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This is a heated issue, but please keep the debate civil.
Personal insult is not 'discussion' and will be moderated. -Page 17 |
This whole saga is embarrassing
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On August 18 2013 11:29 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 11:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 18 2013 11:12 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:08 AgentW wrote:On August 18 2013 10:54 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote:On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. What are you even talking about ? Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital. Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ... I wasn't aware a valid argument was required for baseless supposition. I'm not sure it's such a "baseless supposition" to predict an outcome based upon demonstrated lack of business sense of the two people in charge of Axiom.
I guess I think that even if you think this is true, that the Bains have particularly bad business sense, that they are more likely to be able to sell the team to somebody than for it to go out of business entirely. They did just jointly win third in the GSTL and finish second in the group stage of the ATC, with a pretty established foreign fanbase. The scene is in rough shape on the edges, I think, FXO NA etc, but the core is doing okay and even spreading with the recent push in other games--see Na'Vi's entry into SC2.
The Na'Vi acquisition of FXO Europe is a pretty good model of the kind of thing that I am talking about, actually. They were looking to make a splash by acquiring players that already had status and fanbases, and the Axiom crew is at least as good in those areas as the Na'Vi squad.
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On August 18 2013 11:29 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 11:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 18 2013 11:12 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:08 AgentW wrote:On August 18 2013 10:54 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote:On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. What are you even talking about ? Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital. Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ... I wasn't aware a valid argument was required for baseless supposition. I'm not sure it's such a "baseless supposition" to predict an outcome based upon demonstrated lack of business sense of the two people in charge of Axiom.
Well, if you say it's a lack of business sense, I suppose your opinion is far more valid than that of two people who actually run a successful and lucrative internet business.
Or, far more likely, you're severely exaggerating the consequences of this.
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On August 18 2013 11:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 11:29 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 18 2013 11:12 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:08 AgentW wrote:On August 18 2013 10:54 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote:On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. What are you even talking about ? Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital. Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ... I wasn't aware a valid argument was required for baseless supposition. I'm not sure it's such a "baseless supposition" to predict an outcome based upon demonstrated lack of business sense of the two people in charge of Axiom. Well, if you say it's a lack of business sense, I suppose your opinion is far more valid than that of two people who actually run a successful and lucrative internet business. Or, far more likely, you're severely exaggerating the consequences of this.
Exaggerating the consequences of some thing that causes internet outrage is what we do on team liquid. Especially if it is business related.
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On August 18 2013 11:29 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 11:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 18 2013 11:12 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:08 AgentW wrote:On August 18 2013 10:54 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote:On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. What are you even talking about ? Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital. Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ... I wasn't aware a valid argument was required for baseless supposition. I'm not sure it's such a "baseless supposition" to predict an outcome based upon demonstrated lack of business sense of the two people in charge of Axiom.
Or you just don't have enough information to render any sort of meaningful prediction. I mean I know you probably got a high SAT score and all but really, you don't know what you're talking about.
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On August 18 2013 11:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 11:29 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 18 2013 11:12 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:08 AgentW wrote:On August 18 2013 10:54 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote:On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. What are you even talking about ? Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital. Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ... I wasn't aware a valid argument was required for baseless supposition. I'm not sure it's such a "baseless supposition" to predict an outcome based upon demonstrated lack of business sense of the two people in charge of Axiom. Well, if you say it's a lack of business sense, I suppose your opinion is far more valid than that of two people who actually run a successful and lucrative internet business. Or, far more likely, you're severely exaggerating the consequences of this.
Successful and lucrative business previously run by someone who stepped down as CEO by posting in a blog on TL.net ? Pouring money earned by doing something you are good at (John's work casting and creating content) into an operation run by someone with an overall lack of business sense does not make for a successful business. /cheer them for investing in eSports, fine, but to argue that because they are dumping money into an enterprise that it is successful and lucrative is wrong. My point was that their "model" of "honesty" and "transparency" does not work with serious business people, such as sponsors. When a business makes a concession to help defray the costs for Team Liquid, it doesn't mean they wanted all the other teams, let alone the entire planet to be aware of it. Do you actually think those who didn't get the same deal as Team Liquid aren't going to be a bit sore about it ? Do you actually think that the next time Take endeavors to organize a similar tournament, those other teams aren't going to be expecting more concessions ? Her disclosure hurt her business partners and, in addition, neither of them fucking realize it was wrong. That is the problem. The disclosure isn't even a mistake in their eyes. It's their business model. Also, successful businesspeople don't fucking just give up. They learn from their mistakes and keep on trucking.
