EPTCall to Action: August 19 Balance Testing - Page 11
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On August 20 2013 21:23 lolfail9001 wrote: Buffing roaches and hydras may have consequences in ZvP :S. And it really looks to me, that they are trying their hardest not to nerf terran and in the same time can't really figure out where the real problem lies (and it is hard, because that upgrade disadvantage coming into late game for zerg is just part of a problem, not the largest one either). I doubt they could really do anything with the Roach, but the Hydra I don't see why not. When sitting around theorycrafting on design, I don't see why they couldn't make Grooved Spines a +2 range upgrade. Hydras are pretty terrible in the mid-game stages of all 3 MU, and this wouldn't help ZvZ or ZvP very much, but in ZvT, 7 range hydras would specifically deal with the issue of "not being able to hold a base without losing your whole army". In lategame, Protoss are already dependent on Colossus, Storms, and Void Rays, so 2 out of 3 of those would still crush Hydras, and the 3rd really shouldn't be able to, so again, I see no issue, but hey, who am I to suggest design options. For the Infestor, the best place to look IMO would be Infested Terrans. They could revert the nerf on hatching HP for one, I never really liked that change (I guess that doesn't really help in ZvT though), more importantly, I would suggest giving the eggs a little more armor. They currently sit at 2 armor, 3 or 4 would allow them to live long enough to set off Widow Mines, and that would really change everything about how ZvT works right now. Having to unburrow/burrow mines every time eggs get thrown would be huge and really not affect anything else anywhere else. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
I do like the suggestion someone said, of making 3/3 require only infestation pit. Perhaps zergs can squeeze out some gas for that without the cost and the 100 sec requirement of the hive to be able to push back those endless waves of terran. | ||
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BamBam
745 Posts
The problem is, with the infestor nerfed to the ground, zerg does not have a capable unit to cost effectively deal with clumps of units, or at least postpone the pushes long enough for hive tech to get out. In order for this "issue" to be solved they should of introduced a aoe unit at lair tech instead of a swarm host (ie lurker). Without a cost-effective way to kill off large groups of units, zerg just ends up being killed in a slow, attritious style. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 20 2013 21:48 BronzeKnee wrote: Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude. Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better. I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 20 2013 21:57 Jermstuddog wrote: I doubt they could really do anything with the Roach, but the Hydra I don't see why not, when sitting around theorycrafting on design, I don't see why they couldn't make Grooved Spines a +2 range upgrade. Hydras are pretty terrible in the mid-game stages of all 3 MU, and this wouldn't help ZvZ or ZvP very much, but in ZvT, 7 range hydras would specifically deal with the issue of "not being able to hold a base without losing your whole army". In lategame, Protoss are already dependent on Colossus, Storms, and Void Rays, so 2 out of 3 of those would still crush Hydras, and the 3rd really shouldn't be able to, so again, I see no issue, but hey, who am I to suggest design options. For the Infestor, the best place to look IMO would be Infested Terrans. They could revert the nerf on hatching HP for one, I never really liked that change, but more importantly, I would suggest giving the eggs a little more armor. They currently sit at 2 armor, 3 or 4 would allow them to live long enough to set off Widow Mines, and that would really change everything about how ZvT works right now. Having to unburrow/burrow mines every time eggs get thrown would be huge and really not affect anything else anywhere else. 7range hydras could indeed be quite good vs Terran (in theory), as they'd outrange marines/mines by 2, and hydras would become a little better at defending drops. The 2range advantage would be very useful, because right now the Terran always has the range advantage and always gets into the situation where he has that superstrong mine position and can run forward with marines that attack the zerg units, while those can't attack back without running into mines. ling/bling/hydra might be an alternative to ling/bling/muta in the midgame. Lair +2range is probably just too strong vs Protoss, Hive +2range sounds very reasonable in ZvZ and ZvP (Protoss has more than enough time to go Colossus or Templar, ZvZ is a lairgame for the most part anyways). It would at least be worth trying. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote: Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better. I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed. But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary. The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. | ||
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ETisME
12861 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote: Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better. I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed. I think buffing is even worse as a solution. While it might turn out to be fine in Hots, you can't remove/nerf units right out from the box for Lotv and it will only become harder to balance when you add in those new units | ||
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Irre
