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On August 21 2013 22:14 Markwerf wrote:
Armory upgrade is still a lousy attempt to fix mech and at most you'll get to see some mech abomination like thor/hellbat/banshee, I rather pass on that. Just give the tank a proper buff (reintroducing siege tech) and give the thor some AA buff.
The pessimist and realist in me agrees with that. Smoke and mirrors of "hey we are trying but we really aren't, buy the next expansion and we promise to fix mech, again"
The optimist in me though thinks that this is just one step on the road to fixing mech. Buffing and hopefully fixing mech anti air is an important step. This should give them enough time to find a fix for the more important problems of mech, maybe sometime after WCS World finals.
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ok so it will balance tvz but unbalance pvz
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On August 22 2013 01:15 wildstyle1337 wrote:
ok so it will balance tvz but unbalance pvz
which of those changes unbalances PvZ? And which of those changes balances TvZ? Those attemps are pretty much useless. You need to nerf widow mines, but not without compensation. buff Hellbats and tanks/thors!
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On August 22 2013 01:37 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 01:15 wildstyle1337 wrote:
ok so it will balance tvz but unbalance pvz which of those changes unbalances PvZ? And which of those changes balances TvZ? Those attemps are pretty much useless. You need to nerf widow mines, but not without compensation. buff Hellbats and tanks/thors!
Nah ... Widow Mines need to be removed and Thors need to be exchanged for Goliaths (smaller, faster AND cheaper with the same single target AA damage the Thor has in its single target mode). Add to that an increased damage for the Siege Tank and we are on the right path towards making mech viable.
Additionally take out the Hellbat and replace it by the Warhound with the flamers of the Hellbat and you get rid of the stupid mech unit being healed as well while keeping an opportunity to add some nifty attacks to the unit AND the unit can be balanced by its cost as well ... which isnt possible for the Hellbat. Maybe the "Hellhound" has short range grenades which are triggered and targeted and put down flaming pits of oil for a few seconds while shutting down the flamer ability of the unit for the same time (to cool down or recharge).
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On August 21 2013 19:31 Sissors wrote:
Skyterran is a very strong composition, but really not uncounterably for zergs. It just took them a bit of time to figure out skytoss, and skyterran isn't all that different.
Counter will be mainly abducts + spores + regular anti air, and swarm hosts for pressure. Since a skyterran can't split up his army, he has to keep defending the swarm host pressure, and can get picked of one at a time. Of course he can then also do the frontal assault, but while sky terran is very strong in that fashion, he is then fighting on top of a field of spore crawlers.
Skyterran is less vulnerable than skytoss really. SH works great against skytoss because they have so many units like tempest, which shoot slowly. BC's destroy SH because they fire so damned fast.
On August 21 2013 18:58 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 17:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 21 2013 17:39 Rabiator wrote:On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote:
The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth base while Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing. Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal. + Show Spoiler +/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years. The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense. The only reason BC's have ever been "bad" against zerg is because they are 0-0 upgrades in the lategame. BC's, ravens and ghosts are all viable in the late game for terran though, really. I wouldnt mind seeing cloaked ghost queen sniping into tech nuking. 2 nukes kills any tech building. Send in 5 or 6 ghosts while turtling, kill the main + nat + 3rd + macro hatch queen -> nuke all the tech. Obviously there is no Neural Parasite, no "vs massive Corruptors" and no "machinegun Hydras" (BCs are even slower than slow Hydras off creep). And there probably isnt an Abduct spell either now, eh? Ghosts - which are Tier 2 units which were NOT the topic - dont deal nearly enough damage for their cost when they run out of energy because they are squishy "vs. light specialists" and a big part of the damage Zerg deals does not come from light units. Ravens are super expensive at 200 gas apiece and thus can never really achieve the efficiency of Infestors AND their "fighting unit" costs 50 energy and requires building squares and thus isnt as spammable and as "concentratable" as the Infested Terrans of the Infestor. Their other two spells are far too expensive to be useable all the time because you wont ever have the 25+ of them as it was possible for the Infestor. Too bad the Seeker Missile got nerfed so much that it doesnt really do AoE anymore (because most of the time only one target gets hit). Even if the Terran had the gas to build 25 Ravens that would take AGES since they cant just do it in one production cycle so the unit has at max a supporting role. Numbers - "critical numbers" at that - affect the power of a unit and in the case of energy units it is important to have enough of them so you can "always have a Fungal" or "always Forcefield" ... and that is simply unrealistic for the Raven. Dont look at them when they are doing something ... look at them over the course of "the whole war".
