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This is a heated issue, but please keep the debate civil.
Personal insult is not 'discussion' and will be moderated. -Page 17 |
On August 18 2013 07:38 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 07:10 Jaaaaasper wrote:On August 18 2013 06:08 Prog455 wrote:On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote:
I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. If a European government was to look in a private e-mail conversation it would be a violation of the European Convention on Human Rights article 8. And France at least has been proven to do so already. Those laws are ignored by everyone in the name of "fighting terrorism". But this is different, and has damaged Axiom and Take's brand. This is one of the worst business related scandals in esports ever, and the resulting effects may be far wider spread than the public will ever know. The fact that anti-terror laws has turned out to be a major loophole in regards to human rights does not change the fact that Europeans does indeed consider written communiction as something private. The point of my post was not to say that Genna did something illegal, it was merely an attempt to explain why Take reacted strongly to her way of doing business. And in regards to this being one of the worst business related scandals in the history of eSports. Well let me just say that i am happy to hear that we up until this point have all been one happy family. This "scandal" has been blown out of proportions because Genna was stupid enough to announce her departure from Axiom in the same thread as explaining what had happened between Axiom and Take, and because TB lost his temper in the TL thread. Sadly it turns out that Axioms way of being professional happens to induce more drama than it prevents. Honestly - this whole "scandal" is a storm in a teacup if i ever saw one.
The scandal is the leaking of private conversations, which will directly hurt takes connection with acer, who is one of the few big name sponsors still investing in a big name team and backing tournaments. That kind of break of trust can and will not be ignored by sponsors, and does far more damage long term that any one of tb's insert foot directly into mouth moments. If tournament organizers and sponsors can't trust that private communication stays private, then they will cut back on interaction with team organizers and their monetary involvement. Business' will not risk private information that may affect their business being leaked via esports, and neither will tournament sponsors. Its just bad for business.
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On August 18 2013 07:47 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 07:38 Prog455 wrote:On August 18 2013 07:10 Jaaaaasper wrote:On August 18 2013 06:08 Prog455 wrote:On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote:
I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. If a European government was to look in a private e-mail conversation it would be a violation of the European Convention on Human Rights article 8. And France at least has been proven to do so already. Those laws are ignored by everyone in the name of "fighting terrorism". But this is different, and has damaged Axiom and Take's brand. This is one of the worst business related scandals in esports ever, and the resulting effects may be far wider spread than the public will ever know. The fact that anti-terror laws has turned out to be a major loophole in regards to human rights does not change the fact that Europeans does indeed consider written communiction as something private. The point of my post was not to say that Genna did something illegal, it was merely an attempt to explain why Take reacted strongly to her way of doing business. And in regards to this being one of the worst business related scandals in the history of eSports. Well let me just say that i am happy to hear that we up until this point have all been one happy family. This "scandal" has been blown out of proportions because Genna was stupid enough to announce her departure from Axiom in the same thread as explaining what had happened between Axiom and Take, and because TB lost his temper in the TL thread. Sadly it turns out that Axioms way of being professional happens to induce more drama than it prevents. Honestly - this whole "scandal" is a storm in a teacup if i ever saw one. The scandal is the leaking of private conversations, which will directly hurt takes connection with acer, who is one of the few big name sponsors still investing in a big name team and backing tournaments. That kind of break of trust can and will not be ignored by sponsors, and does far more damage long term that any one of tb's insert foot directly into mouth moments. If tournament organizers and sponsors can't trust that private communication stays private, then they will cut back on interaction with team organizers and their monetary involvement. Business' will not risk private information that may affect their business being leaked via esports, and neither will tournament sponsors. Its just bad for business.
This is not about whether organizers and sponsors in general can trust their private conversations to stay private. This is about Axiom dropping the ball. This is a stand alone case where Axiom dropped the ball because they wanted to do things in a different way compared to other team owners, organizers etc. Right from the start when Genna and TB formed Axiom they announced that they were going to keep things public. This is not how people in general does business, but solely how TB and Genna decided to run their team.
