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On August 20 2013 23:05 saddaromma wrote:
David Kim is so determined to leave 4M as it is and balance the game around it. Pretty terrible approach.
I disagree. I think that WoL showed that constant nerfs just make the game less enjoyable to play and to spectate.
I think the Ultralisk buff will help, but it misses the real issue of ZvT, which is Zerg's inability to trade at all efficaciously in the mid game.
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On August 20 2013 23:11 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 23:09 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:02 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:43 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:37 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T). I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it. As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general. So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful? NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU. I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out. It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights: +5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0(this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?) +20 seconds to Warp Gate research time Before this, 4 gate was the ONLY build in PvZ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.3Removal of Khaydarin Amulet If TvP ever got to 4+ bases on both sides, Protoss wins because warp-in storms were too powerful. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.0All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken. That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings? The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed... I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months. Great, buff, don't nerf, I get it. The game has stagnated around 4M timings, Blizzard SHOULD intervene with a balance change here.
Hots has been out for 5 months and there have been some pretty big shifts in that time. MMMM maybe be really good, but that could change. There is nothing worse for the game than punishing players for getting good with a set of units by nerfing them. The best way to fix the issue is to give the other race a way to respond that is just as powerful.
If they are going to nerf the widow mine, they should just increase it’s burrow time in creep until the drilling claws upgrade is obtained.
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I'm from the ones who think the issues in TvZ come from the random success of mines hits, very hard to control as a terran or as a zerg.
I think the ultralisk buff is just a way to hide a design trouble by nice balance statistics 
It's like the general protoss design trouble.
Maybe blizzard should ask to himself others questions than "balance issues".
(sorry for my english)
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On August 20 2013 23:12 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 23:02 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:43 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:37 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:On August 20 2013 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote:
[quote]
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking. That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment. Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T). I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it. As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general. So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful? NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU. I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out. It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights: +5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0(this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?) +20 seconds to Warp Gate research time Before this, 4 gate was the ONLY build in PvZ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.3Removal of Khaydarin Amulet If TvP ever got to 4+ bases on both sides, Protoss wins because warp-in storms were too powerful. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.0All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken. That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings? The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed... You have no idea what you're talking about lol. The Zealot build time was to nerf macro 2 Gate openings in PvZ which wasn't broken at all. The warpgate time nerf was to help PvP which was dominated by 4 Gate at the time, 4 Gate was never an issue vs Zerg, let alone being the 'only' build. Khaydarian Amulet was strong but nowhere near Infestor BL at all in terms of broken-ness. Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 23:12 DinoMight wrote:
I'm Protoss.. no horse in this race. But the last thing I want is stupid buffs aimed at fixing TvZ that blow up my matchup. I lost to mass queen Ultra yesterday lol, that shit is downright unkillable with any composition. Does not need to be stronger.
It's almost impossible if the Zerg micros well and you don't use Feedback. One full energy Templar can feedback 4 Queens, so a Warp Prism full of Templar can feedback 16 Queens. If you pull off the feedbacks your Immortals and Void Rays will clean up the Ultras no problem.
The only difference between Khaydarian Amulet and Infestor/BL is that Blizzard chose to ignore Infestor BL for a year while they worked on HotS. It would have easily been fixable, (hell, look at the infestor now) but they didn't want to address all the other gaping balance holes that the Infestor was filling for Zerg at the time.
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On August 20 2013 23:16 Khalimaroth wrote:I'm from the ones who think the issues in TvZ come from the random success of mines hits, very hard to control as a terran or as a zerg.I think the ultralisk buff is just a way to hide a design trouble by nice balance statistics It's like the general protoss design trouble. Maybe blizzard should ask to himself others questions than "balance issues". (sorry for my english)
Terrans can, and should, focus fire with widow mines.
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On August 20 2013 23:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 23:11 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 23:09 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:02 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:43 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:37 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:
[quote]
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T). I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it. As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general. So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful? NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU. I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out. It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights: +5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0(this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?) +20 seconds to Warp Gate research time Before this, 4 gate was the ONLY build in PvZ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.3Removal of Khaydarin Amulet If TvP ever got to 4+ bases on both sides, Protoss wins because warp-in storms were too powerful. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.0All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken. That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings? The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed... I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months. Great, buff, don't nerf, I get it. The game has stagnated around 4M timings, Blizzard SHOULD intervene with a balance change here. Hots has been out for 5 months and there have been some pretty big shifts in that time. MMMM maybe be really good, but that could change. There is nothing worse for the game than punishing players for getting good with a set of units by nerfing them. The best way to fix the issue is to give the other race a way to respond that is just as powerful. If they are going to nerf the widow mine, they should just increase it’s burrow time in creep until the drilling claws upgrade is obtained.
