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On August 20 2013 23:57 PXEnTei wrote:
NO ULTRA BUFF. they already dont die, they are the strongest thing zerg has. buff other things, or also nerf damage
I play terran, and when a zerg can get to 3-5 ultras with a surounding army. thats when the game gets reallllllly hard. Once people start making like 4 infestors along with everthing it will be seen how good they are. bling ultra fungal is really good. I normaly think buffing is better than nerfing, but in terms of this, i think a mine nerf would be better.
When the game starts it´s the point when it gets hard for zerg. My sympathy is quite limited.
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On August 21 2013 01:35 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 01:19 Incognoto wrote:On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame. At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance. RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance. Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched. SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves. Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player. It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up. I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable. Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed. An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta.
come on, he is not talking about nerfing zerglings or buffing colossi.
He is talking about buffing ohter stuff that is not used a lot currently. You know, that does not kill any of the current strategies in itself. It just gives alternatives and well, if those alternatives prove to be useful and get figured out, then you will have to adapt a little bit with the old strategies. But it's not like he/we want to rebalance everything. Just have a patch at the end of the season that does more than "hm, there might be a tiny problem in TvZ, let's buff the ultralisk that everybody is using already so that it works out a tiny bit better for Zerg." or stuff like that.
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On August 21 2013 01:22 manniefresh wrote:
To me, the biggest problem with TvZ right now is Drilling Claws. Allowing a unit to "siege up" in 1 second is ridiculous, and it means that Widow Mines are never caught out of position like siege tanks can be. This reduces strategy and slow pushes with widow mines, and allows 4M to charge forward and burrow when attacked. The Drilling Claws upgrade needs to go and hang out with the Khaydarin Amulet in the OP pit of loneliness.
Interesting point, especially in comparison to siege tank. Another option would be a decrease on mines´ hitpoints, so they can be taken out wasier before they get off.
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Read the testmap changes, thought about them while reading through the thread comments, looking for level headed discussion. Was disappointed, went and ate lunch.
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On August 21 2013 01:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:35 Incognoto wrote:On August 21 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 01:19 Incognoto wrote:On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame. At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance. RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance. Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched. SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves. Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player. It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up. I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable. Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed. An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta. Sorry, I checked out with the phrase "Mobas are easy as shit to balance". I don't know where people got the idea that Dota 2 is easy to balance with 100+ heroes and complex drafting system. But that is another topic. The first comment was about "quality of life patch" which is a term used in LoL when they change an under played hero to bring them back into the game. It is a good idea for SC2 as well. The changes don't need to be huge and should focus on under used units to bring them back into use in some fashion. Just changing the way the nydus loads and unloads might be enough of a buff for people to use it. Also, fuck changing Warpgate and force fields. I might as well ask for them to change marines so they arn't the best snow ball unit in the game that is only countered by AOEs. We would also beat a dead horse too, but that won't get us anywhere either. We don't change thing people are using all the time.
That was my main point actually. Looks like we agree. Changes that "aren't huge" and that focus on "under used units" aren't changes that would reset the meta-game, it would simply have the meta-game evolve.
As long as patches don't reset the meta, then it's fine. My point was that big ass changes that reset the meta would do an RTS way more harm than good.
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh.
^That is different from buffing under used units.
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On August 21 2013 01:35 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 01:19 Incognoto wrote:On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame. At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance. RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance. Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched. SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves. Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player. It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up. I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable. Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed. An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta.
Since you mentioned the banshee buff, I'd argue it most certainly changed the meta of TvT. Just since you make it sound like you really need a big change for the meta to shift.
In any case, I think putting 3/3 on lair tech and balancing from that POV(might need a Z nerf after dust has settled from that change) would be much smarter than buffing ultras, which are already pretty damn scary. The current 4M style really revolves around not giving zerg a breather to get 3/3 and that is the biggest problem imo.
