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))No Starcraft 2 at MLG Columbus (so far) - Page 9
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Jamaica921 Posts
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xyzz
567 Posts
On August 08 2013 22:58 XaCez wrote: So, let's see what has changed in the NA scene: IPL: Gone. MLG: Gone. NASL: Works with WCS. WCS: Koreans. Missed something? In the same time all the western fans in every tournament live report thread are rooting for koreans to win it all and keep bashing western players even if they happen to win. It was lucky. It was cheesy. The korean was tired, jet-lagged, having computer problems, overrated, b-teamer, on his way out, not a real proper korean, etc. etc. etc. SC2 suffers from a few deadly diseases. One being the fact that RTS games like these are really hard to play properly, and let's face it, most of the players in the world for every game are very casual and therefore very bad at games in general. RTS games being single player orientated and very punishing means they aren't providing proper entertainment for habitual gamers unlike games like LoL or even WoW where the skill requirements to succeed at an acceptable level are much lower. I'm not trashing LoL professionals by any means as the competition at the top 0.5% is always tough, but the reason these games have more players in general is simply that they're easier and more casual in nature. The second disease combines with the first one nicely, being that while the game is hard, it requires insane amounts of practise to get good at, and koreans have a history of being able to put more gaming time (work) down and produce better RTS players. Then they send their players all over the world into foreign tournaments sponsored by foreign money (which are intended to draw foreign players into buying foreign products) and take all the cash prizes. This isn't a problem of any kind at first because the higher the level of the professionals the better it generally is (people need idols) but in the long run if the western community fails to produce any competitors that can be taken seriously the game simply begins to die a slow death. Why would an average joe start playing the game and get his ass kicked 24/7 for the first year, if he doesn't even have any realistic prospects of ever becoming good at the game since noone from his entire continent of 300+ million people can compete with the asians? He simply doesn't. He starts playing a game where he can feel that he's pwning, even if the thing he calls skill is just an illusion, because that's fun. If SC2 isn't fun, noone will even care if it dies. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On August 08 2013 23:05 turdburgler wrote: because they know from their own figures that most people dont like the hyper competitive 1v1 scene. theyve said this before, and they are aware of the advantages of supporting team games etc, they are completely aware of how to better market themselves to people who are currently getting in to LoL and DotA. the problem is that blizzard, like with all things, moves about glacial speeds. they are probably terrified of any big changes to their product, be it f2p, seperating the product in to single player and multiplayer games, some kind of premium system etc, will lead to a loss of sales of LotV, a product they have had a release target for for a decade already and are banking on sales numbers. not to get too off topic but dont expect any big shift from blizzard in respect to team games before LotV is already released and sold, then they will have the flexibility to change up the product because they would have no expectations on future profit from it. not to get too much off topic but if you watch how the development of all the blizzard games go, they consistently refuse to rock the boat when things are going well. perhaps its mean to say they dont care about customers when things are going well, but they certainly resist changing anything while people continue to buy and play. but then when things change around them, they can actually make pretty big shifts quickly. over the past 12 months theyve pretty much tripled staff working on WoW and hired and fired a whole new team for diablo. if you look at the figures posted by TB after shoutcraft, the whole thing would be profitable if the prize money was actually in line with the quality of play. the people who competed in that event were massively over paid. and thats not being critical of TB, they needed to put on an event people would care about, and to catch interest for a new brand, but the difference between the cost and the income for that was about 50% of the prize pool. My point was specifically regarding community map makers. I agree that if we want to try and fix the Team Games problem it has to start at Blizzard's end. You're correct though, Blizzard in pretty much everything SC2 related has been just moving too damn slow lately. | ||
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Vertitto
Poland750 Posts
