EPTSource:
GLHF -- http://t.co/ymCygnp1IE
— Genna Bain (@GennaBain) August 16, 2013
Genna's blog: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=425693
Genna Bain leaves Axiom
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
This is a heated issue, but please keep the debate civil. Personal insult is not 'discussion' and will be moderated. -Page 17 | ||
TL.net ESPORTS
4 Posts
Source: Genna's blog: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=425693
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nqqvt3
Canada55 Posts
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GrimZeRo
United States113 Posts
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
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Laryleprakon
New Zealand9496 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On August 16 2013 12:54 nqqvt3 wrote: Sorry to see her go, what exactly does that mean for Axiom? Totalbiscuit will be taking over. | ||
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Clicker
United States1012 Posts
(( I've been out of the SC2 scene mix the past two weeks...was this foreseen at all? ;c | ||
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Erraa93
Australia891 Posts
That's horrible. Wow sorry to hear it... | ||
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suicideyear
Ivory Coast3016 Posts
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Erraa93
Australia891 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:01 Clicker wrote: (( I've been out of the SC2 scene mix the past two weeks...was this foreseen at all? ;cIn light on the recent atc issue that happened ( look it up, hard to explain) and the heat that generated. I guess maybe | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
His first act as manager is tweeting "Fuck Take," so he's off to a good start. :p | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44074 Posts
Hopefully Axiom still does as well as they've been doing (or even better!). | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:02 Daralii wrote: His first act as manager is tweeting "Fuck Take," so he's off to a good start. :p Not true! Totalbiscuit @Totalbiscuit 6m So eSports is plagued with incompetence, fragile egos, backroom bullshit, people out for themselves and more concerned with saving face Totalbiscuit @Totalbiscuit 6m I just want to make that abundantly clear for those who didn't know. Similar I'd imagine to most entertainment industries. | ||
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:03 lichter wrote: Whyyyyyyyyy =/ Read her blog http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=425693 | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
Well, i suppose when you make a royal PR fuckup in a Good luck in the future, no mini-biscuits please, the world is not ready  | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:05 LuckoftheIrish wrote: Not true! Totalbiscuit @Totalbiscuit Oh and Fuck Take by the way Okay, third act. | ||
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Laryleprakon
New Zealand9496 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:05 Dodgin wrote: Totalbiscuit vs Take LET'S GO I don't like Take's chances. | ||
AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
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Danger Boy
United States47 Posts
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HyperDesi
63 Posts
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slytown
Korea (South)1411 Posts
Wait, is this a different Bain? | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
Well, he also posted in her blog (and said fuck TaKe again). | ||
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Polygamy
Austria1114 Posts
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duckTemplar
United States153 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44074 Posts
He is really, really not handling this well. In the other thread, he openly states that Axiom will no longer be attending anything related to Take (which hurts his team more than anything else), and essentially every comment coming from him is unprofessional. Yeah, I get the whole brutal honesty thing, but I think a little tact is important too. + Show Spoiler + On August 16 2013 13:00 TotalBiscuit wrote: Fuck Dennis. If he wasn't so concerned about saving face rather than being honest with everybody about his mismanaged tournament then some of this might not have happened. When you say "I hope there are legal consequences for what you've done" all bets are off, I lose any respect I've had for you. I hope Take enjoyed the free casting and the numbers, I'll never deal with him and his organisation ever again. ~http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=425693¤tpage=2 | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: He is really, really not handling this well. In the other thread, he openly states that Axiom will no longer be attending anything related to Take (which hurts his team more than anything else), and essentially every comment coming from him is unprofessional. Yeah, I get the whole brutal honesty thing, but I think a little tact is important too. + Show Spoiler + On August 16 2013 13:00 TotalBiscuit wrote: Fuck Dennis. If he wasn't so concerned about saving face rather than being honest with everybody about his mismanaged tournament then some of this might not have happened. When you say "I hope there are legal consequences for what you've done" all bets are off, I lose any respect I've had for you. I hope Take enjoyed the free casting and the numbers, I'll never deal with him and his organisation ever again. ~http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=425693¤tpage=2 I don't know, does it? No ATC - if that ever happens again - and no HSC. All of his/her players are based in Korea, so it's not like they're missing out on regional tournaments or anything. WCS, GSTL and the various offline majors seem like more than enough for any team. Not having TotalBiscuit cast for TaKe's tourmanents seems like a bigger blow to me. | ||
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hangene92
Canada258 Posts
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Patjuh
Netherlands20 Posts
Of course I can only judge based on what I've read for the past couple of days, but I don't think Dennis 'Take' should threaten with exploring the legal possibilities of suing someone (especially not in an international affair). I do believe it's not smooth to publish any private conversations, but then again people should put things into perspective a bit more. Not only does any such threats (from Dennis) put the community unnecessarily on 'sharp' (in a negative way, lots of negativity will flow around for the next days), I actually believe he might not have such a strong case towards Mrs. Bain (I doubt he would speak for Acer by proclaiming such actions, and if he does then he really has no clue). If for any reason the contracts between contract-parties have non-disclosure clauses, obviously (legal) rules are broken (freedom of contract); however, it depends on who signed what contract whether someone is guilty of breaking such rules stated in the mutually agreed contract (a contract between Acer and Dennis 'Take' would have no legal force towards Mrs. Bain, therefore she needs to be party in a separate contract herself; it would obviously be the joke of the day if Take would threaten Mrs. Bain based on a contract where he's no legal party off). And even then, if eventually she would be to blame for something, one of the foremost reasons why e-sports related conflicts (almost) never get in front of a legal court is because the involved interests for the contracted parties don't weigh up against all the time, effort and costs any such scenario would take up. I hope this is in no way the beginning of the end of Axiom, nor the beginning of hell breaking loose within the community/industry... | ||
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ladysman09
237 Posts
Although TB has the manager title we all know who the real boss is behind the scenes. | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
"AxiomHate 2013 : The ATC Edition" and openly broadcast private emails in the first place? Even the so called "threats" is actually "[6:51:33 AM] Dennis.Gehlen: actually i hope that by law [6:51:40 AM] Dennis.Gehlen: this is something you can get punnished for?" Where Dennis says that he HOPES that this is something you can get punished for, which I wouldn't blame the guy for since releasing private emails (which is considered legal binding in some areas) can be construed as infringement on individual / corporate rights. Not to mention that was also a part of a private conversation that Dennis did not broadcast nor actually seek legal action (at least to what we know). From what I've seen she seems to be good with the team and ran it well, but I don't see how this hate on Dennis is justified. | ||
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DeathDyingDoomKiller
Canada91 Posts
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Nomzter
Sweden2802 Posts
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xtyxtbx
United States53 Posts
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:37 DeathDyingDoomKiller wrote: TOTAL BISCUIT!!!! oh wait, will this interfere with his YouTube D: I'm guessing he's just going to make like vlogs on it and drive up traffic to his youtubes, all press is good press. | ||
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P7GAB
Canada486 Posts
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ssxsilver
United States4409 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:39 xtyxtbx wrote: Never was a T.B. fan. I respect him for his hard work in the e-sports community, but sometimes he just lets trolls get the best of him and goes on a freak out. I seen him do it once or twice, so i'm not really confident with the direction Axiom is going. You mean once or twice... a thread? In any case, kinda sad to see her go given that she seems to be a really nice person. | ||
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Holytornados
United States1022 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:36 Caihead wrote: So wait, from what I understand, how was it professional for Genna to make a sensationalist blog post "AxiomHate 2013 : The ATC Edition" and openly broadcast private emails in the first place? Even the so called "threats" is actually "[6:51:33 AM] Dennis.Gehlen: actually i hope that by law [6:51:40 AM] Dennis.Gehlen: this is something you can get punnished for?" Where Dennis says that he HOPES that this is something you can get punished for, which I wouldn't blame the guy for since releasing private emails (which is considered legal tender in some areas) can be construed as infringement on individual / corporate rights. Not to mention that was also a part of a private conversation that Dennis did not broadcast nor actually seek legal action (at least to what we know). From what I've seen she seems to be good with the team and ran it well, but I don't see how this hate on Dennis is justified. Er, I don't think "legal tender" means what you think it means. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:44 CosmicSpiral wrote: Er, I don't think "legal tender" means what you think it means. oops, typed that wrong | ||
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00higgo
Australia119 Posts
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aDominionGhost
Canada1 Post
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
Much better. ^_^ | ||
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Blargh
United States2101 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:47 00higgo wrote: Assuming a Team should get their information on what funding they will be getting for participating in the offline portion of your event, that you invited them too, is unprofessional, The email "accidentally" not being sent is also unprofessional. Well, if you look at HSC, it really is about the least "professional" tournament... I actually see more people sitting on a couch than I do SC2 matches when watching Take.tv (not tournament specific). Though, I do like when players cast because it's significantly better than normal casting. | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1401 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/gennas-retirement | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
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Vaelone
Finland4400 Posts
It feels like only SC2 community could create so much drama just because one team can't attend a tournament due to not having the money to go there. There's no winners in any of this. | ||
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theking1
Romania658 Posts
Dennis : okay i see but lets be honest thier chances doing pretty okay at the finale are there if we cant find a deal at all it would be the worst solution right? the point is i dont have big budgets that i can pay from my own pocket 3-4-5 flights Genna : Worst case scenario, we forfeit and Millenium takes our slot. Dennis : but before a team is not coming i really wanna help and even willing to pay some of my money into it thats why i ask i just try to find options Genna : I'll have to talk to John about it to see if we have anything leftover from our sponsor pool for the month. Dennis : okay and i will talk to acer about it if they would cover another 1500+ i think i am willing to help to on top " "Totalbiscuit @Totalbiscuit 16 Aug Oh and Fuck Take by the way" Take offers to help them with money and this is what he gets.really do not know why the genna-tb couple feels they ar emore entitled than anyone else in esports. | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1401 Posts
On August 16 2013 14:04 theking1 wrote: " Dennis : okay i see but lets be honest thier chances doing pretty okay at the finale are there if we cant find a deal at all it would be the worst solution right? the point is i dont have big budgets that i can pay from my own pocket 3-4-5 flights Genna : Worst case scenario, we forfeit and Millenium takes our slot. Dennis : but before a team is not coming i really wanna help and even willing to pay some of my money into it thats why i ask i just try to find options Genna : I'll have to talk to John about it to see if we have anything leftover from our sponsor pool for the month. Dennis : okay and i will talk to acer about it if they would cover another 1500+ i think i am willing to help to on top " "Totalbiscuit @Totalbiscuit 16 Aug Oh and Fuck Take by the way" Take offers to help them with money and this is what he gets.really do not know why the genna-tb couple feels they ar emore entitled than anyone else in esports. Take threatened legal actions against her. That's what prompted the fuck Take not the tournament. | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1401 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On August 16 2013 14:04 theking1 wrote: " Dennis : okay i see but lets be honest thier chances doing pretty okay at the finale are there if we cant find a deal at all it would be the worst solution right? the point is i dont have big budgets that i can pay from my own pocket 3-4-5 flights Genna : Worst case scenario, we forfeit and Millenium takes our slot. Dennis : but before a team is not coming i really wanna help and even willing to pay some of my money into it thats why i ask i just try to find options Genna : I'll have to talk to John about it to see if we have anything leftover from our sponsor pool for the month. Dennis : okay and i will talk to acer about it if they would cover another 1500+ i think i am willing to help to on top " "Totalbiscuit @Totalbiscuit 16 Aug Oh and Fuck Take by the way" Take offers to help them with money and this is what he gets.really do not know why the genna-tb couple feels they ar emore entitled than anyone else in esports. Dude quit posting all you're doing is ignoring logic and shit posting Genna & TB. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On August 16 2013 14:05 TheButtonmen wrote: Either way there are no winners here, only losers. meh i feel like the drama-lovers which seems to be a big part of the vocal community are the winners, they got their weekly dish... | ||
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Entirety
1423 Posts
It should be obvious from the start that paid flights are necessary if teams even want to participate... | ||
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theking1
Romania658 Posts
On August 16 2013 14:04 TheButtonmen wrote: Take threatened legal actions against her. That's what prompted the fuck Take not the tournament. there a lot of things sayd on skype.TAKE didn't take any action.he might have well said that when he was upset.He never would have taken action.Like I said.Genna and totalbiscuti are way to entitled for their own good.The man tried to help them out and they publish the private conversation.period. @novermberormst why?because you have another oppinion than mine?or because there has long been evidence of this happening?Take has organized 7 hsc,some of the biggest and nicest tournaments this community has seen and because he made a threat on skype after without actually doing anything he gets bad pr without defending himself. ================================================= Hey Guys, we will provide you with some more information very soon We also had alot of stuff to do with the cebit BUT! I saw some question i would love to answer and i think you might like them!! We cover 1500 Dollar travelexpenses to support the teams Plus! Hotels for the teams so that they don t have to pay all the costs!!! I hope this shows that we want to help the teams and we know its expensive to send 4-5 players! Beside that this will be an onlineleague with the top 4 qualifying for the offline finale which is 2 days (Saturday/Sunday) at my place!! More information will come!! Stay tuned and awesome first feedback <333 i am an old wc3 player and played several wc3l saisons and i was aiming for this teamleague for along time and i am happy that acer and also intel is supporting me with that <3 but also don t forget about roccat and needforseat who support the whole thing too! Times for the qualifiers will be also announced offiicially very soon but we have to wait for an official go but it will be soon! All teams be prepared! //Dennis ================================================================ some of us saw the shitstorm happening ever since tb starting saying on twitter how he wants to move form sc2 casting and then throwing the 100k$ in our face like he was the only teamowner investing money into esports. | ||
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justiceknight
Singapore5741 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Brett
Australia3820 Posts
On August 16 2013 14:08 justiceknight wrote: Genna Bain and John Bain. Are they blood related? lol... Drama, drama, drama. I'm not sure why I'm surprised really. They're all in the entertainment business, and drama seems to be very popular in that respect! | ||
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Hrrrrm
United States2081 Posts
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KuKri
Germany168 Posts
Why is Take to be blamed? I must've missed out on something... | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:58 NovemberstOrm wrote: TB's thought's in audio form. https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/gennas-retirement I just listened to this... holy crap clinical depression? I feel for Genna even more right now. You don't need to "be on their side" to feel for her when you hear about everything they've been going to. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
Way to much drama about this situation | ||
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
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tiaz
Sweden231 Posts
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PresenceSc2
Australia4032 Posts
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PresenceSc2
Australia4032 Posts
On August 16 2013 14:30 Havik_ wrote: Total Biscuit is still involved, the team isn't dead yet as far as I can tell, what's the big deal? Maybe she just doesn't want to deal with all the nonsense of running the team? But why did it have to turn into a drama like this @_@ | ||
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On August 16 2013 14:36 Za7oX wrote: But why did it have to turn into a drama like this @_@ Everyone seemed quick to react to what happened. | ||
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beesinyoface
2450 Posts
On August 16 2013 14:36 Za7oX wrote: But why did it have to turn into a drama like this @_@ Because it's related to SC2, what else did you expect? | ||
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
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thirtyapm
521 Posts
cmon genna, stay and help the team out. regardless of whether this is a mistake, learn and grow. you were doing great, keep at it. | ||
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DeepS
Romania1 Post
I will make a small side note, and pretty much stop supporting TaKe in any way I can. Instead of cursing at him, and just creating so much drama and hostility and negativity within the scene. Just cut all support away from Take. it's as simple as that. | ||
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Zenbrez
Canada5973 Posts
On August 16 2013 14:36 Za7oX wrote: But why did it have to turn into a drama like this @_@ Ask Take. how does leaving help??? How does not having to deal with a massive amount of responsibility not going to help? I'm not going to pretend I know half of what goes into it, but neither do you. But I do know it's a lot can be quite draining. | ||
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BlackPanther
United States872 Posts
Best of luck to Genna and I hope she gets better. | ||
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KuKri
Germany168 Posts
On August 16 2013 14:49 Zenbrez wrote: Ask Take. How does not having to deal with a massive amount of responsibility not going to help? I'm not going to pretend I know half of what goes into it, but neither do you. But I do know it's a lot can be quite draining. I don't get it... I only see TB and Genna make blogs and audio records about how bad of a person Take is, revealing parts of what was supposed to be private communication. Why do you hold Take responsible for turning this into a drama? He didn't make anything about this public, did he? Again, what did I miss? | ||
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RaiKageRyu
Canada4773 Posts
This felt like I got hit by a brick out of nowhere. | ||
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benjiman
United Kingdom3 Posts
That means that the majority of the problems between the two parties, in our view at least - and it is entirely possible there was more to it that we don't know - came from the comments made in Genna's later blog. Now, Take certainly has a reason to be annoyed. I'm sure the conversation was made in the expectation that it be private between them, and I cant help personally wondering if the comments made there were extremely heat of the moment, that perhaps the implication that Take hopes Genna receives legal action against her was not exactly what he had in mind in making the comments he did. While he certainly would be angry, he cant really have had THAT much antagonism towards Genna just from a relatively neutral conversation being exposed. Ultimately, and unfortunately, the damage has been done, regardless of the intention. Genna has, as TB tells us, been dealing with other problems, and this was the final straw. TB may have teething issues in dealing with what is simply people serving their respective companies rather than the people they are dealing with, but I am fairly sure that an unusual method of handling problems wont stop him from getting what he needs to get done, done. It just seems that he will need help if he intends to continue with his other work too. Hope he finds that help. Id be up for it but I doubt I could help out here in the lovely UK. ^^ As an aside, if nothing else, this will give Genna time to coalesce and handle any continue problems she has. Heres hoping for the best, for the both of you. | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
On August 16 2013 15:00 KuKri wrote: I don't get it... I only see TB and Genna make blogs and audio records about how bad of a person Take is, revealing parts of what was supposed to be private communication. Why do you hold Take responsible for turning this into a drama? He didn't make anything about this public, did he? Again, what did I miss? Read the posts. Until you do don't talk. | ||
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cutler
Germany609 Posts
Good luck. | ||
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GwSC
United States1997 Posts
On August 16 2013 15:10 cutler wrote: Throwing such blog posts, casts, tweets etc at Take is very disrespectful. Always thought that TB has good intentions...well...my fault. In terms of building something up...he should take a lesson. Take a lesson in building something up? You do realize who you're talking about right? The guy who built a hugely successful youtube channel and founded Axiom? | ||
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cutler
Germany609 Posts
On August 16 2013 15:21 GwSC wrote: Take a lesson in building something up? You do realize who you're talking about right? The guy who built a hugely successful youtube channel and founded Axiom? HSC...Acer Team Leauge...Acer Deal...big Community Web Site...Need for Seat...hmmm? i terms of building something up from nothing...i think Take is one of the most accomplished persons. Cant believe how much work he puts into this...and still is casting, doing interviews and actually plays HOTS in Masters. | ||
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GwSC
United States1997 Posts
On August 16 2013 15:22 cutler wrote: HSC...Acer Team Leauge...Acer Deal...big Community Web Site...Need for Seat...hmmm? I'm not going to bother responing with a list of things TB is involved with and has built because while I promise it is just as long, it is pointless. My point is that he doesn't need any lessons in building anything. | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
On August 16 2013 15:22 cutler wrote: HSC...Acer Team Leauge...Acer Deal...big Community Web Site...Need for Seat...hmmm? i terms of building something up from nothing...i think Take is one of the most accomplished persons. Cant believe how much work he puts into this...and still is casting, doing interviews and actually plays HOTS in Masters. SHOUTcraft, team founder and sponsor, partnered with Acer in GSTL, arguably the most successful general-gaming personality today, YouTube channel with more than a million subscribers, casts a million events - including ATC. So yeah. I mean, it's not like you're making sense. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On August 16 2013 15:28 LuckoftheIrish wrote: SHOUTcraft, team founder and sponsor, partnered with Acer in GSTL, arguably the most successful general-gaming personality today, YouTube channel with more than a million subscribers, casts a million events - including ATC. So yeah. I mean, it's not like you're making sense. It's not an epeen popularity contest, keep this crap out of discussions both of you, please. What's relevant is what's happening now. | ||
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Lithian
Finland38 Posts
Due to misunderstanding, where Genna was not included in the mass email which contained information, Axiom wasn't informed about traveling expenses and how they were supposed to be handled. They did receive the details, but it was on way too short notice for them to collect funds neccessary. TakeTV did try to correct this but there was only so much they can do financially, considering that they have to also host the event and pay part of the travel and living expenses for the other teams aswell. Therefore Axiom decided not to attend the event. Genna makes a blogpost explaining their reason for pulling back and uses private chat logs and emails to provide some facts and to clear up some misunderstandings. Take doesn't like private logs being posted like that and messages Genna about that and she goes and posts these messages aswell for the public eye to see. And now to my opinion. TakeTV made a mistake which caused Axiom to be unable to participate in offline finals of ATC. They attempted to correct their mistake was it wasn't enough and and it was too late to help Axiom. While making the blogpost, Genna should have asked Take first if it was ok to post those private logs on the internet. While I'm pretty sure there's nothing preventing her from doing that, it would have been an act of good manner to ask Take's opinion first if it was ok to post those logs. Well, this was for sure really roundabout reply, but just wanted to sum up the whole situation as we know it and give some of my thoughts on it. | ||
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Caryc
Germany330 Posts
on a side note, writing "fuck take" 20 times on the internet is about what i expect nowerdays from tb. edit : also - while takes "threat" might not be very tactful,how can you not understand that he is upset? his sponsor money is on the line,which he is living from | ||
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Gonzo103
Germany220 Posts
This is for sure not good for anyone involved. I like both party's and will not stop to support both of them. Edit: Damn Typos. Note to myself: Never write on Smartphone while walking | ||
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Creepseep
Germany9 Posts
On August 16 2013 15:28 LuckoftheIrish wrote: SHOUTcraft, team founder and sponsor, partnered with Acer in GSTL, arguably the most successful general-gaming personality today, YouTube channel with more than a million subscribers, casts a million events - including ATC. So yeah. I mean, it's not like you're making sense. Guys, wtf is this? They're both great entrepreneurs and important persons for Starcraft 2 ... stop that stupid comparision. I like TB but I think he goes too far with this one. Genna published some critical conversations in her blog; like Acer not giving out more money for travel expenses. Not for TL as well it seems. And I think this really CAN be bad for the next ATC season. Just imagine Acer lost trust in TaKe's management and pulls out of ATC, which could totally be happening ... And all that just because Genna wants to be transparent with her management. Sadly this just does not always work out. TaKe actually did not say he WILL legally pursue the action, but I can understand him saying he hopes he has a legal basis to forbid releasing internal conversations. Just in case u know ... | ||
