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On August 21 2013 08:54 Deathstar34 wrote:
You can buff late game Z all you want but if they cant get to the late game somewhat safely, then the ultra buff is useless. Zerg needs some sort of mid game buff against T to help them out.
This. This is what I've been saying a billion times.
Either a new mid-game unit, or hydras/SH need to be re-worked.
I'd prefer hydra being changed so that they apply 'special toxin' that reduces the regeneration and healing rate by 50%. That way, it won't really affect vs. Protoss or Zerg matchups because regeneration is pitfully slow during battle anyway, and only really hurts the medivac healing rate (which is pretty justified seeing as how 4M just completely demolishes Hydra/Roach if micro'd properly on both sides)
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On August 22 2013 05:54 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 08:54 Deathstar34 wrote:
You can buff late game Z all you want but if they cant get to the late game somewhat safely, then the ultra buff is useless. Zerg needs some sort of mid game buff against T to help them out. This. This is what I've been saying a billion times. Either a new mid-game unit, or hydras/SH need to be re-worked. I'd prefer hydra being changed so that they apply 'special toxin' that reduces the regeneration and healing rate by 50%. That way, it won't really affect vs. Protoss or Zerg matchups because regeneration is pitfully slow during battle anyway, and only really hurts the medivac healing rate (which is pretty justified seeing as how 4M just completely demolishes Hydra/Roach if micro'd properly on both sides)
This is actually one of the best ideas I've read so far.
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On August 22 2013 06:10 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 05:54 GhostOwl wrote:On August 21 2013 08:54 Deathstar34 wrote:
You can buff late game Z all you want but if they cant get to the late game somewhat safely, then the ultra buff is useless. Zerg needs some sort of mid game buff against T to help them out. This. This is what I've been saying a billion times. Either a new mid-game unit, or hydras/SH need to be re-worked. I'd prefer hydra being changed so that they apply 'special toxin' that reduces the regeneration and healing rate by 50%. That way, it won't really affect vs. Protoss or Zerg matchups because regeneration is pitfully slow during battle anyway, and only really hurts the medivac healing rate (which is pretty justified seeing as how 4M just completely demolishes Hydra/Roach if micro'd properly on both sides) This is actually one of the best ideas I've read so far.
I think this has been a missed opportunity: someone taking community suggestions for reworking units or new abilities, testing them out, creating a short summary video about the results and posting it on youtube.
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On August 22 2013 04:25 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 17:21 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 15:49 larse wrote:
I think beside Korea, ZvT winrate is quite balanced. That lair to 3-3 suggestion is too overreacted.
TvP is the really broken matchup that needs to be fixed. The Season 3 Korean winrate TvP is about 30%. That's pretty broken. According to TLPD the Up & Downs went like this: TvZ: 9-4 PvZ: 10-9 TvP: 11-4 So both have ~30% (in a tiny, tiny number of games) in Season 3 up to now. OK. But still TvP is broken as hell. I mean, 30%...
So both have the same win rate and you just happily ignore the one your race is winning?
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Imo infestors need to be made useful in TvZ against Terrans who know how to split. Once you split bio, infestors is a piece of junk. IT are worthless. Even a money fungal is useless unless you can chain two, and then the Terran can reproduce those marines really fast if they can macro. Low hp marines are just as good at splitting and raping Ling bling muta and sniping hatcheries. so fungals that don't kill aren't very useful at all.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Zerg late game is already good enough, it's not broken, but it's strong, especially if T3 units get massed. However, even pro Zergs die before they reach Ultras in a very cheap fashion. I, for one, despise the Widow Mine, I was the avid anti-Widow Mine from the early beta days. But it's here to stay, I'm just a Diamond League player and my mechanics might not be the best ones, but again, Widow Mines are way too strong and way too easy to use (don't even try to compare Widow Mines to Burrowed Banelings). For one, Zerg cannot scout out the "ahead" territory with a detector if the army is there, while other races can, that's my argument and that discussion is pointless.
Zerg really needs some help in the mid game, as many do not make it out alive, even if the opponent is not all-inning.
