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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 19:22 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 19:17 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 19:12 SiroKO wrote:On August 20 2013 19:07 Qikz wrote:On August 20 2013 18:35 Msr wrote:On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote:
I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg.
This change, will make it impossible. hallucination phoenix is the most effective scouting imo.... plus its not like an overseer wont see everything important already anyway the changes are both very bad. Battlecruisers are too strong vs zerg, but not very viable atm. Anything that can potentially make this transition easier is probably not going to be good unless zerg gets an anti air unit soon.ultra change is w/e, does not address tvz issue. regardless of balance changes mines need to take priority from attacking units so that lings/bling dont just run over them in fights. The fact this has not been addressed yet baffles me. I would suggest making 3/3 upgradeable with a lair. You realisw that pure corrupter actually beats skyterran as long as you don't clump up and get everything seeker missiled right? Just spread out like Terran does with vikings vs zerg due to fungal and you'll be fine. Also if they're going mech (more likely to sky transition) you should really be getting air upgrades. Mass corruptors/swarmhosts/vipers + mass spores/spines actually beat EVERY SINGLE TERRAN COMPOSITION, including skyterran. The Terran can't break your position, and given abduct's range, you will slowly kill every single one of his. pure corruptor is like the worst thing vs skyterran. PDD + seeker + vikings own that really hard. mass spore SH viper works only if T forgets to just nuke locusts and after that use the timing window to just nuke all spores and spines and win the game or if Z goes back move forward. You realize they are overseers and that spore have detection. Thus how are you suppose to nuke anything given the endless swarm of locus and the eventuality of getting abducted. Even if the nukes land, you are trading minerals/gaz (nuke) for pure minerals or static position (if Zerg retreats).
under support of PDD, or simply by standing at the flank of locusts you can land nuke, if it is well timed. And job of nuke is not to destroy army, but to zone it away, while taking ground with BC-raven-Company.
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Ultralisks buff wont help at all, because zerg still have big trouble to find the time to go Hive. Look the last two weeks of wcs&wcg. All games except one game at Innovation vs Soulkey Terran had 3-3 before Zerg Hive was done and always at this time Zerg has to write GG.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 19:26 Dingodile wrote:
Ultralisks buff wont help at all, because zerg still have big trouble to find the time to go Hive. Look the last two weeks of wcs&wcg. All games except one game at Innovation vs Soulkey Terran had 3-3 before Zerg Hive was done and always at this time Zerg has to write GG.
Pretty much this. I don't remember when last time there was a Korean Level TvZ where sides were on even footing in upgrades and stuff.
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Austria24417 Posts
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech?
You missed about 2 pages of discussion. I think it could work.... But then zergs SUDDENLY would not have resources to find to get 3-3 on lair tech even.
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On August 20 2013 19:12 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 19:07 Qikz wrote:On August 20 2013 18:35 Msr wrote:On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote:
I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg.
This change, will make it impossible. hallucination phoenix is the most effective scouting imo.... plus its not like an overseer wont see everything important already anyway the changes are both very bad. Battlecruisers are too strong vs zerg, but not very viable atm. Anything that can potentially make this transition easier is probably not going to be good unless zerg gets an anti air unit soon.ultra change is w/e, does not address tvz issue. regardless of balance changes mines need to take priority from attacking units so that lings/bling dont just run over them in fights. The fact this has not been addressed yet baffles me. I would suggest making 3/3 upgradeable with a lair. You realisw that pure corrupter actually beats skyterran as long as you don't clump up and get everything seeker missiled right? Just spread out like Terran does with vikings vs zerg due to fungal and you'll be fine. Also if they're going mech (more likely to sky transition) you should really be getting air upgrades. Mass corruptors/swarmhosts/vipers + mass spores/spines actually beat EVERY SINGLE TERRAN COMPOSITION, including skyterran. The Terran can't break your position, and given abduct's range, you will slowly kill every single one of his. This is the issue with vipers. The unit is in most situations underpowered, but they are a few lategame scenario where the unit becomes virtually the most imbalanced unit in the game. Abduct is the reason for all this.
First of, MMM beats this easily for as long as you run around the locusts, you need a lot of infestors too against MMM. (try 100marines vs 33swarm hosts in a unit tester; the outcome will be 33dead swarm hosts and 20-30dead marines; and that's a supply vs supply battle, disregarding how swarm hosts cost much more)
Edit: did I say for as long as you run around the locusts? I meant when you amove into them you still win quite handily, but running around them is of course cleverer.