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elijah.snow
8 Posts
On August 16 2013 15:06 LuckoftheIrish wrote: Read the posts. Until you do don't talk. Done. I dont like Take but I also cant see how he is responsible for this drama. Blaming others for mistakes is a very bad habit. | ||
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DrBeansy
England85 Posts
i certainly dont know the whole story, but his reaction seems unproffessional. its dissapointing to hear. i think hes going to start to lose alot of fans if he continues as for the above posts of "genna is under alot of stress", yes, she probably is. i dont think this warrants her actions however (again i dont know the whole story). as a doctor working with people who are also clinically depressed, shes not the only one.... its very common and is often a result of huge traumas. i just get a little pissed off when people use 'depression' or 'stressed out' as reasons for actions. im in no way attacking Genna here, just the people justifying actions with 'shes stressed out' | ||
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Entirety
1423 Posts
On August 16 2013 15:42 Lithian wrote: So in short, Due to misunderstanding, where Genna was not included in the mass email which contained information, Axiom wasn't informed about traveling expenses and how they were supposed to be handled. They did receive the details, but it was on way too short notice for them to collect funds neccessary. TakeTV did try to correct this but there was only so much they can do financially, considering that they have to also host the event and pay part of the travel and living expenses for the other teams aswell. Therefore Axiom decided not to attend the event. Genna makes a blogpost explaining their reason for pulling back and uses private chat logs and emails to provide some facts and to clear up some misunderstandings. Take doesn't like private logs being posted like that and messages Genna about that and she goes and posts these messages aswell for the public eye to see. And now to my opinion. TakeTV made a mistake which caused Axiom to be unable to participate in offline finals of ATC. They attempted to correct their mistake was it wasn't enough and and it was too late to help Axiom. While making the blogpost, Genna should have asked Take first if it was ok to post those private logs on the internet. While I'm pretty sure there's nothing preventing her from doing that, it would have been an act of good manner to ask Take's opinion first if it was ok to post those logs. Well, this was for sure really roundabout reply, but just wanted to sum up the whole situation as we know it and give some of my thoughts on it. I agree... it truly is unfortunate that Genna felt the need to retire, and I definitely empathize with her depression problems. However, blaming Take (especially comments like "fuck Take") is not the correct answer! I mean, was Take even aware of Genna's depression? It's not like he was trying to give her stress... Take was probably stressed too. Managing events is not an easy task, and when one of your top 4 teams suddenly cannot attend, I bet he was thrown in a hectic situation. When he saw Genna post private conversations (which he interpreted as an attempt to blame Take for the situation), Take understandably reacted with anger. Take talked about legal action, but did he actually take legal action? No, and it would be surprising if he does. I can definitely empathize with both parties here, and we really shouldn't try to point the blame finger. Just because TotalBiscuit said "fuck Take" does not mean we should hate Take... and it also does not mean we should think of TotalBiscuit as an immature idiot. | ||
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
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Kommatiazo
United States579 Posts
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limbonic
70 Posts
it is, in fact, not legitmate (neither by moral nor juridical standards) to just openly publish private logs and e-mails. considering the unsatisfactory outcome, by publishing private information one has to anticipate at least some sort of backlash (why not simply ask whether it is fine to release them?) - quite likely an emotionally driven one. it's not for me to say whether take actually considered taking legal measures at any point in time (which would be going over the top, imo) but my guess would be that he was genuinely upset about the post. in the end the whole thing comes down to just one point: can one expect traveling expenses to be paid or not. for me, an invitation does not directly imply ANYTHING whatsoever (this goes for pretty much any field outside of e-sports). and even if paid flights were some kind of unwritten law, why would one not simply ask for clarification at any point down the road (better safe than sorry)? given traveling expenses obviously are a supercritical part in planning, why not approach that issue without making any assumptions, timely sorting out any misconceptions there might be? bottom line: from the logs, neither ATC nor TakeTV deserve any hate (posts like "fuck you dennis" are totally inappropriate). i do not see any ill will in the doing of anybody during the planning. the whole leaving axiom part should not be all so firmly tied to JUST that one (singular) incident. the logs should be taken down. things can get super-stressful, that's what naturally comes with working with other people. mostly, it is a pain for all parties involved - i feel like that particular insight has not really been taken into consideration all that much. edit: "protect the family because that's what a regular person does" - well yes, that's what you would expect, but sure instinct was called for. de-escalation would have been the key - for an outside person, objectively speaking, the sole reason for ANYBODY to be legitimately upset (note: it is of course perfectly reasonable to be unhappy about how the planning went) about was the public posting of private logs. the whole legal measures thing should have been discussed in private - that's what reasonable persons do... edit2: still, all the best to genna though! | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1401 Posts
On August 16 2013 15:00 KuKri wrote: I don't get it... I only see TB and Genna make blogs and audio records about how bad of a person Take is, revealing parts of what was supposed to be private communication. Why do you hold Take responsible for turning this into a drama? He didn't make anything about this public, did he? Again, what did I miss? Him threatening legal action. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
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Railgan
Switzerland1507 Posts
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Entirety
1423 Posts
On August 16 2013 16:09 Enema wrote: I think Take is doing a good job. I don't think he did anything wrong. People should not criticise Take but Genna for the way she handeld things No, we shouldn't criticize anyone... she handled everything to the best of her ability, she was damn good. | ||
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JP Dayne
538 Posts
It's always sad to see people with a lot of power STILL trying to save face with demagogy. | ||
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Entirety
1423 Posts
On August 16 2013 16:13 JP Dayne wrote: It's always nice to see people with some sort of power on the scecne having enough of BS. It's always sad to see people with a lot of power STILL trying to save face with demagogy. Isn't TotalBiscuit the one behaving more like a demagogue considering he essentially released an appeal designed to make us sympathize with him? | ||
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Yip12343
120 Posts
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moshonkel
Germany4 Posts
On a sidenote i absolutely dont understand why he keeps mentioning how sc2 is his passion and how much he is sacrificing for it, everybody knows that this isnt pure charity since he is building his brand/image/future returns. And even if it is pure charity how does it help to constantly mention it? | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
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Voyage
Germany71 Posts
On August 16 2013 16:16 Entirety wrote: Isn't TotalBiscuit the one behaving more like a demagogue considering he essentially released an appeal designed to make us sympathize with him? I think that's what he's implying. | ||
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Fleshcut
Germany592 Posts
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Latty
Germany567 Posts
There clearly have been mistakes made by both sides, but to shit on TakeTV/Acer now is a bad move. As a Team its your responsibility to be aware of Information you need in order to participate. And running 2 companys and beeing a mother is gennas problem not anyone elses problem. So why mention that all the time... And posting all these conversations is bullshit either, what does this proof? This only proofs that TakeTV tried to fix it, but still Axiom failed to notice that they had no information at all about the travel expenses. i can totally understand Take to be super mad after all these private conversations was been posted. Imagine you talk to buiseness partners and after a deal havent worked out you read your personal messages with the company in the newspaper a day later ... that is totally unprofessional crap and is nowhere else seen other then esports ... its a shame! Take knows how to run a buiseness, TB and Genna obv. dont. | ||
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Esoterikk
Canada1256 Posts
On August 16 2013 16:34 Latty wrote: See, when doing buiseness you have to be aware of stuff. And honestly participating in a team league, knowing there will be an offline final in germany and having no information about travel costs should trigger to ask about it. Not just assume that it will be like this or like that. There clearly have been mistakes made by both sides, but to shit on TakeTV/Acer now is a bad move. As a Team its your responsibility to be aware of Information you need in order to participate. And running 2 companys and beeing a mother is gennas problem not anyone elses problem. So why mention that all the time... And posting all these conversations is bullshit either, what does this proof? This only proofs that TakeTV tried to fix it, but still Axiom failed to notice that they had no information at all about the travel expenses. i can totally understand Take to be super mad after all these private conversations was been posted. Imagine you talk to buiseness partners and after a deal havent worked out you read your personal messages with the company in the newspaper a day later ... that is totally unprofessional crap and is nowhere else seen other then esports ... its a shame! Take knows how to run a buiseness, TB and Genna obv. dont. I don't understand why you wouldn't ask at the start of the Team League what the arrangements were :S | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
Thats the root of this situation, Genna assuming things unfortunately | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:01 suicideyear wrote: i don't think axiom will be around in its current from 1 year from now Neither will you. Panta rei. | ||
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Entirety
1423 Posts
On August 16 2013 16:38 Talack wrote: sc2 scene is too volatile anyways, more people should get out while they can before they're too invested in it. People getting out causes the scene to be volatile... that's begging the question right there! | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
But please, amidst all that, tone down the hate towards Take. I mean, try looking at it like this: He organizes not only this tournament but one of the most succesfull non-major tournaments. He offers to do everything to help get Axiom to the event, even offering to pay some out of his own pocket. Then a private skype conversation is published without his consent (which is an absolute no-go not only in business but anywhere) - he then is afraid of losing the major sponsor of the tournament due to this reveal. It was obviously not done with malintent by Genna, but it must have come off as a big "f*ck you" to Take after having tried to be helpful. So, calm down, keep private communications private, don't threaten with legal action easily, try to be a cheerful, positive community and don't try to acitvely scare away sponsors. Peace. | ||
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Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
Honestly i like TB old-football-style casting, but i do not like his temper at all, Take on the other hand might not be the most professional but i do not doubt that he means well, maybe a hinted lawsuit is for americans way more offending than for germans, here it is more or less a normal procedure to implicate that we could involve lawyers if we get uncertain how a money related issue pans out. i guess the best part is that i as a "costumer" do not have to choose between TB and Take events, so i can happily enjoy both. and maybe when people have cooled off, they will realize how dumb this all is and there is only losers and no winners from this. | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51462 Posts
Still very silly to just pull the plug on your career when people start questioning it, i do think that was a silly way to go. Oh well im sure TB won't stand no messing  Us English are ruthless when we need to be :D | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
On August 16 2013 16:34 Latty wrote: See, when doing buiseness you have to be aware of stuff. And honestly participating in a team league, knowing there will be an offline final in germany and having no information about travel costs should trigger to ask about it. Not just assume that it will be like this or like that. There clearly have been mistakes made by both sides, but to shit on TakeTV/Acer now is a bad move. As a Team its your responsibility to be aware of Information you need in order to participate. And running 2 companys and beeing a mother is gennas problem not anyone elses problem. So why mention that all the time... And posting all these conversations is bullshit either, what does this proof? This only proofs that TakeTV tried to fix it, but still Axiom failed to notice that they had no information at all about the travel expenses. They DIDN'T know there was going to be an offline final until they had already registered, and because of that Axiom assumed travel would be covered which it wasn't, and they posted proof of that, and then apparently Take shit on GB for posting her reasoning so that her team didn't get hated on. Thus, this. | ||
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ETisME
12345 Posts
I feel like TB is just not that type of person to handle a team though | ||
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moshonkel
Germany4 Posts
"I have dropped 100k on sc2 as pure charity and still have to deal with haters like everyone else." Those statements are just hard to overread. Why are they writing this? For me it seems pretty obvious that tb/genna are pretty emotionally charged, and seem to not acting very rationally right now. Making a statement about your wife depression and how strong she is, is just solidifying this. I hope tb/genna realize they are likely going to make mistakes in that situation, so i would recommend to not rally up your followers to pitchfork someone when you are so vulnerable to making irrational decisions. | ||
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styLesdavis
Germany833 Posts
who is the more accomplished person for the esports community? Faults like this can happen. Nobody has to overreact that much. Keep up the good work all and make things happen in the future like you did in the past. | ||
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
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lessQQmorePEWPEW
Jamaica921 Posts
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Hollick
Canada5 Posts
To me, this sounds like Genna really has had too much on her plate as a person to manage a team in the first place. It is clearly noted that she is a "CEO of 2 businesses and a mother", while TB also states in his soundcloud that she has been diagnosed with clinical depression. I understand mental health being diagnosed with general anxiety disorder earlier this year with a prescription which has helped majorly to get rid of the disorder. However, the constant throwing around that "I am a mother and a CEO of 2 businesses is an excuse bottom line. Do you think successful CEO's and business personalities go around telling other CEO's their personal info on why they were unable to get something done, and or follow up? What she does day to day is clearly a busy schedule, but if you can't handle it, then Genna you've made the right move to get out of eSports. We're finding out more and more that it really is not nearly financially stable as we think or will be any time soon. I think the decision you made in not sending Axiom to ATC was the right one, and as you stated to Take, you can't risk financial instability for the sake of getting your team there, especially when top prize didn't even cover the cost to get there, all-in, in the first place. So kudos for that. The second part of this whole situation I do understand is the response from Take, seeing his private emails and Skype conversations aired out to the entire community. This is not something that the community should be seeing. It's just asking for a sh** storm. Instead, it simply could have been handled by a blog post without the private conversation/email posts, or a tweet saying "Axiom will not be able to attend ATC due to unfortunate financial circumstances, we apologize to our fans." Why the posts of private information that was expected to remain so? Take took offense to this because people like me look at this and say why are you trying to discredit ATC and ATC only for which really is just as much a mistake of yours as is theirs. Sure, they didn't email you directly, that is a big mistake. But to not hear anything for months, and not even confirming travel arrangements to begin with is completely your mistake in not following up, when surely (being a team in the financial situation you were in, according to TB's soundcloud) would have been in the back of your mind throughout those months? I wish you luck with less on your plate Genna. You deserve a schedule you can handle, and maybe just handling Cynical Brit's channel and going back to the way things were before Axiom will only benefit you. Shoutout's to TakeTV for epic SC2 content as well. I hope this doesn't bog down the greatness that is the SC II community for days and weeks to come. | ||
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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
On August 16 2013 14:04 TheButtonmen wrote: Take threatened legal actions against her. That's what prompted the fuck Take not the tournament. He hoped. He wasnt threating legal actions agaisnt her. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11047 Posts
I think they want an excuse to quit SC and maybe move back to only their business or another esport. Ah what a waste. Still like/will consume both party's content. | ||
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XiaoXiaoo
Switzerland20 Posts
I can see why Dennis may get angry over publicly released private conversations, but the sympathy of the community will definitely goto Genna + TB, and we all know the community follows their hearts in most issues so... things don't look too great either way. In the end, the thing I'm most worried about is Genna's mental health being able to recover from this team management and stuff... gl Genna. | ||
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NeThZOR
South Africa7387 Posts
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RandomPlayer
Russian Federation389 Posts
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
GLHF in the future, and GL to all parties involved. | ||
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namste
Finland2292 Posts
On August 16 2013 17:11 Sabu113 wrote: It's confusing. I didn't realize that TB and axiom suffered so much negative publicity before they released the chat logs. I vaguely get the sense that they might be eyeing an exit between this and the "no events" tweet. Actually in the sound cloud, he is really hinting at an exit. I think they want an excuse to quit SC and maybe move back to only their business or another esport. Would be a shame for all their players tbh. They're a good bunch. | ||
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Hellbat
223 Posts
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Liman
Serbia681 Posts
One does not quit for minor obstacles and mistakes. | ||
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
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Gowerly
United Kingdom916 Posts
Take and Acer couldn't find the funds to help them out. Therefore, Axiom couldn't attend. The shit that was on Twitter about them not attending was ridiculous "Herrr they're stupid why compete in a tournament you know you wouldn't be able to attend", like you know that this far in advance. Genna made a mistake posting the content of the e-mails/conversations. However, as she's not German she's not really covered by the "all private conversations have some privacy thing attached to them" that German law has, so nothing can be done. Take is angry, said angry things, now everyone is angry and we're in an infinite loop of hate. It's sad. Everyone made mistakes here. Nothing generally illegal, but widely regarded as immoral. I'm pretty confident that if people knew everything that went on in the games industry and the e-sports industry, a lot of people would laugh and leave. | ||
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pmp10
3279 Posts
And we used to deride Jessica for recording phone-calls. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:01 Clicker wrote: (( I've been out of the SC2 scene mix the past two weeks...was this foreseen at all? ;cThis is all happening because SKT or KT didn't win proleague T_T | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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robih
Austria1085 Posts
On August 16 2013 17:11 XiaoXiaoo wrote: but the sympathy of the community will definitely goto Genna + TB, and we all know the community follows their hearts in most issues so i dont see why. just because you feel so? | ||
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Entirety
1423 Posts
On August 16 2013 17:28 Musicus wrote: Huh, I didn't expect that. When I saw her blog post, with the chats, I just assumed she asked every party involved beforehand. I think she did a mistake and I get why Dennis and Acer are angry, but I don't think she has to step down. Well good luck Genna, maybe we will see her back. Listen to TB's thoughts and you will understand her struggle with depression and the difficulties of managing a team. In short, no she did not quit over this incident. This incident is one of many which eventually caused her to make her decision (which was a long time coming). | ||
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saiyogo
Vietnam136 Posts
I should see it as a lesson and be more careful talking to people I don't really know. Btw, no one can deny what Genma had done for the community. And I love Axiom. | ||
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Sevre
Ireland619 Posts
On August 16 2013 17:27 Qikz wrote: This is all happening because SKT or KT didn't win proleague T_T Flash is shaking his head right now like what's wrong with these people. | ||
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Rainling
United States456 Posts
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Eurekastreet
1308 Posts
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
Hell no, I think they all take it too damn seriously, it's just all done for fun after all, isn't it? I don't really see any reason for anyone to take personal consequences from a couple of chats here and there. Maybe they should all just calm down, meet up, have a beer a be cool again? I definitelly urge everyone to not stop watching or supporting any organisation just because of these small skirmishes. In my opinion both Axiom (including the Bains) and Take do a great job in SC2 and I hope we can make it so that it is all that matters. | ||
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rasers
Sweden691 Posts
On August 16 2013 17:33 Entirety wrote: Listen to TB's thoughts and you will understand her struggle with depression and the difficulties of managing a team. In short, no she did not quit over this incident. This incident is one of many which eventually caused her to make her decision (which was a long time coming). Yeah listening to the TB stuff she shouldn't even have started this Team in the first place. like this whole depression thing matters. yes not good for her. but why on earth would you then make a Team so you get even more stress?!?!? | ||
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Arkani
Austria60 Posts
but i don't care, it was not professional and thats what stands out the most. once again (sc2-)esports showed that its far away from being stable and is mostly managed from wannabee ceo's that don't get how a business is run in the first place. (meant in general, no offense to axiom or take here) im pretty sure the lawsuit threat was in heat of battle and not meant as a real threat but that does not excuse it being said.. i hope that genna gets stable again in her personal life, maybe with her being "out of" esports she can defeat the depression, its probably the most importang thing for tb+genna just sad its not possible for the community to go: "we cant attend event xyz due to financial misunderstandings, sorry to our fans and sponsors" or something along this lines. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: He is really, really not handling this well. In the other thread, he openly states that Axiom will no longer be attending anything related to Take (which hurts his team more than anything else), and essentially every comment coming from him is unprofessional. Yeah, I get the whole brutal honesty thing, but I think a little tact is important too. + Show Spoiler + On August 16 2013 13:00 TotalBiscuit wrote: Fuck Dennis. If he wasn't so concerned about saving face rather than being honest with everybody about his mismanaged tournament then some of this might not have happened. When you say "I hope there are legal consequences for what you've done" all bets are off, I lose any respect I've had for you. I hope Take enjoyed the free casting and the numbers, I'll never deal with him and his organisation ever again. ~http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=425693¤tpage=2 I doubt Take would want TB involved in his events for at least the short term, seeing that anything they discuss privately could be made public. TB already burned the bridge I would think, and now he's going to claim that he won't attend anything related to Take. Will there even be invites to reject? | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On August 16 2013 17:33 Entirety wrote: Listen to TB's thoughts and you will understand her struggle with depression and the difficulties of managing a team. In short, no she did not quit over this incident. This incident is one of many which eventually caused her to make her decision (which was a long time coming). Yeah just finished listening to it. I guess it all just grew over her head, she might just be too nice for the scene. Or she just needed a thicker skin, as she basically always made a huge post every time axiom/shoutcraft got critizised. Just shows that things really get to her and she couldn't handle it any longer, too bad. Now I am worried about TB handling the team, he is so emotional man. Just look at how he blew the whole drama out of proportion and his "fuck take" comments don't help. Also one ironic thing about the situation is, Genna posting a private message from Take, stating he is angry about her posting their private chats without permission. He is the only one that did not say anything to this yet, officialy. We only have chats that are supposed to be privat. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
Biggest drama queen who insists on doing to others what he rages about when people do the same to him. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
Good luck to them. It's a sad day On August 16 2013 17:48 rasers wrote: Yeah listening to the TB stuff she shouldn't even have started this Team in the first place. like this whole depression thing matters. yes not good for her. but why on earth would you then make a Team so you get even more stress?!?!? Because you need to fight depression | ||
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dizzy101
Netherlands2066 Posts
All this back-and-forth, releasing private emails, name-calling, etc. seems to be about 2), not 1). In fact, the original problem seems to have gotten worse, and other issues have now popped up. Why not work out the details behind closed doors and SOLVE the goddamn problem? | ||
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Lorch
Germany3673 Posts
As much as I love all the ex-slayers guys, I don't think having TB around is worth them being on a foreign team. | ||
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Wormi
Germany181 Posts
-"Take is a guy we can trust, he understands our interests." -"we can´t talk to Axiom. if the negotiations don´t go well for them, it goes public." guess who´ll get the contracts. | ||
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skatblast
United States784 Posts
