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On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different.
dont require hive tech and only requires an infestation pit, would be a good middle road i think
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On August 20 2013 19:41 TeeTS wrote:
OMG, just OMG. It's not like Zerg are doing bad, once they reach Ultralisk tech, they're doing bad before that happens. So buffing ultralisks, a unit in itself being absolutely strong, is the worst Idea, you could bring to the table.
It once more shows, how clueless David Kim and his team is about the current state of the game.
This is just ignorant. David Kim is grandmaster on all 3 races. Blizzard understands the game. Chill the Duck down.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 19:52 Big J wrote:
lol, I just realized they are testing this on Bel'Shire Vestige. I guess the next DK comment is going to be:
"On our testmap terran had 97% winrate in TvZ. Therefore we buff the ultraliks to have 10000HP."
Haha. Or they will say: on our testmap every zerg roach-bane all-ins Terran. Therefore we make widow mine do 145 (+15 to shields) damage :D
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yesss....
turtle terran mech -> mass planetary 4 base split map -> sky terran buff.
the transition to 3/3 air was difficult. not anymore!
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On August 20 2013 19:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 19:36 Grumbels wrote:On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different. It's an incredibly ugly fix to make 3/3 no longer tied to the t3 building. Now there will be games where zerg can go for mutaling and they never need to transition away from it because they don't need to invest into infestation pit + hive. Maybe it will work just to fix the current ZvT, but what if the metagame changes? (I know that terran already works this way, but it leads to problems doesn't it?) Well, all the races have a "step" in their upgrades. Terran has theirs at armory, protoss at twilight council and zerg at hive. The thing is that the step zerg has to take is a lot more expensive and takes a lot longer.
If the game reaches the T3 stage Zerg should have the highest economy and since they have the fewest number of buildings to construct it is only fair that their T3 upgrade costs a little more.
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On August 20 2013 19:38 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 19:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 20 2013 19:33 shabby wrote:On August 20 2013 19:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 20 2013 19:29 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? You missed about 2 pages of discussion. I think it could work.... But then zergs SUDDENLY would not have resources to find to get 3-3 on lair tech even. What about the Crackling upgrade then? I don't think having that available at say infestation pit would break either matchup and zerg might start trading more effectively Maybe zergs would actually research adrenal glands, too... It's a sick good upgrade and totally underused. It makes lings trade better due to faster attack speed. That's pretty much exactly what zerg needs. And having it available at infestation pit would also buff ling/infestor so more diversity could come from it. Underused? Every competent zerg at hive tech gets it. Anyway, blizzard is desperate not to nerf the mine so they are trying to do something else...and failing miserably. I don't understand TvZ well enough to suggest changes, but i'm pretty sure an ultra buff is meaningless.
Would be great if some really good people would post here to shed light on this matter.
Oh well hopefully we'll have META tonight to talk about it.
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Austria24417 Posts
On August 20 2013 20:02 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 19:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 20 2013 19:36 Grumbels wrote:On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different. It's an incredibly ugly fix to make 3/3 no longer tied to the t3 building. Now there will be games where zerg can go for mutaling and they never need to transition away from it because they don't need to invest into infestation pit + hive. Maybe it will work just to fix the current ZvT, but what if the metagame changes? (I know that terran already works this way, but it leads to problems doesn't it?) Well, all the races have a "step" in their upgrades. Terran has theirs at armory, protoss at twilight council and zerg at hive. The thing is that the step zerg has to take is a lot more expensive and takes a lot longer. If the game reaches the T3 stage Zerg should have the highest economy and since they have the fewest number of buildings to construct it is only fair that their T3 upgrade costs a little more.
"Should" is not a legitimate argument.
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On August 20 2013 19:12 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 19:07 Qikz wrote:On August 20 2013 18:35 Msr wrote:On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote:
I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg.