Corruptors are "meh" against BC's. Raven/BC is even worse thanks to PDD and HSM. Hydras are BAD against BC's. Why would you think a low damage fast firing unit is good against a high armor unit? Do you think marines are good against ultralisks? The only thing that works is abduct and neural, both of which can be hard to pull off.
Tier system is archaic and has always been questionable. Ghosts are tier 3 infantry in my mind. I dont understand why their damage while uncloaked is what you choose to point out since they just killed off a majority of production and all of the tech at a supply cost of 10. 5 ghosts isnt making an army of ghosts or something.
And are you really saying the raven sucks? REALLY? And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt?
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On August 21 2013 23:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 22:14 Markwerf wrote:
Armory upgrade is still a lousy attempt to fix mech and at most you'll get to see some mech abomination like thor/hellbat/banshee, I rather pass on that. Just give the tank a proper buff (reintroducing siege tech) and give the thor some AA buff. I think the upgrade merge is primary there to smoothen a possible transition into hellbats for TvP lategame. Though I don't think Terrans will go double ebay, double armory (for Vikings and hellbats) in TvP because of that, I think they will upgrade Mech attacks instead of Armor after such a change. Because attack upgrades for Vikings/Hellbats are better than armor upgrades.
There are much better ways to fix this supposed lategame TvP imbalance. For example slightly buff ghosts (they are only used in lategame TvP) or make zealots 90hp/60 shields instead of 100/hp/50 shield.
Chargelots with high armor upgrades are only a thing in PvT really where the armor is quite effective, trading some hp for shields will practically not effect zealots in any other matchup but makes them worse in lategame TvP.
This armory change is about fixing two problems in one go, which I usually approve off as doing multiple things at the same time is the only way to keep balancing a bit elegant (reduce the number of changes needed).
Lategame hellbats in TvP are already fine with armor ugprades effecting them, vikings and medivacs at the same time. All it is now is that the transition is a little hard to it needing a techlab first, 150/150 and then a swap to reactor. The problem is the transition not the endgame power, fixing a transitioning problem by making that endgame much stronger is not really a great move. Same with the ultralisk change, getting there is the problem not the unit itself.. Of course a buff like this helps to balance but makes the game more volatile, kill them before they get there or die afterwards. It's better to keep the game more evenly matched throughout as it makes games more tense.
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And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt
Because of the time needed for a decent raven force to be produced, and because of the infrastructure you need to produce them.
Mass Raven is as stupid as it is strong. But having that is really hard. Much harder than having 3 or 4 vipers in your army. And before 12 to 16 of them. They're not really useful.
All theses changes are bad, unecessary tweaks or stupid ones. Apart for OVI speed buff. Avoiding the real problems. I'm going back to BW imo.
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On August 21 2013 23:18 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 22:23 manniefresh wrote:
I agree that instead of Armory Change they should just buff siege tank. My idea: New tank upgrade off tech lab:
Double Shot
Allows siege tank to fire twice for half damage.
This would make tank almost twice as effective against immortals, opening up mech for TvP. You seem to forget that the Immortal is only ONE of many issues the tank currently has in TvP. In BW, Protoss actually had a hard time dealing with tanks as their most effective units were very high tier with very high gas costs: HT w/ storm, and Carriers. Lacking that massive gas available, the typical solution was to drop zealots out of a shuttle on top of the tanks and have the tanks kill each other while forcing your way into the fight with dragoons from as many angles as possible. This wasn't a great option, but effective enough to make an interesting MU. In SC2, Stalkers have blink, Zealots have charge, Tanks take far more shots to kill Zealots compared to BW, and useful air units like the Void Ray and Phoenix are available much earlier than Carriers were in BW. Throw the Immortal in there and far reduced damage to Archon, and the Tank is just a weak unit vs Protoss all around. If they wanted to make the Siege Tank good again in TvP, it would take a lot more than a specific anti-immortal buff.
And tank/mine were 2 supply, meanwhile in sc2 it's 5.
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On August 22 2013 02:16 MTAC wrote:
Because of the time needed for a decent raven force to be produced, and because of the infrastructure you need to produce them.
