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I like the armory upgrade . It would help TvP late game a lot and also could make for a more diverse army composition with mech .
The zerg changes are also nice , but i don't think it would help zerg much . The problem with ZvT is that the Swarn host and banelings aren't doing half the task at what the lurker did in BW , and that is help them by time for their economy and tech to kick in and give them the necessary tools to fight 4M . It wasn't such a problem in WOL , but now in HOTS with mines you just can't trade effectively vs Terran .
Fungal isn't worth it anymore and units automatically moving out of blinding cloud is pretty stupid if you ask me , but it would be nice to see more blinding cloud usage .
I am dissapointed in the pros utilization of mechanics like burrow , overlord drops and nudis worm . Things like defensive nudis to protect far away bases , burrowed banelings or bane drops on worker or other light units have so much potential . Maybe some buffs in those areas . Like giving Overseer the ability to drop , or drop research cost decrease could be nice . Maybe a nudis health or armor buff . I would like to see those kind of changes being tested ... an overlord armor upgrade who knows , but it's better then nothing and would help for mechanics that are really good and valueable being used again ...
Also if the zerg are struggling i don't mind seeing more zerg friendly maps . The way the balance worked in BW . You make maps zerg imba and we have balance again .
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On August 20 2013 13:56 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 13:48 Hoon wrote:Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing. What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one? They are saying mines rape lings/blings/mutas if you dont pay attention, so they are giving ultras a boost to make them better to use against bio since they kinda just run over mines. Dont agree with the change though.
Yeah and terrans whole army dies in ONE second if u dont pay attencion for even 0.50 sec when banelings are on the map!
Blizzard are making zerg easyer and easyer to play. zerg dosnt struggle... i always see zerg wins when i watch master cups or master/gm streamers.
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Why people are complaing about the ultalisk changes? ultras sucks out of the creep vs a heavy marauder compositions. If the zerg dont kill the terran just after the ultras pops out, they are dead (in pro games). Zerg dont have a strong late game composition any more, infestors are great, but they die too easily, is very hard to hit good fungals. Zerg easy? Yeah we have so many zegs at WCS finals. And who in the world would think JD or scarlett are the favourite to take 1st place? Only if you dont know the sc2 pro scene. A top tier terran will be always favourite vs a top tier zerg right know at the sc2 scene.
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On August 21 2013 21:48 Mocking wrote:
Why people are complaing about the ultalisk changes? ultras sucks out of the creep vs a heavy marauder compositions. If the zerg dont kill the terran just after the ultras pops out, they are dead (in pro games). Zerg dont have a strong late game composition any more, infestors are great, but they die too easily, is very hard to hit good fungals. Zerg easy? Yeah we have so many zegs at WCS finals. And who in the world would think JD or scarlett are the favourite to take 1st place? Only if you dont know the sc2 pro scene. A top tier terran will be always favourite vs a top tier zerg right know at the sc2 scene.
Well, zerg has great lategame compositions in TvZ. You just have to switch around and adapt to what your opponent is doing:
Marine/Mine/Medivac --> Ultra/Infestor based
Marine/Marauder/Mine/Medivac --> Broodlord/Infestor based
Skyterran --> Viper/Corruptor/Static D. based
Mech --> Viper based
thing is, the moment a Terran gets in trouble compositionwise from a biocomposition, he will usually try to go drops/baserace, and the game will usually end then and there as you will either get ahead and be able to just overrun him or die from the drops.
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On August 21 2013 21:56 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 21:48 Mocking wrote:
Why people are complaing about the ultalisk changes? ultras sucks out of the creep vs a heavy marauder compositions. If the zerg dont kill the terran just after the ultras pops out, they are dead (in pro games). Zerg dont have a strong late game composition any more, infestors are great, but they die too easily, is very hard to hit good fungals. Zerg easy? Yeah we have so many zegs at WCS finals. And who in the world would think JD or scarlett are the favourite to take 1st place? Only if you dont know the sc2 pro scene. A top tier terran will be always favourite vs a top tier zerg right know at the sc2 scene. Well, zerg has great lategame compositions in TvZ. You just have to switch around and adapt to what your opponent is doing: Marine/Mine/Medivac --> Ultra/Infestor based
Marine/Marauder/Mine/Medivac --> Broodlord/Infestor basedSkyterran --> Viper/Corruptor/Static D. based Mech --> Viper based
Both of those lose because the terran has the ability to switch to mass drop play. Both of those Zerg compositions are slow, and do poorly when split into smaller groups. It's not as easy as countering a composition. You gave to counter the play style, which is why things are so sketchy for late game zerg. We have the tools to beat the army straight up, certainly, but fighting straight up will only happen if the terran wants it to happen.
