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On August 21 2013 04:12 p14c wrote:
Blizzard: We want to see more mech so we buff the 2 zerg units that hardcounter mech: viper and Ultras! LOL! Good job David Kim! How many shoots are required for a tank to kill a Ultra now? It's getting ridiculous. What sane person thinks mech can be viable vs blinding cloud+Ultras? And the Protoss just needs mass Immortals and it's an autowin...
Unsieged tanks are actually good against ultras, what are u talking bout ?
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On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:
Its funny, I used to be a whiner too.
For people who seem to be hopeless, why don't you just think about the situation for a little bit.
What's hard for Bio players? In high level PvT games, constant late game zealot warpins are extremely difficult to deal with because you have to stutter step on 2 Fronts. Which requires an ungodly level of APM.
Overlord speed buff: You will probably get it now, why not use it with overseers. You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.
Now, you have more than 2 minutes of breathing room to sneak a hive and ultra den up earlier. Survive for just a little bit longer, and get ventral sacs.
Then since you have OL speed already, drop overlords with ultras 1 or 2 at a time to camp terran production. Now terran has to multitask at 2 fronts if you attack. Mutalisk harass. 3 Fronts. Ling/Bling runby. 4 fronts. See how hard it gets now?
Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way.
eerm no you dont? contaminate is 30 sec and 125 energy. simply not worth morphing extra overseers for that purpose. just get hive and your own 3 3. obv your 1 overseer that is with your mutas can contaminate...problem is your mutas wont even be at your opponents base since you need to defend all game long...which btw wont change with small overseer and even smaller ultra buff (1 more immo shot, 3 (?) more rauder shots lol)
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On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:
You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.
This example makes it clear you have no idea about the matchup.
You need 10 contaminates to delay 3/3 by 150 seconds. Since an overseer would take over 4 minutes to build up a second contaminate, we assume each overseer contaminates once. That's 500 gas spent in advance on units that contribute 0 to any engagement, plus the gas of mutas you're using to bait (???) turrets (rather than inflict damage or defend drops).
So IF the terran for some reason decides not to build any more turrets near his ebay, you can spend about 2000 gas to buy you 2.5 minutes before t3. If you're on 3 bases, that's more than the gas income of 6 geysers over those 2.5 minutes.
When your biggest difficulty is having to sacrifice gas units to deal with mineral units, spending a large amount of gas to inflict no damage is pretty absurd.
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spire should allow hive as well as infestation pit. will allow easier transition for ling/bane/muta ZvT to get to 3-3. zerg has a hard enough time getting to 3-3, it should be made easier
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The Zerg buffs are anti 4M so maybe it forces Terran to transition out of it (earlier) or come up with other strategies.
- The overseer speed buff is anti widow mine.
- The ultra buff is to make the ultra transition easier.
The upgrade buff is just to buff mech, mostly in TvP.
That's about it I guess?
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what a i see is a tentative zerg buff and a "lets see what happens". I probably expect some mid game zerg buffs soon in another month.
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I disagree with almost everything they're proposing in this balancing patch...it seems like Blizzard is only looking at TvZ, but how is change to Z going to affect PvZ? I mean ya sure ultra buff is to a tier 3 late game unit, but the ultra counters almost everything except for immortals in the protoss arsenal... the extra 50 hp means a huge difference in PvZ if Zerg rushes ultra tech now... Looks like Protoss would just have to rely even more on void rays...
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This is wrong, where is the protoss mothership core upgrade? i want to see vortex again
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United States15275 Posts
On August 21 2013 04:49 Penev wrote:
The Zerg buffs are anti 4M so maybe it forces Terran to transition out of it (earlier) or come up with other strategies.
- The overseer speed buff is anti widow mine.
- The ultra buff is to make the ultra transition easier.
The upgrade buff is just to buff mech, mostly in TvP.
That's about it I guess?
The zerg changes don't deal with the issues of the terran push.