Secondly, ghosts and Vikings kill Vipers when they try to abduct, nukes are pretty amazing against Static D play as well. We have hardly any evidence of which composition would come out ahead in a Mech/sky/PF/Turret vs swarmhost/corruptor/Spine/Spore/Infestor/Viper war. On paper it sounds like neither player can attack into the other, and as long as Terran has enough firepower to kill the locusts before they do damage, it should be a stalemate.
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Austria24417 Posts
On August 20 2013 19:29 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? You missed about 2 pages of discussion. I think it could work.... But then zergs SUDDENLY would not have resources to find to get 3-3 on lair tech even.
What about the Crackling upgrade then? I don't think having that available at say infestation pit would break either matchup and zerg might start trading more effectively
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On August 20 2013 19:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 19:29 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? You missed about 2 pages of discussion. I think it could work.... But then zergs SUDDENLY would not have resources to find to get 3-3 on lair tech even. What about the Crackling upgrade then? I don't think having that available at say infestation pit would break either matchup and zerg might start trading more effectively
Maybe zergs would actually research adrenal glands, too...
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Austria24417 Posts
On August 20 2013 19:33 shabby wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 19:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 20 2013 19:29 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? You missed about 2 pages of discussion. I think it could work.... But then zergs SUDDENLY would not have resources to find to get 3-3 on lair tech even. What about the Crackling upgrade then? I don't think having that available at say infestation pit would break either matchup and zerg might start trading more effectively Maybe zergs would actually research adrenal glands, too...
It's a sick good upgrade and totally underused. It makes lings trade better due to faster attack speed. That's pretty much exactly what zerg needs. And having it available at infestation pit would also buff ling/infestor so more diversity could come from it.
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On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different.
It's an incredibly ugly fix to make 3/3 no longer tied to the t3 building. Now there will be games where zerg can go for mutaling and they never need to transition away from it because they don't need to invest into infestation pit + hive. Maybe it will work just to fix the current ZvT, but what if the metagame changes? (I know that terran already works this way, but it leads to problems doesn't it?)
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Italy12246 Posts
On August 20 2013 19:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 19:33 shabby wrote:On August 20 2013 19:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 20 2013 19:29 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? You missed about 2 pages of discussion. I think it could work.... But then zergs SUDDENLY would not have resources to find to get 3-3 on lair tech even. What about the Crackling upgrade then? I don't think having that available at say infestation pit would break either matchup and zerg might start trading more effectively Maybe zergs would actually research adrenal glands, too... It's a sick good upgrade and totally underused. It makes lings trade better due to faster attack speed. That's pretty much exactly what zerg needs. And having it available at infestation pit would also buff ling/infestor so more diversity could come from it.
Underused? Every competent zerg at hive tech gets it.
Anyway, blizzard is desperate not to nerf the mine so they are trying to do something else...and failing miserably. I don't understand TvZ well enough to suggest changes, but i'm pretty sure an ultra buff is meaningless.
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On August 20 2013 19:22 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 19:17 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 19:12 SiroKO wrote:On August 20 2013 19:07 Qikz wrote:On August 20 2013 18:35 Msr wrote:On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote:
I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg.
This change, will make it impossible. hallucination phoenix is the most effective scouting imo.... plus its not like an overseer wont see everything important already anyway the changes are both very bad. Battlecruisers are too strong vs zerg, but not very viable atm. Anything that can potentially make this transition easier is probably not going to be good unless zerg gets an anti air unit soon.ultra change is w/e, does not address tvz issue. regardless of balance changes mines need to take priority from attacking units so that lings/bling dont just run over them in fights. The fact this has not been addressed yet baffles me. I would suggest making 3/3 upgradeable with a lair. You realisw that pure corrupter actually beats skyterran as long as you don't clump up and get everything seeker missiled right? Just spread out like Terran does with vikings vs zerg due to fungal and you'll be fine. Also if they're going mech (more likely to sky transition) you should really be getting air upgrades. Mass corruptors/swarmhosts/vipers + mass spores/spines actually beat EVERY SINGLE TERRAN COMPOSITION, including skyterran. The Terran can't break your position, and given abduct's range, you will slowly kill every single one of his. pure corruptor is like the worst thing vs skyterran. PDD + seeker + vikings own that really hard. mass spore SH viper works only if T forgets to just nuke locusts and after that use the timing window to just nuke all spores and spines and win the game or if Z goes back move forward. You realize they are overseers and that spore have detection. Thus how are you suppose to nuke anything given the endless swarm of locus and the eventuality of getting abducted. Even if the nukes land, you are trading minerals/gaz (nuke) for pure minerals or static position (if Zerg retreats). Sure this unit composition does not equal auto-win and is hard to micro, but it is so cost-effective since Zerg doesn't lose anything except few mis-microed vipers here and there and some spores/spines.
