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On August 20 2013 23:33 awesomoecalypse wrote:All ideas that have been discussed ad nauseum thousands of times, and apart from maaybe the tank buff (probably not), all things that are never, ever going to happen. Protoss is not getting a ground up redesign, and SC2 is not going to suddenly bring back a bunch of BW units. Focusing incessantly on those ideas is silly and counterproductive. It inevitably happens in the sort of posts that like to use meaningless buzzwords like "fundamental design problems" or babble on about defender's advantage or the supply cap.
Oh come on, you forgot the good ones:
Elegant design
Positional play
Anti mirco abilities(which is all of Dota 2, I might add, abilities in that game hate micro)
Skill ceiling
And all the rest. We also need to ask for worse path finding and to select only 12 units at a time.
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I would lower the sight range of widow mines slightly, so that they are less effective at getting those "unfair" kills where a zerg army is running by and boom goes 25 ling/bane or a few mutas.
I certainly wouldn't want to see ultras any stronger, because at lower levels, they completely destroy terrans, and at higher levels, I'd say any time zerg is safe getting ultras, they should have the upper hand.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On August 20 2013 23:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 23:33 awesomoecalypse wrote:all fantastic ideas except for the tank buff  All ideas that have been discussed ad nauseum thousands of times, and apart from maaybe the tank buff (probably not), all things that are never, ever going to happen. Protoss is not getting a ground up redesign, and SC2 is not going to suddenly bring back a bunch of BW units. Focusing incessantly on those ideas is silly and counterproductive. It inevitably happens in the sort of posts that like to use meaningless buzzwords like "fundamental design problems" or babble on about defender's advantage or the supply cap. Oh come on, you forgot the good ones: Elegant design Positional play Anti mirco abilities(which is all of Dota 2, I might add, abilities in that game hate micro) Skill ceiling And all the rest. We also need to ask for worse path finding and to select only 12 units at a time.
You forgot the REAL thing: SC1 soundtrack :D
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I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
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I don't know where the idea to buff the Ultralisk came from. Weird. They were already really good and now they can tank that much more. I don't like it.
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Nerf mines, dont buff the ultralisk...
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On August 20 2013 23:38 Ansinjunger wrote:
I would lower the sight range of widow mines slightly, so that they are less effective at getting those "unfair" kills where a zerg army is running by and boom goes 25 ling/bane or a few mutas.
I certainly wouldn't want to see ultras any stronger, because at lower levels, they completely destroy terrans, and at higher levels, I'd say any time zerg is safe getting ultras, they should have the upper hand.
Agreed. I think it's silly how stubborn Blizzard is being with the widow mine's effectiveness.
Think of how TvZ was before.. you had to make Tanks - which were expensive and could only be produced one at a time - to counter high numbers of banelings. And if your opponent went Muta they didn't really help.
Now Terran can produce mines two at a time for way less gass than the cost of tanks. They're invisible, deal basically the same damage to banelings, and can shoot up. Granted they only shoot once vs. a tank's ability to shoot multiple times, but as long as they catch the banelings, they've done their job. Mines are also much harder to micro against than tanks, because you don't necessarily know where they are, and they can actually kill your detection.
Meanwhile, what has Zerg gotten to help against this? Faster Hydra movement off creep with an upgrade? Weaker infestors? Ultra buff is nice, but they never get to make Ultras agaisnt this type of play...
Blizz needs to address this part of the game. Give Zerg a more gas cost efficient way to deal with mines.
Without breaking PvZ preferably :D
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On August 20 2013 23:36 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 23:26 freerolll wrote:On August 20 2013 22:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:
The overseer and mech buffs are fine. I don't think they'll radically change anything, but they're tweaks in the right direction that I have no problem with.
However, I disagree with the Ultra buff. Not because I don't think there are any issues with ZvT lategame, but because I think this is a poor way to fix those issues. Buffing Ultras just feels so random. Their reasoning is basically "Zerg lategame is weak in one matchup, Ultras exist in the lategame, therefore buff Ultras", without any further thought put into what other effects it will have, or whether it will even address the issue at hand.
The primary issue with lategame ZvT is that since Zerg players have to get a Pit and a Hive (which they would otherwise have no need for) before they can even start 3/3, whereas Terran have no comparable requirement--even beyond the additional expense, it delays Zerg upgrades in the lategame by a huge margin. This creates a decent window where Terran bio has 3/3 upgrades but the Zerg hasn't even been able to start them yet.
The simplest fix would to make the Spire open up teching to Hive (that is, Z would need to get either a Pit or a Spire before they could build a Hive). This would reduce the time before 3/3 is open to Zerg, and therefore help minimize that 3/3 Terran bio timing window. Since Spires are more expensive than Infestation Pits and have a longer build time, this wouldn't really effect non-Muta oriented builds (because if you aren't going air, its cheaper and faster to just get the pit)---it is strictly a buff to one scenario, when Z has a muta heavy comp in the midgame and is trying to keep up on upgrades in the lategame, i.e. the exact issue at hand in TvZ. But in that situation, it would be helpful. A muta-oriented Zerg wouldn't have to drop 100/100 and wait 50 seconds for an Infestation Pit they don't otherwise need...and since the Overseer buff should make it easier to keep Overseers alive, the money Z saves on overseers and not needing a pit will open up Hive more quickly, reducing the time before Zerg can start grabbing the upgrades they need to keep up with Terran.