On August 16 2013 17:49 Arkani wrote: i don't get it. how the f... can you release private conversations.. what did they hope to acomplish with that? creating drama so not going to the event is overshadowed? or did they go all in and hope that all their expenses get paid? Idk, she kind of reminds me of slayers.jessica. Causing drama and expecting husband to pick up for it. | ||
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rasers
Sweden691 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:05 FFW_Rude wrote: This is something you should add to the OP => https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/gennas-retirement Good luck to them. It's a sad day Because you need to fight depression with more stress and shit to worry about?. :D | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
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xpldngmn
Austria264 Posts
Having had depressions as well I wish all the best to Genna. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8444 Posts
GL Genna, TB & Take | ||
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Liman
Serbia681 Posts
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Littlesheep
Canada217 Posts
Women in positions like Genna sometimes create drama on purpose, not saying that's what this is because I don't know her personally, but to me that's what it looks like. Goodluck to TB being forced to burn bridges in his career because of her, as well as picking up and running the team by himself now. | ||
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Mekare
Germany393 Posts
The situation is fucked up and makes me quite sad, but reading the comments is ten times worse. I don't know why I keep doing it. | ||
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Ryps
Romania2740 Posts
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Schandro
57 Posts
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itsbecca
United States28 Posts
As others have said, was just an unfortunate situation overall, no one's reactions were anything but reasonable given their circumstances I'd say... | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On August 16 2013 17:10 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: He hoped. He wasnt threating legal actions agaisnt her. Because saying "I hope you can get sued over this" is much less nasty than saying "I'm considering suing you for this", right? I can understand Take being upset but if anything I find the former mindset to be far more weaselly and nasty than the latter. The second one at least can be presented as making a statement of being hurt by someone's actions and a expressing a desire to seek recompense on it. The first one is just petty horribleness, as if taking a sadistic pleasure in the idea of taking legal action and causing the other person pain and difficulties. Feel bad for Genna, must have all been very hard for her. Best wishes to her and TB. | ||
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Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:32 Schandro wrote: This hate campaign TB is trying to start against Take is disgusting and wrong. i agree wholeheartedly. Take has nothing to do with the real problems the Bains seem to have. | ||
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schaf
Germany1326 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:29 Ryps wrote: Im sure she will read all the comments, so Id like to say Im sorry shes leaving; She had the best intentions and its sad to see her depart from starcraft scene. I hope she doesn't... If this is what she had to deal with on some days during her manager job, I'm wondering how she made it this far. I have nothing but respect for her and some comments on her blog made me even sick, I can't imagine how it is for her. Keep going Genna, you were very successful even if this community cannot appreciate it at large. | ||
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Gianttt
Netherlands194 Posts
Don't admit your loss to the losers! | ||
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Littlesheep
Canada217 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:38 Naphal wrote: i agree wholeheartedly. Take has nothing to do with the real problems the Bains seem to have. Yep. The Bains need to work out their problems privately and stop airing their dirty laundry. This could've all been handled in two Tweets "Axiom is unable to attend ATC" "Genna Bain steps down from Axiom" | ||
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Czarnodziej
Poland624 Posts
No respect for this lady. | ||
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
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nikoYO
Germany131 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:11 Wormi wrote: from sponsors/companies point of view this is like: -"Take is a guy we can trust, he understands our interests." -"we can´t talk to Axiom. if the negotiations don´t go well for them, it goes public." guess who´ll get the contracts. i wanted to say that thx nicely put.this whole drama is axiom trying to save face and blame TaKe. Axiom was done, from a sponsor perspective, as soon as she posts private convos about sponsor funds / admin stuff. | ||
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Gowerly
United Kingdom916 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:43 Littlesheep wrote: Yep. The Bains need to work out their problems privately and stop airing their dirty laundry. This could've all been handled in two Tweets "Axiom is unable to attend ATC" "Genna Bain steps down from Axiom" The twitter shit that Axiom got for saying they weren't attending ATC is horrific. Yes, you can say that "well there will be uninformed people spouting their ignorant opinions on twitter", but it's no real excuse for it. Anyone who wanted to make sure that their side of the story came across, to show that Axiom did everything they could would have done the same. When you're in the business to make sure your team/company gets the best press they can, having people going around saying "hurr why did you join a tournament if you couldn't make the offline finals?!" doesn't help with that. I can see the need to show their side of the story. It was just not done as well as it could have been. Then anger, then hate, then suffering. | ||
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Littlesheep
Canada217 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:55 Gowerly wrote: The twitter shit that Axiom got for saying they weren't attending ATC is horrific. Yes, you can say that "well there will be uninformed people spouting their ignorant opinions on twitter", but it's no real excuse for it. Anyone who wanted to make sure that their side of the story came across, to show that Axiom did everything they could would have done the same. When you're in the business to make sure your team/company gets the best press they can, having people going around saying "hurr why did you join a tournament if you couldn't make the offline finals?!" doesn't help with that. I can see the need to show their side of the story. It was just not done as well as it could have been. Then anger, then hate, then suffering. I think the E-Mails were posted out of frustration, I don't think it was to improve the teams image. Arguing on the internet, in public, is the worst press a team can get, even if you're right. I think Genna just got frustrated. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:12 skatblast wrote: Idk, she kind of reminds me of slayers.jessica. Causing drama and expecting husband to pick up for it. Pretty funny considering TB had quite the opinion about Jessica. | ||
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Latty
Germany567 Posts
On August 16 2013 16:50 GTPGlitch wrote: They DIDN'T know there was going to be an offline final until they had already registered, and because of that Axiom assumed travel would be covered which it wasn't, and they posted proof of that, and then apparently Take shit on GB for posting her reasoning so that her team didn't get hated on. Thus, this. ofc they knew .. genna postet the email from february where this is clearly stated! Take has done nothing wrong, but i guess its too hard to understand for people that have no idea how the basic buiseness relationship works. You make sure you know everything, if you dont, you ask. If i would run my buiseness like they do esports i would be broke and homeless within a year.. | ||
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NightOfTheDead
Lithuania1711 Posts
On August 16 2013 19:07 Assirra wrote: Pretty funny considering TB had quite the opinion about Jessica. Difference is, Jessica had put reputation of her team on the line. | ||
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
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Grollicus
Germany287 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:11 Wormi wrote: from sponsors/companies point of view this is like: -"Take is a guy we can trust, he understands our interests." -"we can´t talk to Axiom. if the negotiations don´t go well for them, it goes public." guess who´ll get the contracts. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On August 16 2013 19:09 NightOfTheDead wrote: Difference is, Jessica had put reputation of her team on the line. Considering that whenever you deal with Axiom you have the risk of your private emails getting posted on the internet, i say there has been a serious hit for reputation. | ||
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F.O.A.D.
Canada100 Posts
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pmp10
3279 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:11 Wormi wrote: from sponsors/companies point of view this is like: -"Take is a guy we can trust, he understands our interests." -"we can´t talk to Axiom. if the negotiations don´t go well for them, it goes public." guess who´ll get the contracts. Nobody will. Sponsors can't be expected to care which part of community is reliable and will take their business elsewhere. Dramas and fanboy wars like this hurt sponsors and so all of us equally. | ||
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
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Val_
Ukraine156 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:42 ssxsilver wrote: Never was a T.B. fan. I respect him for his hard work in the e-sports community, but sometimes he just lets trolls get the best of him and goes on a freak out. I seen him do it once or twice, so i'm not really confident with the direction Axiom is going. He let's "trolls" get the better of him because it's his internet persona/personality. Back when he was on Something Awful you'd find it hard to find a single person who even liked the guy, but when Youtube took offf he jumped on the bandwagon and has ended up with a hell of a lot of fans who just know him for being a "cynical brit". I respect everything he's done for both eSports and Axiom and I hope he continues to support the team in place of Gemma and makes a huge success of it, but I can't personally say I'll ever be a fan of his due to his personality :p | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
I do hope the Bains can learn something from this though. They chose to make it public which was basically what caused the shitstorm. Look at the amount of times Alex Garfield steps out of the shadows to comment on things. I can remember two off the top of my head, once regarding those racist comments and once when Idra left EG. Theres probably been more, but Axiom could learn a lot from him how/when to go public with things. Furthermore a lot of blame is being put on "the community" (Im starting to really dislike that word). They are a part of the community themselves. So they blame themselves for the troubles. They also blame Nazgul, Day9 and poor 16 year old Bob who just likes to watch a bit of WCS when its on and doesnt even know what TL.net is. That is to name a few. Call out the individuals responsible instead, by blaming "the community" you're suddenly gonna make thousands of nerds feeling hit by shit they dont deserve (and rightfully so...), which just further escalates the shitstorm. On a last note I feel it might be good to point out that the tweet by TB where he complains about people trying to save face holds some truth to it. But by god dont be the most face-saving person ever when you say that. How many public face-saving statements did Take make concerning all of this? Exactly. Or take another look at dear Mr Garfield again, how often does he try to save EG face (and EG gets A LOT of shit)? + Show Spoiler + Axiom was getting crucified over it for no apparent reason and Gennas duty as manager was to do what she could to alleviate that. She did exactly what any other team owner would have done in that situation, tried to clear the air. is exactly what it is to save face. And no, any other team owner wouldnt have done the same. Actually, no other probably would. When stupid community member make stupid statements either because of lack of intelligence, lack of information or just because they enjoy flaming, then you just do one thing: ignore it. Its that "simple". I do hope both Bains can find their place in the community somewhere though (supposing they still want to be here). Sadly, right now almost every time i hear something from TB its drama or complaints about Blizz/WCS/Random retards posting shit/Other community members. Hopefully he can get back having a much more positive influence on the community, which I know he can do and has done plenty in the past. Hes still a great commentator. Sadly, he doesnt seem to enjoy being a part of SC2 as much recently :-/ . | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
What people think: We are a community and everyone is working together to bring us great SC2. Reality: All of the teams and event runners are businesses, all who are self interested and want to make money to support themselves. No one is to blame, but it is a reality we must accept. Not everyone is going to agree on everything. Also this is pretty good and topical: http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/15/4622252/plague-of-game-dev-harassment-erodes-industry-spurs-support-groups | ||
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shell
Portugal2722 Posts
sad.. sad.. day | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Didn't expected a we can't attend post to be getting out of hand that badly. Guess I underestimated twitter hope people stop using it soon. | ||
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mikedebo
Canada4341 Posts
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Jacmert
Canada1709 Posts
On August 16 2013 14:04 TheButtonmen wrote: Take threatened legal actions against her. That's what prompted the fuck Take not the tournament. Do you mean this quote, that according to Genna is what Take said? [6:51:33 AM] Dennis.Gehlen: actually i hope that by law [6:51:40 AM] Dennis.Gehlen: this is something you can get punnished for? Assuming that's true, it's not even saying that he wants to sue them. And looking at the context of the statement, I would question how literal he's being with the whole thing; when I read it, I understood it more as an expression of exasperation/frustration. Which is why the wording is "i hope that..." not, "I'm going to". Honestly, guys, if this is all the info we have so far, can we please not jump to conclusions right away? Especially when it's only coming from one side of the story? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 16 2013 20:18 Jacmert wrote: Do you mean this quote, that according to Genna is what Take said? Assuming that's true, it's not even saying that he wants to sue them. And looking at the context of the statement, I would question how literal he's being with the whole thing; when I read it, I understood it more as an expression of exasperation/frustration. Which is why the wording is "i hope that..." not, "I'm going to". Honestly, guys, if this is all the info we have so far, can we please not jump to conclusions right away? Especially when it's only coming from one side of the story? I am sure there is stuff out there that we didn't read and other people saying other stuff. We are not aware of everything. As I said before, they are both businesses and expecting them to be anything else is silly. If the event was going to cost Axiom to much money, its not responsible for them to attend. Although they made a promise to Take TV to attend, they also made a promise to their players to take care of them. | ||
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dreamseller
Australia914 Posts
On August 16 2013 14:44 thirtyapm wrote: how does leaving help??? cmon genna, stay and help the team out. regardless of whether this is a mistake, learn and grow. you were doing great, keep at it. and /thread. honestly that's all that needs to be said from the community to TB+Genna. The rest is all he said she said. | ||
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
I hope TB can manage effectively, Axiom has definitely had its fair share of shining moments recently, they are looking to only improve from here, managerial troubles are never a good thing for an organization to deal with. | ||
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Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
Takes response in the other thread. | ||
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
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Taipoka
Brazil1224 Posts
On August 16 2013 19:56 Kreb wrote: Too bad. Especially since there didnt even seem to be an issue to begin with. I mean, Axiom had perfect reasons not to attend ATC. Miscommunication happen and sometimes you just have to deal with it. Then somehow the reactions to a non-issue started all this. And a possibly slightly out of sense comment by (a probably angry) Take which wasnt even formulated as a threat turned into this shitstorm with insults being thrown around to well respected community members on twitter. The initial issue wasnt even an issue, then somehow a pretty big issue was created by reactions from it.... I do hope the Bains can learn something from this though. They chose to make it public which was basically what caused the shitstorm. Look at the amount of times Alex Garfield steps out of the shadows to comment on things. I can remember two off the top of my head, once regarding those racist comments and once when Idra left EG. Theres probably been more, but Axiom could learn a lot from him how/when to go public with things. Furthermore a lot of blame is being put on "the community" (Im starting to really dislike that word). They are a part of the community themselves. So they blame themselves for the troubles. They also blame Nazgul, Day9 and poor 16 year old Bob who just likes to watch a bit of WCS when its on and doesnt even know what TL.net is. That is to name a few. Call out the individuals responsible instead, by blaming "the community" you're suddenly gonna make thousands of nerds feeling hit by shit they dont deserve (and rightfully so...), which just further escalates the shitstorm. On a last note I feel it might be good to point out that the tweet by TB where he complains about people trying to save face holds some truth to it. But by god dont be the most face-saving person ever when you say that. How many public face-saving statements did Take make concerning all of this? Exactly. Or take another look at dear Mr Garfield again, how often does he try to save EG face (and EG gets A LOT of shit)? + Show Spoiler + Axiom was getting crucified over it for no apparent reason and Gennas duty as manager was to do what she could to alleviate that. She did exactly what any other team owner would have done in that situation, tried to clear the air. is exactly what it is to save face. And no, any other team owner wouldnt have done the same. Actually, no other probably would. When stupid community member make stupid statements either because of lack of intelligence, lack of information or just because they enjoy flaming, then you just do one thing: ignore it. Its that "simple". I do hope both Bains can find their place in the community somewhere though (supposing they still want to be here). Sadly, right now almost every time i hear something from TB its drama or complaints about Blizz/WCS/Random retards posting shit/Other community members. Hopefully he can get back having a much more positive influence on the community, which I know he can do and has done plenty in the past. Hes still a great commentator. Sadly, he doesnt seem to enjoy being a part of SC2 as much recently :-/ . Congratz. This is a hell of a good post and sums up what i think but can't write so well. | ||
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philip697
United Kingdom123 Posts
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On August 16 2013 19:24 pmp10 wrote: Nobody will. Sponsors can't be expected to care which part of community is reliable and will take their business elsewhere. Dramas and fanboy wars like this hurt sponsors and so all of us equally. This is probably the most realistic scenario, at least at this stage. | ||
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MVega
763 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10115 Posts
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On August 16 2013 21:07 Godwrath wrote: This kind of unnecessary drama/shit makes me want to just watch matches and not give a fuck about anything else. Good to see there's still a handful of people with this mindset left on this site. x) For those who missed it on the last page by the way, TaKe's response. | ||
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n0ave
180 Posts
I hope TB will drop his Sc2 pro team and start focus on creating more Youtube content, I enjoy his "WTF is..." videos. TB is not the person that can get hooked only on one game, he isn't a hardcore Sc2 fan. And I understand that, I used to enjoy this game, 2 years ago Sc2 was the only game I had installed and played ( a lot), but now... I haven't started it in months and I find Sc2 streams boring. Good choice by the Bains to step away from Sc2. Everybody feels that Sc2 is going downhill... and yes it's true. | ||
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zanga
659 Posts
One can only reflect upon oneself. Move forward, gl hf | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On August 16 2013 21:11 n0ave wrote: Managing Sc2 pro teams isn't providing sufficient financial gains at the moment. I hope TB will drop his Sc2 pro team and start focus on creating more Youtube content, I enjoy his "WTF is..." videos. TB is not the person that can get hooked only on one game, he isn't a hardcore Sc2 fan. And I understand that, I used to enjoy this game, 2 years ago Sc2 was the only game I had installed and played ( a lot), but now... I haven't started it in months and I find Sc2 streams boring. Good choice by the Bains to step away from Sc2. Everybody feels that Sc2 is going downhill... and yes it's true. This news means TB has to dedicate even more of his time to SC2, not shy away from it... | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8444 Posts
On August 16 2013 21:19 ZAiNs wrote: This news means TB has to dedicate even more of his time to SC2, not shy away from it... Don't fall for the bait. | ||
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Amblygon
United Kingdom57 Posts
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SgtCoDFish
United Kingdom1520 Posts
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
On August 16 2013 21:32 Amblygon wrote: So sad to see Genna go. I was so amazed by how Axiom began and how it developed. I really think Genna managed to start something special and unique in the SC2 scene, and my hope is that Axiom can continue to develop in the way that it has and that it keeps its players at the heart of things. I wish all the best to the Axiom players, and I hope none of this gets in the way of them improving to become even more amazing. GLHF! To be honest, aside from them being incredibly vocal and public about their 'story', it's not really any different or special from most other teams, especially the early Korean teams. I mean, having managers set players up with houses and equipment out of their own pockets in hopes of maybe, one day getting sponsorships sufficient to cover the expenses is what pretty much every team used to do in the past, just because of their interest and passion in the esports scene, rather than garnering themselves more publicity and youtube subscriptions. It's cool to have a little more insight into it - but to think that Genna and TB were somehow "more into it" or "giving it more heart" is pretty naive; seeing how important self-validation and "saving face" was for TB and Genna seems to contradict everything they said about caring about their team and players, too. | ||
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IcedBacon
Canada906 Posts
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
Hopefully this won't spell the end of Axiom. I never really liked or disliked them, but the fact that Genna/TB took it upon themselves to run an SC2 team when we have few non-KeSPA teams left is admirable. I hope they keep playing! | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
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DjHorsi
20 Posts
Publishing private chats and throwing everything after some crtitics. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On August 16 2013 14:27 KuKri wrote: Miscommunication, Axiom couldn't spend as much money for the ATC tournament, Take tried to fix it, it didn't work out, Genna Bain revealed private communication with Take about funding, Take responded again in privately to Genna, indirectly pointing towards taking legal actions, and she made it public again? Is this what this is about? Why is Take to be blamed? I must've missed out on something... Pretty simple: when someone is doing your PR for you, you don't blast them and threaten legal action. She didn't reveal the whole thing, but it's clear that he's pissed, and after a full year of taking massive amounts of shit from everyone, I don't blame her for leaving. I don't blame TB for posting "Fuck Take" as well, because he's fucking with their team and his wife, he deserves it. For the record, I haven't given a fuck about SC2 for a long time, but I know a little bit about both depression and being in jobs where you do nothing but take shit all day, and I don't blame her in the slightest. One last thing: Never say anything in private you don't want in public, especially on the internet. Integrity is about being the same person no matter what the circumstance is. If you wanna be a dick to someone, be prepared to have a valid reason for doing so. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
Also, people can't seriously be angry with Take for not taking into account Genna's fragile mental state. They have a business relation, Genna's actions aren't excused by her mental health situation. I wish her the best and I hope she recovers, but you do have to live with your mistakes. | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
Personally i would be very surprised if Axiom are involved in SC2 this time next year. | ||
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fbi11ibf
1 Post
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On August 16 2013 21:07 Godwrath wrote: This kind of unnecessary drama/shit makes me want to just watch matches and not give a fuck about anything else. Join us. It's much better on this side. | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
Except for when there's no StarCraft to watch... I was hoping that with the oversaturation of content of 2012 dying out, more weekly/daily/several times a week leagues like Go4SC2 etc would spring up but apparently not. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:12 Topdoller wrote: Personally i would be very surprised if Axiom are involved in SC2 this time next year. I wouldn't even give it until this time next month. | ||
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JimSocks
United States968 Posts
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LogiiK
France185 Posts
gl somewhere else. | ||
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Cattlecruiser
United States340 Posts
I wasn't interested in ATC to begin with, but with this drama between Take and Axiom management I'm glad that I haven't watched a single minutes worth of it. European scene has almost 0 professionalism compared to KeSPA, exactly why I only support Axiom, Quantic, eSF and KeSPA. (Mill too but mostly for ForGG). Fuck Take, you don't need to answer to that POS Genna. | ||
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MarkCJ
Canada239 Posts
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sunless
62 Posts
Anyway, let us hope the slayer's players don't get screwed up again by another random drama. Will there still be an Axiom-Acer GSTL team next season? | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:25 Cattlecruiser wrote: Sad to see her go, her and TB were doing so much to help improve the scene. I wasn't interested in ATC to begin with, but with this drama between Take and Axiom management I'm glad that I haven't watched a single minutes worth of it. European scene has almost 0 professionalism compared to KeSPA, exactly why I only support Axiom, Quantic, eSF and KeSPA. (Mill too but mostly for ForGG). Fuck Take, you don't need to answer to that POS Genna. Pretty sure Axiom have been less professional in this than Take has... | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:34 Doodsmack wrote: It's a shame people who don't understand the law get intimidated by dumb legal threats. Take clearly is not going to do anything legally and wouldn't have a chance in hell if he tried. TB has a law degree, supposedly. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
in the UK.... | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:36 Lonyo wrote: Pretty sure Axiom have been less professional in this than Take has... I am sure the measuring who is more professional is entirely subjective and greatly influenced by personal bias. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51462 Posts
