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Call to Action: August 19 Balance Testing - Page 26

Forum Index > SC2 General
740 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 24 25 26 27 28 38 Next All
larse
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1611 Posts
August 21 2013 06:49 GMT
#501
I think beside Korea, ZvT winrate is quite balanced. That lair to 3-3 suggestion is too overreacted.

TvP is the really broken matchup that needs to be fixed. The Season 3 Korean winrate TvP is about 30%. That's pretty broken.
NightOfTheDead
Profile Joined August 2009
Lithuania1711 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-21 06:58:40
August 21 2013 06:58 GMT
#502
Don't nerf the mine damage(for the future), but increase gas cost to 50, so terran has to work harder in preserving them. That is all that is needed. And not Ultra life buff, but instead make them smaller or make them faster.
pieroog
Profile Joined June 2010
Poland146 Posts
August 21 2013 07:52 GMT
#503
fixing mech? as as protoss player, I'd propose nerfing immortal's stats along with lowering the overall cost of this unit. this would be WIN-WIN as immortals are too good per se, and still bad when it comes to massing (cost & time).

not to mention, they are being sniped very fast.
samurai80
Profile Joined November 2011
Japan4225 Posts
August 21 2013 07:52 GMT
#504
Overseer good
Ultralisk neutral
Vehicle uprgade wtf ??
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
August 21 2013 08:21 GMT
#505
On August 21 2013 15:49 larse wrote:
I think beside Korea, ZvT winrate is quite balanced. That lair to 3-3 suggestion is too overreacted.

TvP is the really broken matchup that needs to be fixed. The Season 3 Korean winrate TvP is about 30%. That's pretty broken.


According to TLPD the Up & Downs went like this:
TvZ: 9-4
PvZ: 10-9
TvP: 11-4
So both have ~30% (in a tiny, tiny number of games) in Season 3 up to now.
Shousan
Profile Joined March 2011
Mexico92 Posts
August 21 2013 08:28 GMT
#506
The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth base while Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.

People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...

I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...

I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Sissors
Profile Joined March 2012
1395 Posts
August 21 2013 08:30 GMT
#507
Btw what I noticed recently in some TvZ games, for example Scarlet vs Dream on ATC, was the zerg floating massive amounts of gas, way more than the terran.

Sadly I think following the logic of most zerg players, this means we are forced to nerf zergs. Since floating gas means your composition is mainly dependent on minerals, and that is automatically OP.
Decendos
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany1341 Posts
August 21 2013 08:38 GMT
#508
On August 21 2013 17:30 Sissors wrote:
Btw what I noticed recently in some TvZ games, for example Scarlet vs Dream on ATC, was the zerg floating massive amounts of gas, way more than the terran.

Sadly I think following the logic of most zerg players, this means we are forced to nerf zergs. Since floating gas means your composition is mainly dependent on minerals, and that is automatically OP.


agree, zerg needs mules to get enough mineral income to spend the gas. maybe as a spire upgrade so queens can spawn them?
Rabiator
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany3948 Posts
August 21 2013 08:39 GMT
#509
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote:
The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth base while Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.

People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...

I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...

I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.

Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.

+ Show Spoiler +
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.


The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.
lolfail9001
Profile Joined August 2013
Russian Federation40190 Posts
August 21 2013 08:41 GMT
#510
On August 21 2013 17:30 Sissors wrote:
Btw what I noticed recently in some TvZ games, for example Scarlet vs Dream on ATC, was the zerg floating massive amounts of gas, way more than the terran.

Sadly I think following the logic of most zerg players, this means we are forced to nerf zergs. Since floating gas means your composition is mainly dependent on minerals, and that is automatically OP.

I love how you give sample size of exactly one game.
DeMoN pulls off a Miracle and Flies to the Moon
Nekovivie
Profile Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2599 Posts
August 21 2013 08:44 GMT
#511
Ultralisks gonna be living up to their name even more :D
If you are not supporting K-Pop you are hurting E-Sports.
rEdEEmEd
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada68 Posts
August 21 2013 08:45 GMT
#512
What would be so nice about terran upgrade is this...

- Remove the Engeneering bay.
- Armory is the new setting for terran upgrade.
- You can add tech lab or reactor to Armory.
- You can research more specific upgrades for buildings (techlab) or you can research 2 upgrade at a time for units.
- Would create build like bio/mech composition
And, well….he’s Jaedong. And because he’s Jaedong, he is probably pretty damn sick of 2nd places. And because he’s Jaedong, and he’s sick of 2nd places, he might just hit SSJ (Super Sayain Jaedong) level 2 and kill everybody. -Artosis
rEdEEmEd
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada68 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-21 08:46:44
August 21 2013 08:46 GMT
#513
On August 21 2013 17:41 lolfail9001 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2013 17:30 Sissors wrote:
Btw what I noticed recently in some TvZ games, for example Scarlet vs Dream on ATC, was the zerg floating massive amounts of gas, way more than the terran.

