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Zerg needs no buff at all.
Zerg players just need to adapt, like blizzard said to terrans for 3 whole years of nerfs.
They can give ultralisk 120000hp buff as bad as their micro is but the whole concept of an rts is that amoving units should not gonna grant you wins, period.
I've read pages and pages full of theories about cost effectivness of mines, without one single word about the friendly fire they manage to do. Zerg with proper micro (so i refer only to 2-3 players in the world) can definitely make mines deadly for the terran too. The problem is that AMOVING should be neglected at every stage of the game: buffing ultralisk is just plain wrong. Zerg just has to improve.
I know it takes longer than infestor buff or BL/infestor alone but it's pretty fun to get better without any patch. Actually even zerg user should enjoy this experience for the first time in 4 years.
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On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 21:48 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude. Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better. I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed. But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary. The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:27 Stilgorn wrote:
Zerg needs no buff at all.
Zerg players just need to adapt, like blizzard said to terrans for 3 whole years of nerfs.
They can give ultralisk 120000hp buff as bad as their micro is but the whole concept of an rts is that amoving units should not gonna grant you wins, period.
I've read pages and pages full of theories about cost effectivness of mines, without one single word about the friendly fire they manage to do. Zerg with proper micro (so i refer only to 2-3 players in the world) can definitely make mines deadly for the terran too. The problem is that AMOVING should be neglected at every stage of the game: buffing ultralisk is just plain wrong. Zerg just has to improve.
I know it takes longer than infestor buff or BL/infestor alone but it's pretty fun to get better without any patch. Actually even zerg user should enjoy this experience for the first time in 4 years.
Not sure if troll or high masters terran :S
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What I never understood is zergs claiming hydras are useless. Already in WoL they did it, while in WoL it wasn't that often used, it was an important part of ZvZ. Now in HotS they still claim hydra is useless and never used, while it is still often used in ZvZ, and aditionally also in ZvP. Also in ZvT vs mech builds it works fine. So I don't see how buffing the hydra to be also good vs bio wouldn't break the other situations.
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On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 21:48 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude. Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better. I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed. But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary. The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
On August 20 2013 22:31 Sissors wrote:
What I never understood is zergs claiming hydras are useless. Already in WoL they did it, while in WoL it wasn't that often used, it was an important part of ZvZ. Now in HotS they still claim hydra is useless and never used, while it is still often used in ZvZ, and aditionally also in ZvP. Also in ZvT vs mech builds it works fine. So I don't see how buffing the hydra to be also good vs bio wouldn't break the other situations.
hydras are only used in ZvZ now that spores do insane damage to mutas. thats not because hydras are suddenly good. ZvT they are horrible vs bio and how are hydras good vs mech? BC, abduct and SHs are good vs mech...hydras just happen to support that a bit but basically roaches do the same job. its not hydras that make unit comps like SH, hydra viper good vs mech, its SHs and viper. and ZvP...there is ling + some hydras into mutas or roach hydra viper all in. thats it. hydras in macro compositions lategame vs storm, HTs and even mass voids? not really seen that often although they are used mostly in ZvP. slightly buffing hydras will in no way make them too strong.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 21:48 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude. Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better. I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed. But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary. The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
Logic mode engaged: no matter what blizzard do, there will always be complaints that they either:
A. screwed up terran with mention of queen patch.
B. did not fix the issue with mention of game, that was lost by zerg from the very beginning (ala failed roach bane all-in teeheehee).
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:31 Sissors wrote:
What I never understood is zergs claiming hydras are useless. Already in WoL they did it, while in WoL it wasn't that often used, it was an important part of ZvZ. Now in HotS they still claim hydra is useless and never used, while it is still often used in ZvZ, and aditionally also in ZvP. Also in ZvT vs mech builds it works fine. So I don't see how buffing the hydra to be also good vs bio wouldn't break the other situations.
In ZvT vs mech builds everything works, as long as it either flies either has vipers with it :D. Point is that against bio builds hydra is trash to put it blunt in macro game (not as part of 2-2 timing for example).
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On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 21:48 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude. Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better. I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed. But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary. The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
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Buffing everything, not protoss. Still no protoss big results, just duckdeok.
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Italy12247 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:34 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:31 Sissors wrote:
What I never understood is zergs claiming hydras are useless. Already in WoL they did it, while in WoL it wasn't that often used, it was an important part of ZvZ. Now in HotS they still claim hydra is useless and never used, while it is still often used in ZvZ, and aditionally also in ZvP. Also in ZvT vs mech builds it works fine. So I don't see how buffing the hydra to be also good vs bio wouldn't break the other situations. In ZvT vs mech builds everything works, as long as it either flies either has vipers with it :D. Point is that against bio builds hydra is trash to put it blunt in macro game (not as part of 2-2 timing for example).
Why should every unit always be viable in a macro game? I think hydras are ok atm tbh.
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I only like the overseer change here, I think the combined armor upgrade for air and mech is enough and it feels a lot more unique and interesting the way it is.
The Ultralisk heath increase? Where did that come from.. is there really anyone complaining that ultras die to fast? With transfuse the ultras are already being compared to Hero units. And yeah if you run an ultra pack into mass marauder without any back up they die but they are meant to die to that. However Ultras like all t3 units should not be to strong on their own but make an army much more powerful when they are apart of it. Try sending in pure colossi vs marines and see how you do, the unit they are suppose to counter crush them.
