|
On August 05 2013 02:12 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 02:10 keglu wrote:On August 05 2013 02:07 c0sm0naut wrote:
The hardest thing about interpreting statistics like this is that it doesn't tell the whole story. If you are a zerg or random player, the ZvT matchup FEELS imbalanced/too easy for Terran. I will be honest that my zerg is not my most skilled race and that Terran is my best, but it's more than just that, it takes zero skill to plant mines, stim and split vs banes which is pretty much 90% of the matchup right now.
In a way, the matchup is imba becuase Z can't even tech to hive safely vs a strong terran before 4 bases but once Z does secure 4 base and can go hive while defending with mutas, zerglings, banelings, the ultralisk switch afterwards feels just as imbalanced. The matchup is currently balanced for the highest levels of play, which means zergs like me who die to any amount of drops + frontal mine pushes are going to get mad as fuck every single game we play in the matchup. Seriously, it might not be imba but mines are a shitty fucking unit to play against and i wish that they were like in bw where they go away after shooting.. even if we gave them to free with hellions, then that's much better. but the way mines are currently designed is breaking the game at a casual level and forcing specific styles at a pro level. I think it's time to address the widow mine with balance changes, i play as R at about 1k masters and have played Terran since wings of liberty. Did i read it correctly that it takes zero skill to split vs banes? yes, ive been playing terran since launch of wol and random since launch of hots, stimming and clicking the patrol key away from banelings does not take much skill. maybe zero is the wrong word, but when plat level micro is the crux of terran play in the matchup we have a problem
How come even Code S Terrans sometimes lose clump of Marines to Banelings then? Surely this should never happen if the micro required is "plat level"?
|
On August 05 2013 02:12 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 02:10 keglu wrote:On August 05 2013 02:07 c0sm0naut wrote:
The hardest thing about interpreting statistics like this is that it doesn't tell the whole story. If you are a zerg or random player, the ZvT matchup FEELS imbalanced/too easy for Terran. I will be honest that my zerg is not my most skilled race and that Terran is my best, but it's more than just that, it takes zero skill to plant mines, stim and split vs banes which is pretty much 90% of the matchup right now.
In a way, the matchup is imba becuase Z can't even tech to hive safely vs a strong terran before 4 bases but once Z does secure 4 base and can go hive while defending with mutas, zerglings, banelings, the ultralisk switch afterwards feels just as imbalanced. The matchup is currently balanced for the highest levels of play, which means zergs like me who die to any amount of drops + frontal mine pushes are going to get mad as fuck every single game we play in the matchup. Seriously, it might not be imba but mines are a shitty fucking unit to play against and i wish that they were like in bw where they go away after shooting.. even if we gave them to free with hellions, then that's much better. but the way mines are currently designed is breaking the game at a casual level and forcing specific styles at a pro level. I think it's time to address the widow mine with balance changes, i play as R at about 1k masters and have played Terran since wings of liberty. Did i read it correctly that it takes zero skill to split vs banes? yes, ive been playing terran since launch of wol and random since launch of hots, stimming and clicking the patrol key away from banelings does not take much skill. maybe zero is the wrong word, but when plat level micro is the crux of terran play in the matchup we have a problem
Thats interesting since i always considered marines spliting againts banes most impressive micro there is and usually in pro games still players dont split good enough with few exceptions. But you master player who learned spliting in platinum so i must be wrong here.
Also i would assume that similiar micro would be required to counter widow mines.
|
A simple way to make mines more micro intensive would be to make the unit a fieldmine launcher. Like a creeptumor mechanic.
This way, to have minefield you need constant micro of your units: burrowing it somwhere, landing mines, unburrowing etc...
What is cool with that will be that minefield like in BW will happen. So it could be a good start when meching (or with any style) to have few of them for defense then get rid of most. But it'll weakend a lot the 4M constant push : the mine itself does not do damage, but her launched one do.
|
On August 05 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 02:12 c0sm0naut wrote:On August 05 2013 02:10 keglu wrote:On August 05 2013 02:07 c0sm0naut wrote:
The hardest thing about interpreting statistics like this is that it doesn't tell the whole story. If you are a zerg or random player, the ZvT matchup FEELS imbalanced/too easy for Terran. I will be honest that my zerg is not my most skilled race and that Terran is my best, but it's more than just that, it takes zero skill to plant mines, stim and split vs banes which is pretty much 90% of the matchup right now.