Mass Raven is as stupid as it is strong. But having that is really hard. Much harder than having 3 or 4 vipers in your army. And before 12 to 16 of them. They're not really useful. All theses changes are bad, unecessary tweaks or stupid ones. Apart for OVI speed buff. Avoiding the real problems. I'm going back to BW imo.
Zerg players are so used to unlocking unlimited and simultaneous production of a unit with a single tech building that they seem to forget this aspect of Terran design. These Terran units such as the Raven NEED to be really strong because of the long ass time to get the infrastructure up AND the production time is also pretty damn long. A t-lab starport costs 175/125 AND 75s seconds to build (50s if you have the t-lab beforehand) and that will let you make a single Raven at a time...ONE PER MINUTE.
Not to mention Ravens are nearly useless in low numbers whereas 3~5 Vipers (40secs to build all of them) are all Zerg needs.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
Buff tank so it gets some use outside of TvT.
Upgrade at Factory Tech-lab; EMP Shells - Requires Armory - Does bonus damage (+X) to shields.
Upgrade at Factory Tech-lab; High Impact Shells - Requires Armory - Does extra damage to all units, but increases time taken to siege by X.
Could also throw in a reduce time taken to siege/fire next volley thing too, just some ideas.
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On August 22 2013 02:22 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
And tank/mine were 2 supply, meanwhile in sc2 it's 5.
Tank was 2 supply. Spider mine was 0 supply so I don't think it counts, but if you wanna go down that road...a Vulture (75minerals)was 2 supply and had 3 spider mines, so thats 2/3 supply per mine if you count the Vulture (which were kind of disposable).
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On August 22 2013 02:23 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 02:16 MTAC wrote:And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt
Because of the time needed for a decent raven force to be produced, and because of the infrastructure you need to produce them.
Mass Raven is as stupid as it is strong. But having that is really hard. Much harder than having 3 or 4 vipers in your army. And before 12 to 16 of them. They're not really useful. All theses changes are bad, unecessary tweaks or stupid ones. Apart for OVI speed buff. Avoiding the real problems. I'm going back to BW imo. Zerg players are so used to unlocking unlimited and simultaneous production of a unit with a single tech building that they seem to forget this aspect of Terran design. These Terran units such as the Raven NEED to be really strong because of the long ass time to get the infrastructure up AND the production time is also pretty damn long. A t-lab starport costs 175/125 AND 75s seconds to build (50s if you have the t-lab beforehand) and that will let you make a single Raven at a time...ONE PER MINUTE. Not to mention Ravens are nearly useless in low numbers whereas 3~5 Vipers (40secs to build all of them) are all Zerg needs.
Yes zerg´s are used to unlocking that "infinite" production. I still would like to remind you that getting that zerg t3 is a bit more difficult than building a star port. For example after getting the ultralisk cavern you still need to get an upgrade for them. Terrans have quite a lot of time to build a good amount of ravens at the current state of the game, cause they have no hurry to transition into anything. If the zerg ever gets to ultras or brood lords, terran can easily have 4-5 ravens to HSM everything and finish the job with 4M. And because of scans you can always know how close zerg is to getting those T3 heavy hitters, so it should not come as a surprise.
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On August 22 2013 02:30 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 02:23 fried_rice wrote:On August 22 2013 02:16 MTAC wrote:And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt
Because of the time needed for a decent raven force to be produced, and because of the infrastructure you need to produce them.
Mass Raven is as stupid as it is strong. But having that is really hard. Much harder than having 3 or 4 vipers in your army. And before 12 to 16 of them. They're not really useful. All theses changes are bad, unecessary tweaks or stupid ones. Apart for OVI speed buff. Avoiding the real problems. I'm going back to BW imo. Zerg players are so used to unlocking unlimited and simultaneous production of a unit with a single tech building that they seem to forget this aspect of Terran design. These Terran units such as the Raven NEED to be really strong because of the long ass time to get the infrastructure up AND the production time is also pretty damn long. A t-lab starport costs 175/125 AND 75s seconds to build (50s if you have the t-lab beforehand) and that will let you make a single Raven at a time...ONE PER MINUTE. Not to mention Ravens are nearly useless in low numbers whereas 3~5 Vipers (40secs to build all of them) are all Zerg needs. Yes zerg´s are used to unlocking that "infinite" production. I still would like to remind you that getting that zerg t3 is a bit more difficult than building a star port. For example after getting the ultralisk cavern you still need to get an upgrade for them. Terrans have quite a lot of time to build a good amount of ravens at the current state of the game, cause they have no hurry to transition into anything. If the zerg ever gets to ultras or brood lords, terran can easily have 4-5 ravens to HSM everything and finish the job with 4M. And because of scans you can always know how close zerg is to getting those T3 heavy hitters, so it should not come as a surprise.
