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Austria24417 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:13 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 20:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Yeah, standard TvP will be affected the most by this. ForGG vs HerO from ATC is a good example of hellbats being effective. Nope, ForGG vs HerO is an example of how Hellbats/Marauders only win thanks to a huge eco advantage (eco graph of the ATC game; HerO lost his third in the midgame), precisely because it's not effective. ForGG vs sOs in the WCS Finals season 1 followed the exact same pattern. Hellbats aren't useful in lategame TvP and having them deal +3, 6 or 9 damage to Zealots won't change that. I have absolutely no idea why Blizzard talks about a "Hellbat transition" by lategame. Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 21:57 Jermstuddog wrote:
I doubt they could really do anything with the Roach, but the Hydra I don't see why not. When sitting around theorycrafting on design, I don't see why they couldn't make Grooved Spines a +2 range upgrade. Maybe because it would break the game? Just see how much better Immortals got with their +1 range...
Yes HerO lost the third midgame but ForGG was already incorporating hellbats before that happened. HerO and ForGG also played a game on Whirlwind that didn't play out like this with ForGG going MMM+Hellbats. Granted HerO looked weak all tournament long at the WCS Finals but that doesn't mean that ForGG's style doesn't work. In fact, both HerO and sOs had trouble holding their third because of hellbats in the mix. ForGG was suddenly up by 60 supply against a single forge colossus build and it's not because HerO was too greedy or because he skipped units for tech. It's plain and simple - ForGG made hellbats, his supply skyrockets and he simply overwhelms players who take their third at a standard timing.
So at the very least you delay a protoss third with that style and you're safer against 2base all ins. I'd say that's pretty viable.
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Terran
Armory
Vehicle and Ship Weapon upgrades have been combined into just one upgrade.
That's kinda stupid for TvT. You'd be forced to play Mech because a lategame transition bio -> air ist not gonna be possible vs a mech player with already full upgrades. For TvP I'd like this change, because you upgrade Hellbats/Vikings at once and it would make it easier to deal with mass zealots. But still, disapprove.
Zerg
Overseer
The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade now increases Overseer movement speed from 1.88 to 3.375 (previously 1.88 to 2.75.)
I really like this change. Could be useful for TvZ, but might also not change anything. Approve.
Ultralisk
Health increased from 500 to 550.
My first impression was like "Srsly?" haha. Do not like the idea, Ultralisks dont seem weak at all, wrong place to buff imo. Disapprove.
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On August 20 2013 22:43 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:37 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 21:48 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude. Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better. I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed. But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary. The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T). I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it. As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general. So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful? NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU.
I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out.
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On August 20 2013 22:41 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 21:48 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude. Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better. I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed. But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary. The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? A unit that is used awfully much for a supposedly bad unit. Are ovidrops bad, or are they not useful in the metagame? I have now in plenty of failed attempts to mech vs zerg seen the strength of ovidrops. Imagine you are at 200/200, with your army somewhere halfway on the map. And now your opponent spends 16 supply on a drop, while also doing an assault on your army. If your opponent is terran that means 12 marines in your base, for a toss it is 7 zealots (both assuming they even come through your turret ring, which isn't that likely tbh). Now zerg does the same, with a bunch of ovis to soak up shots of turrets added. Congratulations, you now have 32 cracklings running around your base while your army is in the middle of the map. You can buff nydus, but only if you completely rework it to be less effective at the same time. I still don't think it is a bad idea to introduce different types of nydus worms, but just buffing the current one for its assault role is imo very bad. It gives a direct path between zerg base and your main. If that has a good chance of being established it is simply OP. Burrow movement is not popular currently, but that is also partly due to metagame. Vs mech it is way more useful than vs bio. And it is for example much harder to spot than cloaked units. Regarding burrow, I also never understood why zergs aren't much more active with using burrowed banelings vs bio. The few pros who use them often burrow them in fairly bad spots tbh. Where a normal creep clearing scan / scan to see where zerg army is hanging out already spots them. Start by burrowing them pretty much outside the natural of the terran and he has to spend a fortune on scans or get a quick raven. Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:34 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 20 2013 22:31 Sissors wrote:
What I never understood is zergs claiming hydras are useless. Already in WoL they did it, while in WoL it wasn't that often used, it was an important part of ZvZ. Now in HotS they still claim hydra is useless and never used, while it is still often used in ZvZ, and aditionally also in ZvP. Also in ZvT vs mech builds it works fine. So I don't see how buffing the hydra to be also good vs bio wouldn't break the other situations. In ZvT vs mech builds everything works, as long as it either flies either has vipers with it :D. Point is that against bio builds hydra is trash to put it blunt in macro game (not as part of 2-2 timing for example). Not denying that, however: 1. Zergs/toss complain terran mainly use tier 1 units, you will not decrease that by further nerfing mech. 2. They are also often used vs zergs and toss. Especially the idea of giving it +2 range with its upgrade will have only limitted effect vs terran. (It is not like you are going to kite bio, and it also wasn't like bio could kite hydras), but it will have huge effect vs toss all-ins. They completely rely on forcefields, and one more range then for hydras will have a huge effect on their effectiveness.
