Call to Action: August 19 Balance Testing - Page 22

Penev

28481 Posts

August 20 2013 20:42 GMT

#421

On August 21 2013 05:33 Godwrath wrote:

I will tell you about the other strat of the terran to deal with ultralisks. It is subtle and requires a lot of starsense.
Moar marauders.

Just to make myself clear; I was just trying to follow Blizzards thinking and I think it must've been (something like) this.
I'm not saying these changes will make 4M go away.

dabom88

United States3483 Posts

August 20 2013 20:42 GMT

#422

We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.

So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.

Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.

The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.

And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling

Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.

So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.

So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?

Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.

It seems a lot fairer to just require an Infestation Pit, since it fits more with the other races. Terrans are going to get a Factory anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 just require one step above that, which is an Armory. Protoss are absolutely going to get a Cybernetics Core anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 are just one step above that, which is a Twilight Council.

If Zergs are going to be going Lair in the midgame anyway, just let them be okay with 1 step above that, Infestation Pit. In this case, 3/3 will serve as a nice transition to Hive tech instead of Hive being a risky transition to 3/3.

i.e. it'll make it so that the Zerg 3/3 upgrades require the same amount of tier steps as Terran and Protoss.

Terran:
1. Command Center
2. Barracks
3. Factory
4. Armory.

Protoss:
1. Nexus
2. Gateway
3. Cyber Core
4. Twilight Council

Zerg
1. Hatchery
2. Spawning Pool
3. Lair
4. Infestation Pit.

playa

United States1284 Posts

August 20 2013 20:42 GMT

#423

Did they just give the tankiest unit in the game a health buff? Not only a unit that doesn't die, as is, but often times is accompanied by mass queens, giving it invincibility... I think immortals should do more damage against armored units! I also think archons should do more damage against bio! Make the colossus taller, too! Maybe SC 2 truly is dying, because apparently the designers/balancers no longer have a desire to play any games, either.

Grumbels

Netherlands7031 Posts

August 20 2013 20:45 GMT

#424

I wonder why they're not changing contaminate, it seems like it would be in line with all of Blizzard's various balance philosophies: promoting underused units/abilities, adding more multitasking to the game. And it also has the potential to let zerg delay terran 3/3 upgrades like a poster above mentioned.

theBlues

El Salvador638 Posts

August 20 2013 20:46 GMT

#425

I wish they would make the ultralisks have that skill that abominations have in the campaign, I remember it was called limber or something like that, it meant that small units could walk under it without colliding. It would make ultraling a lot more powerful.

shubcraft

Germany145 Posts

August 20 2013 20:47 GMT

#426

When going for 3/3 at infestation pit, what about adrenaline glands? And is it regularly used anyway?

BlueBoxSC

United States582 Posts

August 20 2013 20:49 GMT

#427

Ultralisks weren't already hard enough to deal with as Terran. /s

Making Zerg late game tech switches better when it's already the best in game isn't going to fix the problems in TvZ. Changes to widow mines or Zerg mid game need to happen, not ultra buffs.

dabom88

United States3483 Posts

August 20 2013 20:51 GMT

#428

On August 21 2013 05:47 shubcraft wrote:

Show nested quote +

When going for 3/3 at infestation pit, what about adrenaline glands? And is it regularly used anyway?

Keep everything else the same, including keeping Adrenaline Glands at Hive. Zergs should have SOME incentive to actually go to Hive instead of keeping at Ling/Bling/Muta all game long. Well, you know, some incentive besides Binding Cloud, that is.

I have never seen an argument that Adrenal Glands aren't good enough. For the most part, a lot of pros consistently seem to just forget about Adrenal Glands in the late game for some reason.

GhostOwl

766 Posts

August 20 2013 20:52 GMT

#429

On August 21 2013 05:49 BlueBoxSC wrote:
Ultralisks weren't already hard enough to deal with as Terran. /s

Making Zerg late game tech switches better when it's already the best in game isn't going to fix the problems in TvZ. Changes to widow mines or Zerg mid game need to happen, not ultra buffs.

I agree. Either nerf some part of 4M, or buff Zerg mid game units to be able to stand its own verses Terran. Ultra buffs are kind of unnecessary. They do help make TvZ a little more close to balanced, but still doesn't fix the glaring problem of T army just destroying Z army in terms of cost efficiency if combined with good micro on both sides.

Advocado

Denmark994 Posts

August 20 2013 20:53 GMT

#430

I feel like a duration increase on fungal would be healthy so that infestion pit vs. drops would be easier on the zerg. It doesn't need more dmg so keep it where it is.

Godwrath

Spain10126 Posts

August 20 2013 20:55 GMT

#431

On August 21 2013 05:42 Penev wrote:

Show nested quote +

Just to make myself clear; I was just trying to follow Blizzards thinking and I think it must've been (something like) this.
I'm not saying these changes will make 4M go away.

Oh, that explains it then.
They should just fucking revert tank to their original status, remove drilling claws and allow 3/3 on lair tech imho. Drilling claws were added for high end tvp anyways.

Penev

28481 Posts

August 20 2013 20:57 GMT

#432

Zerg would be a lot more cost effective against 4M if ling/bling/muta/infestor was feasible. But to do that this composition should cost less gas. Or the upgrades. So where to put the gas discount?

ConGee

318 Posts

August 20 2013 21:01 GMT

#433

On August 21 2013 05:47 shubcraft wrote:

Show nested quote +

When going for 3/3 at infestation pit, what about adrenaline glands? And is it regularly used anyway?

Keep adrenal glands at Hive. It's an incredible DPS boost to any zergling based composition.