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On August 18 2013 08:02 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 07:47 Jaaaaasper wrote:On August 18 2013 07:38 Prog455 wrote:On August 18 2013 07:10 Jaaaaasper wrote:On August 18 2013 06:08 Prog455 wrote:On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote:
I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. If a European government was to look in a private e-mail conversation it would be a violation of the European Convention on Human Rights article 8. And France at least has been proven to do so already. Those laws are ignored by everyone in the name of "fighting terrorism". But this is different, and has damaged Axiom and Take's brand. This is one of the worst business related scandals in esports ever, and the resulting effects may be far wider spread than the public will ever know. The fact that anti-terror laws has turned out to be a major loophole in regards to human rights does not change the fact that Europeans does indeed consider written communiction as something private. The point of my post was not to say that Genna did something illegal, it was merely an attempt to explain why Take reacted strongly to her way of doing business. And in regards to this being one of the worst business related scandals in the history of eSports. Well let me just say that i am happy to hear that we up until this point have all been one happy family. This "scandal" has been blown out of proportions because Genna was stupid enough to announce her departure from Axiom in the same thread as explaining what had happened between Axiom and Take, and because TB lost his temper in the TL thread. Sadly it turns out that Axioms way of being professional happens to induce more drama than it prevents. Honestly - this whole "scandal" is a storm in a teacup if i ever saw one. The scandal is the leaking of private conversations, which will directly hurt takes connection with acer, who is one of the few big name sponsors still investing in a big name team and backing tournaments. That kind of break of trust can and will not be ignored by sponsors, and does far more damage long term that any one of tb's insert foot directly into mouth moments. If tournament organizers and sponsors can't trust that private communication stays private, then they will cut back on interaction with team organizers and their monetary involvement. Business' will not risk private information that may affect their business being leaked via esports, and neither will tournament sponsors. Its just bad for business. This is not about whether organizers and sponsors in general can trust their private conversations to stay private. This is about Axiom dropping the ball. This is a stand alone case where Axiom dropped the ball because they wanted to do things in a different way compared to other team owners, organizers etc. Right from the start when Genna and TB formed Axiom they announced that they were going to keep things public. This is not how people in general does business, but solely how TB and Genna decided to run their team.
At the very least this is going negativity effect axiom with sponsors and tourney organizers, and the backlash might reach out to take and acer. This is the kind of scandal that kills teams with potential sponsors, and makes other sponsors wary of anything to do with all involved. Axiom may be down to just total biscuits you tube money when the fallout ends. And ever in keeping it open, that goes way to far. If this even starts to look like a trend people will drop anything to do with the bains like a hot potato. That is not how you run a business.
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Canada16217 Posts
On August 18 2013 07:22 Yoshinaka wrote:
sadly.. the decline this game is in, shes one of many to come
That has nothing to do with why she left.
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On August 18 2013 08:58 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 07:22 Yoshinaka wrote:
sadly.. the decline this game is in, shes one of many to come That has nothing to do with why she left.
Reality is tough for most people. They see what they want.
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Mo drama for y'all, seems like the sc2 lives and breathes for this shit. Ignore this petulant behavior and send a message to all these drama queens that y'all don't give a fuck.
Shit like this is embarrassing and should not be debated over like it matters.
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On August 18 2013 09:12 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
Mo drama for y'all, seems like the sc2 lives and breathes for this shit. Ignore this petulant behavior and send a message to all these drama queens that y'all don't give a fuck.
Shit like this is embarrassing and should not be debated over like it matters.
But this does matter. Axiom just screwed over take and acer, and doing so proboly cost themselves sponsors and may have damaged the whole scene. This isn't just about total biscut snapping at someone over twitter or team liquid, this is a matter of leaking private business conversations, which is not something to be taken lightly. This is one of the few examples of drama that actually matter. This one is going to have lasting implications for at least axiom, if not for take and acer as well.
