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On July 11 2013 23:52 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 23:49 theking1 wrote:On July 11 2013 23:45 Talin wrote:On July 11 2013 23:39 theking1 wrote:On July 11 2013 23:37 Talin wrote:On July 11 2013 23:36 theking1 wrote:On July 11 2013 23:28 Talin wrote:On July 11 2013 23:24 Plansix wrote:On July 11 2013 23:16 Talin wrote:On July 11 2013 13:23 ForcesEqualZero wrote:
It makes sense to do this from a marketing point of view. This argumentation has been the one singular bane of western esports for the last 10 years, no matter the game. You either get a sport, or you get a show. You don't get both (not by design at least). If you want to watch a sport, the scene and audience needs to get over their obession with faux hype, fake rivalries, scripted storylines, and "marketable" personalities - and only take note of them when and IF they occur naturally as a product of the competition itself. If you want a show, just put 15 foreigners in a team house and make reality TV from it. Way better ROI than a foreigner WCS with half the players playing at a semi-pro level at best. They are not exclusive. They can have hype and also be a sport. Most US sports are able to do both. Marketability is a broad term and shouldn't just be applied to reality TV shows. You can have hype, but not artificially build it up. For example, commentators saying "I'm so pumped for this matchup between two of the best players in the world" during the intro for a match between two mid-tier foreigners - no serious sports commentator does that. If the competition isn't at the foundation and you have to make compromises to be able to sell the show to viewers, then the whole concept is rotten at its very core. On July 11 2013 23:28 theking1 wrote:
Can Romanian football teams play in the MOntenegro football championship?After all the tema that wants to compete in the champions league sould be the best in Europe.. Can football be played online regardless of location? We're not talking about football or [insert random sport here], so it doesn't matter. There are no limitations to video games being a global competition between the best players - other than latency, but that's actually working against the Koreans in our case. Football is also a global competition between players.it is fairly easy to put 15 football players in a bus and camp them somewhere in Montenegro so they can go to champions league form the Montenegro league.Btw why doesn't the premier league or the spanish first leagues allow the same thing?Because they wanna protect their own football scene.The same as na people wanna protect the na scene Why are you talking about football? because footblall and sc2 are both competitions aka sports and in principle they follow the same rules....Now stop dodging the question Doesn't mean you can draw direct analogy between them, no matter how much you insist on it. Starcraft is a video game. That can be played online between people anywhere in the world. It doesn't have the physical limitations of football (a sport where players kick the ball around that was growing in the 19th freaking century). The competition structures are not comparable or analogous in the slightest. I don't want to follow up on incorrect analogies you made up to satisfy your position. If that's dodging to you, then I can't help you with that. ok no football.Then why does GSL,OSL the most prestigious sc2 competitions do not have global online qualifiers???And why does the LCS the most watched esports league do not have online qualifiers and require teams to be present oin the studio? To make it clear offline studio play is a politically correct form of region lock,I just wanna know your oppinion about it.Cause by your logic the gsl and osl are ba dcompetitions since they do not allow the best form around the Earth to compete Blizzard already said that they were going to move towards more offline play for regions. GSL and OSL have had their formats for a while and Blizzard didn't want to piss them off. while I agree they should have online qualifiers, how many foreigners do you expect to join that qualifier?
I would say the it would be better for everyone. The players that care would show up, those that can't, wouldn't. But the US is huge and EU is also huge. Still, they need to move that way as quickly as possible to get all the regions to the highest level of play possible.
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Like some of his WCS opinions or not, Khaldor provides a lot of extra quality content for people to watch and provides some insight.
