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On August 02 2013 02:52 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 02:44 sibs wrote:On August 02 2013 02:06 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I think more Zergs would win in ZvP if they played Stephano style, with mass swarmhosts + static defense. The problem is, that playstyle is super boring, both to play and to watch. I'm not sure Stephano's success isn't only due to the fact he's playing inferior opponents, but yea it does seem super strong when he does it, but when other people do it... just not that great. I haven't really seen anyone else play with the patience Stephano does. With that sort of playstyle, you really have to be ready and willing to take every game to an hour or more, and most players are understandably uninterested in playing hourlong turtlefest after hourlong turtlefest, regardless of how effective it is. Its the same reason no one else played mech the way Goody did in WoL, because even when he won, there was no fun in it for either players or spectators.
No one played Mech the way Goody did in WoL because it wasn't good. If it really was an effective way to nearly guarantee a win, many more players would have flocked to it.
Has nothing to do with keeping games entertaining for spectators. This notion that players have an obligation to keep games interesting is bullshit. Are we to expect them to self-edit their play to make sure it's entertaining more so than able to win? They get paid for results, not interesting games. Players are not and should not be inhibited in what they can do in a game because of the arbitrary whims of an audience. The game should naturally be entertaining regardless of what they do. If something is boring, it's on Blizzard to fix it, not the players to avoid it.
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Why aren't WCG qualifirs included for Korea. Why you randomly cut half of the results of IEM qualifiers. You realize that with bigger sample size you get more accurate results?
For example TvZ is 52% in Korea when including whole IEM and whole WCG and sample sieze is like 3 times bigger.
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According to the stats, it would seem that zerg could use a minor buff. The question is, why are the winrates so bad, what is killing the zerg? Can someone elaborate?
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On August 02 2013 03:51 keglu wrote:
Why aren't WCG qualifirs included for Korea. Why you randomly cut half of the results of IEM qualifiers. You realize that with bigger sample size you get more accurate results?
For example TvZ is 52% in Korea when including whole IEM and whole WCG and sample sieze is like 3 times bigger.
This is happening for some time. People just cut some results, so their race get's a lower winrate.
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On August 02 2013 03:54 Uni1987 wrote:
According to the stats, it would seem that zerg could use a minor buff. The question is, why are the winrates so bad, what is killing the zerg? Can someone elaborate?
1) The sample size is too low. They actually cut some games of the list. Why? So their race has a lower winrate.
2) Innovation and flash are both just destroying zergs.
Take a look at the top 50 korean gm ladder and check the winrates of each terran. You will notice that there is no tvz imbalance atm.
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they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2.
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On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote:
they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2.
They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back.
No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL?
Also, which one is your account? http://www.sc2ranks.com/search/hots/global/1v1/all/all/exact/Vestige
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On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote:
they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL?
great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff.
dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane.
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On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote:
they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane.
Give this guy a cookie, for the most nonsense balance whine in almost every thread.
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On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote:
they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane.
Stephano destroyed CODE S terrans at the end of WOL with roach hydra. Now terrans go mines instead of tanks. Mines are way worse against roach hydra than tanks. So why for gods sake would you buff hydras??? Because it gives you another allin against terran? Like there aren't enough busts atm? How many allins do terrans have against zerg? If stephano could bust code S terrans with roach hydra in WOL, than it should be also possible in HOTS. And a buff to the hydra would just be ridicilous.
Your race doesn't need a buff. Take a look at this: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/individual-leagues , and then look me in the eye and ask for a buff again. What do you want? WOL zerg domination? Do you want to see jhonnyreco destroy innovation? Is the list not red enough for you? Do you realise how biased and arrogant it is to ask for a buff while your race is actually doing very well? Or is the TLPD list lying too?
The stats show a perfectly balanced game (52% IS balanced). Okay, it's much worse when you randomly cut games from the list, but if you take all korean topgames, you end up with 52%.
