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United States980 Posts
The Korean sample size seems extremely small considering all the matches that have happened recently(WCS, GSTL, Proleague, IEM Qualifiers, etc..), this leads me to question the validity of the Korean graphs. I think TvZ is for the most part becoming more balanced just from the way that Zergs are adjusting. Recently there has been some pretty good TvZs that were very entertaining to watch such as Effort v Flash on Whirlwind(WCS Challenger) and Polt v Revival on Star Station(IEM Shanghai).
The thing with window mines is that if the Zerg player splits/sends a pack of zerglings in the front and has observers their engagements are 10 times better than if they don't. There is a bit of randomness/gimmick to the unit but I think we are starting to see it mitigated by players with good unit control.
Also in regards to lack of Zerg presence in the later stages of WCS KR there was 3 groups in the ro32 that had 3 Zerg players and it happened again with one group in ro16. The race distribution wasn't that great, imo.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Premier
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On August 02 2013 05:23 Stress wrote:The Korean sample size seems extremely small considering all the matches that have happened recently(WCS, GSTL, Proleague, IEM Qualifiers, etc..), this leads me to question the validity of the Korean graphs. I think TvZ is for the most part becoming more balanced just from the way that Zergs are adjusting. Recently there has been some pretty good TvZs that were very entertaining to watch such as Effort v Flash on Whirlwind(WCS Challenger) and Polt v Revival on Star Station(IEM Shanghai). The thing with window mines is that if the Zerg player splits/sends a pack of zerglings in the front and has observers their engagements are 10 times better than if they don't. There is a bit of randomness/gimmick to the unit but I think we are starting to see it mitigated by players with good unit control. Also in regards to lack of Zerg presence in the later stages of WCS KR there was 3 groups in the ro32 that had 3 Zerg players and it happened again with one group in ro16. The race distribution wasn't that great, imo. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Premier
First of all, you listed that there were a bunch of matches in Korea, but the 4 tournaments you listed were the only 4 that happened in Korea this month. Keeping in mind there werent many GSTL matches since it ended half way through the month and there weren't that many PL matches while they were in playoffs. There were 2 weeks worth of matchups total the entire month. One weekend of matches and 4 or 5 total matches from the playoffs which is about equivalent to an additional week.
So no, we didn't make this graph up. There simply weren't that many games.
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On August 01 2013 17:53 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 17:50 Snowbear wrote:On August 01 2013 16:27 ReMinD_ wrote:
TvZ is so incredibly in T's favor that I expect the percentage to be even worse next month. But I am surprised about ZvP. All these issues could be resolved by making Hydralisk a decent unit. If you take a bigger sample size you will notice how close the numbers are. Sorry, but you are not getting your 70% zvt WOL winrate back. Blizzard will NEVER make the same mistake. you are embarrassing yourself with posting lies like zvt was 70% in wol. even last GSL in WoL was 61% while now we have over 70% in OSL for T (both very small sample sizes). just stop posting lies like this, its getting annoying.
I would advice anyone who even considered replying to this guy to check the last page of his posting history. It is exclusively him saying ZvT is fine past the queen-ovie patch.
"just give it more time guys 1½ months is not enough to judge anything"
Meanwhile you are balance whining 14 days after a patch that nerfed T.
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On August 01 2013 11:10 Porishan wrote:not sure if trolling or.... OP has no source, a single post with 2 pictures which anyone can make, plus this Show nested quote +David Kim: I don't think there is balance problem right now, and I don't think Zerg is weak at the moment. For example, the recent Dreamhack had a ZvZ finals. Also, WCS S1 Korea Regional Final had a ZvT finals and the Zerg won (Soulkey vs Innovation). In terms of ladder's data, Zerg actually has a little advantage right now.
They key there is that DK was basing his balance numbers off ladder data, he didn't cite tournament data.
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Here is an interesting factoid for people to discuss. In all the pro matches how often do you see zerg winning macro games in ZvX during the later stages of the tournament (ie not open brackets super early rounds etc.). A great amount of Z wins have been all ins that punished someone playing overly greedy.
Basically I'm saying if there was any credence to any balance indications what so ever for zerg players. It would be for some reason Zergs at the top level are having a difficult time getting into the late game properly. That or something with the Zerg late game isn't quite powerful enough to stay in the game.
None of this means that the game is imbalanced per say, it could be more of an indicator of forgiveness with mistakes being the more likely culprit. IE a T or P player is able to recover from a mistake more easily then a Z player.
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Game seems to be in a decent state all things considered, but what the heck is up with KR ZvP?!
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This is more accurate.
Maby marine with 7 range will be next change?
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This is more accurate.
Maby marine with 7 range will be next change? Well, you can still see a bit of blue so not soon.