On August 08 2013 23:04 Plansix wrote: Pick up in Febuary, right after the Super Bowl and rock out Esports style. We don't need 12 months of straight SC2. Dota 2 doesn't do that and neither does LoL. but...but... i got used to it ; ( | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On August 08 2013 22:58 XaCez wrote: So, let's see what has changed in the NA scene: IPL: Gone. MLG: Gone. NASL: Works with WCS. WCS: Koreans. Missed something? IPL, ran by people who had no idea what they were doing, pushed up costs and paid out huge sums with no idea how to monetize their product properly. expanded in to new areas with no idea how to build a coherent product and single handedly ushered in the oversaturation of the market hurting their own product. MLG, a company that has never turned a product. unable to run any game ever without developer support. even when putting on a small show in a venue so small they couldnt let in an audience (free way to improve your product) they host it at a venue with the highest rental costs in the world (expensive way to add no value). NASL, still unclear how they are doing. they are expanding their product in to different games but they havent put on enough shows to see any trends. then theres dreamhack, gd studio, ROG and probably more that i cant think of putting on shows that make money and can be sustained. so the evaluation has to be surely, that the scene cant support a big flashy light show outside of korean levels of sponsorship money, but if you run a tight event with a product that people actually want, you can still sustain yourself with starcraft 2? | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On August 08 2013 23:05 turdburgler wrote: [ if you look at the figures posted by TB after shoutcraft, the whole thing would be profitable if the prize money was actually in line with the quality of play. the people who competed in that event were massively over paid. and thats not being critical of TB, they needed to put on an event people would care about, and to catch interest for a new brand, but the difference between the cost and the income for that was about 50% of the prize pool. Which is completely against the point, seeing as ShoutCraft NA was brought up in the context of the NA scene, not just as a tournament in general. I mean don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but if "the people who competed in that event were massively over paid", as you put it, is our way of thinking, then there are two solutions: a) same players, but paid less (which means less money going into the NA scene) b) better players, a.k.a. no longer NA players, or at least a roster comprised only partially of NA players Both of which would be detrimental, again, to the NA scene from XaCez' original post. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
They just go where the money is, can't blame them for that. Ofc it's very sad. I allways try to have these romantical thoughts too, where you believe people don't do it only for the money, but also for the game/community/players/fans etc. and that SC2 has given MLG some great moments and great success and they could give something back and so on. But at the end of the day reality catches up. D: | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On August 08 2013 23:08 xyzz wrote: In the same time all the western fans in every tournament live report thread are rooting for koreans to win it all and keep bashing western players even if they happen to win. It was lucky. It was cheesy. The korean was tired, jet-lagged, having computer problems, overrated, b-teamer, on his way out, not a real proper korean, etc. etc. etc. SC2 suffers from a few deadly diseases. One being the fact that RTS games like these are really hard to play properly, and let's face it, most of the players in the world for every game are very casual and therefore very bad at games in general. RTS games being single player orientated and very punishing means they aren't providing proper entertainment for habitual gamers unlike games like LoL or even WoW where the skill requirements to succeed at an acceptable level are much lower. I'm not trashing LoL professionals by any means as the competition s at the top 0.5% is always tough, but the reason these games have more players in general are simply because they're easier and more casual in nature. The second disease combines with the first one nicely, being that while the game is hard, it requires insane amounts of practise to get good at, and Koreans have a history of being able to put more work down and produce better RTS players. Then they send their players all over the world into foreign tournaments sponsored by foreign money (which are intended to draw foreign players into buying foreign products) and take all the cash prizes. This isn't a problem of any kind at first because the higher the level of the professionals the better it generally is (people need idols) but in the long run if the western community fails to produce any competitors that can be taken seriously the game simply begins to die a slow death. Why would an average joe start playing the game and get his ass kicked 24/7 for the first year, if he doesn't even have any realistic prospects of ever becoming good at the game since noone from his entire continent of 300+ million people can compete with the asians? He simply doesn't. He starts playing a game where he can feel that he's pwning, even if the thing he calls skill is just an illusion, because that's fun. If SC2 isn't fun, noone will even care if it dies. The success of foreigners in a game like DotA these days make me give a more exigent look at foreigners in Starcraft to be honest. And in DotA the Chinese were viewed as strong as the Koreans are viewed for us. | ||
