EPTCall to Action: August 19 Balance Testing - Page 10
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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crawlert
9 Posts
It is a very strong composition to push back Terran, gain map control and catch a breath, but it is still a defensive composition and doesn't let you end the game. What happens when you attack into Terran's bases with this composition? The Ultra just get blocked by AI pathing and sim-city and PF without doing much. Terran can lift the CC if needed and spam mules on the other side of the map, knowing it is safe from your army, while dropping 3/3 MM on multiple Zerg bases. At this point Terran needs to wait for the marauder production to kick in and then Terran's bases will become a meat grinder to Ultra. There are few options for Zerg at this point if it didn't die from drops already: 1) Broodlords but lose to drop and base race. 2) Go back to ling/bling/muta which really can't end a game. Most Zerg die if the Ultra transition couldn't cripple Terran's productions, which is very hard to do with sim-city and Ultra's pathing. The timing is tight as well. Having said that I am not sure Ultra buff is the right change. Marauders are strong against Ultra. There is not much you can do about it. The problem for late game Zerg is a lack of viable composition. They are either too immobile, or they are not effective at laying siege. I believe a lot of problems come from Zerg's bad AA and the consequential inability to kill a lifted CC means Zerg can't really hurt Terran's economy with the mule mechanic. If Zerg had more ways to limit Terran's econ they will be able to trade away resources for a bust in late game like Zerg is supposed to. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Edit: source for david kim grandmaster for all three races? | ||
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remember87
Sweden144 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 20:39 Incognoto wrote: Ultralisks are designed to be a sort of brute force option so buffing them in that role is a good idea. Edit: source for david kim grandmaster for all three races? I believe he was early in WoL. Nowadays he is i believe around top ML-low GM as random. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On August 20 2013 20:24 lolfail9001 wrote: Last time i checked, mech did not really suffer from ultras. Though to be fair, now ultras always win 1v1 against thors, so it has changed i guess. Better re-check. Ultras do fine against mech nowadays. Hellbats might be tankier than hellions, but that is more than compensated for by the far higher attack of ultras vs light units. Ultras currently are completely viable vs mech. It is just that swarmhosts are a more popular option since they are great vs mech. But with ultras you can always add vipers also, and then also they walk over mech. On August 20 2013 20:28 lolfail9001 wrote: Why does not anyone ever thinks, that this is buff to lategame hellbats (that are pretty good, surprise!). Guess what, now since upgrades for vikings and hellbats are the same and at some point you will end up upgrading vikings (because you know, 3-3-3 collosi are pretty tanky against 0-0-0 vikings, no matter the bonus) you will also upgrade hellbats to deal with those 20 zealot after-battle warp-ins i remember some terrans complaining about. Hellbats are in front during a fight, they don't survive fights, so also not there for the after-battle warpin. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 20 2013 20:50 Sissors wrote: Better re-check. Ultras done fine against mech nowadays. Hellbats might be tankier than hellions, but that is more than compensated for by the far higher attack of ultras vs light units. Ultras currently are completely viable vs mech. It is just that swarmhosts are a more popular option since they are great vs mech. But with ultras you can always add vipers also, and then also they walk over mech. Well you are right about ultras looking fine vs mech. But - apart from noone playing mech so it's hard to tell - the main reason against ultras is upgrades. You can't go for a melee focused midgame against it, so you'll always end up on 0-2 or 0-3 ultralisks if you wanted them, compared to 3-3 roach/hydra/swarm hosts. The choice is pretty easy which one to take then. | ||
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hearters
Singapore224 Posts
On August 20 2013 20:39 Incognoto wrote: Edit: source for david kim grandmaster for all three races? opening post of http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402929 says he is low-GM in all 3 races in march 2013. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 20:50 Sissors wrote: Better re-check. Ultras done fine against mech nowadays. Hellbats might be tankier than hellions, but that is more than compensated for by the far higher attack of ultras vs light units. Ultras currently are completely viable vs mech. It is just that swarmhosts are a more popular option since they are great vs mech. But with ultras you can always add vipers also, and then also they walk over mech. Hellbats are in front during a fight, they don't survive fights, so also not there for the after-battle warpin. Last time i have seen ultras against kinda-high-level mech they stucked between buildings and died. Twice. Hellbats may not survive the fight, but they shall deal with after-battle warpin, as long as it is not on other end of map IMO. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Buffing the Ultralisk is unnecessary, useless, and possibly problematic in the future. They need to give Zerg better defense options while securing a 4th base and transitioning to hive tech, once you GET there, it's already a pretty fair fight. The best places to look IMO are Roaches, Hydras, and Infestors (for the love of god don't buff fungal though). All three are easily available at that point, and all three are lackluster vs bio-mine, and all 3 would ideally force a more complex solution from Terran (like including Siege Tanks), but whatever, I'm no game designer, I just wish the designers knew wtf they were doing. | ||