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Ya i think ultras are an amazing unit and most of zergs weaknesses lie in the delicate late game transition to ultras were their army is not ultra heavy enough to crush through entrenched terran positions off creep but also has enough ultras that the mutas have begun to phase out and zerg starts trading mobility for having a powerful army in direct engagements. honestly I think it would be better to give zerg slight buffs to other units or improve less used units like the hydra rather than to make an already amazing face crushing unit even more amazing and face crushing. maxed ultras are a truly terrifying thing its mostly the delicate transition to the that ideal ultra infestor composition that is hurting zerg. on the other hand im not sure if i could think of what kind of buff you would give zerg to deal with this without creating the same problem that the queen patch had were if you buff a races vulnerabilities you can make it impossible for other races to ever stop their ultimate god mode transition of death. maybe buffing the high end units is the only none game breaking thing they could think of.
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On August 21 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:
Its funny, I used to be a whiner too.
For people who seem to be hopeless, why don't you just think about the situation for a little bit.
What's hard for Bio players? In high level PvT games, constant late game zealot warpins are extremely difficult to deal with because you have to stutter step on 2 Fronts. Which requires an ungodly level of APM.
Overlord speed buff: You will probably get it now, why not use it with overseers. You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.
Now, you have more than 2 minutes of breathing room to sneak a hive and ultra den up earlier. Survive for just a little bit longer, and get ventral sacs.
Then since you have OL speed already, drop overlords with ultras 1 or 2 at a time to camp terran production. Now terran has to multitask at 2 fronts if you attack. Mutalisk harass. 3 Fronts. Ling/Bling runby. 4 fronts. See how hard it gets now?
Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way. eerm no you dont? contaminate is 30 sec and 125 energy. simply not worth morphing extra overseers for that purpose. just get hive and your own 3 3. obv your 1 overseer that is with your mutas can contaminate...problem is your mutas wont even be at your opponents base since you need to defend all game long...which btw wont change with small overseer and even smaller ultra buff (1 more immo shot, 3 (?) more rauder shots lol)
"you need to defend all game long"
Wasn´t it supposed to be the oposite.
Terran defending against hordes of zergs?
Maybe this is what is wrong with TvZ?
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I feel like Overseers should also get a weakened version of the Reaper's Combat Drugs (like 1.5-2 HP/sec when out of combat for 10 seconds).
If you want to buff Terran Mech vs Protoss, reduce Tank supply cost and maybe even raise the base damage. As it is now, Tanks do too little damage and cost too much supply versus Protoss. Or give them an ability to do extra shield damage instead of raising their damage. Like, before base damage is calculated, 20 shield damage is dealt. Then, Immortals tank 3 hits before taking the 50 HP damage from Tanks. Also, Tanks would basically be doing up to 70 damage to shielded Protoss units (30 to Immortals, 55 to Zealots). The first change that should be tried is reducing the supply cost.
I like the idea of buffing Vipers, cause they're a fun unit. But they also have issues outside of the energy needed to use their abilities. I know Blizzard is against reviving BW units, but Dark Swarm worked better than Blinding cloud. Maybe change Blinding Cloud so that units inside it have a 66% chance to miss? This makes Siege Tanks next to useless, instead of 100% useless, and doesn't auto suicide Marines into Banelings while still punishing Terrans who don't countermicro. Vipers aren't used in ZvT, and that's something I'd like to see changed.
Buffing Ultras seems to be a bad way to go around things. Ultras are pretty strong as it is. Yes, as a tier 3 unit, they are a bit lacking against Terran, but they are also made fairly quickly. Buffing them would snowball things too much and players might even go full Ultras without support units like Infestors. Yes, the 50 HP buff likely won't push the game over that far, but I'd rather see a support unit buffed or reworked (like the Viper)
Also, Protoss needs a buff to deal with Swarm Hosts. Otherwise, Protoss is fine. My suggestion is to add Shield Generators (building), that (at the cost of energy with cooldown) creates an exterior shield (separate from the normal shield) that absorbs damage and increases regular shield generation while the external shield is active (shield does not work on Shield Generator). The Shield Generator may only be built within 5 range of a Nexus, and the Generator's shield cast range is 6 units with AoE of 4. The shield lasts until broken or until the unit walks outside of 13 range of the Generator. Basically, the idea is that Protoss will be able to defend their base, instead of slowly dying at the edge of their base. However, once they leave the base, they need enough units to push through the Swarm Host army. Swarm Host supply cost may be changed to balance the exchange of resources that will happen in these battles. I think it'd be cool to see Protoss build up an army, then push out to meet the Swarm Host army, followed either by the Protoss retreating and regrouping, or the Zerg uprooting and retreating, throwing down Blinding Clouds (or something better) to cover their retreat. Swarm Host movement speed may also need to be buffed.