Who's talking about nerfs? I have never once suggested nerfing mines, I have even advocated against it.
I am talking about giving options (because, you know, options are a good thing) to the race that is behind in the MU rather than applying yet another band-aid fix and keeping this game on rails.
Too many balance changes coming out of Blizzard throughout the history of SC2 directly support the meta. How about buffing underutilized units and revolutionizing the whole MU to become more flexible?
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On August 20 2013 23:13 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 23:11 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 23:09 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:02 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:43 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:37 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:22 doggy wrote:
[quote]
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that? Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T). I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it. As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general. So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful? NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU. I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out. It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights: +5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0(this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?) +20 seconds to Warp Gate research time Before this, 4 gate was the ONLY build in PvZ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.3Removal of Khaydarin Amulet If TvP ever got to 4+ bases on both sides, Protoss wins because warp-in storms were too powerful. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.0All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken. That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings? The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed... I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months. Great, buff, don't nerf, I get it. The game has stagnated around 4M timings, Blizzard SHOULD intervene with a balance change here. Make Spire unlock hive. The 3/3 Terran bio timing window in TvZ is drastically reduced, and hardly anything else is seriously effected. Far simpler, and far less clumsy, than buffing Ultra hp.
Well minus that you allow for faster broodlord switches.
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Remove Swarm Hosts, add Lurkers.
Bam.
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On August 20 2013 23:21 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 23:13 awesomoecalypse wrote:On August 20 2013 23:11 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 23:09 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:02 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:43 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:37 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T). I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it. As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general. So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful? NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU. I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out. It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights: +5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0(this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?) +20 seconds to Warp Gate research time Before this, 4 gate was the ONLY build in PvZ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.3Removal of Khaydarin Amulet If TvP ever got to 4+ bases on both sides, Protoss wins because warp-in storms were too powerful. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.0All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken. That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings? The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed... I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months. Great, buff, don't nerf, I get it. The game has stagnated around 4M timings, Blizzard SHOULD intervene with a balance change here. Make Spire unlock hive. The 3/3 Terran bio timing window in TvZ is drastically reduced, and hardly anything else is seriously effected. Far simpler, and far less clumsy, than buffing Ultra hp. Well minus that you allow for faster broodlord switches.
Broodlord switches aren't exactly a major problem in TvZ now, and they're unlikely to become one with the merging of vehicle and air weapons.
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Terran Upgrade I agree with. Those upgrades are expensive. and lets face it you need the air support if you are going mech. Vikings are needed to deal with vipers/broodlords. The ultra change is just....why. Zerg doesn't need help right now.
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On August 20 2013 22:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:
The overseer and mech buffs are fine. I don't think they'll radically change anything, but they're tweaks in the right direction that I have no problem with.
However, I disagree with the Ultra buff. Not because I don't think there are any issues with ZvT lategame, but because I think this is a poor way to fix those issues. Buffing Ultras just feels so random. Their reasoning is basically "Zerg lategame is weak in one matchup, Ultras exist in the lategame, therefore buff Ultras", without any further thought put into what other effects it will have, or whether it will even address the issue at hand.
The primary issue with lategame ZvT is that since Zerg players have to get a Pit and a Hive (which they would otherwise have no need for) before they can even start 3/3, whereas Terran have no comparable requirement--even beyond the additional expense, it delays Zerg upgrades in the lategame by a huge margin. This creates a decent window where Terran bio has 3/3 upgrades but the Zerg hasn't even been able to start them yet.
The simplest fix would to make the Spire open up teching to Hive (that is, Z would need to get either a Pit or a Spire before they could build a Hive). This would reduce the time before 3/3 is open to Zerg, and therefore help minimize that 3/3 Terran bio timing window. Since Spires are more expensive than Infestation Pits and have a longer build time, this wouldn't really effect non-Muta oriented builds (because if you aren't going air, its cheaper and faster to just get the pit)---it is strictly a buff to one scenario, when Z has a muta heavy comp in the midgame and is trying to keep up on upgrades in the lategame, i.e. the exact issue at hand in TvZ. But in that situation, it would be helpful. A muta-oriented Zerg wouldn't have to drop 100/100 and wait 50 seconds for an Infestation Pit they don't otherwise need...and since the Overseer buff should make it easier to keep Overseers alive, the money Z saves on overseers and not needing a pit will open up Hive more quickly, reducing the time before Zerg can start grabbing the upgrades they need to keep up with Terran.
