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Penev
28512 Posts
On August 21 2013 05:33 Godwrath wrote: I will tell you about the other strat of the terran to deal with ultralisks. It is subtle and requires a lot of starsense. Moar marauders. Just to make myself clear; I was just trying to follow Blizzards thinking and I think it must've been (something like) this. I'm not saying these changes will make 4M go away. | ||
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dabom88
United States3483 Posts
So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame. Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT. The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it. And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit. So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor. So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier? Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor. It seems a lot fairer to just require an Infestation Pit, since it fits more with the other races. Terrans are going to get a Factory anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 just require one step above that, which is an Armory. Protoss are absolutely going to get a Cybernetics Core anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 are just one step above that, which is a Twilight Council. If Zergs are going to be going Lair in the midgame anyway, just let them be okay with 1 step above that, Infestation Pit. In this case, 3/3 will serve as a nice transition to Hive tech instead of Hive being a risky transition to 3/3. i.e. it'll make it so that the Zerg 3/3 upgrades require the same amount of tier steps as Terran and Protoss. Terran: 1. Command Center 2. Barracks 3. Factory 4. Armory. Protoss: 1. Nexus 2. Gateway 3. Cyber Core 4. Twilight Council Zerg 1. Hatchery 2. Spawning Pool 3. Lair 4. Infestation Pit. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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theBlues
El Salvador638 Posts
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shubcraft
Germany145 Posts
On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote: We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around. So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame. Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT. The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it. And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit. So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor. So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier? Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor. When going for 3/3 at infestation pit, what about adrenaline glands? And is it regularly used anyway? | ||
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BlueBoxSC
United States582 Posts
Making Zerg late game tech switches better when it's already the best in game isn't going to fix the problems in TvZ. Changes to widow mines or Zerg mid game need to happen, not ultra buffs. | ||
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dabom88
United States3483 Posts
On August 21 2013 05:47 shubcraft wrote: When going for 3/3 at infestation pit, what about adrenaline glands? And is it regularly used anyway? Keep everything else the same, including keeping Adrenaline Glands at Hive. Zergs should have SOME incentive to actually go to Hive instead of keeping at Ling/Bling/Muta all game long. Well, you know, some incentive besides Binding Cloud, that is. I have never seen an argument that Adrenal Glands aren't good enough. For the most part, a lot of pros consistently seem to just forget about Adrenal Glands in the late game for some reason. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On August 21 2013 05:49 BlueBoxSC wrote: Ultralisks weren't already hard enough to deal with as Terran. /s Making Zerg late game tech switches better when it's already the best in game isn't going to fix the problems in TvZ. Changes to widow mines or Zerg mid game need to happen, not ultra buffs. I agree. Either nerf some part of 4M, or buff Zerg mid game units to be able to stand its own verses Terran. Ultra buffs are kind of unnecessary. They do help make TvZ a little more close to balanced, but still doesn't fix the glaring problem of T army just destroying Z army in terms of cost efficiency if combined with good micro on both sides. | ||
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10135 Posts
On August 21 2013 05:42 Penev wrote: Just to make myself clear; I was just trying to follow Blizzards thinking and I think it must've been (something like) this. I'm not saying these changes will make 4M go away. Oh, that explains it then. They should just fucking revert tank to their original status, remove drilling claws and allow 3/3 on lair tech imho. Drilling claws were added for high end tvp anyways. | ||
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Penev
28512 Posts
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ConGee
318 Posts
On August 21 2013 05:47 shubcraft wrote: When going for 3/3 at infestation pit, what about adrenaline glands? And is it regularly used anyway? Keep adrenal glands at Hive. It's an incredible DPS boost to any zergling based composition. | ||
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Exquisite
United States11 Posts
On August 20 2013 13:48 Hoon wrote: What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one? No. It means that zerg have many tasks in the specific match up of ling/bling/muta vs bio/mine of: Queen injection Making sure to always have banelings ready Keeping an eye on terran forces moving out Constructing overseers/ keeping them alive With this specific Terran composition (assuming your economy was established well enough towards the end of the mid game) mostly you are just macroing and focusing on different skirmishes throughout the map. There are fewer minor tasks to keep in mind as terran. With these compositions against each other, zerg definitely has more to worry about. The overseer buff just helps because the minor task of rebuilding overseers is way less of a hassle. Not a big difference but definitely fair. | ||