Sadly I think following the logic of most zerg players, this means we are forced to nerf zergs. Since floating gas means your composition is mainly dependent on minerals, and that is automatically OP.

I love how you give sample size of exactly one game.


haha true!
And, well….he’s Jaedong. And because he’s Jaedong, he is probably pretty damn sick of 2nd places. And because he’s Jaedong, and he’s sick of 2nd places, he might just hit SSJ (Super Sayain Jaedong) level 2 and kill everybody. -Artosis
TheRabidDeer
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States3806 Posts
August 21 2013 08:53 GMT
#514
On August 21 2013 17:39 Rabiator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote:
The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth base while Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.

People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...

I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...

I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.

Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.

+ Show Spoiler +
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.


The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.

The only reason BC's have ever been "bad" against zerg is because they are 0-0 upgrades in the lategame. BC's, ravens and ghosts are all viable in the late game for terran though, really.

I wouldnt mind seeing cloaked ghost queen sniping into tech nuking. 2 nukes kills any tech building. Send in 5 or 6 ghosts while turtling, kill the main + nat + 3rd + macro hatch queen -> nuke all the tech.
openbox1
Profile Joined March 2011
1393 Posts
August 21 2013 08:56 GMT
#515
On August 21 2013 15:00 OPL3SA2 wrote:
guys will you please stop suggesting things? Blizzard is gonna read this post , and therefore be unable to implement any of your suggestions. Someone suggested changing the protoss upgrade colors to match every other race in the production tab, and Blizzard had to make it green because someone had already suggested red. Think about this example before you go laying out your awesome ideas that would actually make a lot of sense


Man's got a point. lol
playa
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1284 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-21 08:58:09
August 21 2013 08:57 GMT
#516
Would it be possible to only have a 550 HP ultra in T vs Z, meanwhile having 500 HP ultra in other mu's? I just think it's unfair to end up with a less balanced mu, for the sake of trying to make another mu more balanced. These kinda buffs call for counter measures. No unit needs a HP buff less than the Ultra. The mine is so amazingly designed that most of the changes implemented/suggested are due to 1 unit.... just so amazing. God forbid they were to tweak the root cause.
Shousan
Profile Joined March 2011
Mexico92 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-21 09:02:51
August 21 2013 09:01 GMT
#517
On August 21 2013 17:39 Rabiator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote:
The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth base while Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.

People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...

I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...

I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.

Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.

+ Show Spoiler +
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.


The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.


I agree that. T has a nonexistent T3 (or a pretty weird one) but somehow that works just fine because they start working towards their best composition since medivacs come out and 3/3 becomes the tipping point when Zergs muta ling bling can't compete with the Terran army. I'm ok with this since muta ling bling is a mid game composition and should be complemented with T3 units, the problem is the little gap between those things (a gap that Terran doesn't have) and giving +50HP to Ultras doesn't really address IMO ...
MiCroLiFe
Profile Joined March 2012
Norway275 Posts
August 21 2013 09:28 GMT
#518
We’re already seeing the Viper energy increase from the last balance test map change timing attacks a lot more than we expected. We could revisit a lesser version of this change in the future, but for now we want to focus on helping out the Zerg in late game TvZ. We’ve said before that during late game TvZ, Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.”

WOW? easy to manage? WOW. when do we terrans get some unit thats easy to manage and we can A move to win vs any ground army? zerg army are easy enough to controll...

and ultralisk is one of the core problem lategame tvz.. they are to strong... ONLY whit heavy maraduers you can win.. and how can you suddnely make many of those whit one or two techlabs? when you see 10 ultras suddenly on the map..

GJ blizzard buffing the alredy strongest race..
Im Terran. Yes i will balance whine somethimes. And thats how we terrans survive, Hoping for balance patches<3
erezzun
Profile Joined August 2013
Vietnam2 Posts
August 21 2013 09:45 GMT
#519
How about bringing back Insta fungal?
I'm not sure how it affects to zvp meta, in zvz it is not problem because of less muta play after spore buff
lolfail9001
Profile Joined August 2013
Russian Federation40190 Posts
August 21 2013 09:49 GMT
#520
On August 21 2013 18:28 MiCroLiFe wrote:
We’re already seeing the Viper energy increase from the last balance test map change timing attacks a lot more than we expected. We could revisit a lesser version of this change in the future, but for now we want to focus on helping out the Zerg in late game TvZ. We’ve said before that during late game TvZ, Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.”

WOW? easy to manage? WOW. when do we terrans get some unit thats easy to manage and we can A move to win vs any ground army? zerg army are easy enough to controll...

and ultralisk is one of the core problem lategame tvz.. they are to strong... ONLY whit heavy maraduers you can win.. and how can you suddnely make many of those whit one or two techlabs? when you see 10 ultras suddenly on the map..

GJ blizzard buffing the alredy strongest race..

Except that zergs kinda do not get to survive until ultras most of time, without some brilliance or blunder from terran in midgame.
DeMoN pulls off a Miracle and Flies to the Moon
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