Unlike the Ultra buff, this would have minimal impact on other matchups, nor would it radically alter the metagame. It would simply help Zerg have more success playing their current style.
I realy like this idea having spire or infest pit give hive tech
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On August 20 2013 23:19 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 23:16 Khalimaroth wrote:I'm from the ones who think the issues in TvZ come from the random success of mines hits, very hard to control as a terran or as a zerg.I think the ultralisk buff is just a way to hide a design trouble by nice balance statistics It's like the general protoss design trouble. Maybe blizzard should ask to himself others questions than "balance issues". (sorry for my english) Terrans can, and should, focus fire with widow mines.
Yes but i didnt talk only about that. I'm talking about control in general, during a fight. Control on the mines from the terran, and control on the hits from the zergs. Even if you can focus fire with mine, or split your lings, its still too random in my point of view.
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On August 20 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:
Remove Swarm Hosts, add Lurkers.
Bam.
This, and i think armored units are the bane of both the Lurker and Siege tank (Immortal/Marauder/Collosi,..). What about toning those units down in the expansion... prolly stupid idea
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On August 20 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:
Remove Swarm Hosts, add Lurkers.
Bam.
I should just make a list of the stock suggestions that get trotted out literally every time balance is discussed, even though they've been discussed to death and there is a 100% certainty that they'll never happen:
Remove swarm hosts, add lurkers
Remove colossi, add reapers
Buff tanks
Remove forcefield and warp gate, buff gateway units
Any others I'm missing?
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On August 20 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:
Remove Swarm Hosts, add Lurkers.
Bam.
I'll tip my hat to that. Swarm Hosts are useless. Okay they are usable, but boring and really easy to counter. In a straight up fight they can beat a lot of things equal supply, but nobody will ever fight with you. In ZvZ, swarm host hydra is the ultimate composition.....except they'll just walk around you and kill all your bases by the time you kill 1, or kill you before you have enough swarm host. If you go swarm host in ZvP you're essentially saying 'let's play for an hour and if I defend everything really really well during that hour I'll win.'
Boring unit with almost no uses, which I feel was supposed to help Zerg hold up in the later midgame while they get hive. Now the problem remains, and the solution is an ultra buff, *sigh*
Remove swarm hosts, add lurkers
Remove colossi, add reapers
Buff tanks
Remove forcefield and warp gate, buff gateway units
all fantastic ideas except for the tank buff 
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On August 20 2013 23:27 massivez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote:
Remove Swarm Hosts, add Lurkers.
Bam. This, and i think armored units are the bane of both the Lurker and Siege tank (Immortal/Marauder/Collosi,..). What about toning those units down in the expansion... prolly stupid idea
There is a smart bllog post on lurkers vs swarmhost vs banelings with sc1 and sc2 examples.
Search for it in the feauture blog post section
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On August 20 2013 23:20 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 23:16 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:11 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 23:09 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 23:02 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:49 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:43 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 20 2013 22:37 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 22:32 Decendos wrote:On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that. but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T). I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it. As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general. So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful? NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU. I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out. It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights: +5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0(this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?) +20 seconds to Warp Gate research time Before this, 4 gate was the ONLY build in PvZ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.3Removal of Khaydarin Amulet If TvP ever got to 4+ bases on both sides, Protoss wins because warp-in storms were too powerful. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.0All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken. That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings? The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed... I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months. Great, buff, don't nerf, I get it. The game has stagnated around 4M timings, Blizzard SHOULD intervene with a balance change here. Hots has been out for 5 months and there have been some pretty big shifts in that time. MMMM maybe be really good, but that could change. There is nothing worse for the game than punishing players for getting good with a set of units by nerfing them. The best way to fix the issue is to give the other race a way to respond that is just as powerful. If they are going to nerf the widow mine, they should just increase it’s burrow time in creep until the drilling claws upgrade is obtained. Who's talking about nerfs? I have never once suggested nerfing mines, I have even advocated against it. I am talking about giving options (because, you know, options are a good thing) to the race that is behind in the MU rather than applying yet another band-aid fix and keeping this game on rails. Too many balance changes coming out of Blizzard throughout the history of SC2 directly support the meta. How about buffing underutilized units and revolutionizing the whole MU to become more flexible?