as much as i would like it: ovidrops are bad for 4 years, so is nydus, so is burrowmovement. they never were a standard thing in the metagame because all 3 suck. there were some weeks were banedrops was used and even that wasnt the standard metagame. after 4 years and buffing T and P drops since players are able to defend better while keeping ovis at HT speed so even low level players see it miles ahead coming its time to do something to it.
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550 HP ultras? Bring them on :-D
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Still think the Zerg changes should occur at Lair tech as everyone is mostly saying. Fighting constant 4M pressure while defending your 4th base makes it very hard to transition into Hive tech. Once Terran has 3-3 its very tough to beat.
There is so much you can do. If they're going to do a test map why not try the changes at Lair?
The main thing to look at is options. Muta/ling/bling is still the best comp. Things you can address:
- Preventing harassment - potential changes: hydra range +2 with upgrade to shoot medivacs, re-verting nerf on neural parasite (no more mothership vs np sillyness), buff to banelings (bigger explosive radius when detonated while burrowed?) to slow pushes, corruptor ability?
- Increased harassment for Zerg - buff to nydus canal to back off Terran, adrenal glands for lings available at infestation pit for better runbys/damage in general, changes to infested terrans to bring back Brofester hitsquads, fungal? (might be risky) changes to the stupid Corruptor, maybe it can do something cool? Buff to contaminate to slow down terran 3-3?
- Tech scaling with Terran - touched on the crackling upgrade above, maybe Hive is unlocked by Spire also, or 3-3 doesn't require Hive? Or faster building time on Hive/pit, etc? Terran needed science facility in BW, now its just Fac/armory (toss also needed templar archives for their next tier upgrades, maybe we can balance all ups at once?!)
There are tons of options that you could try that might not even effect the other matchups that would make the game more diverse. Lategame is fine imo. I've never said HEY i wish my ultra could tank more damage!
EDIT: also i dont want to see a Terran nerf
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Why don't do the increse rate of consume on Viper? There were a lot of pros saying that. The Ultra buff is ridiculously
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On August 20 2013 22:03 Henk wrote:
I really don't understand why Blizzard thinks lategame ZvT is the issue. The issue is actually GETTING there, and surviving the onslaught of endless bio/mine pushes and pokes. Once you get ultras and infestors, you're fine. Thing is, you can't transitition into hive/ultras/3/3 upgrades because of the immense gas cost. Without pumping that gas into banelings you're just gonna die before ultras hit the field.
I do like the suggestion someone said, of making 3/3 require only infestation pit. Perhaps zergs can squeeze out some gas for that without the cost and the 100 sec requirement of the hive to be able to push back those endless waves of terran.
They most likely know it and want to keep it that way. It is nice in RTS games if the balance shifts in different stages of the game, mostly done by tech advantages that will get you behind if you go for it. Terran having problems in the early game, but they can make it up in the midgame and grab an advantage for the lategame Zerg that is almost unbeatable.
This will change the gameflow multiple times and allows and forces one side to do something and use their current tech advantage.
