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Instead of, widow mines vs Ultras .... Widow mines vs Massive, reduce the damage vs massive, I really don´t like the fantasy vs Flash game, were a lot of widow mines destroy battlecruiser like they were paper
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On August 21 2013 01:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:08 Baroninthetree wrote:On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame. At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. No it's not cool at that. Starcraft need stable methane performance and star players. That's why I only call RTS the true reports. MoBA can change whatever the metagame they like at any point. It's for fun and more sale anyway. Esports is just a method got sale. That is why they do it at the end of the season, no in the middle. It allows the game to settle down before the new season starts, but opens the door for new builds and strats, rather than the next season being rehash for the previous.
It's more beautiful when players themselves figure things out and you see how the game naturally evolves  .
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 21 2013 01:11 camilocraft wrote:
Instead of, widow mines vs Ultras .... Widow mines vs Massive, reduce the damage vs massive, I really don´t like the fantasy vs Flash game, were a lot of widow mines destroy battlecruiser like they were paper
On other hand, this was glorious and i really found it pretty darn fun... for player without BCs. Especially considering how hard it is to have air dominance, if you lose it and opponent transitioned into BCs.
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On August 21 2013 01:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:08 Baroninthetree wrote:On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame. At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. No it's not cool at that. Starcraft need stable methane performance and star players. That's why I only call RTS the true reports. MoBA can change whatever the metagame they like at any point. It's for fun and more sale anyway. Esports is just a method got sale. That is why they do it at the end of the season, no in the middle. It allows the game to settle down before the new season starts, but opens the door for new builds and strats, rather than the next season being rehash for the previous.
If you only consider the casual players, it's great idea. Buy on part of sc scene is the pro scene. A seasonly changed game will destroy the star players, hence the viewship.
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On August 21 2013 01:11 camilocraft wrote:
Instead of, widow mines vs Ultras .... Widow mines vs Massive, reduce the damage vs massive, I really don´t like the fantasy vs Flash game, were a lot of widow mines destroy battlecruiser like they were paper
Sure why not nerf the only kinda counter mech has vs toss air.
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On August 21 2013 01:14 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:09 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 01:08 Baroninthetree wrote:On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame. At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. No it's not cool at that. Starcraft need stable methane performance and star players. That's why I only call RTS the true reports. MoBA can change whatever the metagame they like at any point. It's for fun and more sale anyway. Esports is just a method got sale. That is why they do it at the end of the season, no in the middle. It allows the game to settle down before the new season starts, but opens the door for new builds and strats, rather than the next season being rehash for the previous. It's more beautiful when players themselves figure things out and you see how the game naturally evolves .
It is just as much fun to watch them figure out new things with the changes and watch the game evolve from there. It also keeps the player base intrested, as the game is fresh with new options.
On August 21 2013 01:15 Baroninthetree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:09 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 01:08 Baroninthetree wrote:On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame. At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. No it's not cool at that. Starcraft need stable methane performance and star players. That's why I only call RTS the true reports. MoBA can change whatever the metagame they like at any point. It's for fun and more sale anyway. Esports is just a method got sale. That is why they do it at the end of the season, no in the middle. It allows the game to settle down before the new season starts, but opens the door for new builds and strats, rather than the next season being rehash for the previous. If you only consider the casual players, it's great idea. Buy on part of sc scene is the pro scene. A seasonly changed game will destroy the star players, hence the viewship.
With that arugment, HotS should have destoryed all professional players and viewship. That isn't what happened at all.
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I love Ultras, much better buff than viper imo.
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On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame. At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance.
RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance.
Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched.
SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves.
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On August 21 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:14 ZAiNs wrote:On August 21 2013 01:09 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 01:08 Baroninthetree wrote:On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame. At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. No it's not cool at that. Starcraft need stable methane performance and star players. That's why I only call RTS the true reports. MoBA can change whatever the metagame they like at any point. It's for fun and more sale anyway. Esports is just a method got sale. That is why they do it at the end of the season, no in the middle. It allows the game to settle down before the new season starts, but opens the door for new builds and strats, rather than the next season being rehash for the previous. It's more beautiful when players themselves figure things out and you see how the game naturally evolves . It is just as much fun to watch them figure out new things with the changes and watch the game evolve from there. It also keeps the player base intrested, as the game is fresh with new options. Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:15 Baroninthetree wrote:On August 21 2013 01:09 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 01:08 Baroninthetree wrote:On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame. At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. No it's not cool at that. Starcraft need stable methane performance and star players. That's why I only call RTS the true reports. MoBA can change whatever the metagame they like at any point. It's for fun and more sale anyway. Esports is just a method got sale. That is why they do it at the end of the season, no in the middle. It allows the game to settle down before the new season starts, but opens the door for new builds and strats, rather than the next season being rehash for the previous. If you only consider the casual players, it's great idea. Buy on part of sc scene is the pro scene. A seasonly changed game will destroy the star players, hence the viewship. With that arugment, HotS should have destoryed all professional players and viewship. That isn't what happened at all.
i really dont get why people are so allergic to changes, it seems to be an attitude carried over from bw, in all honesty blizzard has been pretty lazy lately
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Ultra's buff is a bad idea, the issue for zerg is transition. Main issue I would say its the infestor, its either weak or strong, the fungal cannot have a good point, given how chain is instant kill of whatever it grabs. I would rather have it be a bigger area, but slow instead, it would achieve the same objective, yet it wouldn't let it chain.