This change, will make it impossible. hallucination phoenix is the most effective scouting imo.... plus its not like an overseer wont see everything important already anyway the changes are both very bad. Battlecruisers are too strong vs zerg, but not very viable atm. Anything that can potentially make this transition easier is probably not going to be good unless zerg gets an anti air unit soon.ultra change is w/e, does not address tvz issue. regardless of balance changes mines need to take priority from attacking units so that lings/bling dont just run over them in fights. The fact this has not been addressed yet baffles me. I would suggest making 3/3 upgradeable with a lair. You realisw that pure corrupter actually beats skyterran as long as you don't clump up and get everything seeker missiled right? Just spread out like Terran does with vikings vs zerg due to fungal and you'll be fine. Also if they're going mech (more likely to sky transition) you should really be getting air upgrades. Mass corruptors/swarmhosts/vipers + mass spores/spines actually beat EVERY SINGLE TERRAN COMPOSITION, including skyterran. The Terran can't break your position, and given abduct's range, you will slowly kill every single one of his. This is the issue with vipers. The unit is in most situations underpowered, but they are a few lategame scenario where the unit becomes virtually the most imbalanced unit in the game. Abduct is the reason for all this.
that is literally the worst idea i have ever heard. the do-fuck-all-nothing-for-an-hour zerg turtle build.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 20:02 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 19:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 20 2013 19:36 Grumbels wrote:On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different. It's an incredibly ugly fix to make 3/3 no longer tied to the t3 building. Now there will be games where zerg can go for mutaling and they never need to transition away from it because they don't need to invest into infestation pit + hive. Maybe it will work just to fix the current ZvT, but what if the metagame changes? (I know that terran already works this way, but it leads to problems doesn't it?) Well, all the races have a "step" in their upgrades. Terran has theirs at armory, protoss at twilight council and zerg at hive. The thing is that the step zerg has to take is a lot more expensive and takes a lot longer. If the game reaches the T3 stage Zerg should have the highest economy and since they have the fewest number of buildings to construct it is only fair that their T3 upgrade costs a little more.
Key word is should. Yet sad story is that only T3 thing in modern TvZ are 3-3 upgrades (and anyway, i refuse to admit, that 3-3 upgrades for terran is T3 tech, it is T2 tech anyway :S) and when zerg finally gets his T3 at that infamous 'tip-top' level, his economy at best is even with T's.
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On August 20 2013 20:02 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 19:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:On August 20 2013 19:36 Grumbels wrote:On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different. It's an incredibly ugly fix to make 3/3 no longer tied to the t3 building. Now there will be games where zerg can go for mutaling and they never need to transition away from it because they don't need to invest into infestation pit + hive. Maybe it will work just to fix the current ZvT, but what if the metagame changes? (I know that terran already works this way, but it leads to problems doesn't it?) Well, all the races have a "step" in their upgrades. Terran has theirs at armory, protoss at twilight council and zerg at hive. The thing is that the step zerg has to take is a lot more expensive and takes a lot longer. If the game reaches the T3 stage Zerg should have the highest economy and since they have the fewest number of buildings to construct it is only fair that their T3 upgrade costs a little more.
Compare sniping a hatchery and killing a CC. Then consider mules. "Should" zerg really have a better economy?
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Maybe one issue is that zerg players commit to only one path in lair tech and then everything else they want requires hive tech. As a result the distance between lair and hive tech starts to seem unsurmountable. Instead of reducing this distance (quicker/cheaper hive tech) you could also add more meaningful stops along the way, either by adding more synergy between lair units or by downgrading some hive upgrades to lair. Yet another option is to slow down terran/protoss.
Keep in mind that zerg players used to not get hive in 2011 and it was seen as a problem.
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The Overseer buff should help Zerg players to detect widow mines before their whole muta stack gets blown to smithereens. Scouting with upgraded Overseers should also now be easier, although Zerg scouting that late in the game will not do much to help create a counter to whatever the Terran player is doing.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 20:15 Grumbels wrote:
Maybe one issue is that zerg players commit to only one path in lair tech and then everything else they want requires hive tech. As a result the distance between lair and hive tech starts to seem unsurmountable. Instead of reducing this distance (quicker/cheaper hive tech) you could also add more meaningful stops along the way, either by adding more synergy between lair units or by downgrading some hive upgrades to lair. Yet another option is to slow down terran/protoss.
Well, as far as i know there are only 3 real tech paths in lair tech:
1st one is hydra den and swarm hosts. Should i comment on it?
2nd one is muta with possible follow-up at hive tech.
3rd one is infestors with possible follow-up in form of hive tech.
