3/3 Zergling with Adrenal Glands or a 3-3-3 Zealot with Charge "tier1" considering the amount of tech/time invested in them, even if they still come from the elementary military building.
You can get a BC by 7:30? Time to try out proxy BC's.
Your name makes this post extra amusing.
lol totally .. tell us if BC's shitty dps worked when you proxied it
Am I the only one who things BCs range is way to short for the crap DPS it does? I mean, its a sweet unit if you get way to many of them, but that because they have way to many hitpoints, not because they are dumping DPS on your head.
Thing is, BCs can attack air and ground and have yamato and fly and have the most armor and HP of any unit in the game. And neither their dps nor range is really bad. It's just that the BC is not really an addition to a composition you play, but rather an alternative main unit of a composition that you hardly ever get to. Therefore transitions into them are very hard, as they don't really help you at all initially.
Yeah, they need to get them to more of a "support" role, rather than a main unit. They are totally awesome and would look sweet over a army of marines. I would love to see them more, but not in the BC blob we see all the time that is super boring to watch.
On September 03 2013 22:52 Startyr wrote: In TvZ Lets say zerg goes for a ling/baneling swarm host composition.
The free locusts can trigger and kill mines and then with the locust pushing forward zerg can go for flanks on the terran army with ling/baneling .As for drops ling/banelings with queens and static defense should be plenty, just accept that medivacs can get away until zerg gets vipers and/or air units later on.
You cant cover every single base with spore, spine and queens, and medivac will just boost over them anyway, drop, and stim-kill everything on the ground
That's the core problem of TvZ, if zerg dont go muta, then he die, if he go muta, biomines destroy him.
On September 03 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote: The tier discussion is rather idiotic anyway; people call 3/3 Marines "tier1" while you can't have 3/3 before 17', i. e. long after a Battlecruiser theoretically obtainable as early as 7'30. To me it makes no sense to call a 3/3 Zergling with Adrenal Glands or a 3-3-3 Zealot with Charge "tier1" considering the amount of tech/time invested in them, even if they still come from the elementary military building.
You can get a BC by 7:30? Time to try out proxy BC's.
Your name makes this post extra amusing.
lol totally .. tell us if BC's shitty dps worked when you proxied it
You've clearly never seen my famous BC's run fly by.
IMO nydus and drop play would be a cool thing to be buffed, They are extremly cool to watch and fun to play. I would like to see them more often in ALL matchups. Might be good for entertainment as well But even if nydus and drop would be buffed, i am afraid it would not be playable against the 4M pressure in current TVZ Somehow Zerg needs a possibility to break the endless stream of units terrans are sending at them. If zerg could mutate Hive with every t2 building of zerg, zerg could get faster from a muta-ling-baneling based composition into ultralisks. This would be 100 gas zerg does not have to spend to get to t3, so not a huge buff, but maybe it would help a little.
On September 04 2013 00:24 ZoonSC wrote: IMO nydus and drop play would be a cool thing to be buffed, They are extremly cool to watch and fun to play. I would like to see them more often in ALL matchups. Might be good for entertainment as well But even if nydus and drop would be buffed, i am afraid it would not be playable against the 4M pressure in current TVZ Somehow Zerg needs a possibility to break the endless stream of units terrans are sending at them. If zerg could mutate Hive with every t2 building of zerg, zerg could get faster from a muta-ling-baneling based composition into ultralisks. This would be 100 gas zerg does not have to spend to get to t3, so not a huge buff, but maybe it would help a little.
HOTS was supposed to increase the harass opportunity of Zerg - with easier Burrow research, swarmhost occupying attention, and improved mutalisk with viper support.
Unfortunately, mines are an incredibly effective defense against harass opportunities, and the increased drop potential means Zerg is even more on the defensive than before.
I think improved Nydus, Drop, or other harass units would only help if: 1) They can happen before medivac drops start, and force Terran to keep more units at home 2) Medivac drops are less effective / more costly for Terran.
On September 03 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote: The tier discussion is rather idiotic anyway; people call 3/3 Marines "tier1" while you can't have 3/3 before 17', i. e. long after a Battlecruiser theoretically obtainable as early as 7'30. To me it makes no sense to call a 3/3 Zergling with Adrenal Glands or a 3-3-3 Zealot with Charge "tier1" considering the amount of tech/time invested in them, even if they still come from the elementary military building.
You can get a BC by 7:30? Time to try out proxy BC's.
Your name makes this post extra amusing.
lol totally .. tell us if BC's shitty dps worked when you proxied it
You've clearly never seen my famous BC's run fly by.
I really dislike Blizzard's approach to BCs in SCII. While the animation might be more interesting to watch(debatable), the fact that they do 6 damage a shot means +3 armor units cuts damage in half. That's crazy! If it was only one full damage then you lose at best -3 or -4 so they'll still be beastly late game even when they are not upgraded.
Finally got around to reading this. Some good stuff in there. MC makes pretty valid points. Blizzard should find away to make mech viable as well then MMMM is not terrans best option to play the game.
I can't say i don't like MC... but his statements always seem a bit futile and shallow minded (at least for me). I get his point about the need for learning english. But does it rly have to do anything with being a progamer? Well ofc it does, but for a much lesser extent than any other rly important thing means for a person who makes money playing a game. I was hyped about the "progamer mindset" headline. And what did i get? MC bragging about his self improvement in english, which is by the way not so great. His speculations about ZvT seem fair, but i don't rly think that all of the SC2 real problems lay in certain match ups. And even if blizzard actually imrpoves it, that won't change a lot.
EPT