That and the awful AA they have, corruptors could be more expensive but have some sort of splash or something that makes them not melt against a bunch of void rays.
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To me, the biggest problem with TvZ right now is Drilling Claws. Allowing a unit to "siege up" in 1 second is ridiculous, and it means that Widow Mines are never caught out of position like siege tanks can be. This reduces strategy and slow pushes with widow mines, and allows 4M to charge forward and burrow when attacked. The Drilling Claws upgrade needs to go and hang out with the Khaydarin Amulet in the OP pit of loneliness.
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On August 21 2013 01:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame. At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance. RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance. Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched. SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves.
Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player.
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also while its ofc difficult to balance an rts people blow this way out of proportion, just look at what drastic changes hots brought to the game and even after release balance was in an ok state
also if blizzard would adapt a 3 month cycle of patching between seasons previous changes that didnt turn out well can be reverted or compensated for quickly
also atm everything is up in the air with patches, nobody knows whats happening unless blizzard is kind enough to talk to us, with scheduled patching people would look forward to something, pros dont get screwed up by patches that hit right before a tournament and frustration for underpowered races is minimized as they know a patch is gonna hit after a season ends
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On August 21 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:19 Incognoto wrote:On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame. At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance. RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance. Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched. SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves. Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player.
If it works for DotA and LoL and hasn't been tried in BW at all, I don't see why SC2 shouldn't be allowed to try it too. I mean, that's the whole beauty of not being the only esport in the world anymore. WE CAN FINALLY COPY GOOD STUFF.
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My first thoughts on these changes re zvt:
Disapprove change #1: understand that this change is geared towards tvp but cant help thinking that it would make zvt even more difficult if terran goes mech.
Approve change #2: fair change as so many times (for me anyways) the momentum is lost against 4M battles after 12 min+ mark due to overseers sniped or otherwise dead for lagging behind.
Neural on change #3: dont think the hp buff would help in late game zvt anyways as long as the terran is smart to have a couple of rax with tech labs (which they always do).
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ultralisks living 10% longer, mech players now officially never going to leave their base and another strange why not change, seems like blizzard is back to darts + a board balance
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On August 21 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:19 Incognoto wrote:On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame. At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance. RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance. Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched. SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves. Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player.
It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up.
I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable.
Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed.
An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta.
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On August 21 2013 01:28 iGn1t3 wrote:
My first thoughts on these changes re zvt:
Disapprove change #1: understand that this change is geared towards tvp but cant help thinking that it would make zvt even more difficult if terran goes mech.
Yeah man, look at all these pro Zergs struggling with meching Terrans.....
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This isn't going to solve any of the problems with ZvP, or ZvT. The problem with Ultras has never been their beefiness, or ability to tank damage, and the reason they're difficult to get to in ZvT is because of the constant pressure that 4M allows. You can't use infestors to buy enough time to get out ultras anymore, due to the nerfs, which means you have to constantly throw your gas into mutas and banelings to even stay alive, making a hive transition incredibly slow.
If you want to fix the issues of midgame TvZ, then take away the widow mine's ignoring of armor, so that when you get carapace upgrades, you no longer get 1 shot by them. This holds off a number of silly allin attacks, and still does massive damage to zerg players who don't micro.
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On August 21 2013 01:35 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 01:19 Incognoto wrote:On August 21 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On August 21 2013 00:42 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote:On August 20 2013 23:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame. At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS. sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now. wow, that's actually such a cool idea. It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance. RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance. Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched. SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves. Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player. It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up. I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable. Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed. An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta.
Sorry, I checked out with the phrase "Mobas are easy as shit to balance". I don't know where people got the idea that Dota 2 is easy to balance with 100+ heroes and complex drafting system. But that is another topic.
The first comment was about "quality of life patch" which is a term used in LoL when they change an under played hero to bring them back into the game. It is a good idea for SC2 as well. The changes don't need to be huge and should focus on under used units to bring them back into use in some fashion. Just changing the way the nydus loads and unloads might be enough of a buff for people to use it.
Also, fuck changing Warpgate and force fields. I might as well ask for them to change marines so they arn't the best snow ball unit in the game that is only countered by AOEs. We would also beat a dead horse too, but that won't get us anywhere either. We don't change thing people are using all the time.
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EPT
