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On August 21 2013 03:01 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
With the overseer speed buff, zergs have it easy: just contaminate e-bays to delay 3-3. Match-up totally solved.
hehe yeah only 1 overseer per 30 sec to contaminate would only require like 14 or so to do it all time + thats T not denying it once. nice theorycraft though  and obv only 700 gas which is basically exactly the amount to get +3 +3 yourself :D
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Hahahaha, that Ultralisk face on the banner is so funny.
ALMSOT AS FUNNY AS THIS PATCH </mandatory whining>
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On August 21 2013 03:02 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 02:34 Rabiator wrote:On August 21 2013 02:28 Henk wrote:
The removal of drilling claws would actually make a lot of sense. It's almost impossible to get caught out of position when your siege weapons have a deployment time of only one second. Range 5 is a siege weapon? Really???? On August 21 2013 02:33 wage wrote:
What about making the infestor 100/100 instead of 100/150, so you need slightly less gas to transition to hive. Or remove Pathogen Glands and increase the starting energy of the infestor. It would only be 150 gas less, but on the other hand thats a Hive. Massive numbers of Infestors were bad in the past and if they were made cheaper it would become viable again ... even after the nerf both Fungal and Infested Terran received. Bad idea. The current infestor would not be viable to mass even if it was 50/50 and 1 supply. They just don't have any DPS anymore and can't kill stuff by their own unless supplys are very low.
The Infestor isn't actually much weaker in and of itself than it was in WoL in ZvT (Infested Terran nerf was huge, the Fungal nerf only made fungal slightly harder to use since you had to predict your opponent's unit movement but contrary to popular belief the projectile moves too quickly for Terran to reactively dodge, they need to anticipate when it's going to be cast and juke out of the way, and fungal still does the same damage to light units).
The main reason the Ling / Infestor midgame style isn't still used is because widow mines are actually good vs lings unlike siege tanks (which even if sieged, if the zerg opponent attacked from more than one angle or from one angle on creep would get demolished) and the Medivac speed boost makes it easier for Terran to abuse the immobility of Infestors. Infestors never beat a Terran army on their own, they had huge numbers of heavily upgraded lings assisting them. If Blizzard got rid of widow mines, I feel certain Zerg would return to using the ling / infestor style.
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On August 21 2013 03:24 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 03:02 Zheryn wrote:On August 21 2013 02:34 Rabiator wrote:On August 21 2013 02:28 Henk wrote:
The removal of drilling claws would actually make a lot of sense. It's almost impossible to get caught out of position when your siege weapons have a deployment time of only one second. Range 5 is a siege weapon? Really???? On August 21 2013 02:33 wage wrote:
What about making the infestor 100/100 instead of 100/150, so you need slightly less gas to transition to hive. Or remove Pathogen Glands and increase the starting energy of the infestor. It would only be 150 gas less, but on the other hand thats a Hive. Massive numbers of Infestors were bad in the past and if they were made cheaper it would become viable again ... even after the nerf both Fungal and Infested Terran received. Bad idea. The current infestor would not be viable to mass even if it was 50/50 and 1 supply. They just don't have any DPS anymore and can't kill stuff by their own unless supplys are very low. The Infestor isn't actually much weaker in and of itself than it was in WoL in ZvT (Infested Terran nerf was huge, the Fungal nerf only made fungal slightly harder to use since you had to predict your opponent's unit movement but contrary to popular belief the projectile moves too quickly for Terran to reactively dodge, they need to anticipate when it's going to be cast and juke out of the way, and fungal still does the same damage to light units). The main reason the Ling / Infestor midgame style isn't still used is because widow mines are actually good vs lings unlike siege tanks (which even if sieged, if the zerg opponent attacked from more than one angle or from one angle on creep would get demolished) and the Medivac speed boost makes it easier for Terran to abuse the immobility of Infestors. Infestors never beat a Terran army on their own, they had huge numbers of heavily upgraded lings assisting them. If Blizzard got rid of widow mines, I feel certain Zerg would return to using the ling / infestor style.
Infested Terran's have been nerfed to the point where it's actually a redundant ability. It's like when they were trying to kill off the mothership and nerfed vortex to only affect one non-massive unit, it may as well just be removed from them.