Viper is a "meh" unit. Too strong versus mech and very weak versus bio, hence why it's not really reliable.
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On August 22 2013 05:54 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 08:54 Deathstar34 wrote:
You can buff late game Z all you want but if they cant get to the late game somewhat safely, then the ultra buff is useless. Zerg needs some sort of mid game buff against T to help them out. This. This is what I've been saying a billion times. Either a new mid-game unit, or hydras/SH need to be re-worked. I'd prefer hydra being changed so that they apply 'special toxin' that reduces the regeneration and healing rate by 50%. That way, it won't really affect vs. Protoss or Zerg matchups because regeneration is pitfully slow during battle anyway, and only really hurts the medivac healing rate (which is pretty justified seeing as how 4M just completely demolishes Hydra/Roach if micro'd properly on both sides)
Fantastic idea, this would be a great way to encourage diversity in TvZ and maybe bring more tanks back to the mu
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On August 22 2013 11:40 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 05:54 GhostOwl wrote:On August 21 2013 08:54 Deathstar34 wrote:
You can buff late game Z all you want but if they cant get to the late game somewhat safely, then the ultra buff is useless. Zerg needs some sort of mid game buff against T to help them out. This. This is what I've been saying a billion times. Either a new mid-game unit, or hydras/SH need to be re-worked. I'd prefer hydra being changed so that they apply 'special toxin' that reduces the regeneration and healing rate by 50%. That way, it won't really affect vs. Protoss or Zerg matchups because regeneration is pitfully slow during battle anyway, and only really hurts the medivac healing rate (which is pretty justified seeing as how 4M just completely demolishes Hydra/Roach if micro'd properly on both sides) Fantastic idea, this would be a great way to encourage diversity in TvZ and maybe bring more tanks back to the mu
Very cool idea, indeed.
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hydra acid probably will need 80% or stop healing altogether for roach hydra to match 4M
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On August 22 2013 02:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 18:58 Rabiator wrote:On August 21 2013 17:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 21 2013 17:39 Rabiator wrote:On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote:
The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth base while Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing. Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal. + Show Spoiler +/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years. The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense. The only reason BC's have ever been "bad" against zerg is because they are 0-0 upgrades in the lategame. BC's, ravens and ghosts are all viable in the late game for terran though, really. I wouldnt mind seeing cloaked ghost queen sniping into tech nuking. 2 nukes kills any tech building. Send in 5 or 6 ghosts while turtling, kill the main + nat + 3rd + macro hatch queen -> nuke all the tech. Obviously there is no Neural Parasite, no "vs massive Corruptors" and no "machinegun Hydras" (BCs are even slower than slow Hydras off creep). And there probably isnt an Abduct spell either now, eh? Ghosts - which are Tier 2 units which were NOT the topic - dont deal nearly enough damage for their cost when they run out of energy because they are squishy "vs. light specialists" and a big part of the damage Zerg deals does not come from light units. Ravens are super expensive at 200 gas apiece and thus can never really achieve the efficiency of Infestors AND their "fighting unit" costs 50 energy and requires building squares and thus isnt as spammable and as "concentratable" as the Infested Terrans of the Infestor. Their other two spells are far too expensive to be useable all the time because you wont ever have the 25+ of them as it was possible for the Infestor. Too bad the Seeker Missile got nerfed so much that it doesnt really do AoE anymore (because most of the time only one target gets hit). Even if the Terran had the gas to build 25 Ravens that would take AGES since they cant just do it in one production cycle so the unit has at max a supporting role. Numbers - "critical numbers" at that - affect the power of a unit and in the case of energy units it is important to have enough of them so you can "always have a Fungal" or "always Forcefield" ... and that is simply unrealistic for the Raven. Dont look at them when they are doing something ... look at them over the course of "the whole war". Corruptors are "meh" against BC's. Raven/BC is even worse thanks to PDD and HSM. Hydras are BAD against BC's. Why would you think a low damage fast firing unit is good against a high armor unit? Do you think marines are good against ultralisks? The only thing that works is abduct and neural, both of which can be hard to pull off. Tier system is archaic and has always been questionable. Ghosts are tier 3 infantry in my mind. I dont understand why their damage while uncloaked is what you choose to point out since they just killed off a majority of production and all of the tech at a supply cost of 10. 5 ghosts isnt making an army of ghosts or something. And are you really saying the raven sucks? REALLY? And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt?