The problem is that SC2 players are stubborn and don’t like trying new things. I am all for more units and I will always say that underused units need to be buffed or tweeked. I think siege tanks need a buff, but not to damage. I think it would be cool if you could pick one up while sieged, like a thor. I think Utra’s needed a buff. I also think the oracle needs some love in the control department and the carrier needs some love in the “I take to fucking long to build” department. I think interceptors should be free, but have fewer Hp
But a lot of players just want the style they have been playing to be buffed or made better, rather than be forced to learn something new. You see it every patch, when something gets buffed and the first comment is “won’t help”.
Once again, I am all for subtle changes to fix issues. Making widow mines burrow slower on creep would be a good way to solve the problem of the “endless terran push” without totally fucking the unit.
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all fantastic ideas except for the tank buff
All ideas that have been discussed ad nauseum thousands of times, and apart from maaybe the tank buff (probably not), all things that are never, ever going to happen. Protoss is not getting a ground up redesign, and SC2 is not going to suddenly bring back a bunch of BW units. Focusing incessantly on those ideas is silly and counterproductive. It inevitably happens in the sort of posts that like to use meaningless buzzwords like "fundamental design problems" or babble on about defender's advantage or the supply cap.
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Ultras are preeeeety strong right now IMO. I'm scared of that but at least they didn't start the Viper with full energy. That was even scarier and just ridiculously imba.
Terran ship and weapons upgrades being combined doesn't really affect me a whole lot, because I never play mech when I play as T and I don't have a hard time with mech as P. But I think it'll encourage more mech play which I'm down with.
Overall, I'm liking the changes. The overseer's gonna be fast as all hell though 
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On August 20 2013 23:26 freerolll wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 22:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:
The overseer and mech buffs are fine. I don't think they'll radically change anything, but they're tweaks in the right direction that I have no problem with.
However, I disagree with the Ultra buff. Not because I don't think there are any issues with ZvT lategame, but because I think this is a poor way to fix those issues. Buffing Ultras just feels so random. Their reasoning is basically "Zerg lategame is weak in one matchup, Ultras exist in the lategame, therefore buff Ultras", without any further thought put into what other effects it will have, or whether it will even address the issue at hand.
The primary issue with lategame ZvT is that since Zerg players have to get a Pit and a Hive (which they would otherwise have no need for) before they can even start 3/3, whereas Terran have no comparable requirement--even beyond the additional expense, it delays Zerg upgrades in the lategame by a huge margin. This creates a decent window where Terran bio has 3/3 upgrades but the Zerg hasn't even been able to start them yet.
The simplest fix would to make the Spire open up teching to Hive (that is, Z would need to get either a Pit or a Spire before they could build a Hive). This would reduce the time before 3/3 is open to Zerg, and therefore help minimize that 3/3 Terran bio timing window. Since Spires are more expensive than Infestation Pits and have a longer build time, this wouldn't really effect non-Muta oriented builds (because if you aren't going air, its cheaper and faster to just get the pit)---it is strictly a buff to one scenario, when Z has a muta heavy comp in the midgame and is trying to keep up on upgrades in the lategame, i.e. the exact issue at hand in TvZ. But in that situation, it would be helpful. A muta-oriented Zerg wouldn't have to drop 100/100 and wait 50 seconds for an Infestation Pit they don't otherwise need...and since the Overseer buff should make it easier to keep Overseers alive, the money Z saves on overseers and not needing a pit will open up Hive more quickly, reducing the time before Zerg can start grabbing the upgrades they need to keep up with Terran.
Unlike the Ultra buff, this would have minimal impact on other matchups, nor would it radically alter the metagame. It would simply help Zerg have more success playing their current style. I realy like this idea having spire or infest pit give hive tech
Dear God are you high man? Lol.
It's hard enough to scout what composition Z is going for as P when they literally have one of every building... and only lings on the field... now either Spire or Infestation pit could mean fast hive? Or Swarm hosts? Or Muta? How the heck do you react?
I'd say if anything, make Zerg 3/3 not require Hive. Just keep it Lair Tech. The same 2/2 and 3/3 require only armory and twilight for the other races.
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EPT