Thanks
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On July 11 2013 23:49 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 23:45 Talin wrote:On July 11 2013 23:39 theking1 wrote:On July 11 2013 23:37 Talin wrote:On July 11 2013 23:36 theking1 wrote:On July 11 2013 23:28 Talin wrote:On July 11 2013 23:24 Plansix wrote:On July 11 2013 23:16 Talin wrote:On July 11 2013 13:23 ForcesEqualZero wrote:
It makes sense to do this from a marketing point of view. This argumentation has been the one singular bane of western esports for the last 10 years, no matter the game. You either get a sport, or you get a show. You don't get both (not by design at least). If you want to watch a sport, the scene and audience needs to get over their obession with faux hype, fake rivalries, scripted storylines, and "marketable" personalities - and only take note of them when and IF they occur naturally as a product of the competition itself. If you want a show, just put 15 foreigners in a team house and make reality TV from it. Way better ROI than a foreigner WCS with half the players playing at a semi-pro level at best. They are not exclusive. They can have hype and also be a sport. Most US sports are able to do both. Marketability is a broad term and shouldn't just be applied to reality TV shows. You can have hype, but not artificially build it up. For example, commentators saying "I'm so pumped for this matchup between two of the best players in the world" during the intro for a match between two mid-tier foreigners - no serious sports commentator does that. If the competition isn't at the foundation and you have to make compromises to be able to sell the show to viewers, then the whole concept is rotten at its very core. On July 11 2013 23:28 theking1 wrote:
Can Romanian football teams play in the MOntenegro football championship?After all the tema that wants to compete in the champions league sould be the best in Europe.. Can football be played online regardless of location? We're not talking about football or [insert random sport here], so it doesn't matter. There are no limitations to video games being a global competition between the best players - other than latency, but that's actually working against the Koreans in our case. Football is also a global competition between players.it is fairly easy to put 15 football players in a bus and camp them somewhere in Montenegro so they can go to champions league form the Montenegro league.Btw why doesn't the premier league or the spanish first leagues allow the same thing?Because they wanna protect their own football scene.The same as na people wanna protect the na scene Why are you talking about football? because footblall and sc2 are both competitions aka sports and in principle they follow the same rules....Now stop dodging the question Doesn't mean you can draw direct analogy between them, no matter how much you insist on it. Starcraft is a video game. That can be played online between people anywhere in the world. It doesn't have the physical limitations of football (a sport where players kick the ball around that was growing in the 19th freaking century). The competition structures are not comparable or analogous in the slightest. I don't want to follow up on incorrect analogies you made up to satisfy your position. If that's dodging to you, then I can't help you with that. ok no football.Then why does GSL,OSL the most prestigious sc2 competitions do not have global online qualifiers???And why does the LCS the most watched esports league do not have online qualifiers and require teams to be present oin the studio? To make it clear offline studio play is a politically correct form of region lock,I just wanna know your oppinion about it.Cause by your logic the gsl and osl are ba dcompetitions since they do not allow the best form around the Earth to compete
There was no cross-server play directly implemented in Wings of Liberty, and cross-server latency is still bad between some regions.
Just to be clear, ideally you would want a global competition (that includes the ladder). We're just not there yet, more so technically than for any other reasons. Doesn't mean we'll never get there. For now, we allow any Starcraft player to qualify in any (non-invitational) tournament - and there's no reason not to, other than "we don't like people from this country because they beat us all the time", which is inherently irrational.
Competitve video games will never naturally develop the way physical sports have a hundred years ago. There will never be an esport where you qualify for your local league then qualify for national, then for regional, then for continental, then for global. It's an archaic structure that's both impractical and unnecessary.
Even physical sports have changed over the years to favor higher quality competitions. National champions used to get seeded directly into the Champions Cup in football. Now top nations get 3 or 4 clubs to represent them, and low end nations get to have 3 qualifying rounds. I'll never ever see a Montenegrin club play in Champions League, and you might see a Romanian one every now and then if they get lucky, but we're both going to watch it anyway.
In fact, in recent years there have been a lot of initiatives to form regional leagues because competition in individual countries is considered to be weak - so top clubs would rather play top clubs from a neighbor country regularly during the year, than have to play semi-pro clubs from their own country. It's not all that unlikely that we will see Montenegrin and Romanian clubs competing for the same CL spot in some sort of Balkan league sometimes in the future. And I bet you anything you want that league would have a bigger audience than the national leagues do. People will not watch shit football if they can watch slightly less shit football.