The problem is that you ignored the most important point of my argument ... the NUMBERS of the units (not their stats but how many there are).
Raven sucks because you will usually have only 3-4 of them and this means they will run out of energy "as a group". The Infestor became a problem because 25+ would NOT run out of energy as a group and there would always be enough for a Fungal. Added to this "energy problem" is the fact that Seeker Missile has become rather bad in that its target is so obviously announced. The original "slow homing" version was much harder to detect AND it had the added effect of scaring away the enemy units as a group. The current version is easy to "counter" because you simply move the big red glowing unit from the front.
Hydras are awesome against BCs, because "Skyterran" doesnt start with the flip of a switch and which other unit would you start massing against that? With the Viper and its Abduct spell AND a clump of Hydras you can easily get rid of BCs. I have seen games where a Colossus got pulled into a group of Zerg units and died in HALF A SECOND. Sure it will take a bit longer to kill the BC, but there is no doubt as to the end.
You really need to learn to look behind the unit stats and look at the realities of a game. Ground infantry is easily massed but high tech Terran units like the BC arent. Ultralisks are Zerg units and they never come alone but rather come with many Ultralisks AND they have REALLY BIG AoE damage which kills Marines easily. Does the BC have the same to scare Hydralisks? No!
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On August 21 2013 22:23 manniefresh wrote:
I agree that instead of Armory Change they should just buff siege tank.
Words of wisdom.
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On August 22 2013 15:57 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 22:23 manniefresh wrote:
I agree that instead of Armory Change they should just buff siege tank. Words of wisdom.
the only problem with that is...
blizzard hates tanks.
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On August 22 2013 15:02 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 02:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 21 2013 18:58 Rabiator wrote:On August 21 2013 17:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 21 2013 17:39 Rabiator wrote:On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote:
The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth base while Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing. Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal. + Show Spoiler +/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years. The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense. The only reason BC's have ever been "bad" against zerg is because they are 0-0 upgrades in the lategame. BC's, ravens and ghosts are all viable in the late game for terran though, really. I wouldnt mind seeing cloaked ghost queen sniping into tech nuking. 2 nukes kills any tech building. Send in 5 or 6 ghosts while turtling, kill the main + nat + 3rd + macro hatch queen -> nuke all the tech. Obviously there is no Neural Parasite, no "vs massive Corruptors" and no "machinegun Hydras" (BCs are even slower than slow Hydras off creep). And there probably isnt an Abduct spell either now, eh? Ghosts - which are Tier 2 units which were NOT the topic - dont deal nearly enough damage for their cost when they run out of energy because they are squishy "vs. light specialists" and a big part of the damage Zerg deals does not come from light units. Ravens are super expensive at 200 gas apiece and thus can never really achieve the efficiency of Infestors AND their "fighting unit" costs 50 energy and requires building squares and thus isnt as spammable and as "concentratable" as the Infested Terrans of the Infestor. Their other two spells are far too expensive to be useable all the time because you wont ever have the 25+ of them as it was possible for the Infestor. Too bad the Seeker Missile got nerfed so much that it doesnt really do AoE anymore (because most of the time only one target gets hit). Even if the Terran had the gas to build 25 Ravens that would take AGES since they cant just do it in one production cycle so the unit has at max a supporting role. Numbers - "critical