In a way, the matchup is imba becuase Z can't even tech to hive safely vs a strong terran before 4 bases but once Z does secure 4 base and can go hive while defending with mutas, zerglings, banelings, the ultralisk switch afterwards feels just as imbalanced. The matchup is currently balanced for the highest levels of play, which means zergs like me who die to any amount of drops + frontal mine pushes are going to get mad as fuck every single game we play in the matchup. Seriously, it might not be imba but mines are a shitty fucking unit to play against and i wish that they were like in bw where they go away after shooting.. even if we gave them to free with hellions, then that's much better. but the way mines are currently designed is breaking the game at a casual level and forcing specific styles at a pro level. I think it's time to address the widow mine with balance changes, i play as R at about 1k masters and have played Terran since wings of liberty. Did i read it correctly that it takes zero skill to split vs banes? yes, ive been playing terran since launch of wol and random since launch of hots, stimming and clicking the patrol key away from banelings does not take much skill. maybe zero is the wrong word, but when plat level micro is the crux of terran play in the matchup we have a problem How come even Code S Terrans sometimes lose clump of Marines to Banelings then? Surely this should never happen if the micro required is "plat level"?
because zergs split their banelings to different clumps of marines too, flank terrans and often catch them by surprise during macro cycles (Did you watch soulkey vs innovation, he split his banes into like 6 groups? He also counters with huge amounts of units RIGHT before moving in with his army on innov main force because he KNOWS he will be distracted). the fact of the matter is that if code S terrans were never surprised they would always split efficiently simply because it is really not that difficult, i see excellent splitting in my average ladder games because hitting stim and moving units around is really not as hard as people make it out to be. engaging into mines takes more micro, unless you play Zerg as well it is really hard to comment on this from your perspectiv
|
engaging into mines takes more micro, unless you play Zerg as well it is really hard to comment on this from your perspectiv
I play Z as well as T. And patrol shift split do WONDERS to play against mines. But patrol split for terran. It's just a good way to clump your marines unless the Z does not have any lings in his army.
|
Do people even watch progames? Cause it's actually pretty rare to have a big game changing mine hit, way rarer than big banes hits. If you add all the friendly fire terrans get from mines, you can hardly complain about them. They force micro, true, but is it bad? No. The big hits often happen on a mindless clumped a move, which everybody complains about (remember the arguments against the warhound? no micro amove unit #1 yeah). The matchup is great to watch and play from both sides, unless you liked your infestors a move F.
If you watched Taeja games at ASUS ROG, even though his play was really awesome, the games didn't look one sided. And if you call his micro plat level, then I don't know what I can do for you. Muta ling banes is still very potent and hard to deal with as T, the army control is still hard as T, and now it is hard as Z. Good thing, that's all.
|
On August 05 2013 02:59 Nimix wrote:
Do people even watch progames? Cause it's actually pretty rare to have a big game changing mine hit, way rarer than big banes hits. If you add all the friendly fire terrans get from mines, you can hardly complain about them. They force micro, true, but is it bad? No. The big hits often happen on a mindless clumped a move, which everybody complains about (remember the arguments against the warhound? no micro amove unit #1 yeah). The matchup is great to watch and play from both sides, unless you liked your infestors a move F.
If you watched Taeja games at ASUS ROG, even though his play was really awesome, the games didn't look one sided. And if you call his micro plat level, then I don't know what I can do for you. Muta ling banes is still very potent and hard to deal with as T, the army control is still hard as T, and now it is hard as Z. Good thing, that's all.
when did i directly mention taeja? his micro is CODE S level, but that's something that is not a req against baneling zergling imo. Banelings have a low skill ceiling, microing against them is really not difficult man. if you have to split perfectly in every TvZ you play you're not macroing well enough or are not doing any drops to split his army, maybe letting him get your mine charges for free with a few units instead of microing those as well. muta ling bane is potent still because it forces mines to be defensive (some of them) and terran to play some amount of defense as well instead of just bludgeoning you off 3CCs until you die or he runs out of money.its also the most fluid transition into the lategame because it's the only one that can actually defend medivacs. the pace at which you can put pressure on a zerg, its almost a rule now that if his mutalisks are on your side of the map, you're doing something wrong, or you're doing something right and he's about to take a shit ton of damge from a drop while not be able to break your defense
|
Havent paid much attention in the last couple months.. but Protoss highest winrate ?!
|
Well, taeja said that zerg was worst atm, seems to be backed up
|
On August 07 2013 07:43 Prplppleatr wrote:
Well, taeja said that zerg was worst atm, seems to be backed up
And 3 weeks ago protoss was considered the weakest. 3 weeks later it's zerg. Maybe in a few weeks terran? If people keep looking at 2-3 korean tournaments to determine if the game is balanced, then this shit will happen forever. Week 1 zerg is bad, week 2 terran and week 3 protoss.
Try to take a look at the bigger picture:
- Korean GM: http://nios.kr/sc2/kr/1v1/hots/grandmaster/
- http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/individual-leagues TLPD
That's also a part of the higher levels. But people want to focus on WCS KR and OSL. So if innovation and flash do well, then terran is imba. Then a few weeks later SoS and Parting stomp everyone: protoss is OP! Then a few weeks later Hyun and Jaedong destroy the scene and hey: zerg is OP!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