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On August 18 2013 13:24 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 11:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 18 2013 11:29 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 18 2013 11:12 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:08 AgentW wrote:On August 18 2013 10:54 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote:On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. What are you even talking about ? Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital. Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ... I wasn't aware a valid argument was required for baseless supposition. I'm not sure it's such a "baseless supposition" to predict an outcome based upon demonstrated lack of business sense of the two people in charge of Axiom. Well, if you say it's a lack of business sense, I suppose your opinion is far more valid than that of two people who actually run a successful and lucrative internet business. Or, far more likely, you're severely exaggerating the consequences of this. Successful and lucrative business previously run by someone who stepped down as CEO by posting in a blog on TL.net ? Pouring money earned by doing something you are good at (John's work casting and creating content) into an operation run by someone with an overall lack of business sense does not make for a successful business. /cheer them for investing in eSports, fine, but to argue that because they are dumping money into an enterprise that it is successful and lucrative is wrong. My point was that their "model" of "honesty" and "transparency" does not work with serious business people, such as sponsors. When a business makes a concession to help defray the costs for Team Liquid, it doesn't mean they wanted all the other teams, let alone the entire planet to be aware of it. Do you actually think those who didn't get the same deal as Team Liquid aren't going to be a bit sore about it ? Do you actually think that the next time Take endeavors to organize a similar tournament, those other teams aren't going to be expecting more concessions ? Her disclosure hurt her business partners and, in addition, neither of them fucking realize it was wrong. That is the problem. The disclosure isn't even a mistake in their eyes. It's their business model. Also, successful businesspeople don't fucking just give up. They learn from their mistakes and keep on trucking.
I think you're seriously confused. Axiom is not their business, it's their side project that may become a profitable venture, but was never expected to give them a living. They already have a business that is largely successful, and it allows them to put money into passion projects like Axiom and like SHOUTcraft America.
You believe your opinion has weight in this argument. It doesn't. The General Chat has hundreds of posts screaming how something is dying every single week, and they're just as baseless as yours. If you actually have some real facts and real data backing you up, by all means, show it. Until then, stop pretending that anyone should treat your opinion seriously.
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Light & Dark side... so true. ;;;;;
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Sick kudos towards the Baines, Genna seems to have been a force for the good of the scene, though admittedly I didn't know anything about her beforehand.
Then there's TB, for whom I have nothing but respect.
The guy could write his own ticket in MSM, but he sticks to what he loves at personal and financial expense, puts in frightening numbers of hours of work and is generally a sick badass.
Is he the eldest person in e-sports by the way? He must be in his early fourties?
And still he's one of the most valuable people we have...
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On August 18 2013 20:47 SixStrings wrote:
Sick kudos towards the Baines, Genna seems to have been a force for the good of the scene, though admittedly I didn't know anything about her beforehand.
Then there's TB, for whom I have nothing but respect.
The guy could write his own ticket in MSM, but he sticks to what he loves at personal and financial expense, puts in frightening numbers of hours of work and is generally a sick badass.
Is he the eldest person in e-sports by the way? He must be in his early fourties?
And still he's one of the most valuable people we have...
He was born in 1984.
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Yeah, that would make him 28 or 29, there's no way in hell that's accurate.