That is supposed to mean? | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:40 Plansix wrote: I am sure the measuring who is more professional is entirely subjective and greatly influenced by personal bias. nope, totally not. one side made the other look bad by revealing private information and insulting. the other side stayed calm and only apologized publicly. he doesn't know german law? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Its unknown, but a law degree from any country is still helpful in navigating any legal system and assessing if someone can take legal action against. You won’t be drafting motions or briefs, but you can a at least get an idea if someone’s legal threats should be taken seriously. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51462 Posts
Carry on :D | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
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zyce
United States649 Posts
My thoughts go out to the Axiom players who are having the spotlight turned away from them to service this clown. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:43 Pandemona wrote: No problem i thought that was meant a derogatory post, didn't mean it had substantial value behind it Carry on :Dsorry i just wanted to highlight different countries different laws no harm done. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51462 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:44 fleeze wrote: sorry i just wanted to highlight different countries different laws no harm done. Indeed! | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:41 fleeze wrote: nope, totally not. one side made the other look bad by revealing private information and insulting. the other side stayed calm and only apologized publicly. he doesn't know german law? Eh, you could be right and I wouldn’t have done that. But TB and Axiom have done as much at TakeTV for the scene, so I am willing to give them both a pass and wish them luck. I appreciate TB’s honesty and I understand why he would not be happy with Take TV. As someone in a long term relationship, I would be hostile towards anyone who made my girlfriend upset, no matter how reasonable or professional they were. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:40 Plansix wrote: I am sure the measuring who is more professional is entirely subjective and greatly influenced by personal bias. The moment they posted private conversations they "won" that battle tough. I don't see how Take could beat that without going completely off the rails publicly. | ||
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Serek
United Kingdom459 Posts
This will keep us busy till the next drama episode, I guess. | ||
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Bigtony
United States1606 Posts
Anyway she/TB have said the retirement is not about this one event so feel better. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:49 Assirra wrote: The moment they posted private conversations they "won" that battle tough. Once again, I would not have done that, but I don’t think it is a huge deal either. At the end of the day, both sides are trying to tell their side of the story and releasing those discussions puts everyone cards on the table. | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:55 Plansix wrote: Once again, I would not have done that, but I don’t think it is a huge deal either. At the end of the day, both sides are trying to tell their side of the story and releasing those discussions puts everyone cards on the table. How are private financial matters not a huge deal? | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:47 Plansix wrote: Eh, you could be right and I wouldn’t have done that. But TB and Axiom have done as much at TakeTV for the scene, so I am willing to give them both a pass and wish them luck. I appreciate TB’s honesty and I understand why he would not be happy with Take TV. As someone in a long term relationship, I would be hostile towards anyone who made my girlfriend upset, no matter how reasonable or professional they were. this directly contradicts your last post: On August 16 2013 22:40 Plansix wrote: I am sure the measuring who is more professional is entirely subjective and greatly influenced by personal bias. also take is a player who loves RTS, TB is just another caster. but that's only my opinion. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:25 Cattlecruiser wrote: Sad to see her go, her and TB were doing so much to help improve the scene. I wasn't interested in ATC to begin with, but with this drama between Take and Axiom management I'm glad that I haven't watched a single minutes worth of it. European scene has almost 0 professionalism compared to KeSPA, exactly why I only support Axiom, Quantic, eSF and KeSPA. (Mill too but mostly for ForGG). Fuck Take, you don't need to answer to that POS Genna. You need to read up on what has happened. You're being a sheep by simply trusting Genna and TBs position when they are the ones who posted private business conversations, and then started insulting Take online. All Take did was handle a bad situation, got mad when his private conversation was posted publicly, and then posted ONE post publicly explaining his position, unlike Genna who posts private conversations over and over to throw shit on Take while TB uses twitter as his personal schoolyard, acting like you and writing "fuck take". You whine about 0 professionalism in the EU, then say you only support Axiom. Are you being dumb on purpose? They posted private business conversations online, they have no professionalism what so ever. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:58 fleeze wrote: this directly contradicts your last post: also take is a player who loves RTS, TB is just another caster. but that's only my opinion. I think you need to look up what the word “subjective” means. | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:57 Gentso wrote: How are private financial matters not a huge deal? Because nothing of substance was really released beyond that they couldn’t fund more that $1,500 in travel, which we sort of already knew. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote: I think you need to look up what the word “subjective” means. nope, you need to know that emotions are unprofessional. you make excuses for TBs emotional posts, which are the most unprofessional you can be. whereas take made ONE post, where he APOLOGIZED and said he is ready to talk through the issue. i don't know how you can not see who is professional and who isn't here? it's pretty much obvious. On August 16 2013 23:02 Plansix wrote: Because nothing of substance was really released beyond that they couldn’t fund more that $1,500 in travel, which we sort of already knew. she released informations that weren't meant to be public like take covering some of TL expenses. you don't do this without asking for permission. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:02 Plansix wrote: Because nothing of substance was really released beyond that they couldn’t fund more that $1,500 in travel, which we sort of already knew. It's a breach of trust regardless, there's literally zero reason to post that discussion online without asking TaKe about it. You simply don't do that, it's a matter of principle if nothing else. | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:02 Plansix wrote: Because nothing of substance was really released beyond that they couldn’t fund more that $1,500 in travel, which we sort of already knew. Come on man, think a little. Who's paying who, how much, why, all these things have repercussions for further negotiations. | ||
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PPN
France248 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:55 Plansix wrote: Once again, I would not have done that, but I don’t think it is a huge deal either. At the end of the day, both sides are trying to tell their side of the story and releasing those discussions puts everyone cards on the table. Of course it is a huge deal because it means for anyone who'd want to be involved with Axiom that their managment cannot be trusted because they cannot keep things for themselves. Doing business with people whom you think you can't be fully honest with is hard. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:04 fleeze wrote: nope, you need to know that emotions are unprofessional. you make excuses for TBs emotional posts, which are the most unprofessional you can be. whereas take made ONE post, where he APOLOGIZED and said he is ready to talk through the issue. i don't know how you can not see who is professional and who isn't here? it's pretty much obvious. Well you have your opinion and I have mine. I value their honesty and straight talk more than an apology. You clearly value the apology. We each have our own personal beliefs on which is more important. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective • Subjectivity, a subject's personal perspective, feelings, beliefs, desires or discovery, as opposed to those made from an independent, objective, point of view | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:09 Plansix wrote: Well you have your opinion and I have mine. I value their honesty and straight talk more than an apology. You clearly value the apology. We each have our own personal beliefs on which is more important. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective • Subjectivity, a subject's personal perspective, feelings, beliefs, desires or discovery, as opposed to those made from an independent, objective, point of view LOL. maybe read what you wrote. you said which side is professional is subjective. you are wrong. | ||
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F.O.A.D.
Canada100 Posts
User was banned for this post. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:09 PPN wrote: Of course it is a huge deal because it means for anyone who'd want to be involved with Axiom that their managment cannot be trusted because they cannot keep things for themselves. Doing business with people whom you think you can't be fully honest with is hard. That is true, however most of the people running events and teams already have working relationships with TB and the team and trust them to some degree. Also they have an manager now and TB has said he is taking a step back from voicing his opinions when it comes to the team. Its was not a great decision, but I don’t think it has done permanent damage to the team and they should be fine. They should not do it in the future unless 100% necessary(such as the other side flat out lying about that they said or did) | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On August 16 2013 13:05 LuckoftheIrish wrote: Not true! I love TB and I couldn't agree more. Also for those curious this wasn't the first mishap during the ATC. It's been a pretty bad nightmare and I'll also say this. It goes both ways. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:10 fleeze wrote: LOL. maybe read what you wrote. you said which side is professional is subjective. you are wrong. No, I said measuring who is more professional is subjective and influenced by bias. That each person would make their own decision on who they believed acted more professional during the process and the process was not a math equation. | ||
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mythandier
United States828 Posts
I was a huge Axiom supporter in the beginning -- I even campaigned on the TL Website forum to get the team icon available. But seriously, stop crying for recognition already. Obviously we know you do a ton for the scene. Is that going to stop the vocal minority from being a-holes? Of course not. But that's the freaking cost of doing business. I work hand in hand with the entertainment industry and I'll tell you that I know there's so much hate it's borderline crazy but that doesn't mean you need to acknowledge it and cry constantly to be put on a freaking pedestal. If you really love the community, and I think you do, the best thing is to just keep doing what you do and try to make it better and ignore all the filth that spews forth. /rant I still have high hopes for the Ax players as they're some of the best personalities of the scene. Despite my personal pet peeves, I'll be disappointed if things continue to get worse for them. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:20 Plansix wrote: No, I said measuring who is more professional is subjective and influenced by bias. That each person would make their own decision on who they believed acted more professional during the process and the process was not a math equation. still wrong. one side takes everything out to the public without apologizing at all. the other side doesn't and only apologizes publicly. professional means you stand above the issues and don't let emotion take care of you. also you seek for a solution with the other party privately and only tell the result to the public. so i think TB is as unprofessional as you can be here. | ||
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PPN
France248 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:09 Plansix wrote: Well you have your opinion and I have mine. I value their honesty and straight talk more than an apology. You clearly value the apology. We each have our own personal beliefs on which is more important. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective • Subjectivity, a subject's personal perspective, feelings, beliefs, desires or discovery, as opposed to those made from an independent, objective, point of view If you're going the quoting path with wikipedia... Honesty != sincerity. Honesty refers to a facet of moral character and connotes positive and virtuous attributes such as integrity, truthfulness, and straightforwardness, including straightforwardness of conduct, along with the absence of lying, cheating, or theft. Furthermore, honesty means being trustworthy, loyal, fair, and sincere. Regardless of whose fault it is in the first place, TB and Genma stepped on a landmine the moment they thought it would be a good idea to publish private conversation without asking and insulting/hurting other parties involved (and I mean Acer, Take but also team MVP earlier in another thread about the ATC incident : TB's saying "begging bowl" was very inappropriate) | ||
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Ippo
708 Posts
Everything he does is right, everyone else is wrong..  | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:23 fleeze wrote: still wrong. one side takes everything out to the public without apologizing at all. the other side doesn't and only apologizes publicly. professional means you stand above the issues and don't let emotion take care of you. also you seek for a solution with the other party privately and only tell the result to the public. so i think TB is as unprofessional as you can be here. You are entitled to your opinion of how professional they are. | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:26 Plansix wrote: You are entitled to your opinion of how professional they are. and you have no clue what being "professional" even means. | ||
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:28 Gentso wrote: Ok, the opinion on professionalism is probably the dumbest discussion in this thread. Wtf? It’s the standard internet argument of taking one’s personal opinion and claiming it is “fact”. You see it all the time, ei: “Fact: This game was bad because it had a feature I didn’t like”. Its nothing new. But it is a totally dumb argument. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:29 fleeze wrote: and you have no clue what being "professional" even means. You are entitled to that opinion as well. Really, you can believe what you want, but it doesn't make you right. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:32 Plansix wrote: You are entitled to that opinion as well. Really, you can believe what you want, but it doesn't make you right. The vast majority would agree it's unprofessional to post private conversations on the internet without first checking with the other parties. The vast majority would agree it's unprofessional to say "Fuck X" where X is the person you have an issue with. The vast majority would agree it's unprofessional to talk down to any and everyone who disagrees with you using ad hominem attacks. The vast majority would agree it's unprofessional to post further private conversations after the other party has said they had issue with you posting the first lot of private conversations. The vast majority would agree it's unprofessional to post your own statements regarding events where they were trying to come to an arrangement to say something in a joint manner. Take has made only one statement in which he explained his side of the story, and apologised both to Axiom and the community. Most people would think that in comparison, Take has been far more professional than Genna or TB. | ||
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Muffloe
Sweden6061 Posts
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Taipoka
Brazil1224 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:32 Plansix wrote: You are entitled to that opinion as well. Really, you can believe what you want, but it doesn't make you right. Hope you two (Plansix and fleeze) know you are being really boring after the 2nd argument. | ||
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Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:41 Lonyo wrote: The vast majority would agree it's unprofessional to post private conversations on the internet without first checking with the other parties. The vast majority would agree it's unprofessional to say "Fuck X" where X is the person you have an issue with. The vast majority would agree it's unprofessional to talk down to any and everyone who disagrees with you using ad hominem attacks. The vast majority would agree it's unprofessional to post further private conversations after the other party has said they had issue with you posting the first lot of private conversations. The vast majority would agree it's unprofessional to post your own statements regarding events where they were trying to come to an arrangement to say something in a joint manner. Take has made only one statement in which he explained his side of the story, and apologised both to Axiom and the community. Most people would think that in comparison, Take has been far more professional than Genna or TB. its the most basic code of conduct in every business of the world really! | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:43 Taipoka wrote: Hope you two (Plansix and fleeze) know you are being really boring after the 2nd argument. That I will totally agree and I am going to just drop it at this point. On August 16 2013 23:42 Muffloe wrote: I kinda do not see the point of jumping TB for being "unprofessional". He is definately one of the honest persons in the community, like Naniwa, and they deserve only praise in my opinion I do as well and that they are up front about how hard it is to run a team. I don’t think any other team has come out and said “we run in the red and we are trying hard to change that”. I also think TB and his crew take very good care of their players and stick up for them a lot. I value that a lot and I willing to overlook some of the questionable decisions with the Take TV event. At the end of the day, we are better off with TB and Axiom than without. | ||
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eurTsItniH
887 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:29 fleeze wrote: and you have no clue what being "professional" even means. Neither do you. | ||
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PPN
France248 Posts
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F.O.A.D.
Canada100 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:32 Plansix wrote: You are entitled to that opinion as well. Really, you can believe what you want, but it doesn't make you right. Technically everything is subjective, we can only converge on objectivity, and there is a standard definition of professionalism. Your "that's your opinion" responses are laughably pathetic, you know you're wrong but you're too immature to concede. | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:53 F.O.A.D. wrote: Technically everything is subjective, we can only converge on objectivity, and there is a standard definition of professionalism. Your "that's your opinion" responses are laughably pathetic, you know you're wrong but you're too immature to concede. I love how a user called "F.O.A.D" (who's been recently banned as well, if I'm not mistaken) berates a 30 something year-old as being "too immature" while also being a condescending prick and trying to enforce his opinion on others. I find this quite humorous tbh. | ||
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Apoteosis
Chile820 Posts
Genna, you can't just leave your post at the first scandal. You have responsibilities. And btw, posting private conversations is totally suable. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:57 MasterOfPuppets wrote: I love how a user called "F.O.A.D" (who's been recently banned as well, if I'm not mistaken) berates a 30 something year-old as being "too immature" while also being a condescending prick and trying to enforce his opinion on others. I find this quite humorous tbh. Being a 30 something year-old does not mean that he or she have attain the appropriate maturity level suitable for the age. Many teens or even child have more mature thoughts and behavior than their older counterparts. FOAD is simply calling it as he sees it. "That's like, just your opinion man." is a last ditch effort to salvage w/e a dignity left there is for the losing side and is itself a very pathetic act of attempting to leave the argument arena by committing ad hominem. On August 17 2013 00:07 Apoteosis wrote: The scene is dominated by adults trying to be kids, full of people with the Peter Pan syndrome. Genna, you can't just leave your post at the first scandal. You have responsibilities. And btw, posting private conversations is totally suable. This can't be any more appropriate. | ||
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Phantom_Sky
Hong Kong512 Posts
wondering any website keeping these interesting stories | ||
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bodomReaper
Germany5 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:42 Muffloe wrote: I kinda do not see the point of jumping TB for being "unprofessional". He is definately one of the honest persons in the community, like Naniwa, and they deserve only praise in my opinion Yes but this is only partially true. You see, it's like this: If you claim to be a professional, you have to act the part. No matter how much you want to "speak your mind" you still have to be polite and politically correct. When huge companies like Microsoft and Sony are at "war" with each other, you don't see the CEO of MS writing things like "oh, and btw, FUCK YOU Sony" on twitter. If you write stupid kiddy stuff online as a so called professional, you have to act the part! That isn't the first time, that TB forgot, that he has to behave a certain way. I'm not trying to bash on him. He has obviously done a lot, but some things are just not ok. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 16 2013 23:57 MasterOfPuppets wrote: I love how a user called "F.O.A.D" (who's been recently banned as well, if I'm not mistaken) berates a 30 something year-old as being "too immature" while also being a condescending prick and trying to enforce his opinion on others. I find this quite humorous tbh. The whole thing is super amusing in context of my work day, since I am drafting a motion in which we are submitting another attorney’s emails to us as evidence of him negotiating in bad faith and withholding information. I would also feel bad about it, except I am holding the invoice for the thousands of dollars he cost my client. Although not exactly the same, releasing discussions and emails is pretty minor is my book when it comes to be a professional. If I am going to say things I don’t want repeated, I call people on the phone. Business is mean and not everyone is going to like you in the end. Although I don’t always agree with TB, I respect that he is at least honest about that aspect of things and doesn’t try to hide it. It is refreshing in a scene that seems very focused on selling the idea that we are one big happy family of SC2 players all the time. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15487 Posts
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SHOOG
United States1639 Posts
TotalBiscuit knows what he has to do, so I trust that he will keep Axiom going, | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:17 Plansix wrote: The whole thing is super amusing in context of my work day, since I am drafting a motion in which we are submitting another attorney’s emails to us as evidence of him negotiating in bad faith and withholding information. I would also feel bad about it, except I am holding the invoice for the thousands of dollars he cost my client. Although not exactly the same, releasing discussions and emails is pretty minor is my book when it comes to be a professional. If I am going to say things I don’t want repeated, I call people on the phone. Business is mean and not everyone is going to like you in the end. Although I don’t always agree with TB, I respect that he is at least honest about that aspect of things and doesn’t try to hide it. It is refreshing in a scene that seems very focused on selling the idea that we are one big happy family of SC2 players all the time. Who are you submitting those emails to? The public? Are you doing this as a last resort, or as a first step? There's a point at which such conversations may end up being public. Step 1 of discussions is not it. | ||
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Swords
6038 Posts
I like TakeTV, I like Axiom, I like Genna, and I like TB (even though I disagree with the way he shoots his mouth off sometimes). It's really unfortunate that everyone's name is being dragged through the mud right now and it hurts everyone involved. I'm shocked by the way Genna/TB are acting though. The only thing they're doing right now is torpedoing Axiom. Nobody is going to want to sponsor a team that releases private conversations, is managed by a guy who trashes event organizers on twitter, and appears to lack business acumen entirely. If they're hurting for money now it's only going to get harder as a result, and that's really sad because I think Axiom is a fun team and good for the scene. Their openness was refreshing, but in this case they've been way too open about the wrong things. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:20 Lonyo wrote: Who are you submitting those emails to? The public? Are you doing this as a last resort, or as a first step? There's a point at which such conversations may end up being public. Step 1 of discussions is not it. To the court, which makes it public. Its the fastest way to prove he has been acting in bad faith and counter his claims that we refused to communicate. It is not the only way, but it is fastest. It is also underhanded, but we don't really care. There has been some debate, but we want him to knock it off, so we are taking a shot at him in open court to prove a point. Its mean and some would call it unprofessional, but others would say that the other side earned it by withholding information. Everyone has their own opinion on the subject, even in my office. . | ||
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XaCez
Sweden6991 Posts
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:07 Apoteosis wrote: The scene is dominated by adults trying to be kids, full of people with the Peter Pan syndrome. Genna, you can't just leave your post at the first scandal. You have responsibilities. And btw, posting private conversations is totally suable. As much as it seems like a bit of a dick move by Take to get so angry over so little, I have to agree with you. Yep, she should of asked to post that conversation before she did, that much is obvious. Then, she could of said 'oops sorry didn't mean no offense just wanted to clear up the situation- its not like I edited anything,' but no instead she quits right away in the face of some hate. Everybody makes mistakes, the community and esports organisations will forgive you, it feels weak to just run away like that. I mean I don't even know what it accomplishes since she's with TB. Now she doesn't have to deal with the mess she created? Cmon. | ||
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lessQQmorePEWPEW
Jamaica921 Posts
seems to be the most drama filled esport | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:33 lichter wrote: I wonder how many people in this thread arguing about "unprofessionalism" actually have a real job (or better, own a business). You don't need to own a business or have a real job to get in touch or get a feeling of professionalism. While I think your main point was that there is too much bullshit in these 3 threads I guess which I can agree to. (if that was your point) | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:30 Steel wrote: As much as it seems like a bit of a dick move by Take to get so angry over so little, I have to agree with you. Yep, she should of asked to post that conversation before she did, that much is obvious. Then, she could of said 'oops sorry didn't mean no offense just wanted to clear up the situation- its not like I edited anything,' but no instead she quits right away in the face of some hate. Everybody makes mistakes, the community and esports organisations will forgive you, it feels weak to just run away like that. I mean I don't even know what it accomplishes since she's with TB. Now she doesn't have to deal with the mess she created? Cmon. You may want to listen to TBs message on the subject. She has a lot of other stuff going on, like depression, being a mother and helping TB run his normal youtube stuff. The team proved to be to much for her to handle on top of all of that. To quote him: “…At some point you need to take a step back and focus on taking care of yourself and making sure your doing what you need to stay healthy.” That doesn’t have to do specifically with the Take TV stuff, but the team in general. It’s a harder job that most people think. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:34 NarutO wrote: You don't need to own a business or have a real job to get in touch or get a feeling of professionalism. While I think your main point was that there is too much bullshit in these 3 threads I guess which I can agree to. (if that was your point) It isn't necessary but it certainly helps to understand the situation. 'Professionalism' isn't as black and white as a lot of people make it seem. And, unfortunately, sometimes acting 'professional' isn't always the best thing to do. This situation is far more complicated than we can assume based on the handful of threads and posts provided. But yeah basically so much BS and crap being flung around lately | ||