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Sevre
Ireland619 Posts
On August 08 2013 23:04 Plansix wrote: Pick up in Febuary, right after the Super Bowl and rock out Esports style. We don't need 12 months of straight SC2. Dota 2 doesn't do that and neither does LoL. Kick off with MLG Winter end with Blizzcon with Proleague, GSTL, OSL/GSL, ATC and Dreamhacks in between. It's perfect, dammit we should be in charge at Blizzard. | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On August 08 2013 23:14 shin_toss wrote: wtf.. inb4 sc2 is dying posts WAY too late lol. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On August 08 2013 23:11 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Which is completely against the point, seeing as ShoutCraft NA was brought up in the context of the NA scene, not just as a tournament in general. I mean don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but if "the people who competed in that event were massively over paid", as you put it, is our way of thinking, then there are two solutions: a) same players, but paid less (which means less money going into the NA scene) b) better players, a.k.a. no longer NA players, or at least a roster comprised only partially of NA players Both of which would be detrimental, again, to the NA scene from XaCez' original post. if you look at it as an event that goes side by side with more major competitions and a salary from their team, when you want to purely sustain the scene, which was TBs goal, the money you are looking at paying out is probably in the region of $2000 for first place. the actual pay out with $8000 iirc. so sure, if you want to sustain a competitive market purely on TBs charity, 8k seems reasonable. but if you see shoutcraft as something to be along side many other major leagues, and a team system with sponsorship of its own, you can cut the prize funding a lot, as long as the event is fairly regular, bimonthly or so. | ||
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Tarot
Canada440 Posts
On August 08 2013 23:12 Noocta wrote: The success of foreigners in a game like DotA these days make me give a more exigent look at foreigners in Starcraft to be honest. And in DotA the Chinese were viewed as strong as the Koreans are viewed for us. The Chinese are strong in Dota but nowhere near how dominant the Koreans are in Starcraft. | ||
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
There's my hail mary idea. It's not even fun to play or try to be involved in the scene anymore since WCS started; I don't feel like we're going to have a scene the way blizzard is driving it into the ground. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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snexwang
Australia224 Posts
On April 06 2013 16:57 snexwang wrote: The sky will always be falling. edit: whoops, my bad. Joke's on me. I don't have anything meaningful to contribute anyway.  User was warned for this post | ||
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AgentW
United States7725 Posts
On August 08 2013 23:15 turdburgler wrote: if you look at it as an event that goes side by side with more major competitions and a salary from their team, when you want to purely sustain the scene, which was TBs goal, the money you are looking at paying out is probably in the region of $2000 for first place. the actual pay out with $8000 iirc. so sure, if you want to sustain a competitive market purely on TBs charity, 8k seems reasonable. but if you see shoutcraft as something to be along side many other major leagues, and a team system with sponsorship of its own, you can cut the prize funding a lot, as long as the event is fairly regular, bimonthly or so. $4000 for first. Dunno if that affects your argument. | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On August 08 2013 23:15 turdburgler wrote: if you look at it as an event that goes side by side with more major competitions, and a salary from their team (even if its small. when you want to purely sustain the scene, which was TBs goal, the money you are looking at paying out is probably in the region of $2000 for first place, the actual pay out with $8000 iirc. so sure, if you want to sustain a competitive market purely on TBs charity, 8k seems reasonable. but if you see shoutcraft as something to be along side many other major leagues, and a team system with sponsorship of its own, you can cut the prize funding a lot, as long as the event is fairly regular, bimonthly or so. Agreed, but currently there aren't "many other major leagues" in the NA scene (which again was the point XaCez was originally making). And I'd also have to ask: if SHOUTCraft became a regular thing, would it keep drawing the same attention every time? And if so, wouldn't that still be a lesser amount than the first SHOUTCraft NA did? (obviously because it came at the right time, had good hype going for it, and an interesting approach in presentation as far as interviews went) | ||
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GuiBz
Canada108 Posts
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