Generally Z and T hit 2/2 at similar time, T infrastructure is up and running and while 3/3 costs essentiall 10 marine for T, Z simply can't get enough gas for all the upgrades while also staying alive. Then T just pressures and eventually if T has strong mechanics he can just keep trading cost effectively, esp when 3/3 has hit.
I'd personally also like a bit more revival of casters in TvZ. Infestor is a hit and miss atm, vipers suck against 4M(and are way to strong imo against mech) and ravens... kind of suck for TvZ(well there's very little you can atleast HSM in the standard Z army). All these units are so "all or nothing" which makes them risky to produce. Perhaps not a desperately needed change for them, but there could also be improvements there.
So yeah:
1. I don't mind this change, but I don't feel it will accomplish much outside TvT
2. I don't mind this change, though I don't feel this is really a straight up balance problem, and rather lowering the skill ceiling for zerg.
3. I find just stupid and feel it's on par with fixing the midgame dominance of T in TvP WoL by buffing hts. When you have ultras out is the time the dust has already started settling, the problem is before that point.
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On August 21 2013 01:53 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:44 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 01:35 Incognoto wrote:On August 21 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 01:19 Incognoto wrote:On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame. At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance. RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance. Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched. SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves. Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player. It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up. I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable. Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed. An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta. Sorry, I checked out with the phrase "Mobas are easy as shit to balance". I don't know where people got the idea that Dota 2 is easy to balance with 100+ heroes and complex drafting system. But that is another topic. The first comment was about "quality of life patch" which is a term used in LoL when they change an under played hero to bring them back into the game. It is a good idea for SC2 as well. The changes don't need to be huge and should focus on under used units to bring them back into use in some fashion. Just changing the way the nydus loads and unloads might be enough of a buff for people to use it. Also, fuck changing Warpgate and force fields. I might as well ask for them to change marines so they arn't the best snow ball unit in the game that is only countered by AOEs. We would also beat a dead horse too, but that won't get us anywhere either. We don't change thing people are using all the time. That was my main point actually. Looks like we agree. Changes that "aren't huge" and that focus on "under used units" aren't changes that would reset the meta-game, it would simply have the meta-game evolve. As long as patches don't reset the meta, then it's fine. My point was that big ass changes that reset the meta would do an RTS way more harm than good.
And to be fair, Dota and LoL don't do that either. They focus on stuff that has fall out of favor or was just never used, rather than trying to "fix" stuff that is already awesome. And when I say "break everything" I mean that no one knows what is the best any more, so they have to try out the new stuff.
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there needs to be a buff to the midgame Zerg... doesn't mean ultras... t1 to tier 2 vs t1 to tier 2 units is the most exciting to watch from a viewer stand point. t3 vs t3 is pretty much a unit composition fight/and or casting fight. This only pertains to TvZ.
I think making the transition easier for Zerg gives Zerg and imbalance because the transition for Terran is not equal. I also don't believe you should be able to transition if you are consistently trade efficiently because both players are in the same place. If there is a lull in the game then transition, otherwise it shouldn't be an option.
I think buffing the scouting potential is a good step but a lot of the problems I see is Zerg aren't making enough hatcheries to support the ling bling muta style, or they are not keeping up with their larva injects. (for a pro, larva injecting is a really simple task and take 3 to 5 seconds max) and even if you do miss a larva inject then make more hatcheries. Ling bling muta is a larva intensive unit composition, so keeping up with larva count is super important.
Jaedong vs Polt is a perfect example of floating tons of minerals but not building new hatcheries for extra production. Jaedong didn't keep up with his production for the amount of income that he had, and falling behind in any aspect by either side results in a loss.