nuke locusts, move in with your army and nuke spores spines. watch the lucifron vs gowser (not sure if it was him) on newkirk. if lucifron had build some ghosts and nuked from top and bottom it wouldnt have been a problem. and trading lets say 400 gas for 4 nukes while gaining a lot of positioning or even killing spines spores is huge. lucifron lost countless BCs which is 300 gas each + lots of buildtime. nukes wouldve been way WAY better.
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OMG, just OMG. It's not like Zerg are doing bad, once they reach Ultralisk tech, they're doing bad before that happens. So buffing ultralisks, a unit in itself being absolutely strong, is the worst Idea, you could bring to the table.
It once more shows, how clueless David Kim and his team is about the current state of the game.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 19:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 19:33 shabby wrote:On August 20 2013 19:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 20 2013 19:29 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? You missed about 2 pages of discussion. I think it could work.... But then zergs SUDDENLY would not have resources to find to get 3-3 on lair tech even. What about the Crackling upgrade then? I don't think having that available at say infestation pit would break either matchup and zerg might start trading more effectively Maybe zergs would actually research adrenal glands, too... It's a sick good upgrade and totally underused. It makes lings trade better due to faster attack speed. That's pretty much exactly what zerg needs. And having it available at infestation pit would also buff ling/infestor so more diversity could come from it.
It is not underused. And having 2-2 lings with adrenal glands does not really help against 3-3 marines with healing from med-v fleet.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 19:41 TeeTS wrote:
OMG, just OMG. It's not like Zerg are doing bad, once they reach Ultralisk tech, they're doing bad before that happens. So buffing ultralisks, a unit in itself being absolutely strong, is the worst Idea, you could bring to the table.
It once more shows, how clueless David Kim and his team is about the current state of the game.
Keep quiet, they are trying their best not to nerf terran.
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Austria24417 Posts
On August 20 2013 19:36 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different. It's an incredibly ugly fix to make 3/3 no longer tied to the t3 building. Now there will be games where zerg can go for mutaling and they never need to transition away from it because they don't need to invest into infestation pit + hive. Maybe it will work just to fix the current ZvT, but what if the metagame changes? (I know that terran already works this way, but it leads to problems doesn't it?)
Well, all the races have a "step" in their upgrades. Terran has theirs at armory, protoss at twilight council and zerg at hive. The thing is that the step zerg has to take is a lot more expensive and takes a lot longer. So say all three races start upgrading at the exact same time, continue upgrading exactly when their upgrades finish. Protoss would finish first due to chronoboost, then terran and zerg. The thing is though, zerg has to invest the most money and time into those upgrades due to hive cost and building time. Which means they're the race that gets thrown off their upgrades the easiest. You can't invest into hive tech if you're under constant pressure just so you can then invest into 3/3 upgrades. As terran or protoss, the cost of armory or twilight council is a lot lower and comes at a timing were both races are generally not under pressure/ the pressure is light enough to allow for you to spend the resources into upgrading/ you need the building anyway to transition. As zerg, none of this is true. You need the hive for upgrades and if you can get them out, ultras. But during that time you're constantly under pressure (at least in TvZ) and you have to invest gas reactively into banelings whenever terran decides to attack - which with styles like Innovation's is all the time. That means if terran trades effectively, you can't afford to have resources banked to invest into something that will help you minutes from that point - or you'll die on the way there.
TL;DR: Hive for upgrades isn't as natural a transition as say infestation pit would be
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I don't mind the ultralisk buff. It turns out too strong, you can just buff something else down the line in pvz. People need to just chill out a little in this community, but thats nothing new.
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lol, I just realized they are testing this on Bel'Shire Vestige. I guess the next DK comment is going to be:
"On our testmap terran had 97% winrate in TvZ. Therefore we buff the ultraliks to have 10000HP."
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I think the changes are in the right direction and the right amount.
Disclosure: I'm a diamond zerg player
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EPT