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i dont like the ultra buff, would rather see the infestor fungal missle speed increased. liking the mech change though for terran
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20 pages is a lot to tread through. Does anyone who has read all of it know if any pros who have tested these changes have commented on them yet? Everything else is just a bunch of theorycraft/speculative shit
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On August 21 2013 03:30 Greendotz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 03:24 Pursuit_ wrote:On August 21 2013 03:02 Zheryn wrote:On August 21 2013 02:34 Rabiator wrote:On August 21 2013 02:28 Henk wrote:
The removal of drilling claws would actually make a lot of sense. It's almost impossible to get caught out of position when your siege weapons have a deployment time of only one second. Range 5 is a siege weapon? Really???? On August 21 2013 02:33 wage wrote:
What about making the infestor 100/100 instead of 100/150, so you need slightly less gas to transition to hive. Or remove Pathogen Glands and increase the starting energy of the infestor. It would only be 150 gas less, but on the other hand thats a Hive. Massive numbers of Infestors were bad in the past and if they were made cheaper it would become viable again ... even after the nerf both Fungal and Infested Terran received. Bad idea. The current infestor would not be viable to mass even if it was 50/50 and 1 supply. They just don't have any DPS anymore and can't kill stuff by their own unless supplys are very low. The Infestor isn't actually much weaker in and of itself than it was in WoL in ZvT (Infested Terran nerf was huge, the Fungal nerf only made fungal slightly harder to use since you had to predict your opponent's unit movement but contrary to popular belief the projectile moves too quickly for Terran to reactively dodge, they need to anticipate when it's going to be cast and juke out of the way, and fungal still does the same damage to light units). The main reason the Ling / Infestor midgame style isn't still used is because widow mines are actually good vs lings unlike siege tanks (which even if sieged, if the zerg opponent attacked from more than one angle or from one angle on creep would get demolished) and the Medivac speed boost makes it easier for Terran to abuse the immobility of Infestors. Infestors never beat a Terran army on their own, they had huge numbers of heavily upgraded lings assisting them. If Blizzard got rid of widow mines, I feel certain Zerg would return to using the ling / infestor style. Infested Terran's have been nerfed to the point where it's actually a redundant ability. It's like when they were trying to kill off the mothership and nerfed vortex to only affect one non-massive unit, it may as well just be removed from them.
It's an energy dump emergency ability just like auto-turret for ravens. The spell was never meant to be the reason you build infestors, but infested terrans with 3-3 proved to be ridiculously strong.
I also agree with Pursuit that changes to terran were the real reason why lingfestor went out of style, and forcing infestor buffs isn't the right way to bring it back. Infestors have a smaller support role now much like every other caster, and its really not a problem.
On August 21 2013 03:35 FallDownMarigold wrote:
20 pages is a lot to tread through. Does anyone who has read all of it know if any pros who have tested these changes have commented on them yet? Everything else is just a bunch of theorycraft/speculative shit
Funnily I read this comment at the same time with Idras tweet wondering why they ever bother with these call to action maps.
Not sure if pros play them, but either way nothing conclusive can be made from a handful of games. It takes weeks or even months of metagame development to really see what a patch does.
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e. double post, please delete
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Overseer buff is fine, but the ultra buff is crazy talk.
I can't remember the last time I won a TvZ after ultras were out, unless I was ahead by 100+ pop already, and even then it was hard to hold.
Suffice to say I will be 2 base all in'ing every TvZ MVP style, to eliminate the chance of seeing ultras.
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I don't even see a reason why they would buff Ultras.
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I don't get blizzards mentality at all... Sure Z needs a buff, but these changes will do nothing.
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Meh, I'll wait to see if it impacts anything before making a judgement.
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Any buff Zerg can get at this point is a bonus in my book. Ultras melt like butter against marauders anyhow, so having them actually be a tank?
Fuck yeah. Even though in reality it will still do nothing and ultras will continue to MELT to marauders...
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Its funny, I used to be a whiner too.
For people who seem to be hopeless, why don't you just think about the situation for a little bit.