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On August 02 2013 04:16 WeRRa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote:
they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane. Give this guy a cookie, for the most nonsense balance whine in almost every thread.
since hydras are fine yeah? since we see so much hydraplay vs bio...oh wait. love when people start talking bad about people just because they are out of arguments against their arguments. 
@snowbear: yeah clearly stephano doing roach hydra vs helion banshee opening shows that roach hydra with new super speedboost makes them viable. /sarcasm. this is HOTS. stop talking about WoL. you are living in the past. NOTHING from WoL matters for balance right now. nobody cares about 5 rax reaper being imba or queen patch being bad or roach hydra being viable vs helion banshee opening (which btw still might be viable but not vs the other openings).
for one thing you are right. all roach hydra in ZvT can do is a 2 2 all in. if that doesnt do significant damage its gg for T. Z needs more MACRO strats and comps, not more all in. at least there we agree. but yeah maybe the viper buff will make roach hydra finally be viable in a macro game.
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On August 02 2013 04:21 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:16 WeRRa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote:
they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane. Give this guy a cookie, for the most nonsense balance whine in almost every thread. since hydras are fine yeah? since we see so much hydraplay vs bio...oh wait. love when people start talking bad about people just because they are out of arguments against their arguments.
The worst player in the world can get into WCS Premier EU ro16 playing roach hydra. Just how bad are you if you can't pull it off? 
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On August 02 2013 04:07 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 03:54 Uni1987 wrote:
According to the stats, it would seem that zerg could use a minor buff. The question is, why are the winrates so bad, what is killing the zerg? Can someone elaborate? 1) The sample size is too low. They actually cut some games of the list. Why? So their race has a lower winrate. 2) Innovation and flash are both just destroying zergs. Take a look at the top 50 korean gm ladder and check the winrates of each terran. You will notice that there is no tvz imbalance atm.
This really, the sample size is just too low to say too much about it even if it does look like zergs are at a disadvantage. It could be that most players just aren't utilizing the race as much. Zerg usually thrives in the end game and maybe they're dieing too much against midgame pushes or something and haven't figured out a good way to counter it.
I'm just getting back into game but it feels like this is what was happening in the beginning of WoL aswell and when zergs figured out some stuff, things started to look much better.
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ZvT last month was in favor of zerg in Korea 51.4 to 48.6 while being almost dead even internationally according to these graphs. Aligulac has shown that ZvT has been consistently improving for zerg with each passing month. http://aligulac.com/reports/
Zerg is tied with terran for most premier tournament wins with 5. Poor toss only has 2 premier wins.
In major tournaments zerg has 7 wins to the 5 of toss and 1 of terran.
So considering tournament wins Zerg has been the most successful race in HOTS so far.
Explain to me again why Zerg needs to be buffed? Because they had one bad month in Korea? The July winrates may look bad but Zerg won every tournament that concluded in July. They won Redbull, Ritmix, IEM and Dreamhack.
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On August 02 2013 04:21 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:16 WeRRa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote:
they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane. Give this guy a cookie, for the most nonsense balance whine in almost every thread. since hydras are fine yeah? since we see so much hydraplay vs bio...oh wait. love when people start talking bad about people just because they are out of arguments against their arguments. @snowbear: yeah clearly stephano doing roach hydra vs helion banshee opening shows that roach hydra with new super speedboost makes them viable. /sarcasm. this is HOTS. stop talking about WoL. you are living in the past. NOTHING from WoL matters for balance right now. nobody cares about 5 rax reaper being imba or queen patch being bad or roach hydra being viable vs helion banshee opening (which btw still might be viable but not vs the other openings). for one thing you are right. all roach hydra in ZvT can do is a 2 2 all in. if that doesnt do significant damage its gg for T. Z needs more MACRO strats and comps, not more all in. at least there we agree. but yeah maybe the viper buff will make roach hydra finally be viable in a macro game.