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On August 18 2013 09:20 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 09:12 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
Mo drama for y'all, seems like the sc2 lives and breathes for this shit. Ignore this petulant behavior and send a message to all these drama queens that y'all don't give a fuck.
Shit like this is embarrassing and should not be debated over like it matters. But this does matter. Axiom just screwed over take and acer, and doing so proboly cost themselves sponsors and may have damaged the whole scene. This isn't just about total biscut snapping at someone over twitter or team liquid, this is a matter of leaking private business conversations, which is not something to be taken lightly. This is one of the few examples of drama that actually matter. This one is going to have lasting implications for at least axiom, if not for take and acer as well.
From reports, Acer is fine and Amiom dropping out does not concern them. I believe this was brought up previously in the thread. Its really not that big of a deal.
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Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that.
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On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that.
Yeah they will be done before July next year, they dont even have enough players for team tournaments and i dont see them getting any other strong players. Maybe some of the azubu guys
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On August 18 2013 09:20 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 09:12 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
Mo drama for y'all, seems like the sc2 lives and breathes for this shit. Ignore this petulant behavior and send a message to all these drama queens that y'all don't give a fuck.
Shit like this is embarrassing and should not be debated over like it matters. But this does matter. Axiom just screwed over take and acer, and doing so proboly cost themselves sponsors and may have damaged the whole scene. This isn't just about total biscut snapping at someone over twitter or team liquid, this is a matter of leaking private business conversations, which is not something to be taken lightly. This is one of the few examples of drama that actually matter. This one is going to have lasting implications for at least axiom, if not for take and acer as well.
Or none of us know what the consequences are, because we don't have enough information. Internet arguing is fun though so carry on everyone.
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On August 18 2013 10:35 skatblast wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. i dont see them getting any other strong players.
Take this guy's word for it everybody. He got a high score on his SATs.
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On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that.
If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end.
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On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end.
What are you even talking about ?
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On August 18 2013 10:54 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote:On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. What are you even talking about ?
Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital.
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On August 18 2013 11:08 AgentW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 10:54 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote:On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. What are you even talking about ? Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital.
Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ...
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On August 18 2013 11:12 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 11:08 AgentW wrote:On August 18 2013 10:54 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote:On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. What are you even talking about ? Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital. Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ...
I did not mean to be arguing that you were wrong. I meant to be expressing my certainty that you were wrong; I don't know that just my expression of such certainty ought to convince others.
I will give you odds on a six-month bet, my $600 against your $400, if you like. I know your original prediction was for a year, but you also said much sooner was likely, and so I offer odds.
(edit: this is not an argument either, this is an attempt to make money. I entirely understand if you are not as interested in this sort of thing as I am.)
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On August 18 2013 11:12 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 11:08 AgentW wrote:On August 18 2013 10:54 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote:On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. What are you even talking about ? Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital. Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ...
I wasn't aware a valid argument was required for baseless supposition.
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On August 18 2013 11:17 InvictusRage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 11:12 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:08 AgentW wrote:On August 18 2013 10:54 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote:On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. What are you even talking about ? Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital. Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ... I did not mean to be arguing that you were wrong. I meant to be expressing my certainty that you were wrong; I don't know that just my expression of such certainty ought to convince others. I will give you odds on a six-month bet, my $600 against your $400, if you like. I know your original prediction was for a year, but you also said much sooner was likely, and so I offer odds. (edit: this is not an argument either, this is an attempt to make money. I entirely understand if you are not as interested in this sort of thing as I am.)
Nah. I'm not much of a gambler. I guess it's also why I am able to see problems in Axiom's future. Business people, while generally willing to take risks, don't tend to be quite so willing to be so fast and loose with their investments as some in this eSports community, which brings us back on topic ...
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On August 18 2013 11:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 11:12 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:08 AgentW wrote:On August 18 2013 10:54 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote:On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. What are you even talking about ? Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital. Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ... I wasn't aware a valid argument was required for baseless supposition.
I'm not sure it's such a "baseless supposition" to predict an outcome based upon demonstrated lack of business sense of the two people in charge of Axiom.
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EPT