United States646 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:08 Big J wrote: 7range hydras could indeed be quite good vs Terran (in theory), as they'd outrange marines/mines by 2, and hydras would become a little better at defending drops. The 2range advantage would be very useful, because right now the Terran always has the range advantage and always gets into the situation where he has that superstrong mine position and can run forward with marines that attack the zerg units, while those can't attack back without running into mines. ling/bling/hydra might be an alternative to ling/bling/muta in the midgame. Lair +2range is probably just too strong vs Protoss, Hive +2range sounds very reasonable in ZvZ and ZvP (Protoss has more than enough time to go Colossus or Templar, ZvZ is a lairgame for the most part anyways). It would at least be worth trying. I don't disagree with you that 7 range might possibly be a bit too strong vs Protoss (currently, I think 6 range Hydras are a bit too week at that very same timing but that's just whining about balance now), it's still a far better change than +50 ultra hp to be trying in a test map IMO. Where the hell is Blizzard getting this shit from? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 20 2013 20:30 DarkLordOlli wrote: Yeah, standard TvP will be affected the most by this. ForGG vs HerO from ATC is a good example of hellbats being effective. Nope, ForGG vs HerO is an example of how Hellbats/Marauders only win thanks to a huge eco advantage (eco graph of the ATC game; HerO lost his third in the midgame), precisely because it's not effective. ForGG vs sOs in the WCS Finals season 1 followed the exact same pattern. Hellbats aren't useful in lategame TvP and having them deal +3, 6 or 9 damage to Zealots won't change that. I have absolutely no idea why Blizzard talks about a "Hellbat transition" by lategame. On August 20 2013 21:57 Jermstuddog wrote: I doubt they could really do anything with the Roach, but the Hydra I don't see why not. When sitting around theorycrafting on design, I don't see why they couldn't make Grooved Spines a +2 range upgrade. Maybe because it would break the game? Just see how much better Immortals got with their +1 range... | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote: But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary. The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:13 TheDwf wrote: Nope, ForGG vs HerO is an example of how Hellbats/Marauders only win thanks to a huge eco advantage (eco graph of the ATC game; HerO lost his third in the midgame), precisely because it's not effective. ForGG vs sOs in the WCS Finals season 1 followed the exact same pattern. Hellbats aren't useful in lategame TvP and having them deal +3, 6 or 9 damage to Zealots won't change that. I have absolutely no idea why Blizzard talks about a "Hellbat transition" by lategame. Maybe because it would break the game? Just see how much better Immortals got with their +1 range... Because they aren't actually watching pros play and are instead balancing based on what pros "should" be doing, pretty much the worst possible thing they could be doing from the design perspective. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote: But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary. The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. well 50hp to ultras wont mean T is on a huge timer. even in the small amount of games where Z manages to get to hive on equal footing with T its not like suddenly Z has a huge advantage since having supply heavy ultras means you have much less mutas so drops with 3 3 rauders are more of an issue. in that equal scenarios its more like: fight oncreep Z wins, fight offcreep T wins so at that stage a lot is about securing more bases, spreading/denying creep and taking good fights which wont change with a small 50hp buff to ultras. the small ultrabuff helps them to stay alive a bit longer which is nice for ZvT and ZvP but not gamechanging. agree that lairtech Z is still in a horrible spot, especially in ZvT. hydras are outright bad in all MUs except in small all in timing windows and nowhere from the core unit blizz wanted them to make. like they are so far away from being a core unit. 6 base range + a hivetech upgrade that gives them +2 range vs air or 20 more hp or whatever would be a way to make them more viable in each MU. but really hope they just rework them to a 1 supply unit in LotV. main problem imo that non-muta comps have is that they are bad vs harrassment AND bad harrassing themselves since ovidrop, nydus and burrowmovement all suck AND they are not even that good in a direct engagement. so blizz needs to either buff stuff like roach hydra in direct engagements...or which would be much more awesome: buff nydus, ovidrop and burrow movement so you can do something to interrupt the 3 base rally and finally harrass T. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:16 Jermstuddog wrote: Because they aren't actually watching pros play and are instead balancing based on what pros "should" be doing, pretty much the worst possible thing they could be doing from the design perspective. *Remembers ghost nerf*, Nah, they better be not touching what pros are doing. | ||
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doggy
Germany306 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote: That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:13 TheDwf wrote: Nope, ForGG vs HerO is an example of how Hellbats/Marauders only win thanks to a huge eco advantage (eco graph of the ATC game; HerO lost his third in the midgame), precisely because it's not effective. ForGG vs sOs in the WCS Finals season 1 followed the exact same pattern. Hellbats aren't useful in lategame TvP and having them deal +3, 6 or 9 damage to Zealots won't change that. I have absolutely no idea why Blizzard talks about a "Hellbat transition" by lategame. May i rephrase? Hellbats/Marauders only win against their direct counter(don't you dare to say me archons do not counter hellbats and marauders) thanks to a huge eco advantage. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote: That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. I can tell you right now, without even opening SC2, buffing a Hive tech unit doesn't help ZvT when the issue is the fact that Zerg can't secure the 4th base they need to safely transition to Hive. Blizzard is acting like lategame is an issue in ZvT, it's not. It's the specific timing where Zerg has to take 4 bases to keep up with the massive production capabilities of a 3 base Terran. Drops, infinite rally with mines, and 3/3 bio are simply too much to handle at that point, even for the best professional Zerg players. They keep trying to force Zerg into an earlier Hive, when that doesn't solve the issue, it probably even makes it worse because now they've gone a step further and tried to push Hive + Ultra Cavern as their new solution which is even more taxing on resources and delays the saving tech by another 80 seconds compared to their Viper solution. I'm sure that extra time will not be an issue... | ||
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