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On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 21:48 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude. Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better. I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed. But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary. The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game?
A unit that is used awfully much for a supposedly bad unit.
finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement?
Are ovidrops bad, or are they not useful in the metagame? I have now in plenty of failed attempts to mech vs zerg seen the strength of ovidrops. Imagine you are at 200/200, with your army somewhere halfway on the map. And now your opponent spends 16 supply on a drop, while also doing an assault on your army. If your opponent is terran that means 12 marines in your base, for a toss it is 7 zealots (both assuming they even come through your turret ring, which isn't that likely tbh). Now zerg does the same, with a bunch of ovis to soak up shots of turrets added. Congratulations, you now have 32 cracklings running around your base while your army is in the middle of the map.
You can buff nydus, but only if you completely rework it to be less effective at the same time. I still don't think it is a bad idea to introduce different types of nydus worms, but just buffing the current one for its assault role is imo very bad. It gives a direct path between zerg base and your main. If that has a good chance of being established it is simply OP.
Burrow movement is not popular currently, but that is also partly due to metagame. Vs mech it is way more useful than vs bio. And it is for example much harder to spot than cloaked units.
Regarding burrow, I also never understood why zergs aren't much more active with using burrowed banelings vs bio. The few pros who use them often burrow them in fairly bad spots tbh. Where a normal creep clearing scan / scan to see where zerg army is hanging out already spots them. Start by burrowing them pretty much outside the natural of the terran and he has to spend a fortune on scans or get a quick raven.
On August 20 2013 22:34 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:31 Sissors wrote:
What I never understood is zergs claiming hydras are useless. Already in WoL they did it, while in WoL it wasn't that often used, it was an important part of ZvZ. Now in HotS they still claim hydra is useless and never used, while it is still often used in ZvZ, and aditionally also in ZvP. Also in ZvT vs mech builds it works fine. So I don't see how buffing the hydra to be also good vs bio wouldn't break the other situations. In ZvT vs mech builds everything works, as long as it either flies either has vipers with it :D. Point is that against bio builds hydra is trash to put it blunt in macro game (not as part of 2-2 timing for example).
Not denying that, however:
1. Zergs/toss complain terran mainly use tier 1 units, you will not decrease that by further nerfing mech.
2. They are also often used vs zergs and toss. Especially the idea of giving it +2 range with its upgrade will have only limitted effect vs terran. (It is not like you are going to kite bio, and it also wasn't like bio could kite hydras), but it will have huge effect vs toss all-ins. They completely rely on forcefields, and one more range then for hydras will have a huge effect on their effectiveness.
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On August 20 2013 22:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 21:48 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude. Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better. I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed. But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary. The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T). I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it. As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful?
NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU.
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I still think a nerf to widow mines is much more necessary than any buff you could give zerg
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On August 20 2013 22:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 21:48 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude. Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better. I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed. But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary. The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T). I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it. As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
no, no need to buff all of it, i just meant all of it should be fixed in LotV. but 1-2 things like faster ovispeed to make drops more viable and unload nydus faster + slightly stronger hydras is small adjustments that can be implemented right now.
as for figuring out timings...maybe yes, maybe no. the thing is that bio mine is in no way an all in. even in the games Z pushes T back, T just also gets a 4th, has 3 3 on the way and is in an even spot.
also there are timings that just cant be figured out: 1 1 1 is one example that wasnt figured out for months until immo +1 range buff, sentry immortal in WoL was never figured out and held P at 50% winrate, 2 rax in TvZ is still strong etc. some timings will stay strong or even OP if figured out without balance patches. and i like that blizz approach is to buff stuff so even if they mess up right now with overbuffing things...they buff the other race to compensate which will give all races stronger units/mechanics etc. in the end and make for more fun games.
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Until Mech is somewhat viable in all matchups there is not much point talking about balance.
Give Tanks higher damage OR bonus damage vs shields. Then Terran actually gets a strategic choice, plus it would be more intresting for the opponents as well since they would not have to play against MMM every single game.
After Tanks have become useful and the backbone of viable Mech, then look at balance against and see what needs to be adjusted.
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I think they should do something with broodlords and corruptors instead.
Maybe add more movement speed to broodlord, while increasing upgrade effectiveness for corruptors.
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United States23455 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:27 Stilgorn wrote:
Zerg needs no buff at all.
Zerg players just need to adapt, like blizzard said to terrans for 3 whole years of nerfs.
They can give ultralisk 120000hp buff as bad as their micro is but the whole concept of an rts is that amoving units should not gonna grant you wins, period.
I've read pages and pages full of theories about cost effectivness of mines, without one single word about the friendly fire they manage to do. Zerg with proper micro (so i refer only to 2-3 players in the world) can definitely make mines deadly for the terran too. The problem is that AMOVING should be neglected at every stage of the game: buffing ultralisk is just plain wrong. Zerg just has to improve.
I know it takes longer than infestor buff or BL/infestor alone but it's pretty fun to get better without any patch. Actually even zerg user should enjoy this experience for the first time in 4 years.
Your last sentence confuses me. Are you saying that Zerg has been OP for the last 4 years?
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United States33691 Posts
I want to see them mess around with putting 3/3 upgrades at lair
it would be interesting to see at least :D
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