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On August 02 2013 06:29 Nerski wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 11:10 Porishan wrote:not sure if trolling or.... OP has no source, a single post with 2 pictures which anyone can make, plus this David Kim: I don't think there is balance problem right now, and I don't think Zerg is weak at the moment. For example, the recent Dreamhack had a ZvZ finals. Also, WCS S1 Korea Regional Final had a ZvT finals and the Zerg won (Soulkey vs Innovation). In terms of ladder's data, Zerg actually has a little advantage right now. They key there is that DK was basing his balance numbers off ladder data, he didn't cite tournament data.
He was citing tournament data, just not super recent data, nor would anyone want him to balance off super recent data alone. We don't need another queen range patch because of a one month slump.
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I think ZvT needs to be looked upon probably is because of mines being so forgiving for the terran, and i still think Swarmhost + Static should be nerfed in some way against protoss, but then you need to buff zerg against Skytoss storm
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On August 01 2013 16:19 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:54 mrjpark wrote:On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote:
I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from. It's most likely due to Zergs being able to take maps against Terrans, but not series. I don't honestly remember the last time in the GSL/OSL a Zerg beat a Terran in a best of series where the Terran wasn't completely outmatched. Like Life vs. jjakji, Life will win that every time unless the game is terribly imbalanced. But it's not. I feel like there's just the slightest advantage for Terran right now, and that's all you really need at that level of play. Hyvaa > Fantasy 2-1 July 11th KangHo > Maru 2-0 July 18th
Okay, I'm sorry. I know this is really arbitrary...but Hyvaa vs Fantasy needs to be thrown out the window. That was the most absurd series of games and Fantasy essentially threw that. Also, I'm not really on the Maru hype train. He's pretty good, but I think he kind of lucked his way into the finals. A lot of people in his way just...played worse. I don't think he's a GSL/OSL finals caliber player. And we'll probably see that when he gets 4-0'd or 4-1'd in the finals in decimating fashion. I honestly think Losira versus Maru is a mismatch and Losira will win that 9x out of 10 in a balanced game. Edit: My second point being, I think the Losira/Maru matchup falls under my initial point where Zergs will take series when they're just that much better than the Terran.
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On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote:
they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane.
Hydras are fine. Stop whining.
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On August 02 2013 09:44 jkim91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote:
they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane. Hydras are fine. Stop whining.
hydras are not fine.
two upgrades to make them just decent. they don't even beat air many times, something they are supposed to do..
corruptors are even worse though
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On August 02 2013 12:11 jj33 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 09:44 jkim91 wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote:
they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane. Hydras are fine. Stop whining. hydras are not fine. two upgrades to make them just decent. they don't even beat air many times, something they are supposed to do.. corruptors are even worse though
Take it to the balance thread. Im sure they would enjoy the attention you would provide them.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On August 02 2013 09:35 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 16:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 01 2013 10:54 mrjpark wrote:On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote:
I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from. It's most likely due to Zergs being able to take maps against Terrans, but not series. I don't honestly remember the last time in the GSL/OSL a Zerg beat a Terran in a best of series where the Terran wasn't completely outmatched. Like Life vs. jjakji, Life will win that every time unless the game is terribly imbalanced. But it's not. I feel like there's just the slightest advantage for Terran right now, and that's all you really need at that level of play. Hyvaa > Fantasy 2-1 July 11th KangHo > Maru 2-0 July 18th Okay, I'm sorry. I know this is really arbitrary...but Hyvaa vs Fantasy needs to be thrown out the window. That was the most absurd series of games and Fantasy essentially threw that. Also, I'm not really on the Maru hype train. He's pretty good, but I think he kind of lucked his way into the finals. A lot of people in his way just...played worse. I don't think he's a GSL/OSL finals caliber player. And we'll probably see that when he gets 4-0'd or 4-1'd in the finals in decimating fashion. I honestly think Losira versus Maru is a mismatch and Losira will win that 9x out of 10 in a balanced game. Edit: My second point being, I think the Losira/Maru matchup falls under my initial point where Zergs will take series when they're just that much better than the Terran.
joke post
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If zerg is gonna get buffed itll probably be the viper, ive seen 2 interviews where d kim has eluded that the viper would be their priority if zergs were having trouble
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On August 02 2013 14:02 TAMinator wrote:
If zerg is gonna get buffed itll probably be the viper, ive seen 2 interviews where d kim has eluded that the viper would be their priority if zergs were having trouble
That, and they cant really touch any of the other zerg units without affecting zvz/zvp (or just dont want to). I suppose if they were to stick with the viper they could end up increasing the blinding cloud range, but aside from that I'm not to sure what else they could realistically buff for the viper that would end up helping zerg. After all when you watch zvt games, most of them are ended when zerg still has lair tech.
That said, if they were to buff zerg in the midgame it would need to be something that gives zerg sustainability for them to get to hive but isnt so overpowered that just gives zerg a free path to hive. Currently I can only think of one such unit : The infestor. Maayyybe the zergling (such as an increased attack speed), but I wouldn't expect that from blizzard this much into hots.
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EPT