Also, buffing Baneling morph times was mentioned. I'm thoroughly against this unless it's at least a Hive tech upgrade (costing 50/50 or 100/100, a high cost may later be deemed necessary, but at the moment I feel like delaying the timing of such an upgrade is sufficient, since the morph time isn't an issue until Terran has full 3 base infrastructure). This also allows Zerg to "build" up their Hive tech slowly, instead of having Hive tech as a massive resource and tech dump. You could get the Baneling Upgrade+Vipers, then the 3/3, then Adrenal Glands+Ultralisks/Broodlords. Although, 3/3 is a fairly important upgrade to have, so maybe reduce Hive cost to compensate for this. Hive shouldn't be a "OMG! HE HAS HIVE! NOW HE'S GOING FOR MAX TECH!" It should be more like, he has Hive, now he can set himself up slowly for max tech. There's so much emphasis on getting Hive FOR Hive Tech. But Hive tech is so expensive, you really need to build yourself fairly large breathing room to safely get Hive tech. If we add in cheaper, and easier to obtain, Hive tech that assists in generating that breathing room to get to full Hive tech, the game may be more interesting. It'll be like, "He has Hive tech now! Let's see how he uses it to defend until he can get Ultras/Broodlords!"
That, or we create an upper Lair tier, which requires the Infestation Pit, or an Upgraded Infestation Pit (we can call it the Viper Nest; Hive would only require Infestation Pit?). We can dump all the intermediate upgrades here (like Adrenal Glands, Baneling Morph time, and MAYBE 3/3), and let Hive just be the tech that unlocks the lategame monsters Zerg has. The Viper Nest probably should only cost nothing but time (a small investment of resources can be added, maybe just Minerals).
As it is, the jump from Lair to Hive is huge (and in close enough games, entertaining to watch). The jump from Hatchery to Lair isn't nearly as big, so we could create intermediate steps from Lair to Hive to make it a smoother transition.
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On August 21 2013 05:03 Taipoka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:
Its funny, I used to be a whiner too.
For people who seem to be hopeless, why don't you just think about the situation for a little bit.
What's hard for Bio players? In high level PvT games, constant late game zealot warpins are extremely difficult to deal with because you have to stutter step on 2 Fronts. Which requires an ungodly level of APM.
Overlord speed buff: You will probably get it now, why not use it with overseers. You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.
Now, you have more than 2 minutes of breathing room to sneak a hive and ultra den up earlier. Survive for just a little bit longer, and get ventral sacs.
Then since you have OL speed already, drop overlords with ultras 1 or 2 at a time to camp terran production. Now terran has to multitask at 2 fronts if you attack. Mutalisk harass. 3 Fronts. Ling/Bling runby. 4 fronts. See how hard it gets now?
Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way. eerm no you dont? contaminate is 30 sec and 125 energy. simply not worth morphing extra overseers for that purpose. just get hive and your own 3 3. obv your 1 overseer that is with your mutas can contaminate...problem is your mutas wont even be at your opponents base since you need to defend all game long...which btw wont change with small overseer and even smaller ultra buff (1 more immo shot, 3 (?) more rauder shots lol) "you need to defend all game long" Wasn´t it supposed to be the oposite. Terran defending against hordes of zergs? Maybe this is what is wrong with TvZ?
Lots of people said the same thing in WoL when this relationship was established, but it took on the role of Zerg being a growing force that would overwhelm you in no time if left unchecked, so T had to do whatever he could to keep it down. I think it's equally 'zergy' in that respect. It would be improper for HotS to reverse this
The reason this relationship exists is that Terran has:
1) Far more difficult means of producing army
2) More cost+supply efficient army in a direct engagement
3) Cheaper + more effective + safer means of harassment
Modifying these would be a huge change to the fundamentals of the matchup; it will not be done.
