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This is a heated issue, but please keep the debate civil.
Personal insult is not 'discussion' and will be moderated. -Page 17 |
On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote:
I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. Besides If I have a conversaion with someone, i can reveal it to whomever i choose.... there was no NDA signed, no one needed code word clearance, if you didn't want the content revealed, verbatim, then hold the conversation in person and check them for recording devices....... sound ridiculous? Yup.... just as ridiculous as "hoping" legal action can be taken against someone for revealing a skype converation.
Revealing the content of your own conversations is up to you, you dont need permission from anyone. She is not a reporter revealing a source, she was not revealing the content of a conversation held between two other people and was not revelaing the content of mail (snail or electronic) that did not belong to her. Therefore she did nothing wrong. She was attempting to shed light on a situation, which is always how TB and Genna do things... open and honest.
You're thinking of private people. Businesses have their own code of conduct and nobody will do business with a company revealing everything that wasn't put under NDA as they please. You think this leaves Axiom unharmed? There's no way people will have "fast and easy" business with them now. It's going to be NDA, embargo, faxes, etc. if at all. Will somebody in e-sports be too naive to do all that? Probably. It's not a good choice though given what came of this. Maybe they didn't mean to do something wrong but they still messed up.
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On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote:
I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. Besides If I have a conversaion with someone, i can reveal it to whomever i choose.... there was no NDA signed, no one needed code word clearance, if you didn't want the content revealed, verbatim, then hold the conversation in person and check them for recording devices....... sound ridiculous? Yup.... just as ridiculous as "hoping" legal action can be taken against someone for revealing a skype converation.
Revealing the content of your own conversations is up to you, you dont need permission from anyone. She is not a reporter revealing a source, she was not revealing the content of a conversation held between two other people and was not revelaing the content of mail (snail or electronic) that did not belong to her. Therefore she did nothing wrong. She was attempting to shed light on a situation, which is always how TB and Genna do things... open and honest.
What are you talking about?
Of course you usually can and should expect a certain level of confidentiality in correspondence between businesses. It might not be illegal to publish such (and important or secret information will be put under NDA), but it is extremely bad practice to publish without consent and certainly indicates a breach of trust to the business partner that gets compromised in this fashion. Usually you see stuff like this only when two companies are already in dirt flinging mode. If one of our business partner would behave in such manner, all relationships with him would be put on ice asap.
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I hope she moves out of US with her health problems. I fear for her life in this country.
With TB to EU and there she will get the help she needs even if she is not a billionaire.
Gl in the future
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On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote:
I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. Besides If I have a conversaion with someone, i can reveal it to whomever i choose.... there was no NDA signed, no one needed code word clearance, if you didn't want the content revealed, verbatim, then hold the conversation in person and check them for recording devices....... sound ridiculous? Yup.... just as ridiculous as "hoping" legal action can be taken against someone for revealing a skype converation.
Revealing the content of your own conversations is up to you, you dont need permission from anyone. She is not a reporter revealing a source, she was not revealing the content of a conversation held between two other people and was not revelaing the content of mail (snail or electronic) that did not belong to her. Therefore she did nothing wrong. She was attempting to shed light on a situation, which is always how TB and Genna do things... open and honest.
Yes, your whole post indeed does sound ridiculous.
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Wow Take is such a nice guy. I suppose that shouldn't be a big shock, but I never really realized how nice he was.
I'm still wondering, how bad was Genna leaking that private conversation? To me it doesn't really seem so bad for Acer and Take overreacted to it? Ofcourse a stupid thing by Genna, but tbh not sure what the big deal is(except Take feeling maybe a bit betrayed for private convo being leaked, but tbh he just looks great from that convo).
Seems just a huge shame how things went down.
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On August 18 2013 04:13 Timerly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote:
I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. Besides If I have a conversaion with someone, i can reveal it to whomever i choose.... there was no NDA signed, no one needed code word clearance, if you didn't want the content revealed, verbatim, then hold the conversation in person and check them for recording devices....... sound ridiculous? Yup.... just as ridiculous as "hoping" legal action can be taken against someone for revealing a skype converation.