numbers" at that - affect the power of a unit and in the case of energy units it is important to have enough of them so you can "always have a Fungal" or "always Forcefield" ... and that is simply unrealistic for the Raven. Dont look at them when they are doing something ... look at them over the course of "the whole war". Corruptors are "meh" against BC's. Raven/BC is even worse thanks to PDD and HSM. Hydras are BAD against BC's. Why would you think a low damage fast firing unit is good against a high armor unit? Do you think marines are good against ultralisks? The only thing that works is abduct and neural, both of which can be hard to pull off. Tier system is archaic and has always been questionable. Ghosts are tier 3 infantry in my mind. I dont understand why their damage while uncloaked is what you choose to point out since they just killed off a majority of production and all of the tech at a supply cost of 10. 5 ghosts isnt making an army of ghosts or something. And are you really saying the raven sucks? REALLY? And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt? The problem is that you ignored the most important point of my argument ... the NUMBERS of the units (not their stats but how many there are). Raven sucks because you will usually have only 3-4 of them and this means they will run out of energy "as a group". The Infestor became a problem because 25+ would NOT run out of energy as a group and there would always be enough for a Fungal. Added to this "energy problem" is the fact that Seeker Missile has become rather bad in that its target is so obviously announced. The original "slow homing" version was much harder to detect AND it had the added effect of scaring away the enemy units as a group. The current version is easy to "counter" because you simply move the big red glowing unit from the front. Hydras are awesome against BCs, because "Skyterran" doesnt start with the flip of a switch and which other unit would you start massing against that? With the Viper and its Abduct spell AND a clump of Hydras you can easily get rid of BCs. I have seen games where a Colossus got pulled into a group of Zerg units and died in HALF A SECOND. Sure it will take a bit longer to kill the BC, but there is no doubt as to the end. You really need to learn to look behind the unit stats and look at the realities of a game. Ground infantry is easily massed but high tech Terran units like the BC arent. Ultralisks are Zerg units and they never come alone but rather come with many Ultralisks AND they have REALLY BIG AoE damage which kills Marines easily. Does the BC have the same to scare Hydralisks? No!
so you compare a single BC to a hydra/viper army? wtf? either you have some BC and ravens which also means you will have a lot of MMMM leftover which laugh at hydras or if going mech you will have tanks, BF helions (which also own hydras) etc.
compare armies and not single units doing vs an army. only way to fight BC raven + support army for Z is hiding behind spores with SH and viper and reason is that hydras DO suck. its just the opposite of what you say. Z AA is so horrible that Z has to hide behind mass spores vs both T and P air once they reach their composition (hydrabased armies are always a (semi) all in army where you need to do so much damage you can either kill them or transition into SH + spores which is so boring).
really hope they nerf SH + spore turtle (just make SHs better in lower numbers and worse in big numbers) and compensate by finally buffing hydras to a viable level and give Z a way to deal with spellcasters which is reason no.2 Z hides behind spores with SHs since nothing else but SHs can deal with HTs or mass ravens.
--> BC raven + support is the strongest army in TvZ, its getting there wheres the problem. MMMM forces Z to go T3 units...the same should be done with T. so buff units like viper and infestors to make MMMM on a timer like ling bane muta and buff the transition possibilities from bio to mech/air (thats why i like the upgrade buff for T: it makes the transition easier but its not enough). for example remove the energy upgrade for ravens and lower armory cost while increasing bio +3 +3 upgrade cost so mech gets buffed, bio nerfed (only at +3 +3) and bio can start mech/air upgrades earlier/its easier to transition to T3.