You saw what happens when people try to equal everything out with the queen patch. RTS lives from tech advantages and the harsh way to get there. Which is the biggest issue when it comes to terran as they only have that in upgrades almost.
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The overseer and mech buffs are fine. I don't think they'll radically change anything, but they're tweaks in the right direction that I have no problem with.
However, I disagree with the Ultra buff. Not because I don't think there are any issues with ZvT lategame, but because I think this is a poor way to fix those issues. Buffing Ultras just feels so random. Their reasoning is basically "Zerg lategame is weak in one matchup, Ultras exist in the lategame, therefore buff Ultras", without any further thought put into what other effects it will have, or whether it will even address the issue at hand.
The primary issue with lategame ZvT is that since Zerg players have to get a Pit and a Hive (which they would otherwise have no need for) before they can even start 3/3, whereas Terran have no comparable requirement--even beyond the additional expense, it delays Zerg upgrades in the lategame by a huge margin. This creates a decent window where Terran bio has 3/3 upgrades but the Zerg hasn't even been able to start them yet.
The simplest fix would to make the Spire open up teching to Hive (that is, Z would need to get either a Pit or a Spire before they could build a Hive). This would reduce the time before 3/3 is open to Zerg, and therefore help minimize that 3/3 Terran bio timing window. Since Spires are more expensive than Infestation Pits and have a longer build time, this wouldn't really effect non-Muta oriented builds (because if you aren't going air, its cheaper and faster to just get the pit)---it is strictly a buff to one scenario, when Z has a muta heavy comp in the midgame and is trying to keep up on upgrades in the lategame, i.e. the exact issue at hand in TvZ. But in that situation, it would be helpful. A muta-oriented Zerg wouldn't have to drop 100/100 and wait 50 seconds for an Infestation Pit they don't otherwise need...and since the Overseer buff should make it easier to keep Overseers alive, the money Z saves on overseers and not needing a pit will open up Hive more quickly, reducing the time before Zerg can start grabbing the upgrades they need to keep up with Terran.
Unlike the Ultra buff, this would have minimal impact on other matchups, nor would it radically alter the metagame. It would simply help Zerg have more success playing their current style.
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On August 20 2013 22:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:43 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:37 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 21:48 BronzeKnee wrote:
[quote]
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude. Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better. I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed. But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary. The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T). I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it. As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general. So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful? NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU. I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out.
It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights:
+5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds.
Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0
(this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?)
+20 seconds to Warp Gate research time
Before this, 4 gate was the ONLY build in PvZ
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.3
Removal of Khaydarin Amulet
If TvP ever got to 4+ bases on both sides, Protoss wins because warp-in storms were too powerful.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.0
All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken.
That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings?
The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed...
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...giving vipers maxed energy isn't balanced, over course. why not the energy for 1 abduct? makes a timing attack only a few seconds quicker, but you can stop attacks a lot more easily.
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Vehicle and Ship Weapon upgrades have been combined into just one upgrade.
i like it. kindda hard when you play mech Tank/Hellbat an suddenly know Broodlord is coming.
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David Kim is so determined to leave 4M as it is and balance the game around it. Pretty terrible approach.
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On August 20 2013 23:02 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:43 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:37 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary. The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T). I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it. As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general. So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful? NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU. I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out. It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights: +5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0(this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?) +20 seconds to Warp Gate research time Before this, 4 gate was the ONLY build in PvZ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.3Removal of Khaydarin Amulet If TvP ever got to 4+ bases on both sides, Protoss wins because warp-in storms were too powerful. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.0All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken. That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings? The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed...
I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months.
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On August 20 2013 23:05 saddaromma wrote:
David Kim is so determined to leave 4M as it is and balance the game around it. Pretty terrible approach.
4M is not the problem, lack of Zerg options in dealing with 4M is the problem.
I agree with the concept of buffing Zerg options and leaving 4M powerful, especially considering how lackluser mines are in every other MU.
No reason to nerf an already limited unit.
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Zerg does not need a lategame buff. A baneling infestor ultra army already destroys bio armies, the bigger problem is getting there. The armory buff surely helps mech, but does not adress the main problems that mech has.