What's hard for Bio players? In high level PvT games, constant late game zealot warpins are extremely difficult to deal with because you have to stutter step on 2 Fronts. Which requires an ungodly level of APM.
Overlord speed buff: You will probably get it now, why not use it with overseers. You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.
Now, you have more than 2 minutes of breathing room to sneak a hive and ultra den up earlier. Survive for just a little bit longer, and get ventral sacs.
Then since you have OL speed already, drop overlords with ultras 1 or 2 at a time to camp terran production. Now terran has to multitask at 2 fronts if you attack. Mutalisk harass. 3 Fronts. Ling/Bling runby. 4 fronts. See how hard it gets now?
Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way.
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On August 20 2013 14:30 Thinasy wrote:
Brood Lord are Tier 3 units and yet they suck
oh my sides
you can't be serious
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Overseer buff is nice. Makes picking off mines out in the open more reasonable.
But Zerg's biggest issue is the midgame. Zerg has to defend against drops, and a 4M push in the front. Right now he has no tools to trade cost effectively against the 4M while staying alive against drops, and this patch will not change that
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I think buffing Ultralisk that is an already working unit is bad. Since hots I was very sad how the TvZ mu changed sinced terran have so many more options now and zergs new units mainly are good vs protoss. Since terran and protoss harassments are so much better nowdays it would be fun to see some more zerg harassments being viable. What I would like is to do 1 of the following changes:
1. Increase Hydra range from 6 to 7
2. Bring back parasite from BW instead of changelings and let overseers have that ability. Parasited units should also be counted as hostile units for mines.
3. I like the idea of bringing 3/3 upgrades to infestor tech.
4. Make corrupters morph to Vipers that wouldnt change the timeing so much since spire takes long time to make. But would be easier to get if you play Muta/Ling/BLing.
5. Increase range on nerual parasite and make mines explode on neural units.
6. Reduce cost/Increase effectiveness/hatchery tech of Overlord drop. To give zerg counter harassment tools.
7. Nerf mines radius
8. Make medivacs use energy when they speed up. that way they wont heal as good if they keep using speed all the time. It also would be easier to kill them after terran loosing a big fight since some of the medivacs would probably be without energy.
These are just some Idea that would make the game more fun.
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Upgrade changes for terran I dont mind but would rather see a reduced cost of armory.
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Vatican City State431 Posts
Blizzard: We want to see more mech so we buff the 2 zerg units that hardcounter mech: viper and Ultras! LOL! Good job David Kim! How many shoots are required for a tank to kill a Ultra now? It's getting ridiculous. What sane person thinks mech can be viable vs blinding cloud+Ultras? And the Protoss just needs mass Immortals and it's an autowin...
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On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:
Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way.
This is not what people want though. Having zerg weak until you get ultras and then its insta-win just creates boring, predictable games.
We want more games that are back-and-forth. Buff the race where its weak, not where its at its strongest.
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France947 Posts
I'm pretty sure the +50 buff only make the ultra survive less than 2 second more vs the 3/3 marauders + mines.
The problem is Zerg enter in the late game with a huge desavantage cause they have taken a lot of dommage in the mid game. And Zerg have like no option of harass in this matchup (just some all-in/cheese). Plz improve drop/nyndus that is not competitive.
Nyndus buff, can be used for defending the drop with a roach/hydra play vs Terran. Decrease the cost of a new network and the building speed when casted on creep for example.
All the zerg have is mutalisk. They need 10-20 to do a little dommage but the dammage deals is nearly always less than what they cost. Moreover, as they very weak on frontal fight, mutalisk is most of the time a lot of mineral/gaz wasted.
Defending drop is also an issue, the zerg building are very weak. A few zelotes/marinnes kill hatch/major building, even if the whole zerg army come to defend, most of the time the drop has the time to kill the building. Could be interesting the building take the + armor of the carapace upgrade when research.
Corruptor change is needed. This units is a must have vs toss army but void/storm counter then so effectivly. Could be interesting corruption interrupt void charge/medivac boost.
Broodlords are aslo too slow, they need some speedboost or ability to remorph into corruptor, or a decreased of the energy grap when casted on allied units could be cool.
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EPT