Unlike the Ultra buff, this would have minimal impact on other matchups, nor would it radically alter the metagame. It would simply help Zerg have more success playing their current style. I realy like this idea having spire or infest pit give hive tech Dear God are you high man? Lol. It's hard enough to scout what composition Z is going for as P when they literally have one of every building... and only lings on the field... now either Spire or Infestation pit could mean fast hive? Or Swarm hosts? Or Muta? How the heck do you react? I'd say if anything, make Zerg 3/3 not require Hive. Just keep it Lair Tech. The same 2/2 and 3/3 require only armory and twilight for the other races.
LOL sorry I play terran didnt think about it from the protoss point of view!
And yes im high :D
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On August 20 2013 23:46 MagnuMizer wrote:
Nerf mines, dont buff the ultralisk...
They are pretty much useless vs protoss or terran except for some situations and builds.
Making them uselss vs zerg would make it so we would only see 1-2 defensive widowmines in some games!
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Just give the Burrow Charge back already
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I like the reasonning behind the Ultralisk change.
It's pretty crazy that Ultra now have 150 more hitpoint than in BroodWar, but Terran didn't have Marauder back then.
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On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote:
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
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4713 Posts
On August 20 2013 23:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 23:33 awesomoecalypse wrote:all fantastic ideas except for the tank buff All ideas that have been discussed ad nauseum thousands of times, and apart from maaybe the tank buff (probably not), all things that are never, ever going to happen. Protoss is not getting a ground up redesign, and SC2 is not going to suddenly bring back a bunch of BW units. Focusing incessantly on those ideas is silly and counterproductive. It inevitably happens in the sort of posts that like to use meaningless buzzwords like "fundamental design problems" or babble on about defender's advantage or the supply cap. Oh come on, you forgot the good ones: Elegant design Positional play Anti mirco abilities(which is all of Dota 2, I might add, abilities in that game hate micro) Skill ceiling And all the rest. We also need to ask for worse path finding and to select only 12 units at a time.
Slow down there son. There is a huge, massive, insanely large difference between SC2 and DotA2 and I'm not even talking about one being an RTS and one being a MoBA. The difference though is that, in DotA 2 yes there are tons upon tons of slows, stuns, disables, roots and what not. However the big huge difference in DotA2 compared to SC2 is that you can counter all of them in some way, either trough playing better or from item and hero selection.
There are some dispels or immunities against stuns, slows and the like, there are items that nullify spells, there are items and abilities to heal an ally unit, or make him invisible or straight up pull him into a better position out of harms way.
In SC2 there is absolutely no way to counterplay a root or stun once it goes off. If it goes off it goes off and you get punished for it and people hate that with a passion. By all means give zerg a aoe stun, or make fungal last 8 seconds, hell give it even more damage, I wouldn't give a damn so long as my raven had a researchable spell that gave me a aoe dispel, now I'd actually have some way to directly counter the spell instead of having to worry about playing perfectly and dodging it each and every time.
However SC2 doesn't have that many spells and/or spell interactions compared to DotA2 or (more relevantly) WC3, so there is no need to add immunities and dispels, and I think that's a good thing because that kind of a system works better for games with lower unit counts and more specialization/emphasis on micro, WC3 and DotA both have that.
On topic, zerg's ground 3/3 not requiring Hive might be the one of the single smartest changes I've heard so far in regards to addressing the current meta-game problem in ZvT. Provided it is still friggin hard to get all the gas necessary while trying to not die, but you could now save up a 250 (Infestation Pit and Hive), which is at least 1 of the two important combat upgrades. You'd still want to and need to get to Hive to have access to Adrennal Glands and Ultras, but it wouldn't be such a insane and sudden transition, it would be more gradual and perhaps survivable.
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On August 20 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:
Remove Swarm Hosts, add Lurkers.
Bam.
And you have a butload of other troubles.
I once argued about lukers and the result was you have to chance the whole game to fit them in.
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On August 20 2013 22:45 Waxangel wrote:
I want to see them mess around with putting 3/3 upgrades at lair
it would be interesting to see at least :D
Now that's a change that makes sense to me.
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NO ULTRA BUFF. they already dont die, they are the strongest thing zerg has. buff other things, or also nerf damage
I play terran, and when a zerg can get to 3-5 ultras with a surounding army. thats when the game gets reallllllly hard. Once people start making like 4 infestors along with everthing it will be seen how good they are. bling ultra fungal is really good. I normaly think buffing is better than nerfing, but in terms of this, i think a mine nerf would be better.
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Why are they buffing the strongest zerg unit atm what the hell :D Viper buff while not really a great idea, was far better than this.
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On August 20 2013 23:54 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:45 Waxangel wrote:
I want to see them mess around with putting 3/3 upgrades at lair
it would be interesting to see at least :D Now that's a change that makes sense to me.
It would mirror the other two races more closely and not put this huge gas dumb in after hive. 3/3 is not cheap and Zergs love gas.
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Actually, I am starting to realize that I paid for this balance team. WTF.
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guys... stop theory crafting here and play the test map...
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EPT