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On August 22 2013 16:49 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 15:02 Rabiator wrote:On August 22 2013 02:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 21 2013 18:58 Rabiator wrote:On August 21 2013 17:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 21 2013 17:39 Rabiator wrote:On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote:
The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth base while Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing. Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal. + Show Spoiler +/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years. The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense. The only reason BC's have ever been "bad" against zerg is because they are 0-0 upgrades in the lategame. BC's, ravens and ghosts are all viable in the late game for terran though, really. I wouldnt mind seeing cloaked ghost queen sniping into tech nuking. 2 nukes kills any tech building. Send in 5 or 6 ghosts while turtling, kill the main + nat + 3rd + macro hatch queen -> nuke all the tech. Obviously there is no Neural Parasite, no "vs massive Corruptors" and no "machinegun Hydras" (BCs are even slower than slow Hydras off creep). And there probably isnt an Abduct spell either now, eh? Ghosts - which are Tier 2 units which were NOT the topic - dont deal nearly enough damage for their cost when they run out of energy because they are squishy "vs. light specialists" and a big part of the damage Zerg deals does not come from light units. Ravens are super expensive at 200 gas apiece and thus can never really achieve the efficiency of Infestors AND their "fighting unit" costs 50 energy and requires building squares and thus isnt as spammable and as "concentratable" as the Infested Terrans of the Infestor. Their other two spells are far too expensive to be useable all the time because you wont ever have the 25+ of them as it was possible for the Infestor. Too bad the Seeker Missile got nerfed so much that it doesnt really do AoE anymore (because most of the time only one target gets hit). Even if the Terran had the gas to build 25 Ravens that would take AGES since they cant just do it in one production cycle so the unit has at max a supporting role. Numbers - "critical numbers" at that - affect the power of a unit and in the case of energy units it is important to have enough of them so you can "always have a Fungal" or "always Forcefield" ... and that is simply unrealistic for the Raven. Dont look at them when they are doing something ... look at them over the course of "the whole war". Corruptors are "meh" against BC's. Raven/BC is even worse thanks to PDD and HSM. Hydras are BAD against BC's. Why would you think a low damage fast firing unit is good against a high armor unit? Do you think marines are good against ultralisks? The only thing that works is abduct and neural, both of which can be hard to pull off. Tier system is archaic and has always been questionable. Ghosts are tier 3 infantry in my mind. I dont understand why their damage while uncloaked is what you choose to point out since they just killed off a majority of production and all of the tech at a supply cost of 10. 5 ghosts isnt making an army of ghosts or something. And are you really saying the raven sucks? REALLY? And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt? The problem is that you ignored the most important point of my argument ... the NUMBERS of the units (not their stats but how many there are). Raven sucks because you will usually have only 3-4 of them and this means they will run out of energy "as a group". The Infestor became a problem because 25+ would NOT run out of energy as a group and there would always be enough for a Fungal. Added to this "energy problem" is the fact that Seeker Missile has become rather bad in that its target is so obviously announced. The original "slow homing" version was much harder to detect AND it had the added effect of scaring away the enemy units as a group. The current version is easy to "counter" because you simply move the big red glowing unit from the front. Hydras are awesome against BCs, because "Skyterran" doesnt start with the flip of a switch and which other unit would you start massing against that? With the Viper and its Abduct spell AND a clump of Hydras you can easily get rid of BCs. I have seen games where a Colossus got pulled into a group of Zerg units and died in HALF A SECOND. Sure it will take a bit longer to kill the BC, but there is no doubt as to the end. You really need to learn to look behind the unit stats and look at the realities of a game. Ground infantry is easily massed but high tech Terran units like the BC arent. Ultralisks are Zerg units and they never come alone but rather come with many Ultralisks AND they have REALLY BIG AoE damage which kills Marines easily. Does the BC have the same to scare Hydralisks? No! so you compare a single BC to a hydra/viper army? wtf? either you have some BC and ravens which also means you will have a lot of MMMM leftover which laugh at hydras or if going mech you will have tanks, BF helions (which also own hydras) etc. compare armies and not single units doing vs an army. only way to fight BC raven + support army for Z is hiding behind spores with SH and viper and reason is that hydras DO suck. its just the opposite of what you say. Z AA is so horrible that Z has to hide behind mass spores vs both T and P air once they reach their composition (hydrabased armies are always a (semi) all in army where you need to do so much damage you can either kill them or transition into SH + spores which is so boring). really hope they nerf SH + spore turtle (just make SHs better in lower numbers and worse in big numbers) and compensate by finally buffing hydras to a viable level and give Z a way to deal with spellcasters which is reason no.2 Z hides behind spores with SHs since nothing else but SHs can deal with HTs or mass ravens. --> BC raven + support is the strongest army in TvZ, its getting there wheres the problem. MMMM forces Z to go T3 units...the same should be done with T. so buff units like viper and infestors to make MMMM on a timer like ling bane muta and buff the transition possibilities from bio to mech/air (thats why i like the upgrade buff for T: it makes the transition easier but its not enough). for example remove the energy upgrade for ravens and lower armory cost while increasing bio +3 +3 upgrade cost so mech gets buffed, bio nerfed (only at +3 +3) and bio can start mech/air upgrades earlier/its easier to transition to T3.