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On August 18 2013 13:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 13:24 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 18 2013 11:29 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 18 2013 11:12 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:08 AgentW wrote:On August 18 2013 10:54 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote:On August 18 2013 10:28 Kaitlin wrote:
Hmm, thanks to Genna, I wonder how other teams will negotiate with Take for extra travel stipends in the future, since we all now know that they gave TeamLiquid special funding. Amateur hour. Still don't see how it affects Take negatively ? You're free to publish this stuff, but don't expect any serious people to ever do business with you again. Of course, TB not realizing this isn't helping Axiom's future. I predict Axiom will be gone within a year, probably much sooner than that. If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. What are you even talking about ? Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital. Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ... I wasn't aware a valid argument was required for baseless supposition. I'm not sure it's such a "baseless supposition" to predict an outcome based upon demonstrated lack of business sense of the two people in charge of Axiom. Well, if you say it's a lack of business sense, I suppose your opinion is far more valid than that of two people who actually run a successful and lucrative internet business. Or, far more likely, you're severely exaggerating the consequences of this. Successful and lucrative business previously run by someone who stepped down as CEO by posting in a blog on TL.net ? Pouring money earned by doing something you are good at (John's work casting and creating content) into an operation run by someone with an overall lack of business sense does not make for a successful business. /cheer them for investing in eSports, fine, but to argue that because they are dumping money into an enterprise that it is successful and lucrative is wrong. My point was that their "model" of "honesty" and "transparency" does not work with serious business people, such as sponsors. When a business makes a concession to help defray the costs for Team Liquid, it doesn't mean they wanted all the other teams, let alone the entire planet to be aware of it. Do you actually think those who didn't get the same deal as Team Liquid aren't going to be a bit sore about it ? Do you actually think that the next time Take endeavors to organize a similar tournament, those other teams aren't going to be expecting more concessions ? Her disclosure hurt her business partners and, in addition, neither of them fucking realize it was wrong. That is the problem. The disclosure isn't even a mistake in their eyes. It's their business model. Also, successful businesspeople don't fucking just give up. They learn from their mistakes and keep on trucking. I think you're seriously confused. Axiom is not their business, it's their side project that may become a profitable venture, but was never expected to give them a living. They already have a business that is largely successful, and it allows them to put money into passion projects like Axiom and like SHOUTcraft America. You believe your opinion has weight in this argument. It doesn't. The General Chat has hundreds of posts screaming how something is dying every single week, and they're just as baseless as yours. If you actually have some real facts and real data backing you up, by all means, show it. Until then, stop pretending that anyone should treat your opinion seriously.
To be fair, TB's work is hardly demonstrative of his ability to actually 'run a business'. He has a voice lots of people enjoy, and experience with game reviews and related content - it's a business in a sense, albeit very niche one. It's very much akin to any professional sportsman or mainstream artist etc; being able to make money from a skill or a talent such as this doesn't mean anything about your ability to run a business in any other sphere.
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On August 18 2013 20:59 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 13:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 18 2013 13:24 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 18 2013 11:29 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 18 2013 11:12 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:08 AgentW wrote:On August 18 2013 10:54 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 10:41 InvictusRage wrote:
[quote]
If your timeline wouldn't keep the money locked up for too long, I'd offer your choice of reputable agent to hold the money and stakes up to $2k on my end. What are you even talking about ? Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital. Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ... I wasn't aware a valid argument was required for baseless supposition. I'm not sure it's such a "baseless supposition" to predict an outcome based upon demonstrated lack of business sense of the two people in charge of Axiom. Well, if you say it's a lack of business sense, I suppose your opinion is far more valid than that of two people who actually run a successful and lucrative internet business. Or, far more likely, you're severely exaggerating the consequences of this. Successful and lucrative business previously run by someone who stepped down as CEO by posting in a blog on TL.net ? Pouring money earned by doing something you are good at (John's work casting and creating content) into an operation run by someone with an overall lack of business sense does not make for a successful business. /cheer them for investing in eSports, fine, but to argue that because they are dumping money into an enterprise that it is successful and lucrative is wrong. My point was that their "model" of "honesty" and "transparency" does not work with serious business people, such as sponsors. When a business makes a concession to help defray the costs for Team Liquid, it doesn't mean they wanted all the other teams, let alone the entire planet to be aware of it. Do you actually think those who didn't get the same deal as Team Liquid aren't going to be a bit sore about it ? Do you actually think that the next time Take endeavors to organize a similar tournament, those other teams aren't going to be expecting more concessions ? Her disclosure hurt her business partners and, in addition, neither of them fucking realize it was wrong. That is the problem. The disclosure isn't even a mistake in their eyes. It's their business model. Also, successful businesspeople don't fucking just give up. They learn from their mistakes and keep on trucking. I think you're seriously confused. Axiom is not their business, it's their side project that may become a profitable venture, but was never expected to give them a living. They already have a business that is largely successful, and it allows them to put money into passion projects like Axiom and like SHOUTcraft America. You believe your opinion has weight in this argument. It doesn't. The General Chat has hundreds of posts screaming how something is dying every single week, and they're just as baseless as yours. If you actually have some real facts and real data backing you up, by all means, show it. Until then, stop pretending that anyone should treat your opinion seriously. To be fair, TB's work is hardly demonstrative of his ability to actually 'run a business'. He has a voice lots of people enjoy, and experience with game reviews and related content - it's a business in a sense, albeit very niche one. It's very much akin to any professional sportsman or mainstream artist etc; being able to make money from a skill or a talent such as this doesn't mean anything about your ability to run a business in any other sphere.