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On August 21 2013 21:56 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 21:48 Mocking wrote:
Why people are complaing about the ultalisk changes? ultras sucks out of the creep vs a heavy marauder compositions. If the zerg dont kill the terran just after the ultras pops out, they are dead (in pro games). Zerg dont have a strong late game composition any more, infestors are great, but they die too easily, is very hard to hit good fungals. Zerg easy? Yeah we have so many zegs at WCS finals. And who in the world would think JD or scarlett are the favourite to take 1st place? Only if you dont know the sc2 pro scene. A top tier terran will be always favourite vs a top tier zerg right know at the sc2 scene. Well, zerg has great lategame compositions in TvZ. You just have to switch around and adapt to what your opponent is doing: Marine/Mine/Medivac --> Ultra/Infestor based Marine/Marauder/Mine/Medivac --> Broodlord/Infestor based Skyterran --> Viper/Corruptor/Static D. based Mech --> Viper based
The problem is the high cost of that. If the mid-game pushes is very hard to a zerg have a decent economy. And my point is even if the ultra buff, marauders still you be great vs them, and marauders use marines upgrates yet.
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Armory upgrade is still a lousy attempt to fix mech and at most you'll get to see some mech abomination like thor/hellbat/banshee, I rather pass on that. Just give the tank a proper buff (reintroducing siege tech) and give the thor some AA buff.
Overseer change is fine
Ultralisk change is not needed, Z is not exactly weak lategame if anything their transition to get there is too hard. Buff viper or infestor to make it easier to get to hive or do something like reducing hive tech cost a little or the cost of some hive upgrades (chitonous plating, +3 armor, adrenal glands). Hive vs T is a massive investment at the moment for things that pay off rather late, almost every time in pro ZvT you see them dying during this transition. If they get there unharmed ultralisks are already giving zerg a small edge.
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I agree that instead of Armory Change they should just buff siege tank. My idea: New tank upgrade off tech lab:
Double Shot
Allows siege tank to fire twice for half damage.
This would make tank almost twice as effective against immortals, opening up mech for TvP.
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On August 21 2013 22:14 Markwerf wrote:
Armory upgrade is still a lousy attempt to fix mech and at most you'll get to see some mech abomination like thor/hellbat/banshee, I rather pass on that. Just give the tank a proper buff (reintroducing siege tech) and give the thor some AA buff.
Overseer change is fine
Ultralisk change is not needed, Z is not exactly weak lategame if anything their transition to get there is too hard. Buff viper or infestor to make it easier to get to hive or do something like reducing hive tech cost a little or the cost of some hive upgrades (chitonous plating, +3 armor, adrenal glands). Hive vs T is a massive investment at the moment for things that pay off rather late, almost every time in pro ZvT you see them dying during this transition. If they get there unharmed ultralisks are already giving zerg a small edge.
Exactly what I think.
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I think zerg is pretty weak vs T. Not because Ultra/infestor cant win vs a terran army, but as a zerg is very hard to kill the terran. He can drop everywhere, putting you in a defensive position, while he is macroing pretty well. Is not like "Oh no, the zergs get 12 ultras and 6 festor, i should gg now, cant win using bio-mine anymore".
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On August 21 2013 22:54 Mocking wrote:
I think zerg is pretty weak vs T. Not because Ultra/infestor cant win vs a terran army, but as a zerg is very hard to kill the terran. He can drop everywhere, putting you in a defensive position, while he is macroing pretty well. Is not like "Oh no, the zergs get 12 ultras and 6 festor, i should gg now, cant win using bio-mine anymore".
Properly positioned static defense shuts down drops hard unless Terran fully commits.