Actually, the typical 4M (Ie, Innovation) push against zerg IS on a timer because it is usually done off 3 bases and parading units across the map. Problem is that the time between marines getting 3-3 and when minerals running out for the terran is fairly long and a majority of the time, the zerg is already dead or limited to 3 bases where their minerals are running out as well.
The key to balance is to shortening this window without closing it like 6 queens-->infestor/ling-->BL did in WoL. Because if the zerg can stablize easily on 4 bases with 75 drones while the terran is still on 3, it will become WoL ZvT again.
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On August 22 2013 17:19 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 16:49 Decendos wrote:On August 22 2013 15:02 Rabiator wrote:On August 22 2013 02:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 21 2013 18:58 Rabiator wrote:On August 21 2013 17:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 21 2013 17:39 Rabiator wrote:On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote:
The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth base while Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing. Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal. + Show Spoiler +/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years. The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense. The only reason BC's have ever been "bad" against zerg is because they are 0-0 upgrades in the lategame. BC's, ravens and ghosts are all viable in the late game for terran though, really. I wouldnt mind seeing cloaked ghost queen sniping into tech nuking. 2 nukes kills any tech building. Send in 5 or 6 ghosts while turtling, kill the main + nat + 3rd + macro hatch queen -> nuke all the tech. Obviously there is no Neural Parasite, no "vs massive Corruptors" and no "machinegun Hydras" (BCs are even slower than slow Hydras off creep). And there probably isnt an Abduct spell either now, eh? Ghosts - which are Tier 2 units which were NOT the topic - dont deal nearly enough damage for their cost when they run out of energy because they are squishy "vs. light specialists" and a big part of the damage Zerg deals does not come from light units. Ravens are super expensive at 200 gas apiece and thus can never really achieve the efficiency of Infestors AND their "fighting unit" costs 50 energy and requires building squares and thus isnt as spammable and as "concentratable" as the Infested Terrans of the Infestor. Their other two spells are far too expensive to be useable all the time because you wont ever have the 25+ of them as it was possible for the Infestor. Too bad the Seeker Missile got nerfed so much that it doesnt really do AoE anymore (because most of the time only one target gets hit). Even if the Terran had the gas to build 25 Ravens that would take AGES since they cant just do it in one production cycle so the unit has at max a supporting role. Numbers - "critical numbers" at that - affect the power of a unit and in the case of energy units it is important to have enough of them so you can "always have a Fungal" or "always Forcefield" ... and that is simply unrealistic for the Raven. Dont look at them when they are doing something ... look at them over the course of "the whole war". Corruptors are "meh" against BC's. Raven/BC is even worse thanks to PDD and HSM. Hydras are BAD against BC's. Why would you think a low damage fast firing unit is good against a high armor unit? Do you think marines are good against ultralisks? The only thing that works is abduct and neural, both of which can be hard to pull off. Tier system is archaic and has always been questionable. Ghosts are tier 3 infantry in my mind. I dont understand why their damage while uncloaked is what you choose to point out since they just killed off a majority of production and all of the tech at a supply cost of 10. 5 ghosts isnt making an army of ghosts or something. And are you really saying the raven sucks? REALLY? And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt? The problem is that you ignored the most important point of my argument ... the NUMBERS of the units (not their stats but how many there are). Raven sucks because you will usually have only 3-4 of them and this means they will run out of energy "as a group". The Infestor became a problem because 25+ would NOT run out of energy as a group and there would always be enough for a Fungal. Added to this "energy problem" is the fact that Seeker Missile has become rather bad in that its target is so obviously announced. The original "slow homing" version was much harder to detect AND it had the added effect of scaring away the enemy units as a group. The current version is easy to "counter" because you simply move the big red glowing unit from the front. Hydras are awesome against BCs, because "Skyterran" doesnt start with the flip of a switch and which other unit would you start massing against that? With the Viper and its Abduct spell