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ChowMuddha
Australia8 Posts
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Muffloe
Sweden6061 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:17 bodomReaper wrote: Yes but this is only partially true. You see, it's like this: If you claim to be a professional, you have to act the part. No matter how much you want to "speak your mind" you still have to be polite and politically correct. When huge companies like Microsoft and Sony are at "war" with each other, you don't see the CEO of MS writing things like "oh, and btw, FUCK YOU Sony" on twitter. If you write stupid kiddy stuff online as a so called professional, you have to act the part! That isn't the first time, that TB forgot, that he has to behave a certain way. I'm not trying to bash on him. He has obviously done a lot, but some things are just not ok. It is unnecessary, although I am not the one to deny TB his right to speak his mind | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:34 Plansix wrote: You may want to listen to TBs message on the subject. She has a lot of other stuff going on, like depression, being a mother and helping TB run his normal youtube stuff. The team proved to be to much for her to handle on top of all of that. To quote him: “…At some point you need to take a step back and focus on taking care of yourself and making sure your doing what you need to stay healthy.” That doesn’t have to do specifically with the Take TV stuff, but the team in general. It’s a harder job that most people think. No see, because it's much easier for random kids to spew their vitriol and shit up this forum with their stupidity than it is to actually consider the whole situation in perspective and relate to another human fucking being. But at least it's still true what a poster said, that in a single day of their life Genna, TB (and TaKe for that matter, I dare add) do more for eSports than these drama-mongering fiends ever will in their entire lives. | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:34 Plansix wrote: You may want to listen to TBs message on the subject. She has a lot of other stuff going on, like depression, being a mother and helping TB run his normal youtube stuff. The team proved to be to much for her to handle on top of all of that. To quote him: “…At some point you need to take a step back and focus on taking care of yourself and making sure your doing what you need to stay healthy.” That doesn’t have to do specifically with the Take TV stuff, but the team in general. It’s a harder job that most people think. I was not aware of that, thanks for pointing it out. If she had been feeling the pressure for some time, I understand this situation full of unnecessary bullshit would push her into stepping down, at least in an official way. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15487 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:33 lichter wrote: I wonder how many people in this thread arguing about "unprofessionalism" actually have a real job (or better, own a business). TL being an old website means a lot of us are 25+. I have a very solid understanding of what professionalism means and Genna's goodbye post had none. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:42 MasterOfPuppets wrote: No see, because it's much easier for random kids to spew their vitriol and shit up this forum with their stupidity than it is to actually consider the whole situation in perspective and relate to another human fucking being. But at least it's still true what a poster said, that in a single day of their life Genna, TB (and TaKe for that matter, I dare add) do more for eSports than these drama-mongering fiends ever will in their entire lives. Yeah, I don’t think people understand how hard running a team or tournament can be. The only thing I hope comes out of the end of all of this is that more people in the community realize that the business of running an event and running a team does not always line up. More often than not they conflict and that can be hard to work out.. At the end of the day they are all trying to make money and make this whole idea of playing competitive videos games work. Also, fuck plane tickets. When are we going to focus on local events with local players and get away from the idea of flying every player all over creation. | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote: The only thing I hope comes out of the end of all of this is that more people in the community realize that the business of running an event and running a team does not always line up. But that would imply them actually thinking for themselves instead of flinging shit at whoever's involved (or at each other; or both) and acting like complete and utter morons. Sure would be fun to see though, no question about that. | ||
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synd
Bulgaria586 Posts
No reason for Genna to bail out, since I'm sure she was the best person for the job. I'm hoping that she didn't bail out because of the weird 'treat' by Take that posting skype chat logs isn't legal, lol. #nextlevelesports | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
That's not at all speculation, I'm actually, legitimately worried that things between her and TB are stable. GL TB! Hopefully Axiom doesn't turn into a Dota 2 team now. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
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bodomReaper
Germany5 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:39 Muffloe wrote: It is unnecessary, although I am not the one to deny TB his right to speak his mind I'm not denying his right to speak his mind. I am however denying to speak his mind the way he does especially when he bashes certain companies for not "being professional". If you are a true pro, you will find a better way to speak your mind than "Fuck You Mister xyz". He could have said something along the lines of "never going to work with Take again" or even "I advise you all to never work with Take again", but writing "Fuck You" in all caps like a little League of Legends kiddo high on sugar is not the right thing to do. | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
On August 17 2013 01:00 Treemonkeys wrote: How do you run a team and get involved in a tournament without going out of your way to make damn sure you know what will be required and will be able to afford whatever arrangements are needed? This is an epic fail by Axion. It's a lesson learned. I think she should've just manned up to making a mistake instead of playing ignorant and trying to get extra compensation last minute. Reading the way she handled things reminded me of when I was a teen dealing with evga customer service after my warranty expired. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On August 17 2013 01:03 Gentso wrote: It's a lesson learned. I think she should've just manned up to making a mistake instead of playing ignorant and trying to get extra compensation last minute. Reading the way she handled things reminded me of when I was a teen dealing with evga customer service after my warranty expired. It's not a lesson learned if she walks away, it sounds like she's really screwing her team. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
On August 17 2013 01:10 Treemonkeys wrote: It's not a lesson learned if she walks away, it sounds like she's really screwing her team. Yeah. I was kind of talking about her position in the early stages of organizing her team's involvement with the tournament and how she could have handled it. She's definitely screwing her team right now, and a little more than just her team. Somehow, I see her coming back. She doesn't strike me as someone who can let go just like that. | ||
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
On August 17 2013 01:13 ComaDose wrote: I am so amazed he hasn't posted in this thread yet. Must be hard for him to resist. If he is TB, then he has already, earlier pages. | ||
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SaWse
Belgium102 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:55 MasterOfPuppets wrote: But that would imply them actually thinking for themselves instead of flinging shit at whoever's involved (or at each other; or both) and acting like complete and utter morons. Sure would be fun to see though, no question about that. You're the moron, the reason why there is this shitstorm in the first place is because your so amazing community figures such as the Bain family start flinging shit when they don't like what's going on. They brought this on themselves with their ego and stupidity, if they just solved this shit in private as they should have none of this would've ever happened. Is that so hard for you to grasp, are you this dense? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 01:10 Treemonkeys wrote: It's not a lesson learned if she walks away, it sounds like she's really screwing her team. By letting someone else take over the role and hiring a second manager? How is that screwing them? Also, she suffers from depression, has been stressed out for a full year, runs TBs normal business and is a mother. I think her reasons for stepping away are reasonable and she is leaving the team in fine shape. | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On August 17 2013 01:15 SaWse wrote: You're the moron, the reason why there is this shitstorm in the first place is because your so amazing community figures such as the Bain family start flinging shit when they don't like what's going on. They brought this on themselves with their ego and stupidity, if they just solved this shit in private as they should have none of this would've ever happened. Is that so hard for you to grasp, are you this dense? I like how you're proving my point by making this post, but please continue in your quest for drama. | ||
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Noobity
United States871 Posts
I think we're at a point in time where professionalism in it's current incarnation is outdated and needs to be re-tuned anyway. I think a lot of what was posted was out of frustration and possibly fear, to be fair, but I don't see it as unprofessional at heart, but only current definition. I'm personally glad to see a level of transparency that is otherwise extremely rare in eSports, and for what it's worth I'm much more likely to buy Acer goods after hearing that they're handling this situation respectfully of the individuals involved. I'll be the first to admit that I reacted negatively towards them and Take on twitter (these tweets have been removed) and apologize if anyone read those tweets somehow (I have I dunno, 20 followers ish) and it did even the tiniest to their brands. I don't think TB will be able to do it, honestly. Not because I don't believe he can't mentally or physically do the work, but because I think he's going to be fucking overwhelmed as shit with all his other stuff. I honestly think he (and Genna as well from her pretty outstanding work with the team up until now) would be wonderful team owners if their workloads were quite a bit lower than they are currently. They have the right ideas for the scene and growth, and I think even the cynical one has a mindset that would allow him to succeed at it. I have no experience running a team or business or media empire or family or anything, so this isn't exactly something with a lot of sway and I hope that I'm wrong in TB's success. I think that if he can keep from collapsing under the stress I see a very bright future ahead of Axiom, eclipsing their past even. I'm hoping that TB calls on the fanbase for more in the future. I think there are a great many of us that want to see Axiom succeed, and would be willing to help where necessary. If you need someone to read through emails and weed out some of the bullshit or unnecessary ones, if you need someone to guide a player around town for an event you can't get to, if you need updates written or need... man I dunno, whatever you guys need. Call on the fanbase. We'd be happy to help. But of course, these are simply suggestions from someone who honestly doesn't know better and has just the best wishes intended. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
On August 17 2013 01:15 renaissanceMAN wrote: If he is TB, then he has already, earlier pages. No I don't think he has its pretty easy to check. | ||
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mythandier
United States828 Posts
- Praise in Public - Punish in Private (punish can be: coach, develop, dispute...etc.) This applies to both managing individuals (as a supervisor) and business relationships -- and for good reason. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:44 Mohdoo wrote: TL being an old website means a lot of us are 25+. I have a very solid understanding of what professionalism means and Genna's goodbye post had none. It's a goodbye post, I don't know if she cared very much about professionalism at that point. | ||
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bodomReaper
Germany5 Posts
On August 17 2013 01:49 Grumbels wrote: It's a goodbye post, I don't know if she cared very much about professionalism at that point. Maybe, but unfortunately her actions are still bound to Axiom and whatever she does will always in one way or the other reflect this team since she was the one, who "created" this clan. It's like this: If Bill Gates suddenly decides to be a racist you can expect the MS sales to drop. Simple logic | ||
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TitusVI
Germany8319 Posts
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Bizeheryer
Germany307 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On August 17 2013 01:37 mythandier wrote: There's a very simple axiom (pun intended) in professional leadership that they teach in most schools of management: - Praise in Public - Punish in Private (punish can be: coach, develop, dispute...etc.) This applies to both managing individuals (as a supervisor) and business relationships -- and for good reason. In my experience in life, nothing that is done in private and can't be made public is anything honorable, honest, or ethical. If it was any of those things, then people wouldn't mind if it was made it public. People would be proud of it. I remember vividly sitting in a private meeting and my boss was trying to come up with a story to tell a customer. He was trying to lie, and after someone came up with something he stated "Well, now that's a good story!" as to why we couldn't fulfill a contract. Generally, private meetings result in someone get screwed over (usually people that aren't that meeting), a customer, a coworker, a supplier, ect... | ||
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Wiciu87
Poland14 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:13 BronzeKnee wrote: In my experience in life, nothing that is done in private and can't be made public is anything honorable, honest, or ethical. I think that is a commentary on your life then, not on things done in private. Privacy, or more to the point, confidentiality, is a crucial aspect of trust, which in turn can be a crucial component of healthy business dealings. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:16 Sn0_Man wrote: I think that is a commentary on your life then, not on things done in private. Privacy, or more to the point, confidentiality, is a crucial aspect of trust, which in turn can be a crucial component of healthy business dealings. Give me a real life example. No theories here please. My wife and I have worked in many different industries (business, healthcare, technology, human services, charitable organizations), and private meetings are always the same (though in healthcare patient confidentiality and privacy are exceptions). Generally someone is getting screwed, and that is why it is private. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:12 Bizeheryer wrote: Team Axiom should find a new manager. TB is not the right guy to lead and manage a team. They already have a new manager. I can't remember her name, but he said he will bring on more staff as necessary. | ||
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SightlessGunner
6 Posts
ATC finals start tomorrow, so any statement should be given to community. And Genna let us know what happened. Best way she could (without Dennis' help). John would do the same, also without hiding any details. Did we get any words from Take? Check ATC website. I've got a quest for you: try to find ANY info about finals as offline event or anything about Axiom not coming... Someone said that Genna's statement was "not professional". Maybe if she were just a team manager... But she was more like a mother/auntie for this guys! There are so many good and bad feelings involved... Axiom story was all bout family and that's why it is so unique! GJ Genna! Thanks for everything! and GL John! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "I sort of assumed it would all be online only until it was revealed later the would be an offline finals." Genna Bain "Assumptions. Mothers of all screw ups" John Bain | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On August 17 2013 01:15 Plansix wrote: By letting someone else take over the role and hiring a second manager? How is that screwing them? Also, she suffers from depression, has been stressed out for a full year, runs TBs normal business and is a mother. I think her reasons for stepping away are reasonable and she is leaving the team in fine shape. Sorry but if all that is true, why in the world she started a team in the first place? And really, leaving the team in a fine shape? She just gave a major hit to the team by revealing those private conversations. A hit which might as well be unrecoverable considering that TB said they are already in red. Who would sponsor a team that would hang out the dirty laundry like that? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:20 Assirra wrote: Sorry but if all that is true, why in the world she started a team in the first place? And really, leaving the team in a fine shape? She just gave a major hit to team by revealing those private conversations. A hit which might as well be unrecoverable considering that TB said they are already in red. Who would sponsors a team that would hang out the dirty laundry like that? Who knows, but I think TB can handle that problem and they have a manager set up already for the team. TB is very successful on Youtube and likely can sell the teams to sponsors, even with this minor bit of drama. In a couple weeks, no one will really remember a lot of this stuff. | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:17 BronzeKnee wrote: Give me a real life example. No theories here please. My wife and I have worked in many different industries (business, healthcare, technology, human services, charitable organizations), and private meetings are always the same. Generally someone is getting screwed, and that is why it is private. Simple example. Your subordinate messes something up bad. You don't publicly chastise said person in public in front of fellow employees and/or customers. You pull him or her off to the side to deal with it. Addressing it in public does very little good for your employees (demoralizes them) or your customers (makes you look unprofessional). | ||
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Maxus80
1 Post
It is inevitable that situations like these will arise, and I'm happy it hasn't happened more often. A lot of these people started as, for example, youtube personalities. That does not give them special skills at management. What most of you are also forgetting, unlike a CEO of some company, these people get confronted with bucketloads of SHIT on a daily basis, given to them by this community. Granted, it's the bad apples, but it's those that you remember most. It is inevitable that, under pressure, someone will make a mistake or lash out. Would you not lash out towards people that are sending threats to your wife? Insulting your wife? You have to always keep in mind that Genna and totalbiscuit ARE MARRIED and no matter how much you turn it around, that will ALWAYS influence what happens. Everyone here is human and if TB would not take up arms for his wife, Genna, he would be a giant tard. In short, just keep in mind, not eeveryone holds a masters degree in management/marketing/whatever | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:24 Kambing wrote: Simple example. Your subordinate messes something up bad. You don't publicly chastise said person in public in front of fellow employees and/or customers. You pull him or her off to the side to deal with it. Addressing it in public does very little good for your employees (demoralizes them) or your customers (makes you look unprofessional). Well I didn't mean disciplinary meetings, I should have clarified that. However, you shouldn't chastise anyone in private either (in that case someone is getting screwed), either you fire someone (which quickly becomes public) or your explaining to them how to fix what they've done wrong. I pride myself on my management, and you can help people learn better public in such a way that doesn't make them feel bad. Furthermore, that isn't a real life example, why I don't give you some real life examples of disciplinary meetings where people got screwed, I was a union steward for years... anyway, the interaction here was not a disciplinary meeting. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:27 Maxus80 wrote: I feel the biggest problem with this whole situation is, that people believe everyone that runs a team/event is a professional. Most of the people that run the teams, or run the events (with some exceptions, especially on the event side) have never had any type of special education in the field of management. It is inevitable that situations like these will arise, and I'm happy it hasn't happened more often. A lot of these people started as, for example, youtube personalities. That does not give them special skills at management. What most of you are also forgetting, unlike a CEO of some company, these people get confronted with bucketloads of SHIT on a daily basis, given to them by this community. Granted, it's the bad apples, but it's those that you remember most. It is inevitable that, under pressure, someone will make a mistake or lash out. Would you not lash out towards people that are sending threats to your wife? Insulting your wife? You have to always keep in mind that Genna and totalbiscuit ARE MARRIED and no matter how much you turn it around, that will ALWAYS influence what happens. Everyone here is human and if TB would not take up arms for his wife, Genna, he would be a giant tard. In short, just keep in mind, not eeveryone holds a masters degree in management/marketing/whatever You make it sound like she got dead threats from Take lol. | ||
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Knuty
Germany68 Posts
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:32 Assirra wrote: You make it sound like she got dead threats from Take lol. He did make an implied “threat” of legal action after the release of the discussions about travel expenses. I have gone pretty nuts when people have done similar things to my girlfriend at her last job(which she left). The moral of the story is, don’t make passive threats to sue peoples wives or husbands | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:19 SightlessGunner wrote: I'm pissed off coz i lost too much time today reading all this bs... ATC finals start tomorrow, so any statement should be given to community. And Genna let us know what happened. Best way she could (without Dennis' help). John would do the same, also without hiding any details. Did we get any words from Take? Check ATC website. I've got a quest for you: try to find ANY info about finals as offline event or anything about Axiom not coming... Someone said that Genna's statement was "not professional". Maybe if she were just a team manager... But she was more like a mother/auntie for this guys! There are so many good and bad feelings involved... Axiom story was all bout family and that's why it is so unique! GJ Genna! Thanks for everything! and GL John! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "I sort of assumed it would all be online only until it was revealed later the would be an offline finals." Genna Bain "Assumptions. Mothers of all screw ups" John Bain Except for all the communications they DIDN'T reveal during the course of this. They didn't reveal all the private communications, just some. Selective transparency isn't "without hiding any details". | ||
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Falling
Canada11330 Posts
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tar
Germany991 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:17 BronzeKnee wrote: Give me a real life example. No theories here please. My wife and I have worked in many different industries (business, healthcare, technology, human services, charitable organizations), and private meetings are always the same (though in healthcare patient confidentiality and privacy are exceptions). Generally someone is getting screwed, and that is why it is private. Without confidentiality parties will always be (over-)thoughtful of how to word every thing they bring forward, thus hindering the flow of the negotiations. Also, think a company being really hard pressed for money at some point. In a confidential meeting they could explain their position and ask for terms considering their current financial situation. In a day to day context: If we knew all our words could be put on twitter for everyone to see at any time, I think most conversations would look a lot different | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:44 tar wrote: Without confidentiality parties will always be (over-)thoughtful of how to word every thing they bring forward, thus hindering the flow of the negotiations. Also, think a company being really hard pressed for money at some point. In a confidential meeting they could explain their position and ask for terms considering their current financial situation. In a day to day context: If we knew all our words could be put on twitter for everyone to see at any time, I think most conversations would look a lot different In theory, confidentiality is great. In practice, when it comes to businesses it is often, (not always) used to cover up for unethical, dishonest, and deceptive business practice where someone is getting screwed. Which is why I asked for a real life example. It is also not certain that what Genna did is illegal. In most countries, it is illegal to record a private conversation without the knowledge of one or both of the parties. But Genna didn't record anything, this is where it get's hairy. Take recorded it when he wrote what he wrote and sent it to Genna. It is up to a judge (at least where I live) to decide if Take had a reasonable expectation for that conversation to remain private, or he could decide that the fact that he put it down in email and sent it to her makes it something that Genna could share. If someone writes me a letter, and I share, do I get in trouble? Often not. Take would have a tough case on his hands, did he make sure no one was looking over his shoulder when he wrote it or Genna when she recieved it (if you have "private conservation" on a street corner, courts often see that as a public conversation)? Did he tell her this was private and not to be shared. Probably not, I didn't see the disclaimer in the emails she posted (yes there is a reason for that disclaimer at the end of someone emails!). Again, that is up to the judge This is why so much business is done face to face or over the phone. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Totalbiscuit @Totalbiscuit 3m @takesen I'm sorry that I lashed out at you in anger. You didn't deserve that, you do so much for the scene and I respect that massively. All right, folks, TB apologized, lets all get a beer and make plans for the Season 2 finals next week. | ||
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OsHc
15 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:19 SightlessGunner wrote: I'm pissed off coz i lost too much time today reading all this bs... ATC finals start tomorrow, so any statement should be given to community. And Genna let us know what happened. Best way she could (without Dennis' help). John would do the same, also without hiding any details. Did we get any words from Take? Check ATC website. I've got a quest for you: try to find ANY info about finals as offline event or anything about Axiom not coming... and here it is http://taketv.net/news/-12-08-13-7387 | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:53 Plansix wrote: All right, folks, TB apologized, lets all get a beer and make plans for the Season 2 finals next week. I'm not one for continuing drama, but a simple twitter apology does not make anything that the two have done over the past several days at all acceptable, neither does it bring back any credibility to Axiom's head's leadership abilities when things go wrong. One twitter apology does not a drama diffusal make. | ||
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TitusVI
Germany8319 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:59 docvoc wrote: I'm not one for continuing drama, but a simple twitter apology does not make anything that the two have done over the past several days at all acceptable, neither does it bring back any credibility to Axiom's head's leadership abilities when things go wrong. One twitter apology does not a drama diffusal make. So basically the drama and internet outrage is over when you say its over, not before? | ||
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AgentW