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On August 21 2013 01:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:53 Incognoto wrote:On August 21 2013 01:44 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 01:35 Incognoto wrote:On August 21 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 01:19 Incognoto wrote:On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance. RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance. Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched. SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves. Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player. It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up. I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable. Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed. An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta. Sorry, I checked out with the phrase "Mobas are easy as shit to balance". I don't know where people got the idea that Dota 2 is easy to balance with 100+ heroes and complex drafting system. But that is another topic. The first comment was about "quality of life patch" which is a term used in LoL when they change an under played hero to bring them back into the game. It is a good idea for SC2 as well. The changes don't need to be huge and should focus on under used units to bring them back into use in some fashion. Just changing the way the nydus loads and unloads might be enough of a buff for people to use it. Also, fuck changing Warpgate and force fields. I might as well ask for them to change marines so they arn't the best snow ball unit in the game that is only countered by AOEs. We would also beat a dead horse too, but that won't get us anywhere either. We don't change thing people are using all the time. That was my main point actually. Looks like we agree. Changes that "aren't huge" and that focus on "under used units" aren't changes that would reset the meta-game, it would simply have the meta-game evolve. As long as patches don't reset the meta, then it's fine. My point was that big ass changes that reset the meta would do an RTS way more harm than good. And to be fair, Dota and LoL don't do that either. They focus on stuff that has fall out of favor or was just never used, rather than trying to "fix" stuff that is already awesome. And when I say "break everything" I mean that no one knows what is the best any more, so they have to try out the new stuff.
My bad then. I thought you were talking about the big season 3 changes that Riot did. Items changed quite a lot, the deathcap got nerfed, supports got better items (FREE WARDS :D), AD carries got more than just a select few items that were good on them (Botrk and frozen fist especially). That's what I would call breaking the meta-game. If we're talking about small changes such as Yi's redesign, then yeah, no biggie. ^_^
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On August 21 2013 02:00 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:55 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 01:53 Incognoto wrote:On August 21 2013 01:44 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 01:35 Incognoto wrote:On August 21 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 01:19 Incognoto wrote:On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:
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sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance. RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance. Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched. SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves. Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player. It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up. I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable. Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed. An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta. Sorry, I checked out with the phrase "Mobas are easy as shit to balance". I don't know where people got the idea that Dota 2 is easy to balance with 100+ heroes and complex drafting system. But that is another topic. The first comment was about "quality of life patch" which is a term used in LoL when they change an under played hero to bring them back into the game. It is a good idea for SC2 as well. The changes don't need to be huge and should focus on under used units to bring them back into use in some fashion. Just changing the way the nydus loads and unloads might be enough of a buff for people to use it. Also, fuck changing Warpgate and force fields. I might as well ask for them to change marines so they arn't the best snow ball unit in the game that is only countered by AOEs. We would also beat a dead horse too, but that won't get us anywhere either. We don't change thing people are using all the time. That was my main point actually. Looks like we agree. Changes that "aren't huge" and that focus on "under used units" aren't changes that would reset the meta-game, it would simply have the meta-game evolve. As long as patches don't reset the meta, then it's fine. My point was that big ass changes that reset the meta would do an RTS way more harm than good. And to be fair, Dota and LoL don't do that either. They focus on stuff that has fall out of favor or was just never used, rather than trying to "fix" stuff that is already awesome. And when I say "break everything" I mean that no one knows what is the best any more, so they have to try out the new stuff. My bad then. I thought you were talking about the big season 3 changes that Riot did. Items changed quite a lot, the deathcap got nerfed, supports got better items (FREE WARDS :D), AD carries got more than just a select few items that were good on them (Botrk and frozen fist especially). That's what I would call breaking the meta-game. If we're talking about small changes such as Yi's redesign, then yeah, no biggie. ^_^
Well they were fixing some fucked up shit in LoL, like the fact that one items could give you total map control forever if you didn't die and got ahead. Plus they are not Dota or SC2, who have some basis to be balanced. LoL got pretty much broken and they needed to fix it.
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I hate the Ultra buff. It punishes any Terran who does not win EVERY fight to end the game under 15 min.