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Ultra buff seems unnecessary. A change in the attack mechanic of the widow mine would've been better IMO.
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On August 20 2013 13:48 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing. What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one?
i think what they are tyring to say is that zerg tend to get pulled apart by 2 or three pronged aggression right as they are transitioning to the 3-3 ultra comp this usually causes them to die before hive tech can really get rolling and its how most zerg loose to terran, a big part of why this happens in blizzards eyes is that its just straight up to hard for zerg to micro against a bio mine comp on three fronts while injecting and keeping up creep spread. because of this they want to make this stage of the game less apm intensive by making ultras have more health so they take less babysitting.
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On August 21 2013 05:03 Taipoka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 04:26 Decendos wrote:On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote:
Its funny, I used to be a whiner too.
For people who seem to be hopeless, why don't you just think about the situation for a little bit.
What's hard for Bio players? In high level PvT games, constant late game zealot warpins are extremely difficult to deal with because you have to stutter step on 2 Fronts. Which requires an ungodly level of APM.
Overlord speed buff: You will probably get it now, why not use it with overseers. You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.
Now, you have more than 2 minutes of breathing room to sneak a hive and ultra den up earlier. Survive for just a little bit longer, and get ventral sacs.
Then since you have OL speed already, drop overlords with ultras 1 or 2 at a time to camp terran production. Now terran has to multitask at 2 fronts if you attack. Mutalisk harass. 3 Fronts. Ling/Bling runby. 4 fronts. See how hard it gets now?
Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way. eerm no you dont? contaminate is 30 sec and 125 energy. simply not worth morphing extra overseers for that purpose. just get hive and your own 3 3. obv your 1 overseer that is with your mutas can contaminate...problem is your mutas wont even be at your opponents base since you need to defend all game long...which btw wont change with small overseer and even smaller ultra buff (1 more immo shot, 3 (?) more rauder shots lol) "you need to defend all game long" Wasn´t it supposed to be the oposite. Terran defending against hordes of zergs? Maybe this is what is wrong with TvZ?
No, it's not. If the game were designed to be the opposite, but somehow balanced, it'd always end in a draw.
It would be the Terran playing tower defense off of 2-3 bases while the Zerg takes everything else on the map and trades like 120 supply for like 20 supply. But if the Terran wants to win, he has to move out. To make it balanced so Terran isn't a walking Tank, the Terran has to be strong when it's set up (like Siege Mode). The instant Terran moves out, Zerg swarms the army while it's weak and wins. The Terran will never do this, and therefore sets up camp forever. The result is Zerg either tries to swarm in, fails, and loses to the weak, unsieged Terran army, or he chooses not to push in, and we have a stalemate.
And Terran defending endless swarms of Zerg from the middle of the map, not likely to ever happen. Terran doesn't have that much strength to defend a location without reinforcements. And if they did, Zerg would just base race.
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On August 20 2013 13:36 Ouija wrote:
IMO all changes are unnecessary besides maybe the overseer speed buff. Combining air and mech attack upgrades does nothing to make mech stronger since mech units build out of a factory. Additionally, now terran can freely switch into 3/3 air after playing mech and turtling. The ultralisk health buff also feels a bit useless as I feel the unit is completely fine as is.
Response to timoi210 -- Maybe every single Zerg player should stop trying to play mass ling muta vs terran, teching up to hive is actually quite easy when you don't spend 1600+ gas on mutas and who know how much on banelings throughout the game. Widow mines and marines crush mutas and lings and when almost every terran plays bio mine style ling bane muta seems stupid to me. I don't like to criticize such high level players like jaedong but I felt like polt showed in the WCS America Finals how bad muta/ling/bane is against good bio mine players, and it also showed how stupid top level zergs are to do the same exact thing every single game. There are plenty of other strategies zergs can use vs T.
This isn't WOL buddy "Playing mech and turtling...":There are such things as Vipers and Swarm Hosts. My games TvZ mech rarely get above the 15-20 minute mark before it is obvious someone is blatantly ahead. Lending 3/3 in air to making a large difference is of little impact. Transition into BC versus Zerg is rare unless the map is split, in which case every race will likely have 3/3 at that point. Let me know a good 3/3 BC timing versus Zerg, OK?