United States7725 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:59 docvoc wrote: I'm not one for continuing drama, but a simple twitter apology does not make anything that the two have done over the past several days at all acceptable, neither does it bring back any credibility to Axiom's head's leadership abilities when things go wrong. One twitter apology does not a drama diffusal make. Agreed, but drama diffusion is done by the community turning its back on this incident and moving on. Let's see how long that takes. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:59 docvoc wrote: I'm not one for continuing drama, but a simple twitter apology does not make anything that the two have done over the past several days at all acceptable, neither does it bring back any credibility to Axiom's head's leadership abilities when things go wrong. One twitter apology does not a drama diffusal make. You're not one for continuing drama yet you want to continue the drama. What is TB supposed to do? Cut off his ear and offer it to Take? It's way too late to resolve what the dispute was originally about, so at this point it's literally just drama. | ||
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mythandier
United States828 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:47 BronzeKnee wrote: In theory, confidentiality is great. In practice, when it comes to businesses it is often, (not always) used to cover up for unethical, dishonest, and deceptive business practice where someone is getting screwed. Which is why I asked for a real life example. It is also not certain that what Genna did is illegal. In most countries, it is illegal to record a private conversation without the knowledge of one or both of the parties. But Genna didn't record anything, this is where it get's hairy. Take recorded it when he wrote what he wrote and sent it to Genna. It is up to a judge (at least where I live) to decide if Take had a reasonable expectation for that conversation to remain private, or he could decide that the fact that he put it down in email and sent it to her makes it something that Genna could share. If someone writes me a letter, and I share, do I get in trouble? Often not. Take would have a tough case on his hands, did he make sure no one was looking over his shoulder when he wrote it or Genna when she recieved it? Probably not. Again, that is up to the judge This is why so much business is done face to face or over the phone. I can't give you a real life example...that would breach the privacy of the conversation....jk. There are countless times in my work experience where actions have been taken private -- and not to "chastise" someone as you put it. Here are a few examples within the last year where I've had 1 on 1 conversations: With Staff: - To coach someone on an area where they were falling behind metrics - To coach someone on the importance of communication (ie, if you're going to be out of office, let team know; or, if you're going to miss a deadline, send out an email letting me know it's going to be late) - To help a staff member start the process for dealing with a sexual harassment violation from a client With Clients: - To discuss the hold up on certain contract terms - To discuss certain individuals lack of cooperation with a project - To discuss ending the business relationship There are countless examples of private communication. That isn't to say that some sort of communication can't/shouldn't be made public. But it's up to both parties to agree on what that communication should be. If that's not done properly then there is a breach of trust and you potentially ruin future relationships as a result...and, if there's evidence that you breached the duty of care you could be on the hook for other repercussions. I'm not sure why you have such a view that private = "screwed over" but believe it or not, the world is not out to get you. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:53 Plansix wrote: All right, folks, TB apologized, lets all get a beer and make plans for the Season 2 finals next week. Don't forget the upcoming ATC Finals. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Fuck it, watch all the SC2. Live, on from replay, audio recording or youtube file. Forget this noise and just watch some player try to destroy eachother | ||
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:59 docvoc wrote: I'm not one for continuing drama, but a simple twitter apology does not make anything that the two have done over the past several days at all acceptable, neither does it bring back any credibility to Axiom's head's leadership abilities when things go wrong. One twitter apology does not a drama diffusal make. it doesnt, but theres nothing more to do here. just need people to get over it now and be excited for wcs | ||
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
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Ljas
Finland725 Posts
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:28 ptbl wrote: Maybe TotalBiscuit should advertise the ATC finals through his various mediums as a goodwill gesture? I know he apologized, but I bet if he does this extra thing it will seal the deal. honestly if it wasn't for this drama i bet a lot of people would have missed the atc finals >.< | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
We should all just move on instead of trying to rub it in.. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:03 AgentW wrote: Agreed, but drama diffusion is done by the community turning its back on this incident and moving on. Let's see how long that takes. It's already taken far, far too long. | ||
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:29 Ljas wrote: I still want a link to that apology tweet. On August 17 2013 03:28 ptbl wrote: Maybe TotalBiscuit should advertise the ATC finals through his various mediums as a goodwill gesture? I know he apologized, but I bet if he does this extra thing it will seal the deal. I'm sure they will be talking about it in private. | ||
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Ljas
Finland725 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:33 NovemberstOrm wrote: https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/368428123362455552 How that failed to appear in my twitter feed I'll never know. Thanks. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:34 Ljas wrote: How that failed to appear in my twitter feed I'll never know. Thanks. Unless you are following both of them, it won't show up. | ||
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Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
Good to hear TB gave his apology on his childish Tweet. Wich it simply is. I honestly can't fault Take in anything, from what i have been reading here atleast. | ||
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GunPaladin
United States1205 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:43 GunPaladin wrote: Good on TB for apologizing, hopefully he does the same for his MVP comments. Maybe now this whole ordeal can die off. I think we need a TL rule for dumb tweets. The person should have a 24 hour window to apologize before it becomes “real” drama. 36 hours if it involves family members. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:53 Plansix wrote: All right, folks, TB apologized, lets all get a beer and make plans for the Season 2 finals next week. The problem here is, for me at least him insulting is not the big issue here. They can insult each other blue on twitter for all i are. My biggest issue is the releasing of private conversations. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:48 Assirra wrote: The problem here is, for me at least him insulting is not the big issue here. They can insult each other blue on twitter for all i are. My biggest issue is the releasing of private conversations. There was nothing bad enough to really change anything in the discussions and they can settle that in private. We, as a community, do not need to be involved with that. | ||
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zanga
659 Posts
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote: There was nothing bad enough to really change anything in the discussions and they can settle that in private. We, as a community, do not need to be involved with that. Who talks about getting involved? And please stop talking we are all some hivemind. People can think of stuff however they dam well please no matter what "we as a community" should do as you say. | ||
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Falling
Canada11330 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:45 Plansix wrote: I think we need a TL rule for dumb tweets. The person should have a 24 hour window to apologize before it becomes “real” drama. 36 hours if it involves family members. I think it was Shamus Young podcast (the Diecast) I was listening to where they weighed into the whole Phil Fish controversy. Part of the nature of modern video games is the immediacy of everything. Under the old industry, you would have a buffer system between yourself and the audience/ consumers. So then there would be a delay in which prepared statements could be made and everything is a lot less dramatic. Now there is immediate and direct access. Which can be really cool. You get direct communication with those creating stuff. But it can also be really raw and messy because fewer things get filtered or allowed to percolate until emotions can cool off and a more reasonable, but still truthful statement can be made. So yes, we probably will continue to see 'action or statement' followed by 'e-drama' followed by 'retraction and more e-drama.' It's more direct, personal, and it happens much quicker and can flare up bigger. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:55 Assirra wrote: Who talks about getting involved? And please stop talking we are all some hivemind. People can think of stuff however they dam well please no matter what "we as a community" should do as you say. I’m sorry, I wasn’t trying to make decisions for you. What I meant was, I feel the apologize is sufficient for this time and I also feel that your other objections are valid. However, I feel that the community shouldn’t be involved with that because I feel that it is best handled in private. I do not represent the feelings of the community in this matter and I am only stating my own opinions. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:35 Knuty wrote: Holy shit ,people are such assholes out for drama when being anonymous..... People can be pussies, dicks and assholes in real life too bud. It's not just the internet lol and when it comes down to business. You need to have a cut throat mentality as well. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:56 Falling wrote: I think it was Shamus Young podcast (the Diecast) I was listening to where they weighed into the whole Phil Fish controversy. Part of the nature of modern video games is the immediacy of everything. Under the old industry, you would have a buffer system between yourself and the audience/ consumers. So then there would be a delay in which prepared statements could be made and everything is a lot less dramatic. Now there is immediate and direct access. Which can be really cool. You get direct communication with those creating stuff. But it can also be really raw and messy because fewer things get filtered or allowed to percolate until emotions can cool off and a more reasonable, but still truthful statement can be made. So yes, we probably will continue to see 'action or statement' followed by 'e-drama' followed by 'retraction and more e-drama.' It's more direct, personal, and it happens much quicker and can flare up bigger. Giant Bomb had a similar discussion when it come to the Microsoft press conference and all the twitter buzz around that. They pointed out that all the Twitter buzz was just a bunch of people posting the first thing that came to their mind when they saw the press conference, based on limited information. Due to it being a first impression on limited, to zero information, the tweets were basically worthless for anyone attempting to make an informed decision. Yet the next day, people were reporting on the negative twitter buzz surrounding the conference. At the end of the day, I don’t really take twitter seriously and I don’t think anyone should. It is instant access to a person’s thoughts without much filter and I hope people use it more responsibility in the future. | ||
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tar
Germany991 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:47 BronzeKnee wrote: In theory, confidentiality is great. In practice, when it comes to businesses it is often, (not always) used to cover up for unethical, dishonest, and deceptive business practice where someone is getting screwed. Which is why I asked for a real life example. It is also not certain that what Genna did is illegal. In most countries, it is illegal to record a private conversation without the knowledge of one or both of the parties. But Genna didn't record anything, this is where it get's hairy. Take recorded it when he wrote what he wrote and sent it to Genna. It is up to a judge (at least where I live) to decide if Take had a reasonable expectation for that conversation to remain private, or he could decide that the fact that he put it down in email and sent it to her makes it something that Genna could share. If someone writes me a letter, and I share, do I get in trouble? Often not. Take would have a tough case on his hands, did he make sure no one was looking over his shoulder when he wrote it or Genna when she recieved it (if you have "private conservation" on a street corner, courts often see that as a public conversation)? Did he tell her this was private and not to be shared. Probably not, I didn't see the disclaimer in the emails she posted (yes there is a reason for that disclaimer at the end of someone emails!). Again, that is up to the judge This is why so much business is done face to face or over the phone. We really shouldn't go into legal details here, especially since German law and US law differ quite a bit. It simply is not good practice to publish a conversation without the approval of the other party. Wether or not it is also illegal, depends on the law applied as well as the particular circumstances of the case. Confidentiality can be abused but that doesn't invalidate the concept. Otherwise all privacy and thus civil liberties would be challenged. edit: typos & ps PS: thumbs up for TB's apology. | ||
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negativedge
4279 Posts
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leandroqm
Netherlands874 Posts
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On August 17 2013 04:54 negativedge wrote: anyone want to summarize what I'm sure is mounds of bullshit drama over the proceeding 19 pages? sure. Axiom not going to make finals. Genna Bain explains in lengthy blog why they werent going to make finals. Most important issue was that Genna thought they were getting a travel stipend to cover team, but they were only getting a $1,500 stipend, which was way too low. Questionable whose fault it was. In discussing the issue, Genna cites private emails between her and TaKe. TaKe takes offense to his private emails getting disclosed. Says he hopes there is some law to punish her. Genna makes second blog announcing her retirement. Too much stress; too much bad shit going on in scene (allegedly); and TaKe's "legal threat" is the straw the broke the camel's back. TB - "Fuck TaKe" on tl.net, reddit, twitter, etc. (i can only verify tl.net though). TaKe reads Genna's second blog and apologize and wants to make shit better (for the most part, also throws blame at Genna). TB - apologizes to TaKe via twitter. hugs, kisses, everything is alright with the world--not really, community uproar, we still are losing Genna (sad face), TB burned many bridges, Axiom is probably gonna get a lot of backlash, TaKe may take some backlash as well. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Littlesheep
Canada217 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:55 Assirra wrote: Who talks about getting involved? And please stop talking we are all some hivemind. People can think of stuff however they dam well please no matter what "we as a community" should do as you say. Please ignore Plansix, he does this in every thread. I think he has a learning disability. He somehow learned to post on threads before he learned how to read. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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MarklarMarklarr
Fiji226 Posts
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Taipoka
Brazil1224 Posts
On August 17 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote: Giant Bomb had a similar discussion when it come to the Microsoft press conference and all the twitter buzz around that. They pointed out that all the Twitter buzz was just a bunch of people posting the first thing that came to their mind when they saw the press conference, based on limited information. Due to it being a first impression on limited, to zero information, the tweets were basically worthless for anyone attempting to make an informed decision. Yet the next day, people were reporting on the negative twitter buzz surrounding the conference. At the end of the day, I don’t really take twitter seriously and I don’t think anyone should. It is instant access to a person’s thoughts without much filter and I hope people use it more responsibility in the future. Maybe one question is: Why did people need to post everything in their minds and about their lifes on twitter, facebook, etc? | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16648 Posts
On August 17 2013 04:59 dAPhREAk wrote: sure. Axiom not going to make finals. Genna Bain explains in lengthy blog why they werent going to make finals. Most important issue was that Genna thought they were getting a travel stipend to cover team, but they were only getting a $1,500 stipend, which was way too low. Questionable whose fault it was. In discussing the issue, Genna cites private emails between her and TaKe. TaKe takes offense to his private emails getting disclosed. Says he hopes there is some law to punish her. Genna makes second blog announcing her retirement. Too much stress; too much bad shit going on in scene (allegedly); and TaKe's "legal threat" is the straw the broke the camel's back. TB - "Fuck TaKe" on tl.net, reddit, twitter, etc. (i can only verify tl.net though). TaKe reads Genna's second blog and apologize and wants to make shit better (for the most part, also throws blame at Genna). TB - apologizes to TaKe via twitter. hugs, kisses, everything is alright with the world--not really, community uproar, we still are losing Genna (sad face), TB burned many bridges, Axiom is probably gonna get a lot of backlash, TaKe may take some backlash as well. thanks for the summary. it might even be good to put this at the top of a thread where the entire issue "from beginning to end" can be discussed. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 05:08 Taipoka wrote: Maybe one question is: Why did people need to post everything in their minds and about their lifes on twitter, facebook, etc? I don’t do it, but some people are very funny on twitter. I think it is a good tool, but it has the problem with any open facing system, that people can spam you. The only difference with twitter is that people can spam you with hate and they only you will see it. Even if you ban someone from twitter, they can make a new account in a minute and continue to harass you. Twitter can be fun, but it has a dark side that people are slowly realizing exists. We just had a story about a guy who works on CoD getting death threats over a balance change, I believe through twitter. Twitter is a tool people have to learn how to use and how not to use it. Right now, we are in a weird place were we might have to easy access to people. | ||
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johnny123
521 Posts
Not even a year . GG | ||
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Myt
Germany318 Posts
On August 17 2013 04:59 dAPhREAk wrote: sure. Axiom not going to make finals. Genna Bain explains in lengthy blog why they werent going to make finals. Most important issue was that Genna thought they were getting a travel stipend to cover team, but they were only getting a $1,500 stipend, which was way too low. Questionable whose fault it was. In discussing the issue, Genna cites private emails between her and TaKe. TaKe takes offense to his private emails getting disclosed. Says he hopes there is some law to punish her. Genna makes second blog announcing her retirement. Too much stress; too much bad shit going on in scene (allegedly); and TaKe's "legal threat" is the straw the broke the camel's back. TB - "Fuck TaKe" on tl.net, reddit, twitter, etc. (i can only verify tl.net though). TaKe reads Genna's second blog and apologize and wants to make shit better (for the most part, also throws blame at Genna). TB - apologizes to TaKe via twitter. hugs, kisses, everything is alright with the world--not really, community uproar, we still are losing Genna (sad face), TB burned many bridges, Axiom is probably gonna get a lot of backlash, TaKe may take some backlash as well. This is a fair assesment of the situation but i think most people forget the 3. party involved - Acer. I assume they are pretty pissed that their name got sucked in this hole thing and I'm curious if they are willing to sponsor a second season. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On August 17 2013 05:25 Myt wrote: This is a fair assesment of the situation but i think most people forget the 3. party involved - Acer. I assume they are pretty pissed that their name got sucked in this hole thing and I'm curious if they are willing to sponsor a second season. according to TB, acer was cool with them and there weren't any problems. he may have referred to Team Acer, so I am not sure if that is an important distinction. | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On August 17 2013 05:03 Littlesheep wrote: Please ignore Plansix, he does this in every thread. I think he has a learning disability. He somehow learned to post on threads before he learned how to read. User was temp banned for this post. Plansix has an allergy to strong opinions. He shows up in every thread to write supportive statements for tournament organizers, Blizzard & random corporations, to tell us how they really are trying their best and we should calm down. Some people find this annoying and patronizing. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
On August 17 2013 06:01 Grumbels wrote: Plansix has an allergy to strong opinions. He shows up in every thread to write supportive statements for tournament organizers, Blizzard & random corporations, to tell us how they really are trying their best and we should calm down. Some people find this annoying and patronizing.supportive statements are killing ESPORTS | ||
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
On August 17 2013 05:41 Jaaaaasper wrote: How many more bridges does tb have left to burn? Every time some kind of drama comes up involving him he winds up making himself look bad in some way. I like some of his content, but hes really not a very likeable person or a good representative to potential sponsors His immediate feelings got the better of him, but he has strong fealings for his family and his close friendy. Don't you have personns that you will immediatly defend when somebody attacks them, even verbally? He made mistakes but he was man enough to realize what he did, sort out the situation and apologize. Both parties resolved the situation in a professional manner in the end. I am willing to not hold this against them. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On August 17 2013 06:14 monkybone wrote: you'd think a man at his age, experience and position would take the time to calm down before splurting out his emotional and potentially misinformed opinion on the internet? I'm also kind of surprised that no one seems particularly interested in the fact that private and assumed confidential conversations were posted on the internet? Especially in this kind of situation. It's hopelessly unprofessional, and shows a profound lack of trustworthiness. genna's blog is chockful of people expressing their outrage at private conversations being disclosed--especially germans because i guess germans have stronger privacy laws than other countries. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On August 17 2013 06:21 monkybone wrote: It's quite a horrific thing to do in my opinion too, perhaps it's a european thing. i dont know why people think its a solely european thing. im american and i think its unprofessional to release private business emails/conversations. just because the NSA spies on us doesnt mean we like it, damnit!!!! | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 06:01 Grumbels wrote: Plansix has an allergy to strong opinions. He shows up in every thread to write supportive statements for tournament organizers, Blizzard & random corporations, to tell us how they really are trying their best and we should calm down. Some people find this annoying and patronizing.Well its not ment to be, but you can be annoyed by it if you want. I just think people should take a deep breath and remember, "Yo, its video games, we all need to calm down and have fun". | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
On August 17 2013 06:01 Grumbels wrote: Plansix has an allergy to strong opinions. He shows up in every thread to write supportive statements for tournament organizers, Blizzard & random corporations, to tell us how they really are trying their best and we should calm down. Some people find this annoying and patronizing.Probably because it is annoying and patronizing; but there is hope he slows down when he reached 10k posts? | ||
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JimSocks
United States968 Posts
Google just said gmail is not private. USA! USA! | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
On August 17 2013 06:12 Sandermatt wrote: His immediate feelings got the better of him, but he has strong fealings for his family and his close friendy. Don't you have personns that you will immediatly defend when somebody attacks them, even verbally? He made mistakes but he was man enough to realize what he did, sort out the situation and apologize. Both parties resolved the situation in a professional manner in the end. I am willing to not hold this against them. And if this was the first time something like this happened I would agree. The problem is that this happens something like every other month with tb taking something way to far and making himself look bad, and as he has shifted over into management instead of sponsoring, these things are going to be directly held against not just him but his team. He has every right to defend his family, but the was he went about it this time was horribly wrong. I just hope he stops over reacting/ turning off his filter at the worst time before it directly hurts axiom, assuming this time didn't do just that. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 17 2013 06:40 grs wrote: Probably because it is annoying and patronizing; but there is hope he slows down when he reached 10k posts? Unlikely, but it's ok, I'm sure you will find reasons to be outraged despite my efforts. | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
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pieroog
Poland146 Posts
After watching state of the game with Genna, I have grown up a big respect to that lady. And she had already mentioned bullshit behind WCS and SC2 scene during that episode! If we want SC2 to grow - we need more transparent folks like Genna, and we do need to get our shit together, no matter who's right in this dispute (imho everyone loses here). So sad to see her gone | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
I support this statement. I also support Plansix in his ever so slightly patronizing quest to better the community and to contribute to rationality in discussions. | ||
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Strela
Netherlands1896 Posts
On August 16 2013 21:11 n0ave wrote: Managing Sc2 pro teams isn't providing sufficient financial gains at the moment. I hope TB will drop his Sc2 pro team and start focus on creating more Youtube content, I enjoy his "WTF is..." videos. TB is not the person that can get hooked only on one game, he isn't a hardcore Sc2 fan. And I understand that, I used to enjoy this game, 2 years ago Sc2 was the only game I had installed and played ( a lot), but now... I haven't started it in months and I find Sc2 streams boring. Good choice by the Bains to step away from Sc2. Everybody feels that Sc2 is going downhill... and yes it's true. You want him to go to dota2. | ||
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SilverStar
Sweden18511 Posts
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
I want him far away from games I actually like. He can take his talents to smite or world of tanks, since he already burned his bridges in lol. | ||
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OPL3SA2
United States378 Posts
league of legends and other moba games are similar to going out drinking with your friends at a bar. Listen, everyone's doing it, and it's a hell of a lot of fun. There's very little committment, very little to learn, and you just relax and have fun. Don't you know how to have fun? If something goes wrong, you're not held liable whatsoever. I met one person who apologized in a moba game and I wrote down his name. I have it here somewhere. Starcraft is more like going to a lending library. You gotta study and ultimately the goal is to improve yourself, both in the game itself and in your reactions to your own success and failures in the face of competition. This is not fun. People who play starcraft don't play it for fun. They play it to improve. Improving is fun. Winning close games is fun. If you pause a game in league of legends, the other team wants to unpause immediately and there is a restriction in game setup to do so. League of Legends players ultimately wouldn't mind playing against an AFK team. Think about the last time you unpaused a game without your opponent's consent, and you begin to get the picture of what's going on in these two subcultures. So when people like the one above me talking about how Starcraft 2 is dying, it's almost not really even a discussion because it's about as alive and kicking as the educational system in this country, which is to say two things. One is "did it ever really exist?" And two: it will continue in more or less it's present form until the end of time. I don't care how many times you coax your braniac friend to go to the bar, he's not going to have a good time. And people who like to wallow in a bar will not be convinced to embark upon a journey to challenge themselves or improve themselves in any regard. This might sound like a scathing critique of moba games, but it is all 100% entirely true, and truth be told for well rounded individuals such as myself there's room for both a pub as well as a lending library. But I can recognize a poindexter when I meet one. and I can certainly recognize a drunk as well. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Falling