Bascily zerg makes ling bling muta and a lot and gets bases, while terran constantly attacks. IF zerg gets to Ultras, all your mines are wasted supply, all your marines are ultra fodder and you better lost no medevacs at all.
The Concept of zerg is not to have an ultra-strong army, but to make tech-changes and constantly outnumber. With the new ultra, and viper and even with the "lost son" infestor it gets to the old days of BL infestor vs Protoss and terran has no chance..
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On August 21 2013 02:06 plgElwood wrote:
I hate the Ultra buff. It punishes any Terran who does not win EVERY fight to end the game under 15 min.
Bascily zerg makes ling bling muta and a lot and gets bases, while terran constantly attacks. IF zerg gets to Ultras, all your mines are wasted supply, all your marines are ultra fodder and you better lost no medevacs at all.
The Concept of zerg is not to have an ultra-strong army, but to make tech-changes and constantly outnumber. With the new ultra, and viper and even with the "lost son" infestor it gets to the old days of BL infestor vs Protoss and terran has no chance..
Hahaha.......
T.T
Because you should be able to win a game with only marines and mines.
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It appears Blizzard really has no idea what to do and are just throwing ideas out there to see what actually works. The biggest issue with Zerg right now is that they have no effective mid-tier spell casters. In WOL they had infestors which was pretty much the backbone for the Zerg army. However that unit was way too powerful in the mid and late game which lead to really stale gameplay. This is a change I wanted since WOL but I think can still be applied to HOTS as well.
They should switch the tech tier for the Infestor and Viper. If they do this they need to the buff fungal damage. Right now Viper's are useless because they require Hive tech to get them however at that point in time Terran or Protoss already have armies that can easily negate Vipers (Ghosts/HTs/Vikings). Infestors as they currently are, are not very powerful at any point of the game. I really think Infestors need a buff in some way, but if you do this they need to be moved to a higher tech so we don't go back to WOL gameplay. Vipers can be effective in the mid-game which Zerg desperately needs to safely transition to Hive tech especially against Terran.
I think this would be the easiest change that could change the dynamic of the game a lot.
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Count me in on the camp who doesn't like this ultra buff. Ultras are already very very strong, and if the zerg manages to get a good number of them it becomes nearly impossible to fight straight on. This buff just makes that kind of army stronger, but it doesn't address the midgame where zerg is usually so crippled that they cant utilize their strong hive tech fully.
I know "buffing instead of nerfing" is the new big thing but didn't we just nerf hellbats in the last patch? How about a small reduction to mine AOE, while maybe increasing the secondary damage to 45 or 50. This means its way less effective against ling/bane but more effective against certain bigger targets.
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or just redesign the infestor
or whatever, however vipers on lair would be broken because as protoss, he needs to have hts much earlier than hive timing, also protoss pushes would be negated by some simple vipers at the same time
protoss would be game over
btw, the ultralisk buff +50, if they seriously consider to actually have this in game, then i must say one thing and that is:
awful designers
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On August 21 2013 02:15 Bagi wrote:
Count me in on the camp who doesn't like this ultra buff. Ultras are already very very strong, and if the zerg manages to get a good number of them it becomes nearly impossible to fight straight on. This buff just makes that kind of army stronger, but it doesn't address the midgame where zerg is usually so crippled that they cant utilize their strong hive tech fully.
I know "buffing instead of nerfing" is the new big thing but didn't we just nerf hellbats in the last patch? How about a small reduction to mine AOE, while maybe increasing the secondary damage to 45 or 50. This means its way less effective against ling/bane but more effective against certain bigger targets.
I think the whole point is don't nerf units that are already awesome unless you are forced to do so. Its better to give the other race a way to respond or other options.
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Yet another patch that makes you question David Kims understanding of the game.
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yeah, ultra buff :/
what's next? a HT buff?
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Maybe give Viper detection? And Cloud works on mines?
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The removal of drilling claws would actually make a lot of sense. It's almost impossible to get caught out of position when your siege weapons have a deployment time of only one second.
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EPT