Exquisite

United States11 Posts

August 20 2013 21:03 GMT

#434

On August 20 2013 13:48 Hoon wrote:

Show nested quote +

What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one?

No. It means that zerg have many tasks in the specific match up of ling/bling/muta vs bio/mine of:
Queen injection
Making sure to always have banelings ready
Keeping an eye on terran forces moving out
Constructing overseers/ keeping them alive

With this specific Terran composition (assuming your economy was established well enough towards the end of the mid game) mostly you are just macroing and focusing on different skirmishes throughout the map. There are fewer minor tasks to keep in mind as terran. With these compositions against each other, zerg definitely has more to worry about. The overseer buff just helps because the minor task of rebuilding overseers is way less of a hassle. Not a big difference but definitely fair.

BlueBoxSC

United States582 Posts

August 20 2013 21:04 GMT

#435

On August 21 2013 06:01 ConGee wrote:

Show nested quote +

Keep adrenal glands at Hive. It's an incredible DPS boost to any zergling based composition.

Moreso than 3/3?

Jermstuddog

United States2231 Posts

August 20 2013 21:07 GMT

#436

On August 21 2013 05:51 dabom88 wrote:

Show nested quote +

There are plenty of arguments about Adrenal Glands not being good enough. Here's a few:

Adrenal glands costs 200/200 and provides Zerglings and ONLY Zerglings with a minor DPS buff when they stand still.

Problem 1) Zerglings rarely have the opportunity to stand still when fighting against a kiting bio army, so the reduction in attack speed cooldown is useless in this scenario.

Problem 2) for the same cost of 200/200 I can get +3 melee which gives me MORE, UNCONDITIONAL damage than adrenal glands.

Problem 3) +3 melee affects Zerglings, Banelings, Ultralisks, and Broodlings, making it not only the better choice, but also a far more flexible choice.

Problem 4) Gas is a precious resource. When I have to spend 25 gas per baneling, 100 gas per mutalisk, 150 gas per infestor, 200 gas per ultralisk, and 250 gas per brood lord, and all this gas is used to counter a 50 mineral unit that gets pumped out literally by the dozen, I don't exactly have 200 gas lying around begging to be used on upgrades, especially the useless ones.

Pros don't forget about the upgrade, it's just so terrible, it's not worth investing in until after you have Ultralisks, Chitinous Plating, a Greater Spire, air upgrades, and all the T3 units you want. At that point, it MIGHT be worth investing the 200 gas in a minorly useful Zergling attack speed upgrade.

The same goes for the other options that people love to point to like Nydus (300 gas for the first worm), drops (200 gas just to turn the ability on), and to a lesser extent, burrow.

It's not that these abilities are useless, it's that nobody can afford them with the huge economic investment required to fight 4M armies.

movac

Canada494 Posts

August 20 2013 21:08 GMT

#437

I think they should really look at the infestor. Right now it's really only good for fungal. For the purpose of targeting single units, abduct seems make Neural parasite useless. Also while infested terrans were a problem in the past, I think the strategy of throwing mass eggs at expansions was fun to watch. Perhaps they could play around with the idea bring back the upgrades on the infested terrans, but thinker the damage a bit. 1 way they could go about it is either reduce the starting damage to 7 or 6. Another way is to double the damage to 16 but double the cool down, that way the 0/0 damage is the same, but they get half the dps increase from upgrades.

Exquisite

United States11 Posts

August 20 2013 21:08 GMT

#438

On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote:
We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.

So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.

Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.

The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.

And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling

Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.

So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.

So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?

Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.

It seems a lot fairer to just require an Infestation Pit, since it fits more with the other races. Terrans are going to get a Factory anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 just require one step above that, which is an Armory. Protoss are absolutely going to get a Cybernetics Core anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 are just one step above that, which is a Twilight Council.

If Zergs are going to be going Lair in the midgame anyway, just let them be okay with 1 step above that, Infestation Pit. In this case, 3/3 will serve as a nice transition to Hive tech instead of Hive being a risky transition to 3/3.

i.e. it'll make it so that the Zerg 3/3 upgrades require the same amount of tier steps as Terran and Protoss.

Terran:
1. Command Center
2. Barracks
3. Factory
4. Armory.

Protoss:
1. Nexus
2. Gateway
3. Cyber Core
4. Twilight Council

Zerg
1. Hatchery
2. Spawning Pool
3. Lair
4. Infestation Pit.

Well said! Seriously. You're right on point exactly where zerg struggles and terran bio. Its really difficult to get 3/3 for zerg and get a midgame flock of mutas. Not to mention the gas invested into banes to stay alive.

Incognoto

France10239 Posts

August 20 2013 21:09 GMT

#439

On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:
Its funny, I used to be a whiner too.

For people who seem to be hopeless, why don't you just think about the situation for a little bit.

What's hard for Bio players? In high level PvT games, constant late game zealot warpins are extremely difficult to deal with because you have to stutter step on 2 Fronts. Which requires an ungodly level of APM.

Overlord speed buff: You will probably get it now, why not use it with overseers. You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.

Now, you have more than 2 minutes of breathing room to sneak a hive and ultra den up earlier. Survive for just a little bit longer, and get ventral sacs.

Then since you have OL speed already, drop overlords with ultras 1 or 2 at a time to camp terran production. Now terran has to multitask at 2 fronts if you attack. Mutalisk harass. 3 Fronts. Ling/Bling runby. 4 fronts. See how hard it gets now?

Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way.

Are you really actually telling us to use ultralisk drop harass?

amazing