Canada11330 Posts
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negativedge
4279 Posts
On August 17 2013 04:59 dAPhREAk wrote: sure. Axiom not going to make finals. Genna Bain explains in lengthy blog why they werent going to make finals. Most important issue was that Genna thought they were getting a travel stipend to cover team, but they were only getting a $1,500 stipend, which was way too low. Questionable whose fault it was. In discussing the issue, Genna cites private emails between her and TaKe. TaKe takes offense to his private emails getting disclosed. Says he hopes there is some law to punish her. Genna makes second blog announcing her retirement. Too much stress; too much bad shit going on in scene (allegedly); and TaKe's "legal threat" is the straw the broke the camel's back. TB - "Fuck TaKe" on tl.net, reddit, twitter, etc. (i can only verify tl.net though). TaKe reads Genna's second blog and apologize and wants to make shit better (for the most part, also throws blame at Genna). TB - apologizes to TaKe via twitter. hugs, kisses, everything is alright with the world--not really, community uproar, we still are losing Genna (sad face), TB burned many bridges, Axiom is probably gonna get a lot of backlash, TaKe may take some backlash as well. well that sucks not really the time to have two high profile and important community members shitting on each other like that | ||
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MoonfireSpam
United Kingdom1153 Posts
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On August 17 2013 09:21 OPL3SA2 wrote: league of legends and other moba games are similar to going out drinking with your friends at a bar. Listen, everyone's doing it, and it's a hell of a lot of fun. There's very little committment, very little to learn, and you just relax and have fun. Don't you know how to have fun? If something goes wrong, you're not held liable whatsoever. I met one person who apologized in a moba game and I wrote down his name. I have it here somewhere. Starcraft is more like going to a lending library. You gotta study and ultimately the goal is to improve yourself, both in the game itself and in your reactions to your own success and failures in the face of competition. This is not fun. People who play starcraft don't play it for fun. They play it to improve. Improving is fun. Winning close games is fun. If you pause a game in league of legends, the other team wants to unpause immediately and there is a restriction in game setup to do so. League of Legends players ultimately wouldn't mind playing against an AFK team. Think about the last time you unpaused a game without your opponent's consent, and you begin to get the picture of what's going on in these two subcultures. So when people like the one above me talking about how Starcraft 2 is dying, it's almost not really even a discussion because it's about as alive and kicking as the educational system in this country, which is to say two things. One is "did it ever really exist?" And two: it will continue in more or less it's present form until the end of time. I don't care how many times you coax your braniac friend to go to the bar, he's not going to have a good time. And people who like to wallow in a bar will not be convinced to embark upon a journey to challenge themselves or improve themselves in any regard. This might sound like a scathing critique of moba games, but it is all 100% entirely true, and truth be told for well rounded individuals such as myself there's room for both a pub as well as a lending library. But I can recognize a poindexter when I meet one. and I can certainly recognize a drunk as well. Exceedingly poor comparisons and all kinds of outright falsities regarding Dota. "Very little to learn?" Are you joking? I'm a sc2 player and I think that statement is ridiculous. | ||
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ETisME
12345 Posts
On August 17 2013 04:59 dAPhREAk wrote: sure. Axiom not going to make finals. Genna Bain explains in lengthy blog why they werent going to make finals. Most important issue was that Genna thought they were getting a travel stipend to cover team, but they were only getting a $1,500 stipend, which was way too low. Questionable whose fault it was. In discussing the issue, Genna cites private emails between her and TaKe. TaKe takes offense to his private emails getting disclosed. Says he hopes there is some law to punish her. Genna makes second blog announcing her retirement. Too much stress; too much bad shit going on in scene (allegedly); and TaKe's "legal threat" is the straw the broke the camel's back. TB - "Fuck TaKe" on tl.net, reddit, twitter, etc. (i can only verify tl.net though). TaKe reads Genna's second blog and apologize and wants to make shit better (for the most part, also throws blame at Genna). TB - apologizes to TaKe via twitter. hugs, kisses, everything is alright with the world--not really, community uproar, we still are losing Genna (sad face), TB burned many bridges, Axiom is probably gonna get a lot of backlash, TaKe may take some backlash as well. you forgot Genna retirement blog also private chat log about Take angry at the private conversation | ||
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gosubay
Singapore13 Posts
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Entirety
1423 Posts
On August 17 2013 04:59 dAPhREAk wrote: sure. Axiom not going to make finals. Genna Bain explains in lengthy blog why they werent going to make finals. Most important issue was that Genna thought they were getting a travel stipend to cover team, but they were only getting a $1,500 stipend, which was way too low. Questionable whose fault it was. In discussing the issue, Genna cites private emails between her and TaKe. TaKe takes offense to his private emails getting disclosed. Says he hopes there is some law to punish her. Genna makes second blog announcing her retirement. Too much stress; too much bad shit going on in scene (allegedly); and TaKe's "legal threat" is the straw the broke the camel's back. TB - "Fuck TaKe" on tl.net, reddit, twitter, etc. (i can only verify tl.net though). TaKe reads Genna's second blog and apologize and wants to make shit better (for the most part, also throws blame at Genna). TB - apologizes to TaKe via twitter. hugs, kisses, everything is alright with the world--not really, community uproar, we still are losing Genna (sad face), TB burned many bridges, Axiom is probably gonna get a lot of backlash, TaKe may take some backlash as well. Good summary, but you left out some stuff from Take's statement. In particular, Take alleges that Axiom neglected ATC (Genna didn't respond to any of Take's emails) which meant that none of Axiom's games were played and they had to be cast from replays. Thus, Take saw it as Axiom simply not caring about the team league, but Take did try to offer some assistance to Axiom (too little too late). It also clears up Acer's duties to ATC. Notably, Take states that season 1 was sort of an experiment and that they did not plan the travel costs fully (which is why when Liquid approached Take actively, Take helped them out). Apparently, season 2 will be handled better (perhaps the teams WILL get paid flights or at least, heavy stipends). Take's statement was definitely the more conciliatory one. | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
I (sometimes) like TB content on youtube and he does gradually less because he is trying to spread himself between gaming journalism and "E-sport personality". It's not that I don't like Axiom, but in the end they get their pay from his youtube channel, if TB losses viewer he won't be able to pay Axiom anyway. | ||
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Strela
Netherlands1896 Posts
On August 17 2013 09:15 SilverStar wrote: It's funny how quickly people lose interest in something if there is actual work to be done. Heh. It's funny how easy it is to judge from the sideline. Heh. | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
Revealing the content of your own conversations is up to you, you dont need permission from anyone. She is not a reporter revealing a source, she was not revealing the content of a conversation held between two other people and was not revelaing the content of mail (snail or electronic) that did not belong to her. Therefore she did nothing wrong. She was attempting to shed light on a situation, which is always how TB and Genna do things... open and honest. | ||
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Timerly
Germany511 Posts
On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote: I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. Besides If I have a conversaion with someone, i can reveal it to whomever i choose.... there was no NDA signed, no one needed code word clearance, if you didn't want the content revealed, verbatim, then hold the conversation in person and check them for recording devices....... sound ridiculous? Yup.... just as ridiculous as "hoping" legal action can be taken against someone for revealing a skype converation. Revealing the content of your own conversations is up to you, you dont need permission from anyone. She is not a reporter revealing a source, she was not revealing the content of a conversation held between two other people and was not revelaing the content of mail (snail or electronic) that did not belong to her. Therefore she did nothing wrong. She was attempting to shed light on a situation, which is always how TB and Genna do things... open and honest. You're thinking of private people. Businesses have their own code of conduct and nobody will do business with a company revealing everything that wasn't put under NDA as they please. You think this leaves Axiom unharmed? There's no way people will have "fast and easy" business with them now. It's going to be NDA, embargo, faxes, etc. if at all. Will somebody in e-sports be too naive to do all that? Probably. It's not a good choice though given what came of this. Maybe they didn't mean to do something wrong but they still messed up. | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote: I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. Besides If I have a conversaion with someone, i can reveal it to whomever i choose.... there was no NDA signed, no one needed code word clearance, if you didn't want the content revealed, verbatim, then hold the conversation in person and check them for recording devices....... sound ridiculous? Yup.... just as ridiculous as "hoping" legal action can be taken against someone for revealing a skype converation. Revealing the content of your own conversations is up to you, you dont need permission from anyone. She is not a reporter revealing a source, she was not revealing the content of a conversation held between two other people and was not revelaing the content of mail (snail or electronic) that did not belong to her. Therefore she did nothing wrong. She was attempting to shed light on a situation, which is always how TB and Genna do things... open and honest. What are you talking about? Of course you usually can and should expect a certain level of confidentiality in correspondence between businesses. It might not be illegal to publish such (and important or secret information will be put under NDA), but it is extremely bad practice to publish without consent and certainly indicates a breach of trust to the business partner that gets compromised in this fashion. Usually you see stuff like this only when two companies are already in dirt flinging mode. If one of our business partner would behave in such manner, all relationships with him would be put on ice asap. | ||
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tadL
Croatia679 Posts
With TB to EU and there she will get the help she needs even if she is not a billionaire. Gl in the future | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote: I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. Besides If I have a conversaion with someone, i can reveal it to whomever i choose.... there was no NDA signed, no one needed code word clearance, if you didn't want the content revealed, verbatim, then hold the conversation in person and check them for recording devices....... sound ridiculous? Yup.... just as ridiculous as "hoping" legal action can be taken against someone for revealing a skype converation. Revealing the content of your own conversations is up to you, you dont need permission from anyone. She is not a reporter revealing a source, she was not revealing the content of a conversation held between two other people and was not revelaing the content of mail (snail or electronic) that did not belong to her. Therefore she did nothing wrong. She was attempting to shed light on a situation, which is always how TB and Genna do things... open and honest. Yes, your whole post indeed does sound ridiculous. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
I'm still wondering, how bad was Genna leaking that private conversation? To me it doesn't really seem so bad for Acer and Take overreacted to it? Ofcourse a stupid thing by Genna, but tbh not sure what the big deal is(except Take feeling maybe a bit betrayed for private convo being leaked, but tbh he just looks great from that convo). Seems just a huge shame how things went down. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 18 2013 04:13 Timerly wrote: You're thinking of private people. Businesses have their own code of conduct and nobody will do business with a company revealing everything that wasn't put under NDA as they please. You think this leaves Axiom unharmed? There's no way people will have "fast and easy" business with them now. It's going to be NDA, embargo, faxes, etc. if at all. Will somebody in e-sports be too naive to do all that? Probably. It's not a good choice though given what came of this. Maybe they didn't mean to do something wrong but they still messed up. The easiest way to handle that is to have an NDA and avoid the whole issue. At least at that point you can claim "They signed an NDA are should not have posted this". Its not really cost effective to pursue breaches of an NDA in court, but putting it on paper makes sure everyone is on the same page. It avoids situations like this one where one side saw no problem with releasing the chat logs because there was no new information and the other side objected. | ||
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Timerly
Germany511 Posts
On August 18 2013 04:23 Zarahtra wrote: Wow Take is such a nice guy. I suppose that shouldn't be a big shock, but I never really realized how nice he was. I'm still wondering, how bad was Genna leaking that private conversation? To me it doesn't really seem so bad for Acer and Take overreacted to it? Ofcourse a stupid thing by Genna, but tbh not sure what the big deal is(except Take feeling maybe a bit betrayed for private convo being leaked, but tbh he just looks great from that convo). Seems just a huge shame how things went down. The problem for Take is that she revealed business between Take and Acer which he disclosed to her when trying to figure stuff out amicably. Now Acer obviously can't expect 100% confidentiality in any communication between Take and them because he might have to share some of it with other businesses (this is a common problem). The chain reaction could hurt his ability to make quick decisions and find solutions with Acer which obviously becomes a big deal. He will lose his abillity to communicate anything he agreed on with Acer to anybody else because they will ask him not to and that makes things even more complicated. She damaged relations between Acer and Take because she just didn't think about what her actions would mean to other parties so yeah, I get him being mad. All that being said, it takes a lot to get a rise out of Take. On August 18 2013 04:30 Plansix wrote: The easiest way to handle that is to have an NDA and avoid the whole issue. At least at that point you can claim "They signed an NDA are should not have posted this". Its not really cost effective to pursue breaches of an NDA in court, but putting it on paper makes sure everyone is on the same page. It avoids situations like this one where one side saw no problem with releasing the chat logs because there was no new information and the other side objected. True but it's also slow and irrational if you aren't prepared to follow through with pursuing it. So even if she had breached an NDA it wouldn't have changed anything besides telling her "don't reveal this" which is already completely common business everywhere. If I'd had to set up an NDA for every b2b interaction I've had I would have gone mad on day three. | ||
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GreyKnight
United States4720 Posts
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Asymmetric
Scotland1309 Posts
I don't see how else he can keep up with his workload while also managing axiom. | ||
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Broodwurst
Germany1586 Posts
On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote: I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. Welcome to germany where you can get sued for posting a private written conversation. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote: I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. Besides If I have a conversaion with someone, i can reveal it to whomever i choose.... there was no NDA signed, no one needed code word clearance, if you didn't want the content revealed, verbatim, then hold the conversation in person and check them for recording devices....... sound ridiculous? Yup.... just as ridiculous as "hoping" legal action can be taken against someone for revealing a skype converation. Revealing the content of your own conversations is up to you, you dont need permission from anyone. She is not a reporter revealing a source, she was not revealing the content of a conversation held between two other people and was not revelaing the content of mail (snail or electronic) that did not belong to her. Therefore she did nothing wrong. She was attempting to shed light on a situation, which is always how TB and Genna do things... open and honest. You can do whatever you want. Just don't expect people to want to deal with you in the future if you do, simple as. I would assume you may not have held a job where you deal with lots of emails on a daily basis, because most people who do would understand that typically people in business dealings have some expectation of privacy when it comes to their emails. Maybe you will share it with other people in your company/business, but not with the whole world. Also, she was not "open and honest" because she shared a selection of emails/conversations, and not all of them. She was as open and honest as she chose to be to support her perspective, which is inherently biased because she is one party involved in the dispute who has her own interpretation of events. Selectively revealing things to be "open and honest" isn't really "open and honest". Also, Take/people working from the competition's perspective wrote many of the emails. The belong to him, and not to her. Just because he sent the emails to her doesn't mean she somehow gains ownership over the content. Also, you cannot legally record conversations in some places, either in person or phone conversations. And you certainly can't then publicly reveal those conversations which you illegally recorded. Because yes, legal action can sometimes be taken where things have been done which are illegal, which some things are in some jurisdictions. When it comes to emails/textual Skype conversations, who knows. I wonder if it's been tested in courts. | ||
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Prog455
Denmark970 Posts
On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote: I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. If a European government was to look in a private e-mail conversation it would be a violation of the European Convention on Human Rights article 8. | ||
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TigerKarl
1757 Posts
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pigmanbear
Angola2010 Posts
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
On August 18 2013 05:28 GreyKnight wrote: Showing parts of a conversation that are selectively chosen is not transparency. I noticed people praising axiom for always doing this. You want to be transparent? Show all the logs. Otherwise you are just making yourself look better. The parts that she revealed were to make Take and Acer look good. The logs she showed in her original post weren't used in a way to make Axiom look better. Go read the posts again. | ||
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Cokefreak
Finland8095 Posts
On August 18 2013 06:37 pigmanbear wrote: I can't believe TakeTV got so many viewers after this crapstorm. I can't believe people are still trying to stir shit up when it will only further hurt everyone involved. | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
On August 18 2013 06:08 Prog455 wrote: If a European government was to look in a private e-mail conversation it would be a violation of the European Convention on Human Rights article 8. And France at least has been proven to do so already. Those laws are ignored by everyone in the name of "fighting terrorism". But this is different, and has damaged Axiom and Take's brand. This is one of the worst business related scandals in esports ever, and the resulting effects may be far wider spread than the public will ever know. | ||
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Yoshinaka
New Zealand50 Posts
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Prog455
Denmark970 Posts
On August 18 2013 07:10 Jaaaaasper wrote: And France at least has been proven to do so already. Those laws are ignored by everyone in the name of "fighting terrorism". But this is different, and has damaged Axiom and Take's brand. This is one of the worst business related scandals in esports ever, and the resulting effects may be far wider spread than the public will ever know. The fact that anti-terror laws has turned out to be a major loophole in regards to human rights does not change the fact that Europeans does indeed consider written communiction as something private. The point of my post was not to say that Genna did something illegal, it was merely an attempt to explain why Take reacted strongly to her way of doing business. And in regards to this being one of the worst business related scandals in the history of eSports. Well let me just say that i am happy to hear that we up until this point have all been one happy family. This "scandal" has been blown out of proportions because Genna was stupid enough to announce her departure from Axiom in the same thread as explaining what had happened between Axiom and Take, and because TB lost his temper in the TL thread. Sadly it turns out that Axioms way of being professional happens to induce more drama than it prevents. Honestly - this whole "scandal" is a storm in a teacup if i ever saw one. | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
Well I think that he could easily be a good manager, but he already has SO many responsibilities | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
On August 18 2013 07:38 Prog455 wrote: The fact that anti-terror laws has turned out to be a major loophole in regards to human rights does not change the fact that Europeans does indeed consider written communiction as something private. The point of my post was not to say that Genna did something illegal, it was merely an attempt to explain why Take reacted strongly to her way of doing business. And in regards to this being one of the worst business related scandals in the history of eSports. Well let me just say that i am happy to hear that we up until this point have all been one happy family. This "scandal" has been blown out of proportions because Genna was stupid enough to announce her departure from Axiom in the same thread as explaining what had happened between Axiom and Take, and because TB lost his temper in the TL thread. Sadly it turns out that Axioms way of being professional happens to induce more drama than it prevents. Honestly - this whole "scandal" is a storm in a teacup if i ever saw one. The scandal is the leaking of private conversations, which will directly hurt takes connection with acer, who is one of the few big name sponsors still investing in a big name team and backing tournaments. That kind of break of trust can and will not be ignored by sponsors, and does far more damage long term that any one of tb's insert foot directly into mouth moments. If tournament organizers and sponsors can't trust that private communication stays private, then they will cut back on interaction with team organizers and their monetary involvement. Business' will not risk private information that may affect their business being leaked via esports, and neither will tournament sponsors. Its just bad for business. | ||
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Prog455
Denmark970 Posts
On August 18 2013 07:47 Jaaaaasper wrote: The scandal is the leaking of private conversations, which will directly hurt takes connection with acer, who is one of the few big name sponsors still investing in a big name team and backing tournaments. That kind of break of trust can and will not be ignored by sponsors, and does far more damage long term that any one of tb's insert foot directly into mouth moments. If tournament organizers and sponsors can't trust that private communication stays private, then they will cut back on interaction with team organizers and their monetary involvement. Business' will not risk private information that may affect their business being leaked via esports, and neither will tournament sponsors. Its just bad for business. This is not about whether organizers and sponsors in general can trust their private conversations to stay private. This is about Axiom dropping the ball. This is a stand alone case where Axiom dropped the ball because they wanted to do things in a different way compared to other team owners, organizers etc. Right from the start when Genna and TB formed Axiom they announced that they were going to keep things public. This is not how people in general does business, but solely how TB and Genna decided to run their team. | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
On August 18 2013 08:02 Prog455 wrote: This is not about whether organizers and sponsors in general can trust their private conversations to stay private. This is about Axiom dropping the ball. This is a stand alone case where Axiom dropped the ball because they wanted to do things in a different way compared to other team owners, organizers etc. Right from the start when Genna and TB formed Axiom they announced that they were going to keep things public. This is not how people in general does business, but solely how TB and Genna decided to run their team. At the very least this is going negativity effect axiom with sponsors and tourney organizers, and the backlash might reach out to take and acer. This is the kind of scandal that kills teams with potential sponsors, and makes other sponsors wary of anything to do with all involved. Axiom may be down to just total biscuits you tube money when the fallout ends. And ever in keeping it open, that goes way to far. If this even starts to look like a trend people will drop anything to do with the bains like a hot potato. That is not how you run a business. | ||
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On August 18 2013 07:22 Yoshinaka wrote: sadly.. the decline this game is in, shes one of many to come That has nothing to do with why she left. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 18 2013 08:58 NovemberstOrm wrote: That has nothing to do with why she left. Reality is tough for most people. They see what they want. | ||
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lessQQmorePEWPEW
Jamaica921 Posts
Shit like this is embarrassing and should not be debated over like it matters. | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
On August 18 2013 09:12 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote: Mo drama for y'all, seems like the sc2 lives and breathes for this shit. Ignore this petulant behavior and send a message to all these drama queens that y'all don't give a fuck. Shit like this is embarrassing and should not be debated over like it matters. But this does matter. Axiom just screwed over take and acer, and doing so proboly cost themselves sponsors and may have damaged the whole scene. This isn't just about total biscut snapping at someone over twitter or team liquid, this is a matter of leaking private business conversations, which is not something to be taken lightly. This is one of the few examples of drama that actually matter. This one is going to have lasting implications for at least axiom, if not for take and acer as well. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 18 2013 09:20 Jaaaaasper wrote: But this does matter. Axiom just screwed over take and acer, and doing so proboly cost themselves sponsors and may have damaged the whole scene. This isn't just about total biscut snapping at someone over twitter or team liquid, this is a matter of leaking private business conversations, which is not something to be taken lightly. This is one of the few examples of drama that actually matter. This one is going to have lasting implications for at least axiom, if not for take and acer as well. From reports, Acer is fine and Amiom dropping out does not concern them. I believe this was brought up previously in the thread. Its really not that big of a deal. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