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BlueBoxSC
United States582 Posts
On August 21 2013 06:01 ConGee wrote: Keep adrenal glands at Hive. It's an incredible DPS boost to any zergling based composition. Moreso than 3/3? | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On August 21 2013 05:51 dabom88 wrote: Keep everything else the same, including keeping Adrenaline Glands at Hive. Zergs should have SOME incentive to actually go to Hive instead of keeping at Ling/Bling/Muta all game long. Well, you know, some incentive besides Binding Cloud, that is. I have never seen an argument that Adrenal Glands aren't good enough. For the most part, a lot of pros consistently seem to just forget about Adrenal Glands in the late game for some reason. There are plenty of arguments about Adrenal Glands not being good enough. Here's a few: Adrenal glands costs 200/200 and provides Zerglings and ONLY Zerglings with a minor DPS buff when they stand still. Problem 1) Zerglings rarely have the opportunity to stand still when fighting against a kiting bio army, so the reduction in attack speed cooldown is useless in this scenario. Problem 2) for the same cost of 200/200 I can get +3 melee which gives me MORE, UNCONDITIONAL damage than adrenal glands. Problem 3) +3 melee affects Zerglings, Banelings, Ultralisks, and Broodlings, making it not only the better choice, but also a far more flexible choice. Problem 4) Gas is a precious resource. When I have to spend 25 gas per baneling, 100 gas per mutalisk, 150 gas per infestor, 200 gas per ultralisk, and 250 gas per brood lord, and all this gas is used to counter a 50 mineral unit that gets pumped out literally by the dozen, I don't exactly have 200 gas lying around begging to be used on upgrades, especially the useless ones. Pros don't forget about the upgrade, it's just so terrible, it's not worth investing in until after you have Ultralisks, Chitinous Plating, a Greater Spire, air upgrades, and all the T3 units you want. At that point, it MIGHT be worth investing the 200 gas in a minorly useful Zergling attack speed upgrade. The same goes for the other options that people love to point to like Nydus (300 gas for the first worm), drops (200 gas just to turn the ability on), and to a lesser extent, burrow. It's not that these abilities are useless, it's that nobody can afford them with the huge economic investment required to fight 4M armies. | ||
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movac
Canada494 Posts
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Exquisite
United States11 Posts
On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote: We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around. So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame. Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT. The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it. And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit. So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor. So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier? Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor. It seems a lot fairer to just require an Infestation Pit, since it fits more with the other races. Terrans are going to get a Factory anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 just require one step above that, which is an Armory. Protoss are absolutely going to get a Cybernetics Core anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 are just one step above that, which is a Twilight Council. If Zergs are going to be going Lair in the midgame anyway, just let them be okay with 1 step above that, Infestation Pit. In this case, 3/3 will serve as a nice transition to Hive tech instead of Hive being a risky transition to 3/3. i.e. it'll make it so that the Zerg 3/3 upgrades require the same amount of tier steps as Terran and Protoss. Terran: 1. Command Center 2. Barracks 3. Factory 4. Armory. Protoss: 1. Nexus 2. Gateway 3. Cyber Core 4. Twilight Council Zerg 1. Hatchery 2. Spawning Pool 3. Lair 4. Infestation Pit. Well said! Seriously. You're right on point exactly where zerg struggles and terran bio. Its really difficult to get 3/3 for zerg and get a midgame flock of mutas. Not to mention the gas invested into banes to stay alive. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: Its funny, I used to be a whiner too. For people who seem to be hopeless, why don't you just think about the situation for a little bit. What's hard for Bio players? In high level PvT games, constant late game zealot warpins are extremely difficult to deal with because you have to stutter step on 2 Fronts. Which requires an ungodly level of APM. Overlord speed buff: You will probably get it now, why not use it with overseers. You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds. Now, you have more than 2 minutes of breathing room to sneak a hive and ultra den up earlier. Survive for just a little bit longer, and get ventral sacs. Then since you have OL speed already, drop overlords with ultras 1 or 2 at a time to camp terran production. Now terran has to multitask at 2 fronts if you attack. Mutalisk harass. 3 Fronts. Ling/Bling runby. 4 fronts. See how hard it gets now? Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way. Are you really actually telling us to use ultralisk drop harass? amazing | ||
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BlueBoxSC
United States582 Posts
On August 21 2013 06:09 Incognoto wrote: Are you really actually telling us to use ultralisk drop harass? amazing I think we have found Catz' TL account. | ||
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