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On August 21 2013 05:03 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 04:49 Penev wrote:
The Zerg buffs are anti 4M so maybe it forces Terran to transition out of it (earlier) or come up with other strategies.
- The overseer speed buff is anti widow mine.
- The ultra buff is to make the ultra transition easier.
The upgrade buff is just to buff mech, mostly in TvP.
That's about it I guess?
The zerg changes don't deal with the issues of the terran push.
Well, a little bit (and I mean little, I kinda agree with you); If you just managed to get the ultra's out but you had to invest too much gas into banelings and mutas (which basically is the problem) than maybe now you might just manage to stay alive more often. You gotta admit; It makes more sense than the viper buff! :D
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On August 21 2013 04:49 Penev wrote:
The Zerg buffs are anti 4M so maybe it forces Terran to transition out of it (earlier) or come up with other strategies.
- The overseer speed buff is anti widow mine.
- The ultra buff is to make the ultra transition easier.
The upgrade buff is just to buff mech, mostly in TvP.
That's about it I guess?
I will tell you about the other strat of the terran to deal with ultralisks. It is subtle and requires a lot of starsense.
Moar marauders.
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Zergs are perfectly fine if they can survive long enough to transition into Ultralisks safely. Ultralisks have been perfectly fricking fine since 3-5 Ultralisks wreck high Marine count 4M. The problem has always been that Zerg has no effective transition up to Ultralisks because Infestors are completely useless once the Terran dodges the Fungals, which they've gotten amazing at since it's the exact same skill set as dodging Banelings, except easier. Mutalisks can't hold up against 3-3 Marines (and Terran will get 3-3 Marines before you have a sufficient flock (24+) of Mutalisks out, which also mean you'll not have the gas to get Hive. And in addition, your Mutalisks have absolutely no utility in the game because unless the Terran takes an extremely poor engagement, the Mutalisks have to stay at home helping you defend the onslaught of 4M. So the advantage you're supposed to get with Mutalisks (map vision, harassment) is completely nullified because all you can do is defend defend defend with them. Not to mention Widow Mines automatically come into play and can absolutely wreck Mutalisk flocks even better than Thors could, so there's no saving grace there. Roach and Hydralisk compositions don't trade nearly cost effectively enough once you're transitioning to Hive to supplement your army with Vipers, because with Vipers you stand a chance at trading decently, but you'll never get there because a 160 supply 4M push will wreck your 190 supply Roach Hydra mix before you can get Vipers out.
wtf are you doing Blizzard. 4M isn't imbalanced. We absolutely don't give a shit about balance. It's just completely stupid that Zerg just stands there taking absolute abuse from Terran for 10 minutes and hope to just trade evenly for that entire time, with a single non-cost efficient trade losing the game, until they rush out Ultralisks. Meanwhile, Terran just rallies units across the map with absolutely no regard, because even if you counter attack and kill 20-30 SCVs, they can still apply basically the same amount of pressure because MULEs. It's ridiculous. I don't care if your statistics say the matchup is even. There's nothing interesting, entertaining, or "fair" about the way the matchup works.
The Viper energy change simply meant Zergs would try to rush Hive as soon as possible and counter-bust the Terran with a 200/200 army Terran can't shoot. You're not addressing the fricking midgame where Terran rallies across the map. Basically, "we know your midtier units suck and have no chance so just rush to Hive as soon as possible". Zero strategic depth. Zero back-and-forth exchanges.
Late-game Zerg is great. You can get there on a 4 base economy (5th will spread you way too thin to a Terran that knows how to drop). If we can get to Ultralisks we actually have the ability to push Terran back towards his base. Getting there though makes absolutely no sense.
Ugh. It's so annoying watching absolutely nothing change. Give something to Zerg that can actually be useful in trading against 4M involving some sort of strategic depth or skill to utilize. Because at this point it's literally just Zerg hoping to God they trade evenly instead of actually involving strategy...
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EPT