Also, there are only +3 upgrades, ultralisk armor (that is pointless at lair tech, as you cannot have cavern at lair tech lol) and adrenal glands (that are GOOOOD, but not 3-3 level good, cause **** zergling DPS nerf between BW and SC2).
So only real synergy you can add is synergy either between hydraling (that is used in ZvP as pre-muta-transition pressure AFAIK), hydraroach (nuff said), muta /corruptor + something(muta ling bane and hydraroach corruptor are already in place) and infestor + something (infestor + infestor... oh the good times :D). And since nowadays infestors do not stop drops, hydras do not catch 'em and corruptors... well, don't catch 'em either. Only reliable lair tech in TvZ looks to be muta tech.
Option of slowing down terran and/or protoss is even uglier, than speeding up Hive tech for zerg IMO (though i remember level 2 upgrades for terran requiring those Science Facilities :D).
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I like how whatever they buff to fight mmmm, mech suffers the most.
About tvz with mmmm based, it mostly depends on the zerg being able to break the biowreckingball to be able to tech out of lair in a good spot, not having better units on lategame imho.
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the problem with ZvT imo isnt the lategame, if zerg can take the game into the later stages, sitting comfy on 4 or 5 bases, its usually fine but more so the problem is to get there. Right now unless you want to rush hive tech (incredibly risky) you need anti air to deal with the medivacs, unfortunately mutalisks are the only thing that cuts it (or corruptors if you play a very defensive style like yugioh) which means that hive tech and 3-3 will be delayed a LOT if you want to play it somewhat safe.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 20:22 Godwrath wrote:
I like how whatever they buff to fight mmmm, mech suffers the most.
Last time i checked, mech did not really suffer from ultras. Though to be fair, now ultras always win 1v1 against thors, so it has changed i guess.
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With this buff to the ships upgrade, will we see at least one Battle Cruiser in that game ? They became even rarer that the Carrier. Anyways...
Overseer buff is good, mech upgrades - meh, don't care. 10% more HP on the ultra is... Rather insignificant. Maybe it will be good vs protoss(they will tank like 2 more shots from immortal LOL) and will make them even more godlike vs marines, marauders still don't care. This buff is like saying "This is what you build in hive tech, because we told you so !!!". The change to the Viper was much more fun... Well I don't blame them for stepping back from it, "the community" was about to kill them.
EDIT: If they want to buff Ultras, bring back the Burrow charge. It was the funniest ability I've ever used and actually is a proper counter to the "Protoss deathball". I mean yeah, bring back the fun stuff.
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The discussion about upgrades cost and tier is pointless, because mules/injects/chronoboost make it way too complex to compare. Zergs spend way less ressources on buildings, but is it balanced because of less cost effective units or more expensive upgrades? Should protoss upgrades take longer to research because of chronoboost? Or should their upgrades cost more? etc..
To me that's what make the game so hard to balance, and really breaks it. Injects/chrono/mules introduce too many variables, you can't just compare terran and zerg upgrades like that. It doesn't take 2+mn for zerg's 3rd base production to come online, nor does it costs 800/200 or so. On the other end hive is expensive, and it's hard to get it while mid game agression is going on. But one lucky bane hit can change everything, as can one mine hit...
I also disagree with the balance choices that are made, but I also disagree that making those choices is easy. As much as infestors were blatantly broken in WoL, HOTS TvZ is a whole different thing.
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On August 20 2013 20:24 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 20:22 Godwrath wrote:
I like how whatever they buff to fight mmmm, mech suffers the most. Last time i checked, mech did not really suffer from ultras. Though to be fair, now ultras always win 1v1 against thors, so it has changed i guess.
I am pointing out that a lategame upgrade doesn't help against mmmm on midgame, while it actually works for techswitches against mech the most.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 20:25 Pr0wler wrote:
With this buff to the ships upgrade, will we see at least one Battle Cruiser in that game ? They became even rarer that the Carrier. Anyways...
Why does not anyone ever thinks, that this is buff to lategame hellbats (that are pretty good, surprise!). Guess what, now since upgrades for vikings and hellbats are the same and at some point you will end up upgrading vikings (because you know, 3-3-3 collosi are pretty tanky against 0-0-0 vikings, no matter the bonus) you will also upgrade hellbats to deal with those 20 zealot after-battle warp-ins i remember some terrans complaining about.
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EPT