Wait, you're implying seekers are good vs Ultra? Wat? I rather have Marauders.
HSM is worthless vs Ultras and BLs haven't seen much play in HOTS because of the infestor nerfs and metagame changes and not because of IMBA SEEKERS. PDD is worthless vs mutalingbling into Ultra, and Auto Turret...lolautoturret.
My previous points still stand.
IMO Ravens are much better used(and also harder to get) with Mech than bio, and like I said, a few Ravens won't do much for the Terran.
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On August 22 2013 02:36 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 02:30 RaFox17 wrote:On August 22 2013 02:23 fried_rice wrote:On August 22 2013 02:16 MTAC wrote:And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt
Because of the time needed for a decent raven force to be produced, and because of the infrastructure you need to produce them.
Mass Raven is as stupid as it is strong. But having that is really hard. Much harder than having 3 or 4 vipers in your army. And before 12 to 16 of them. They're not really useful. All theses changes are bad, unecessary tweaks or stupid ones. Apart for OVI speed buff. Avoiding the real problems. I'm going back to BW imo. Zerg players are so used to unlocking unlimited and simultaneous production of a unit with a single tech building that they seem to forget this aspect of Terran design. These Terran units such as the Raven NEED to be really strong because of the long ass time to get the infrastructure up AND the production time is also pretty damn long. A t-lab starport costs 175/125 AND 75s seconds to build (50s if you have the t-lab beforehand) and that will let you make a single Raven at a time...ONE PER MINUTE. Not to mention Ravens are nearly useless in low numbers whereas 3~5 Vipers (40secs to build all of them) are all Zerg needs. Yes zerg´s are used to unlocking that "infinite" production. I still would like to remind you that getting that zerg t3 is a bit more difficult than building a star port. For example after getting the ultralisk cavern you still need to get an upgrade for them. Terrans have quite a lot of time to build a good amount of ravens at the current state of the game, cause they have no hurry to transition into anything. If the zerg ever gets to ultras or brood lords, terran can easily have 4-5 ravens to HSM everything and finish the job with 4M. And because of scans you can always know how close zerg is to getting those T3 heavy hitters, so it should not come as a surprise. Wait, you're implying seekers are good vs Ultra? Wat? I rather have Marauders. HSM is worthless vs Ultras and BLs haven't seen much play in HOTS because of the infestor nerfs and metagame changes and not because of IMBA SEEKERS. PDD is worthless vs mutalingbling into Ultra, and Auto Turret...lolautoturret. My previous points still stand. IMO Ravens are much better used(and also harder to get) with Mech than bio, and like I said, a few Ravens won't do much for the Terran.
Autoturrets are the most annoying thing when deployed around expansions. I was merely pointing out that getting ravens is not that difficult for terran. You might remember that you play with the same units the entire game and only add more production and click the upgrade icons few times.
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On August 22 2013 02:23 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 02:16 MTAC wrote:And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt
Because of the time needed for a decent raven force to be produced, and because of the infrastructure you need to produce them.
Mass Raven is as stupid as it is strong. But having that is really hard. Much harder than having 3 or 4 vipers in your army. And before 12 to 16 of them. They're not really useful. All theses changes are bad, unecessary tweaks or stupid ones. Apart for OVI speed buff. Avoiding the real problems. I'm going back to BW imo. Zerg players are so used to unlocking unlimited and simultaneous production of a unit with a single tech building that they seem to forget this aspect of Terran design. These Terran units such as the Raven NEED to be really strong because of the long ass time to get the infrastructure up AND the production time is also pretty damn long. A t-lab starport costs 175/125 AND 75s seconds to build (50s if you have the t-lab beforehand) and that will let you make a single Raven at a time...ONE PER MINUTE. Not to mention Ravens are nearly useless in low numbers whereas 3~5 Vipers (40secs to build all of them) are all Zerg needs.
Because no player has ever played more than one race. Comments like this need to go.
I am so sorry that your tech takes multiple buildings to use. Thankfully, it also means it is harder to get rid of though. You see, different races are different and each style has its pros and cons.