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On August 21 2013 22:23 manniefresh wrote:
I agree that instead of Armory Change they should just buff siege tank. My idea: New tank upgrade off tech lab:
Double Shot
Allows siege tank to fire twice for half damage.
This would make tank almost twice as effective against immortals, opening up mech for TvP.
You seem to forget that the Immortal is only ONE of many issues the tank currently has in TvP.
In BW, Protoss actually had a hard time dealing with tanks as their most effective units were very high tier with very high gas costs: HT w/ storm, and Carriers.
Lacking that massive gas available, the typical solution was to drop zealots out of a shuttle on top of the tanks and have the tanks kill each other while forcing your way into the fight with dragoons from as many angles as possible. This wasn't a great option, but effective enough to make an interesting MU.
In SC2, Stalkers have blink, Zealots have charge, Tanks take far more shots to kill Zealots compared to BW, and useful air units like the Void Ray and Phoenix are available much earlier than Carriers were in BW. Throw the Immortal in there and far reduced damage to Archon, and the Tank is just a weak unit vs Protoss all around.
If they wanted to make the Siege Tank good again in TvP, it would take a lot more than a specific anti-immortal buff.
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On August 21 2013 22:14 Markwerf wrote:
Armory upgrade is still a lousy attempt to fix mech and at most you'll get to see some mech abomination like thor/hellbat/banshee, I rather pass on that. Just give the tank a proper buff (reintroducing siege tech) and give the thor some AA buff.
I think the upgrade merge is primary there to smoothen a possible transition into hellbats for TvP lategame. Though I don't think Terrans will go double ebay, double armory (for Vikings and hellbats) in TvP because of that, I think they will upgrade Mech attacks instead of Armor after such a change. Because attack upgrades for Vikings/Hellbats are better than armor upgrades.
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On August 21 2013 21:37 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 13:56 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 20 2013 13:48 Hoon wrote:Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing. What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one? They are saying mines rape lings/blings/mutas if you dont pay attention, so they are giving ultras a boost to make them better to use against bio since they kinda just run over mines. Dont agree with the change though. Yeah and terrans whole army dies in ONE second if u dont pay attencion for even 0.50 sec when banelings are on the map! Blizzard are making zerg easyer and easyer to play. zerg dosnt struggle... i always see zerg wins when i watch master cups or master/gm streamers.
Just shut up when you obviously don't know jack shit about what you're talking about. I'm glad Blizzard doesn't listen to random ladder heroes like you, the game would be broken as hell if they would.
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I think instead of collapsing the zerg tech tree a more sane option is to give bio-mine useful transitioning options, like ghosts and ravens. I wouldn't mind ultralisks becoming more powerful if terran had tools to stop them.
Another way to slow down terran is to strengthen contaminate for overseers.
Other options are small nerfs to terran upgrades and the widow mine.
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Fungal is pretty damn good against 4M, especially with ultras in the mix. I can think of one thing that would help zerg and the viewers: reduce the size of the infestor! 6-7 infestors take up the whole battlefield, are inte the way of other units and are a general pain in the ass to both look and play with because of them headbutting into eachother.
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On August 21 2013 21:48 Mocking wrote:
Why people are complaing about the ultalisk changes? ultras sucks out of the creep vs a heavy marauder compositions. If the zerg dont kill the terran just after the ultras pops out, they are dead (in pro games). Zerg dont have a strong late game composition any more, infestors are great, but they die too easily, is very hard to hit good fungals. Zerg easy? Yeah we have so many zegs at WCS finals. And who in the world would think JD or scarlett are the favourite to take 1st place? Only if you dont know the sc2 pro scene. A top tier terran will be always favourite vs a top tier zerg right know at the sc2 scene.
Blizzard seems to be nudging people along the line of going with ultras as the late game aoe against marines.
For one thing, it's not very interesting to watch. It also has implications in other match-ups.
A more interesting change would be to give banes a hive upgrade to make them more cost effective at tier 3 vs marines but also slightly harder to use.
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Quick question: does blinding cloud reduce widow mine range to 1? If not, that would help.
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On August 22 2013 00:00 metroid composite wrote:
Quick question: does blinding cloud reduce widow mine range to 1? If not, that would help.
No, blinding cloud doesn't work on mines.
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EPT