Revealing the content of your own conversations is up to you, you dont need permission from anyone. She is not a reporter revealing a source, she was not revealing the content of a conversation held between two other people and was not revelaing the content of mail (snail or electronic) that did not belong to her. Therefore she did nothing wrong. She was attempting to shed light on a situation, which is always how TB and Genna do things... open and honest.
You're thinking of private people. Businesses have their own code of conduct and nobody will do business with a company revealing everything that wasn't put under NDA as they please. You think this leaves Axiom unharmed? There's no way people will have "fast and easy" business with them now. It's going to be NDA, embargo, faxes, etc. if at all. Will somebody in e-sports be too naive to do all that? Probably. It's not a good choice though given what came of this. Maybe they didn't mean to do something wrong but they still messed up.
The easiest way to handle that is to have an NDA and avoid the whole issue. At least at that point you can claim "They signed an NDA are should not have posted this". Its not really cost effective to pursue breaches of an NDA in court, but putting it on paper makes sure everyone is on the same page. It avoids situations like this one where one side saw no problem with releasing the chat logs because there was no new information and the other side objected.
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On August 18 2013 04:23 Zarahtra wrote:
Wow Take is such a nice guy. I suppose that shouldn't be a big shock, but I never really realized how nice he was.
I'm still wondering, how bad was Genna leaking that private conversation? To me it doesn't really seem so bad for Acer and Take overreacted to it? Ofcourse a stupid thing by Genna, but tbh not sure what the big deal is(except Take feeling maybe a bit betrayed for private convo being leaked, but tbh he just looks great from that convo).
Seems just a huge shame how things went down.
The problem for Take is that she revealed business between Take and Acer which he disclosed to her when trying to figure stuff out amicably. Now Acer obviously can't expect 100% confidentiality in any communication between Take and them because he might have to share some of it with other businesses (this is a common problem). The chain reaction could hurt his ability to make quick decisions and find solutions with Acer which obviously becomes a big deal. He will lose his abillity to communicate anything he agreed on with Acer to anybody else because they will ask him not to and that makes things even more complicated.
She damaged relations between Acer and Take because she just didn't think about what her actions would mean to other parties so yeah, I get him being mad. All that being said, it takes a lot to get a rise out of Take.
On August 18 2013 04:30 Plansix wrote:
The easiest way to handle that is to have an NDA and avoid the whole issue. At least at that point you can claim "They signed an NDA are should not have posted this". Its not really cost effective to pursue breaches of an NDA in court, but putting it on paper makes sure everyone is on the same page. It avoids situations like this one where one side saw no problem with releasing the chat logs because there was no new information and the other side objected.
True but it's also slow and irrational if you aren't prepared to follow through with pursuing it. So even if she had breached an NDA it wouldn't have changed anything besides telling her "don't reveal this" which is already completely common business everywhere. If I'd had to set up an NDA for every b2b interaction I've had I would have gone mad on day three.
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Showing parts of a conversation that are selectively chosen is not transparency. I noticed people praising axiom for always doing this. You want to be transparent? Show all the logs. Otherwise you are just making yourself look better.
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Is TB planning to just not sleep?
I don't see how else he can keep up with his workload while also managing axiom.
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On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote:
I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form.
Welcome to germany where you can get sued for posting a private written conversation.
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On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote:
I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. Besides If I have a conversaion with someone, i can reveal it to whomever i choose.... there was no NDA signed, no one needed code word clearance, if you didn't want the content revealed, verbatim, then hold the conversation in person and check them for recording devices....... sound ridiculous? Yup.... just as ridiculous as "hoping" legal action can be taken against someone for revealing a skype converation.
Revealing the content of your own conversations is up to you, you dont need permission from anyone. She is not a reporter revealing a source, she was not revealing the content of a conversation held between two other people and was not revelaing the content of mail (snail or electronic) that did not belong to her. Therefore she did nothing wrong. She was attempting to shed light on a situation, which is always how TB and Genna do things... open and honest.
You can do whatever you want.
Just don't expect people to want to deal with you in the future if you do, simple as.