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On August 20 2013 23:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 23:02 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:43 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:37 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote:
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But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T). I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it. As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general. So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful? NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU. I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out. It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights: +5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0(this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?) +20 seconds to Warp Gate research time Before this, 4 gate was the ONLY build in PvZ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.3Removal of Khaydarin Amulet If TvP ever got to 4+ bases on both sides, Protoss wins because warp-in storms were too powerful. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.0All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken. That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings? The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed... I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months.
Great, buff, don't nerf, I get it.
The game has stagnated around 4M timings, Blizzard SHOULD intervene with a balance change here.
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They could make Ultras 2000 HP. It changes nothing if the Zerg can never get a 4th base up due to MMM pressure.
I think the problem is that Terran's mineral units trade very cost efficiently against Zerg's gas units. So Marine (no gas) Hellbat (no gas) Mine (very little gas) require counters like Hydras, Infestors, Ultras, etc... (lots of gas). So rather than building a huge force and attacking, like they do vs. Protoss, Terran is incentivized to just trickle in an endless stream of units all game long. Eventually Zerg loses.
Successful Zergs are the ones who are able to defend while denying the Terran his 4th base, so eventually once his main mines out he is back on 2 base and doesn't have the economy to power that endless stream of units.
IMO if they want to help Zerg out a little vs. T, give them something that either helps them trade a little more cost efficiently (GAS wise) or helps them deny Terran econ a little better.
I'm Protoss.. no horse in this race. But the last thing I want is stupid buffs aimed at fixing TvZ that blow up my matchup. I lost to mass queen Ultra yesterday lol, that shit is downright unkillable with any composition. Does not need to be stronger.
And Terran getting free 3/3 on their Battlecruiser transition seems a little bit OP in TvT... really favors the Meching Terran vs the Bio Terran, since we know how 3/3 BCs do against bio....
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On August 20 2013 23:02 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:43 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:37 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary. The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T). I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it. As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general. So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful? NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU. I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out. It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights: +5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0(this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?) +20 seconds to Warp Gate research time Before this, 4 gate was the ONLY build in PvZ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.3Removal of Khaydarin Amulet If TvP ever got to 4+ bases on both sides, Protoss wins because warp-in storms were too powerful. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.0All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken. That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings? The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed...
You have no idea what you're talking about lol. The Zealot build time was to nerf macro 2 Gate openings in PvZ which wasn't broken at all. The warpgate time nerf was to help PvP which was dominated by 4 Gate at the time, 4 Gate was never an issue vs Zerg, let alone being the 'only' build. Khaydarian Amulet was strong but nowhere near Infestor BL at all in terms of broken-ness.
On August 20 2013 23:12 DinoMight wrote:
I'm Protoss.. no horse in this race. But the last thing I want is stupid buffs aimed at fixing TvZ that blow up my matchup. I lost to mass queen Ultra yesterday lol, that shit is downright unkillable with any composition. Does not need to be stronger.
It's almost impossible if the Zerg micros well and you don't use Feedback. One full energy Templar can feedback 4 Queens, so a Warp Prism full of Templar can feedback 16 Queens. If you pull off the feedbacks your Immortals and Void Rays will clean up the Ultras no problem.
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On August 20 2013 23:11 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 23:09 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:02 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:43 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:37 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T). I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it. As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general. So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful? NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU. I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out. It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights: +5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0(this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?) +20 seconds to Warp Gate research time Before this, 4 gate was the ONLY build in PvZ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.3Removal of Khaydarin Amulet If TvP ever got to 4+ bases on both sides, Protoss wins because warp-in storms were too powerful. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.0All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken. That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings? The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed... I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months. Great, buff, don't nerf, I get it. The game has stagnated around 4M timings, Blizzard SHOULD intervene with a balance change here.
Make Spire unlock hive. The 3/3 Terran bio timing window in TvZ is drastically reduced, and hardly anything else is seriously effected. Far simpler, and far less clumsy, than buffing Ultra hp.
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