You haven't demonstrated any ability to run a business either, so I wouldn't trust anything about what you say defines ability to run a business. Running a youtube channel with hundreds of thousands of subscribers and the behind the scenes work is not as straightforward as 'have an attractive voice'.
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On August 18 2013 20:55 SixStrings wrote:
Yeah, that would make him 28 or 29, there's no way in hell that's accurate.
What drugs are you on? Link.
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On August 18 2013 21:10 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:59 Salazarz wrote:On August 18 2013 13:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 18 2013 13:24 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 18 2013 11:29 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 18 2013 11:12 Kaitlin wrote:On August 18 2013 11:08 AgentW wrote:On August 18 2013 10:54 Kaitlin wrote:
[quote]
What are you even talking about ? Sounds like he's willing to make a two thousand dollar bet if he had the ability to lock up the money for that long but he doesn't have the time to freeze that kind of capital. Yeah, I guess it's been a long time since "I would bet you $2,000 that you're wrong, but I can't tie up my money that long" was a valid counter argument. Those were the days ... I wasn't aware a valid argument was required for baseless supposition. I'm not sure it's such a "baseless supposition" to predict an outcome based upon demonstrated lack of business sense of the two people in charge of Axiom. Well, if you say it's a lack of business sense, I suppose your opinion is far more valid than that of two people who actually run a successful and lucrative internet business. Or, far more likely, you're severely exaggerating the consequences of this. Successful and lucrative business previously run by someone who stepped down as CEO by posting in a blog on TL.net ? Pouring money earned by doing something you are good at (John's work casting and creating content) into an operation run by someone with an overall lack of business sense does not make for a successful business. /cheer them for investing in eSports, fine, but to argue that because they are dumping money into an enterprise that it is successful and lucrative is wrong. My point was that their "model" of "honesty" and "transparency" does not work with serious business people, such as sponsors. When a business makes a concession to help defray the costs for Team Liquid, it doesn't mean they wanted all the other teams, let alone the entire planet to be aware of it. Do you actually think those who didn't get the same deal as Team Liquid aren't going to be a bit sore about it ? Do you actually think that the next time Take endeavors to organize a similar tournament, those other teams aren't going to be expecting more concessions ? Her disclosure hurt her business partners and, in addition, neither of them fucking realize it was wrong. That is the problem. The disclosure isn't even a mistake in their eyes. It's their business model. Also, successful businesspeople don't fucking just give up. They learn from their mistakes and keep on trucking. I think you're seriously confused. Axiom is not their business, it's their side project that may become a profitable venture, but was never expected to give them a living. They already have a business that is largely successful, and it allows them to put money into passion projects like Axiom and like SHOUTcraft America. You believe your opinion has weight in this argument. It doesn't. The General Chat has hundreds of posts screaming how something is dying every single week, and they're just as baseless as yours. If you actually have some real facts and real data backing you up, by all means, show it. Until then, stop pretending that anyone should treat your opinion seriously. To be fair, TB's work is hardly demonstrative of his ability to actually 'run a business'. He has a voice lots of people enjoy, and experience with game reviews and related content - it's a business in a sense, albeit very niche one. It's very much akin to any professional sportsman or mainstream artist etc; being able to make money from a skill or a talent such as this doesn't mean anything about your ability to run a business in any other sphere. You haven't demonstrated any ability to run a business either, so I wouldn't trust anything about what you say defines ability to run a business. Running a youtube channel with hundreds of thousands of subscribers and the behind the scenes work is not as straightforward as 'have an attractive voice'.
'Running' a youtube channel is actually pretty straightforward, and what does my ability to run a business have to do with anything at all? :S
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On August 18 2013 20:55 SixStrings wrote:
Yeah, that would make him 28 or 29, there's no way in hell that's accurate.
He is actually that young. His beard and attitude makes him seem as if he's in his 50s sometimes though. I've seen people make that assumption about him many a time.
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Nasty things were once written here.
User was banned for this post.
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Damn, I smell a lock soon enough :o
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heh always thought he was really old.
the baldness really fooled me, more so than the beard
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EPT