I would assume you may not have held a job where you deal with lots of emails on a daily basis, because most people who do would understand that typically people in business dealings have some expectation of privacy when it comes to their emails. Maybe you will share it with other people in your company/business, but not with the whole world.
Also, she was not "open and honest" because she shared a selection of emails/conversations, and not all of them. She was as open and honest as she chose to be to support her perspective, which is inherently biased because she is one party involved in the dispute who has her own interpretation of events.
Selectively revealing things to be "open and honest" isn't really "open and honest".
Also, Take/people working from the competition's perspective wrote many of the emails. The belong to him, and not to her. Just because he sent the emails to her doesn't mean she somehow gains ownership over the content.
Also, you cannot legally record conversations in some places, either in person or phone conversations. And you certainly can't then publicly reveal those conversations which you illegally recorded. Because yes, legal action can sometimes be taken where things have been done which are illegal, which some things are in some jurisdictions.
When it comes to emails/textual Skype conversations, who knows. I wonder if it's been tested in courts.
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On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote:
I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form.
If a European government was to look in a private e-mail conversation it would be a violation of the European Convention on Human Rights article 8.
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Let's hope that the remains of that Axiom Team don't turn into something as toxic as Eclypsia was. First the matchfixing with Crank, now this behaviour and the ridiculous Feelings of superiority afterwards. They Need to be careful now, one of two more fails like that and they're dead.
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I can't believe TakeTV got so many viewers after this crapstorm.
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On August 18 2013 05:28 GreyKnight wrote:
Showing parts of a conversation that are selectively chosen is not transparency. I noticed people praising axiom for always doing this. You want to be transparent? Show all the logs. Otherwise you are just making yourself look better.
The parts that she revealed were to make Take and Acer look good. The logs she showed in her original post weren't used in a way to make Axiom look better. Go read the posts again.
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On August 18 2013 06:37 pigmanbear wrote:
I can't believe TakeTV got so many viewers after this crapstorm.
I can't believe people are still trying to stir shit up when it will only further hurt everyone involved.
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On August 18 2013 06:08 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote:
I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. If a European government was to look in a private e-mail conversation it would be a violation of the European Convention on Human Rights article 8.
And France at least has been proven to do so already. Those laws are ignored by everyone in the name of "fighting terrorism". But this is different, and has damaged Axiom and Take's brand. This is one of the worst business related scandals in esports ever, and the resulting effects may be far wider spread than the public will ever know.
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sadly.. the decline this game is in, shes one of many to come
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On August 18 2013 07:10 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 06:08 Prog455 wrote:On August 18 2013 03:57 emythrel wrote:
I love all the "you shouldn't post private conversations" stuff. There is no such thing as a private conversation when its in written form. If a European government was to look in a private e-mail conversation it would be a violation of the European Convention on Human Rights article 8. And France at least has been proven to do so already. Those laws are ignored by everyone in the name of "fighting terrorism". But this is different, and has damaged Axiom and Take's brand. This is one of the worst business related scandals in esports ever, and the resulting effects may be far wider spread than the public will ever know.
The fact that anti-terror laws has turned out to be a major loophole in regards to human rights does not change the fact that Europeans does indeed consider written communiction as something private. The point of my post was not to say that Genna did something illegal, it was merely an attempt to explain why Take reacted strongly to her way of doing business.
And in regards to this being one of the worst business related scandals in the history of eSports. Well let me just say that i am happy to hear that we up until this point have all been one happy family. This "scandal" has been blown out of proportions because Genna was stupid enough to announce her departure from Axiom in the same thread as explaining what had happened between Axiom and Take, and because TB lost his temper in the TL thread. Sadly it turns out that Axioms way of being professional happens to induce more drama than it prevents. Honestly - this whole "scandal" is a storm in a teacup if i ever saw one.
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On August 16 2013 13:00 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 12:54 nqqvt3 wrote:
Sorry to see her go, what exactly does that mean for Axiom? Totalbiscuit will be taking over.
Well I think that he could easily be a good manager, but he already has SO many responsibilities
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EPT