AND a clump of Hydras you can easily get rid of BCs. I have seen games where a Colossus got pulled into a group of Zerg units and died in HALF A SECOND. Sure it will take a bit longer to kill the BC, but there is no doubt as to the end. You really need to learn to look behind the unit stats and look at the realities of a game. Ground infantry is easily massed but high tech Terran units like the BC arent. Ultralisks are Zerg units and they never come alone but rather come with many Ultralisks AND they have REALLY BIG AoE damage which kills Marines easily. Does the BC have the same to scare Hydralisks? No! so you compare a single BC to a hydra/viper army? wtf? either you have some BC and ravens which also means you will have a lot of MMMM leftover which laugh at hydras or if going mech you will have tanks, BF helions (which also own hydras) etc. compare armies and not single units doing vs an army. only way to fight BC raven + support army for Z is hiding behind spores with SH and viper and reason is that hydras DO suck. its just the opposite of what you say. Z AA is so horrible that Z has to hide behind mass spores vs both T and P air once they reach their composition (hydrabased armies are always a (semi) all in army where you need to do so much damage you can either kill them or transition into SH + spores which is so boring). really hope they nerf SH + spore turtle (just make SHs better in lower numbers and worse in big numbers) and compensate by finally buffing hydras to a viable level and give Z a way to deal with spellcasters which is reason no.2 Z hides behind spores with SHs since nothing else but SHs can deal with HTs or mass ravens. --> BC raven + support is the strongest army in TvZ, its getting there wheres the problem. MMMM forces Z to go T3 units...the same should be done with T. so buff units like viper and infestors to make MMMM on a timer like ling bane muta and buff the transition possibilities from bio to mech/air (thats why i like the upgrade buff for T: it makes the transition easier but its not enough). for example remove the energy upgrade for ravens and lower armory cost while increasing bio +3 +3 upgrade cost so mech gets buffed, bio nerfed (only at +3 +3) and bio can start mech/air upgrades earlier/its easier to transition to T3. Actually, the typical 4M (Ie, Innovation) push against zerg IS on a timer because it is usually done off 3 bases and parading units across the map. Problem is that the time between marines getting 3-3 and when minerals running out for the terran is fairly long and a majority of the time, the zerg is already dead or limited to 3 bases where their minerals are running out as well. The key to balance is to shortening this window without closing it like 6 queens-->infestor/ling-->BL did in WoL. Because if the zerg can stablize easily on 4 bases with 75 drones while the terran is still on 3, it will become WoL ZvT again.
agree but like you said its like a REALLY long timer and if you rewatch games where T doesnt manage to kill the Z they just get a 4th, add production facilities and have their 3 3 MMMM army which isnt exactly bad ;-) MMMM is now on a timer (and a huge timer) to get a 4th and be on equal level with Z. 3 base parade pushes arent an all in if you have 65 SCVs which is enough for T and 3 3 with a unit comp that can deal with ultra infestors by just adding a 4th CC and some teclab rax. if Z manages to not take too much damage and get ultra infestor out its an even game, not Z favored so not really a timer that forces T to add tanks or ravens or BCs whatever and right now its obv better to stay on MMMM. i would like it if 3 things happen: Z gets a way to get T3 out, T needs to transition out of MMMM (in is forced) and T gets their transition buffed. so that MMMM is on a real timer but also its easier to transition to mech/air for bio which right now isnt possible (although now easier with combined ups but not enough).
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Ultralisk Health has literally ZERO to do with the lategame ZvT problems. It's the rest of our stuff gets blown up by single widow mine shots.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
Does anyone else want to see Lurkers for Zerg vs 4M, think it would be really cool
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On August 22 2013 21:58 mau5mat wrote:
Does anyone else want to see Lurkers for Zerg vs 4M, think it would be really cool
Nope.
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On August 22 2013 21:58 mau5mat wrote:
Does anyone else want to see Lurkers for Zerg vs 4M, think it would be really cool
blizzard would to but they have a hard time to get it right so it most likely wont happen
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On August 22 2013 21:58 mau5mat wrote:
Does anyone else want to see Lurkers for Zerg vs 4M, think it would be really cool
would be awesome and fix a whole lot of problems Z has right now in TvZ.
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EPT