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skatblast
United States784 Posts
On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote: Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. Yeah they will be done before July next year, they dont even have enough players for team tournaments and i dont see them getting any other strong players. Maybe some of the azubu guys | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On August 18 2013 09:20 Jaaaaasper wrote: But this does matter. Axiom just screwed over take and acer, and doing so proboly cost themselves sponsors and may have damaged the whole scene. This isn't just about total biscut snapping at someone over twitter or team liquid, this is a matter of leaking private business conversations, which is not something to be taken lightly. This is one of the few examples of drama that actually matter. This one is going to have lasting implications for at least axiom, if not for take and acer as well. Or none of us know what the consequences are, because we don't have enough information. Internet arguing is fun though so carry on everyone. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On August 18 2013 10:35 skatblast wrote: i dont see them getting any other strong players. Take this guy's word for it everybody. He got a high score on his SATs. | ||
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InvictusRage
United States230 Posts
On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote: Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote: If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. What are you even talking about ? | ||
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AgentW
United States7725 Posts
Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On August 18 2013 11:08 AgentW wrote: Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital. Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ... | ||
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InvictusRage
United States230 Posts
On August 18 2013 11:12 Kaitlin wrote: Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ... I did not mean to be arguing that you were wrong. I meant to be expressing my certainty that you were wrong; I don't know that just my expression of such certainty ought to convince others. I will give you odds on a six-month bet, my $600 against your $400, if you like. I know your original prediction was for a year, but you also said much sooner was likely, and so I offer odds. (edit: this is not an argument either, this is an attempt to make money. I entirely understand if you are not as interested in this sort of thing as I am.) | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On August 18 2013 11:12 Kaitlin wrote: Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ... I wasn't aware a valid argument was required for baseless supposition. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On August 18 2013 11:17 InvictusRage wrote: I did not mean to be arguing that you were wrong. I meant to be expressing my certainty that you were wrong; I don't know that just my expression of such certainty ought to convince others. I will give you odds on a six-month bet, my $600 against your $400, if you like. I know your original prediction was for a year, but you also said much sooner was likely, and so I offer odds. (edit: this is not an argument either, this is an attempt to make money. I entirely understand if you are not as interested in this sort of thing as I am.) Nah. I'm not much of a gambler. I guess it's also why I am able to see problems in Axiom's future. Business people, while generally willing to take risks, don't tend to be quite so willing to be so fast and loose with their investments as some in this eSports community, which brings us back on topic ... | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On August 18 2013 11:17 WolfintheSheep wrote: I wasn't aware a valid argument was required for baseless supposition. I'm not sure it's such a "baseless supposition" to predict an outcome based upon demonstrated lack of business sense of the two people in charge of Axiom. | ||
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Arcanne
United States1519 Posts
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InvictusRage
United States230 Posts
On August 18 2013 11:29 Kaitlin wrote: I'm not sure it's such a "baseless supposition" to predict an outcome based upon demonstrated lack of business sense of the two people in charge of Axiom. I guess I think that even if you think this is true, that the Bains have particularly bad business sense, that they are more likely to be able to sell the team to somebody than for it to go out of business entirely. They did just jointly win third in the GSTL and finish second in the group stage of the ATC, with a pretty established foreign fanbase. The scene is in rough shape on the edges, I think, FXO NA etc, but the core is doing okay and even spreading with the recent push in other games--see Na'Vi's entry into SC2. The Na'Vi acquisition of FXO Europe is a pretty good model of the kind of thing that I am talking about, actually. They were looking to make a splash by acquiring players that already had status and fanbases, and the Axiom crew is at least as good in those areas as the Na'Vi squad. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On August 18 2013 11:29 Kaitlin wrote: I'm not sure it's such a "baseless supposition" to predict an outcome based upon demonstrated lack of business sense of the two people in charge of Axiom. Well, if you say it's a lack of business sense, I suppose your opinion is far more valid than that of two people who actually run a successful and lucrative internet business. Or, far more likely, you're severely exaggerating the consequences of this. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 18 2013 11:41 WolfintheSheep wrote: Well, if you say it's a lack of business sense, I suppose your opinion is far more valid than that of two people who actually run a successful and lucrative internet business. Or, far more likely, you're severely exaggerating the consequences of this. Exaggerating the consequences of some thing that causes internet outrage is what we do on team liquid. Especially if it is business related. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On August 18 2013 11:29 Kaitlin wrote: I'm not sure it's such a "baseless supposition" to predict an outcome based upon demonstrated lack of business sense of the two people in charge of Axiom. Or you just don't have enough information to render any sort of meaningful prediction. I mean I know you probably got a high SAT score and all but really, you don't know what you're talking about. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On August 18 2013 11:41 WolfintheSheep wrote: Well, if you say it's a lack of business sense, I suppose your opinion is far more valid than that of two people who actually run a successful and lucrative internet business. Or, far more likely, you're severely exaggerating the consequences of this. Successful and lucrative business previously run by someone who stepped down as CEO by posting in a blog on TL.net ? Pouring money earned by doing something you are good at (John's work casting and creating content) into an operation run by someone with an overall lack of business sense does not make for a successful business. /cheer them for investing in eSports, fine, but to argue that because they are dumping money into an enterprise that it is successful and lucrative is wrong. My point was that their "model" of "honesty" and "transparency" does not work with serious business people, such as sponsors. When a business makes a concession to help defray the costs for Team Liquid, it doesn't mean they wanted all the other teams, let alone the entire planet to be aware of it. Do you actually think those who didn't get the same deal as Team Liquid aren't going to be a bit sore about it ? Do you actually think that the next time Take endeavors to organize a similar tournament, those other teams aren't going to be expecting more concessions ? Her disclosure hurt her business partners and, in addition, neither of them fucking realize it was wrong. That is the problem. The disclosure isn't even a mistake in their eyes. It's their business model. Also, successful businesspeople don't fucking just give up. They learn from their mistakes and keep on trucking. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On August 18 2013 13:24 Kaitlin wrote: Successful and lucrative business previously run by someone who stepped down as CEO by posting in a blog on TL.net ? Pouring money earned by doing something you are good at (John's work casting and creating content) into an operation run by someone with an overall lack of business sense does not make for a successful business. /cheer them for investing in eSports, fine, but to argue that because they are dumping money into an enterprise that it is successful and lucrative is wrong. My point was that their "model" of "honesty" and "transparency" does not work with serious business people, such as sponsors. When a business makes a concession to help defray the costs for Team Liquid, it doesn't mean they wanted all the other teams, let alone the entire planet to be aware of it. Do you actually think those who didn't get the same deal as Team Liquid aren't going to be a bit sore about it ? Do you actually think that the next time Take endeavors to organize a similar tournament, those other teams aren't going to be expecting more concessions ? Her disclosure hurt her business partners and, in addition, neither of them fucking realize it was wrong. That is the problem. The disclosure isn't even a mistake in their eyes. It's their business model. Also, successful businesspeople don't fucking just give up. They learn from their mistakes and keep on trucking. I think you're seriously confused. Axiom is not their business, it's their side project that may become a profitable venture, but was never expected to give them a living. They already have a business that is largely successful, and it allows them to put money into passion projects like Axiom and like SHOUTcraft America. You believe your opinion has weight in this argument. It doesn't. The General Chat has hundreds of posts screaming how something is dying every single week, and they're just as baseless as yours. If you actually have some real facts and real data backing you up, by all means, show it. Until then, stop pretending that anyone should treat your opinion seriously. | ||
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dearyuna
United States322 Posts
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SixStrings
Germany2046 Posts
Then there's TB, for whom I have nothing but respect. The guy could write his own ticket in MSM, but he sticks to what he loves at personal and financial expense, puts in frightening numbers of hours of work and is generally a sick badass. Is he the eldest person in e-sports by the way? He must be in his early fourties? And still he's one of the most valuable people we have... | ||
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daders123
Sweden51 Posts
On August 18 2013 20:47 SixStrings wrote: Sick kudos towards the Baines, Genna seems to have been a force for the good of the scene, though admittedly I didn't know anything about her beforehand. Then there's TB, for whom I have nothing but respect. The guy could write his own ticket in MSM, but he sticks to what he loves at personal and financial expense, puts in frightening numbers of hours of work and is generally a sick badass. Is he the eldest person in e-sports by the way? He must be in his early fourties? And still he's one of the most valuable people we have... He was born in 1984. | ||
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SixStrings
Germany2046 Posts
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
On August 18 2013 13:42 WolfintheSheep wrote: I think you're seriously confused. Axiom is not their business, it's their side project that may become a profitable venture, but was never expected to give them a living. They already have a business that is largely successful, and it allows them to put money into passion projects like Axiom and like SHOUTcraft America. You believe your opinion has weight in this argument. It doesn't. The General Chat has hundreds of posts screaming how something is dying every single week, and they're just as baseless as yours. If you actually have some real facts and real data backing you up, by all means, show it. Until then, stop pretending that anyone should treat your opinion seriously. To be fair, TB's work is hardly demonstrative of his ability to actually 'run a business'. He has a voice lots of people enjoy, and experience with game reviews and related content - it's a business in a sense, albeit very niche one. It's very much akin to any professional sportsman or mainstream artist etc; being able to make money from a skill or a talent such as this doesn't mean anything about your ability to run a business in any other sphere. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2601 Posts
On August 18 2013 20:59 Salazarz wrote: To be fair, TB's work is hardly demonstrative of his ability to actually 'run a business'. He has a voice lots of people enjoy, and experience with game reviews and related content - it's a business in a sense, albeit very niche one. It's very much akin to any professional sportsman or mainstream artist etc; being able to make money from a skill or a talent such as this doesn't mean anything about your ability to run a business in any other sphere. You haven't demonstrated any ability to run a business either, so I wouldn't trust anything about what you say defines ability to run a business. Running a youtube channel with hundreds of thousands of subscribers and the behind the scenes work is not as straightforward as 'have an attractive voice'. | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On August 18 2013 20:55 SixStrings wrote: Yeah, that would make him 28 or 29, there's no way in hell that's accurate. What drugs are you on? Link. | ||
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Timerly
Germany511 Posts
On August 18 2013 20:55 SixStrings wrote: Yeah, that would make him 28 or 29, there's no way in hell that's accurate. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/TotalBiscuit | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
On August 18 2013 21:10 gobbledydook wrote: You haven't demonstrated any ability to run a business either, so I wouldn't trust anything about what you say defines ability to run a business. Running a youtube channel with hundreds of thousands of subscribers and the behind the scenes work is not as straightforward as 'have an attractive voice'. 'Running' a youtube channel is actually pretty straightforward, and what does my ability to run a business have to do with anything at all? :S | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 18 2013 20:55 SixStrings wrote: Yeah, that would make him 28 or 29, there's no way in hell that's accurate. He is actually that young. His beard and attitude makes him seem as if he's in his 50s sometimes though. I've seen people make that assumption about him many a time. | ||
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
User was banned for this post. | ||
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Nick!
Scotland701 Posts
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thirtyapm
521 Posts
the baldness really fooled me, more so than the beard | ||
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Nick!
Scotland701 Posts
On August 18 2013 21:50 thirtyapm wrote: heh always thought he was really old. the baldness really fooled me, more so than the beard There was a video of him hosting a conference or something like 5 years ago, he looked like a 16 year old lol. The hair definitely fools alot of people | ||
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partydude89
1850 Posts
On August 18 2013 21:40 Chronald wrote: Been saying this for years. TB does not belong in the SC2 scene. He doesn't have an attachment to the game besides his prospective youtube viewers. His heart has never been in it, and this should be his cue to GTFO of eSports before he fucks shit up for more hardworking, honest, and dedicated individuals. TB is a british asshole who thinks he is entitled to some sort of God status within the eSport scene. Buying up a bunch of free agents and not doing anything with them besides complain about WCS and other tournaments does not make for a respectable team. Ryung is the only reason you even perform well at all. If Ryung left, you'd have no team. Get a grip, go eat a sausage (you fat fuck), and then never come back to eSports again. No one wants you or your stupid fat wife here. I would really suggest you take a few minutes, read your post over a few times, and then think to yourself "is this a quality post?" i don't know what you expect people to do when they read what you just wrote. do you think they'll say "hey! Chronald is right! lets get our pitchforks!" or do you think that they will just think your an idiot. On topic though. i really really hope that she come back. it was so cool to see her on those sc2 shows. | ||
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Serek
United Kingdom459 Posts
On August 18 2013 20:59 Salazarz wrote: To be fair, TB's work is hardly demonstrative of his ability to actually 'run a business'. He has a voice lots of people enjoy, and experience with game reviews and related content - it's a business in a sense, albeit very niche one. It's very much akin to any professional sportsman or mainstream artist etc; being able to make money from a skill or a talent such as this doesn't mean anything about your ability to run a business in any other sphere. What you say doesn't make sense. He runs a business off a YouTube channel that allows him to support his family and run side projects. Just because it's a YouTube channel doesn't make it less of a business. The taxman certainly doesn't think so. And niche business certainly have a place. Just look at that town in Germany that specializes in making super-high quality musical instruments. That's could be considered pretty niche too. Your post just makes it sound like you're envious when someone is able to exploit their abilities for profit. I suggest you go ahead and try to do it yourself, instead of posting on the internet putting down other people's success. | ||
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Prog455
Denmark970 Posts
On August 18 2013 22:43 Serek wrote: What you say doesn't make sense. He runs a business off a YouTube channel that allows him to support his family and run side projects. Just because it's a YouTube channel doesn't make it less of a business. The taxman certainly doesn't think so. And niche business certainly have a place. Just look at that town in Germany that specializes in making super-high quality musical instruments. That's could be considered pretty niche too. Your post just makes it sound like you're envious when someone is able to exploit their abilities for profit. I suggest you go ahead and try to do it yourself, instead of posting on the internet putting down other people's success. I think his point was that running a succesful YouTube channel does not necesserily make you a good CEO of anything but said YouTube channel. Just like being good at making high end music instruments will not make you a good restaurant owner. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
On August 18 2013 22:43 Serek wrote: What you say doesn't make sense. He runs a business off a YouTube channel that allows him to support his family and run side projects. Just because it's a YouTube channel doesn't make it less of a business. The taxman certainly doesn't think so. And niche business certainly have a place. Just look at that town in Germany that specializes in making super-high quality musical instruments. That's could be considered pretty niche too. Your post just makes it sound like you're envious when someone is able to exploit their abilities for profit. I suggest you go ahead and try to do it yourself, instead of posting on the internet putting down other people's success. I'm not saying his youtube channel isn't somehow a business or whatever nonsense you're so upset about. I'm saying that having a popular youtube channel is hardly indicative of your potential as a team manager. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 18 2013 23:20 Salazarz wrote: I'm not saying his youtube channel isn't somehow a business or whatever nonsense you're so upset about. I'm saying that having a popular youtube channel is hardly indicative of your potential as a team manager. That is true, the skills to run a team are really unknown outside of Korea, which those teams are either heavily sponsored by the Kespa group or looking for sponsors. There is no correct model or skill set for running a SC2 team. | ||
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Serek
United Kingdom459 Posts
On August 18 2013 23:04 Prog455 wrote: I think his point was that running a succesful YouTube channel does not necesserily make you a good CEO of anything but said YouTube channel. Just like being good at making high end music instruments will not make you a good restaurant owner. That ignores the fact there are certain things that are common to running any business, otherwise all MBAs would be superfluous (and that's a whole different and valid discussion). The whole premise of the post I replied to relied on the fact that running a YouTube is not a legitimate business, which is something I disagree with. I don't know whether TB can run a successful SC2 eSports team and frankly don't care. Although I do think he's got a slightly better chance of being successful at it compared to other people because he's been involved in the SC2 scene from early on. Only time will tell. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
On August 18 2013 23:54 Serek wrote: That ignores the fact there are certain things that are common to running any business, otherwise all MBAs would be superfluous (and that's a whole different and valid discussion). The whole premise of the post I replied to relied on the fact that running a YouTube is not a legitimate business, which is something I disagree with. I don't know whether TB can run a successful SC2 eSports team and frankly don't care. Although I do think he's got a slightly better chance of being successful at it compared to other people because he's been involved in the SC2 scene from early on. Only time will tell. Of course there are things common to running any business, in doing pretty much everything there is in life, like interpersonal communications (at which TB has shown himself to be terrible). The point of my post was exactly that - there is absolutely no indication as to whether TB can run a successful esports team or not, and using his current youtube business as some sort of a proof that he will definitely be great at it is rather far fetched. | ||
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trada
Germany347 Posts
genna used to be the team owner but we all know that TB was at least working along side with her without explicitely stating what his role is, I believe. now all they do is switch roles. TB will be team owner and Genna will probably work behind the scenes but nobody knows how much or what role she has. they're married after all and axiom stands and falls with them. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16648 Posts
On August 18 2013 23:58 Salazarz wrote: Of course there are things common to running any business, in doing pretty much everything there is in life, like interpersonal communications (at which TB has shown himself to be terrible). i wouldn't generalize TB's P.R. debacles into " TB is terrible at interpersonal communication". | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
On August 19 2013 00:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i wouldn't generalize TB's P.R. debacles into " TB is terrible at interpersonal communication". That would be unfair, what is more fair would be "TB lashes out at people frequently, then expects total community forgiveness after apologizing." The guy does this somewhat frequently. I don't believe the attacks on him for being a manager are fair, let's let him do his job and then we can assess his strenghts and weaknesses; still, while I don't like bashing community figures, it irks me when he does this, especially because it makes it seem as if he is entitled to the forgiveness for 1 apology or 1 tweet when that isn't at all comensurate. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On August 19 2013 00:21 docvoc wrote: That would be unfair, what is more fair would be "TB lashes out at people frequently, then expects total community forgiveness after apologizing." The guy does this somewhat frequently. I don't believe the attacks on him for being a manager are fair, let's let him do his job and then we can assess his strenghts and weaknesses; still, while I don't like bashing community figures, it irks me when he does this, especially because it makes it seem as if he is entitled to the forgiveness for 1 apology or 1 tweet when that isn't at all comensurate. You assume that TB expects anything from the community other than viewership. His entire modus operandi is essentially two things: 1) Speak his mind, 2) Put out content. I've seen him have spats with individuals, and I've seen him apologize to individuals that are actually involved in the business, but I've never really seen him apologize to the community at large. Honestly, I agree with him. Maybe not in tone and attitude, but the community is an unappeasable mess that will treat you like shit, and then throw a tantrum when it gets called out (or worse, ignored). If I was remotely involved in the SC2 ESports scene, I wouldn't even bother touching TL or Reddit. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
Are there even any other industries where people are praised for being honest and open minded after calling their fanbases / customers retarded and worthless, outside of esports? | ||
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Mangea
United States9 Posts
On a more general point, the eSports scene specifically, and gaming in general, is becoming more and more embarrassing. With everything that's been happening recently with the horrible abuse game developers get, and the unreasonable reactions that Genna's been getting, it's starting to feel like a relatively small group of adolescents, teenagers, and immature adults are running the creative and productive people out of town. Astonishingly, it seems like it's for nothing more severe than being told "No" once in a while amid largely being given what we want. It's one thing to be disappointed by a nerf, but death threats? Sometimes I wonder whether arresting the LoL player for writing something stupid on Facebook wasn't such an unreasonable thing, after all. TLDR: Please don't be a bully online or anywhere. Genna, best of luck to you. | ||
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Mangea
United States9 Posts
On August 19 2013 05:25 Salazarz wrote: The thing about degrading the community is that this community is what makes these incomes and lifestyles possible. You don't have to like all your viewers but it's pretty awful and childish to disrespect and degrade them by calling them irrelevant, unimportant, and replaceable the way TB is known to do. Are there even any other industries where people are praised for being honest and open minded after calling their fanbases / customers retarded and worthless, outside of esports? For what it's worth, TB usually distinguishes between the loud, abusive minority and the quiet, reasonable majority of the fanbase. He's perfectly right to do that, too. He's not degrading the community as a whole, he's chiding the people who behave horribly. And those people need to knock it off. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On August 19 2013 05:25 Salazarz wrote: The thing about degrading the community is that this community is what makes these incomes and lifestyles possible. You don't have to like all your viewers but it's pretty awful and childish to disrespect and degrade them by calling them irrelevant, unimportant, and replaceable the way TB is known to do. Are there even any other industries where people are praised for being honest and open minded after calling their fanbases / customers retarded and worthless, outside of esports? Is there any other industry where you're actually interacting with people in the business on a 1:1 basis? You really only have two options: Either have these people in the actual community with the occasional lash-out, or have them speak to you through a one-way filter. Or have the community shape up...lol... | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 19 2013 05:49 Mangea wrote: For what it's worth, TB usually distinguishes between the loud, abusive minority and the quiet, reasonable majority of the fanbase. He's perfectly right to do that, too. He's not degrading the community as a whole, he's chiding the people who behave horribly. And those people need to knock it off. That would be all well and good if he sometimes took his own advice. I understand that he's controversial purely to get viewers, much like everyone else in any form of media who has an image like his, but he can't do that to people when it's exactly how he acts himself sometimes. It's much like Phil Fish, if you act the way he does all the time you can't get upset when people call you out for it. | ||
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
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fNacks
United States39 Posts
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
On August 19 2013 16:35 Dracolich70 wrote: I love John, but he can't be Ghenna on this project. eSports really needs a womans touch - and Ghenna was the right woman. The misspell you did there, that was a typo, right? | ||
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_SpiRaL_
Afghanistan1636 Posts
Seriously I thought he must be nearing 40. | ||
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