Yeah ignore me TLPD link and ignore my statement about the 52% winrate. Way to go man.
When was the last time you saw mech in TvZ? It's as viable as roach hydra atm. But mine marine and muta ling bling are superior atm.
And we are seeing beautiful long macro games atm in TvZ, so I don't see your problem.
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On August 02 2013 04:41 Mattumsfox wrote:ZvT last month was in favor of zerg in Korea 51.4 to 48.6 while being almost dead even internationally according to these graphs. Aligulac has shown that ZvT has been consistently improving for zerg with each passing month. http://aligulac.com/reports/Zerg is tied with terran for most premier tournament wins with 5. Poor toss only has 2 premier wins. In major tournaments zerg has 7 wins to the 5 of toss and 1 of terran. So considering tournament wins Zerg has been the most successful race in HOTS so far. Explain to me again why Zerg needs to be buffed? Because they had one bad month in Korea? The July winrates may look bad but Zerg won every tournament that concluded in July. They won Redbull, Ritmix, IEM and Dreamhack.
Zerg needs to be buffed because only-highest-level-matters cannot accept the fact that the zerg is doing worse in Korea where it matters (WCS/ProLeague/GSTL).
All the success that guys like Soulkey, Hyun, Revival, Life, Leenock, Snuty, Jaedong, Stephano had do not matter because they either happened in crap foreign tournaments, versus vastly inferior players or the zergs were forced to do some kind of all-in or stick on T2 and these kind of games do not count.
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Zergs win every major tournament in July, have highest winrates on ladder----> buff.
I guess that poll on which race whines the most was deadly accurate..
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Way too small numbers to be of significance. sorry!
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On August 02 2013 04:45 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:21 Decendos wrote:On August 02 2013 04:16 WeRRa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote:
they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane. Give this guy a cookie, for the most nonsense balance whine in almost every thread. since hydras are fine yeah? since we see so much hydraplay vs bio...oh wait. love when people start talking bad about people just because they are out of arguments against their arguments. @snowbear: yeah clearly stephano doing roach hydra vs helion banshee opening shows that roach hydra with new super speedboost makes them viable. /sarcasm. this is HOTS. stop talking about WoL. you are living in the past. NOTHING from WoL matters for balance right now. nobody cares about 5 rax reaper being imba or queen patch being bad or roach hydra being viable vs helion banshee opening (which btw still might be viable but not vs the other openings). for one thing you are right. all roach hydra in ZvT can do is a 2 2 all in. if that doesnt do significant damage its gg for T. Z needs more MACRO strats and comps, not more all in. at least there we agree. but yeah maybe the viper buff will make roach hydra finally be viable in a macro game. Yeah ignore me TLPD link and ignore my statement about the 52% winrate. Way to go man. When was the last time you saw mech in TvZ? It's as viable as roach hydra atm. But mine marine and muta ling bling are superior atm. And we are seeing beautiful long macro games atm in TvZ, so I don't see your problem.
and i am all for making mech more viable. i really dont understand why you would be against every race having a lot of viable options and strategies. it makes for much more fun games and more actual strategic decisions in a strategy game. like many MANY Ts want mech to be viable but are against Z being able to choose from different strats? thats just biased, nothing more.
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For the love of god stop posting these, they just fuel the 'IMBA IMBA IMBA' fire. Every single person who was outraged by medivac speed (inc. me) was told to shut up and deal with it, and guess what, we did, and the game is better than ever.
You can't take the top 1% starcraft players in the world, give 1 month of games from a tournament where you can prepare for your opponant (worthless sample size, and worthless game data), and expect to use that as balance. It's completely ridiculous.
None of this data is useful what-so-ever. None of it.
Now, take hundreds of thousands of games for each match-up in each league (AKA the data blizzard easily collects) now that's something you can use. Cry some more please, now i remember why i don't read forums anymore.
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EPT