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goody153
44311 Posts
mech attack upgrade buff - theoretically this will help terran transition to mech according to balance team .. but i have no idea whether this is good or bad .. this will certainly help tvp even a little .. but idk how will this affect tvz ultralisk health buff - i dont think its necessary to have this buff .. though i do see ultralisk melting to 3/3 marauders very quickly from time to time .. so i would understand the buff .. i just dont think it will make a big difference in the late game | ||
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goody153
44311 Posts
On August 20 2013 21:09 Jermstuddog wrote: Blizzards lack of understanding the issues in TvZ is sad. Buffing the Ultralisk is unnecessary, useless, and possibly problematic in the future. They need to give Zerg better defense options while securing a 4th base and transitioning to hive tech, once you GET there, it's already a pretty fair fight. The best places to look IMO are Roaches, Hydras, and Infestors (for the love of god don't buff fungal though). All three are easily available at that point, and all three are lackluster vs bio-mine, and all 3 would ideally force a more complex solution from Terran (like including Siege Tanks), but whatever, I'm no game designer, I just wish the designers knew wtf they were doing. i agree that lair-tech units can be buffed .. since in the zvt the issue is not the lategame but the lairtech 2/2 zerg not surviving the transition against 2/2 incoming 3/3 bio-mine unlimited push .. and no to fungal buff ... please ... just no .. | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
Ultras are pretty damn good in HotS relative to WoL. I don't know about balance but this could bring back rushing to Ultras in ZvZ. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 21:09 Jermstuddog wrote: Blizzards lack of understanding the issues in TvZ is sad. Buffing the Ultralisk is unnecessary, useless, and possibly problematic in the future. They need to give Zerg better defense options while securing a 4th base and transitioning to hive tech, once you GET there, it's already a pretty fair fight. The best places to look IMO are Roaches, Hydras, and Infestors (for the love of god don't buff fungal though). All three are easily available at that point, and all three are lackluster vs bio-mine, and all 3 would ideally force a more complex solution from Terran (like including Siege Tanks), but whatever, I'm no game designer, I just wish the designers knew wtf they were doing. Buffing roaches and hydras may have consequences in ZvP :S. And it really looks to me, that they are trying their hardest not to nerf terran and in the same time can't really figure out where the real problem lies (and it is hard, because that upgrade disadvantage coming into late game for zerg is just part of a problem, not the largest one either). | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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etherealfall
Australia476 Posts
On August 20 2013 20:42 lolfail9001 wrote: I believe he was early in WoL. Nowadays he is i believe around top ML-low GM as random. source? i thought he was more about gold - plat in HOTS. source: internet troll | ||
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hearters
Singapore224 Posts
On August 20 2013 21:30 JustPassingBy wrote: I wonder whether the developers ever thought of decreasing the trigger time of the widow mine as a legitimate nerf. A decreased trigger time would make it easier to suicide units into the mine to prevent more expensive units being hit. I like this, though it seems like such a giant change that I doubt Blizzard would do it. Give players 1 or 2 range where they can see the mine "popped out" without being able to shoot it, and without being hit by the mine, but once you enter mine range, let the mine fire immediately. Sounds reasonable. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 20 2013 21:30 JustPassingBy wrote: I wonder whether the developers ever thought of decreasing the trigger time of the widow mine as a legitimate nerf. A decreased trigger time would make it easier to suicide units into the mine to prevent more expensive units being hit. They are trying to help zerg by not buffing terran though. They are taking a different approach then what they did in wol which I agree with, why nerf when you can buff instead? Of course I don't know if the 50 health change will change much in zvt, or maybe it will who knows. I am just glad blizzard realizes that late game tvz is terran favored by quiet a bit right now. 90% of macro zvt's I watch now of days if they are macro games zerg loses if zerg can't kill them with muta/ling/bane. Rare for me to see a late game zerg win in zvt atm. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play. Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well. Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude. | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
That being said, I do agree that the ultra buff may not be quite the right change in tournament play and may have significant ramifications in lower level play. On the latter point, the children in this thread should refrain from blindly whining about the ultra buff's impact on their play. Realize instead that David Kim does not care about you. Balance is only reserved for the highest level in the game. | ||
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