Also, 1 raven with PDD is a game changer. 4 ravens is insane. 4 full energy ravens with PDD? That blocks 160 corruptor shots. You know, corruptors... the slow firing "anti-massive" AA that sucks against almost everything? You dont need 15 ravens. I dont know who is coming up with that number. The only time you get that much is if you are still on biomine and that is because you are floating gas if you take all the gas at your expansions.
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Ravens have no sinergy with fastplay and therefore bioplay.
1 medivac is far stronger with bio than 1 raven, AND you build them 2 at the 2/3 of the raven buildtime.
With sky, it have great conjonction. But skyterran is one if not the most gas heavy composition in the game, and also the one that takes the LONGER time to produce.
With mech. Well, except TvT mech is onnly used to turtle while building skyterran. So it has no point there.
With only a few numbers of ravens (something you don't build with more than 1 SP, otherwise is just a huge mineral/gas waste). You can't have "infinit" energy, P.D.D are static, and have no real use unless you have skyterran or a huge number of tanks, (something you have to avoid except TvT, sometimes avoid them completly).
Autoturrets, well, it's a joke? It's 3 range, 3 range with slow ravens, all your ground army blocking the way, agaist speedlots or lings and stuff. You never cast them, unless your opponnent is bad. And btw. They don't do anything. So wastinf your 4/5 ravens energy into autoturrets is just 4/5 ravens waster + SP production wasted, only for a defenss that isn't that great, while loosing all pretetion to attack since your money/supply is going into turtling mode.
When you have 20 ravens, it's something else, i agree. But when you have 20 ravens, you have skyterran; bioplay still don't fit with ravenplay, and mech is limited to thors and HB. When you ca afford this number of raven, you can afford vikings/banshee/BC as well, and they're better i every way. Faster/Flying/more effective.
4/5 raven is useless. 12+ is cool. The only time 4/5 ravens is great is whenn you're meching to deflect Ovi doom drop. But mech is gone, "there's just 3 tanks into skyterran".
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I agree with RabidDeer. Ravens have their use even in low numbers(one will detect burrowed units and creep). Ravens are good against almost every zerg unit except lings (they outrun HSM to often), its just really hard to use them against units like ultras, especially on creep. Remember ultras are 6 supply and not mobile, ravens are 2 and can fly. I think it takes 5 HSM to almost kill and ultra, 6 to overkill it and anything next to it! Watch some of avilo's twitch vods against zerg. If you can drop HSM on zerg units, while kiting with bio, you can even up the battle. Id say practice against AI or use unit tester to get used to using ravens with bio. That being said, it is very hard to use ravens against zerg, and it can all go horribly wrong in an instant with say a money fungle.
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At MTAC, making more than one TL starport vs hive tech is actually standard. It complements bio because of the gas bank and because mobility is very important with the new HSM. Players like Polt will get 2 extra starports as soon as its obvious zerg is turtling on hive tech. Lower leagues can usually make 4+ because they are floating money by late game. If you upgrade building range and armor, even auto turrets are decent at making quick walls to hide behind at chokes, a sort of terran version of FF (weak comparison i know). People don't see ravens in pro games because they are usually balanced on the edge of the 4M blade.
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On August 21 2013 17:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 15:49 larse wrote:
I think beside Korea, ZvT winrate is quite balanced. That lair to 3-3 suggestion is too overreacted.
TvP is the really broken matchup that needs to be fixed. The Season 3 Korean winrate TvP is about 30%. That's pretty broken. According to TLPD the Up & Downs went like this: TvZ: 9-4 PvZ: 10-9 TvP: 11-4 So both have ~30% (in a tiny, tiny number of games) in Season 3 up to now.
OK. But still TvP is broken as hell. I mean, 30%...
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On August 22 2013 04:25 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 17:21 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 15:49 larse wrote:
I think beside Korea, ZvT winrate is quite balanced. That lair to 3-3 suggestion is too overreacted.
TvP is the really broken matchup that needs to be fixed. The Season 3 Korean winrate TvP is about 30%. That's pretty broken. According to TLPD the Up & Downs went like this: TvZ: 9-4 PvZ: 10-9 TvP: 11-4 So both have ~30% (in a tiny, tiny number of games) in Season 3 up to now. OK. But still TvP is broken as hell. I mean, 30%...
So you're going to decide a matchup is imba from only 15 matches. wow.
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EPT