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On July 11 2013 23:52 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 23:49 theking1 wrote:On July 11 2013 23:45 Talin wrote:On July 11 2013 23:39 theking1 wrote:On July 11 2013 23:37 Talin wrote:On July 11 2013 23:36 theking1 wrote:On July 11 2013 23:28 Talin wrote:On July 11 2013 23:24 Plansix wrote:On July 11 2013 23:16 Talin wrote:On July 11 2013 13:23 ForcesEqualZero wrote:
It makes sense to do this from a marketing point of view. This argumentation has been the one singular bane of western esports for the last 10 years, no matter the game. You either get a sport, or you get a show. You don't get both (not by design at least). If you want to watch a sport, the scene and audience needs to get over their obession with faux hype, fake rivalries, scripted storylines, and "marketable" personalities - and only take note of them when and IF they occur naturally as a product of the competition itself. If you want a show, just put 15 foreigners in a team house and make reality TV from it. Way better ROI than a foreigner WCS with half the players playing at a semi-pro level at best. They are not exclusive. They can have hype and also be a sport. Most US sports are able to do both. Marketability is a broad term and shouldn't just be applied to reality TV shows. You can have hype, but not artificially build it up. For example, commentators saying "I'm so pumped for this matchup between two of the best players in the world" during the intro for a match between two mid-tier foreigners - no serious sports commentator does that. If the competition isn't at the foundation and you have to make compromises to be able to sell the show to viewers, then the whole concept is rotten at its very core. On July 11 2013 23:28 theking1 wrote:
Can Romanian football teams play in the MOntenegro football championship?After all the tema that wants to compete in the champions league sould be the best in Europe.. Can football be played online regardless of location? We're not talking about football or [insert random sport here], so it doesn't matter. There are no limitations to video games being a global competition between the best players - other than latency, but that's actually working against the Koreans in our case. Football is also a global competition between players.it is fairly easy to put 15 football players in a bus and camp them somewhere in Montenegro so they can go to champions league form the Montenegro league.Btw why doesn't the premier league or the spanish first leagues allow the same thing?Because they wanna protect their own football scene.The same as na people wanna protect the na scene Why are you talking about football? because footblall and sc2 are both competitions aka sports and in principle they follow the same rules....Now stop dodging the question Doesn't mean you can draw direct analogy between them, no matter how much you insist on it. Starcraft is a video game. That can be played online between people anywhere in the world. It doesn't have the physical limitations of football (a sport where players kick the ball around that was growing in the 19th freaking century). The competition structures are not comparable or analogous in the slightest. I don't want to follow up on incorrect analogies you made up to satisfy your position. If that's dodging to you, then I can't help you with that. ok no football.Then why does GSL,OSL the most prestigious sc2 competitions do not have global online qualifiers???And why does the LCS the most watched esports league do not have online qualifiers and require teams to be present oin the studio? To make it clear offline studio play is a politically correct form of region lock,I just wanna know your oppinion about it.Cause by your logic the gsl and osl are ba dcompetitions since they do not allow the best form around the Earth to compete Blizzard already said that they were going to move towards more offline play for regions. GSL and OSL have had their formats for a while and Blizzard didn't want to piss them off. while I agree they should have online qualifiers, how many foreigners do you expect to join that qualifier?
it took blizzard two years in which na pros where unable to make a living to realize that lan only play is neccessary to increase viewership and to protect the scene.
"how many foreigners do you expect to join that qualifier"
Actually quite a lot considering:
1.the online qulifier would be free
2.They do not have anything to loose.
The reason why gsl and osl do not allow this is because if they would allow an online qulifier there would be a handfull of people form eu,na, and china such as naniwa,Stephano,scarllet.majorDimaga,Lociforn,Vortex,Snute,Thorzain maybe even Huk on a good day who could fill in some places in gsl and osl groups which would turn away the korean audience.That is why.Pure economicla thinking just as it should be in the na wcs scene
@talin
Wrong.They could have simply bough a copy of wol from korea and played on the korean server form that copy  .40$ would not be that much for people like Huk,Thorzain,Stephano,Dimanga,Whitera(who back in wol were oin their prime) and I can include here people like Sheth,Idra and countless other foreigners form wings that I do not remember right now who were good back then and had a realistic chance of at least qualifyig in an online qualifier.Not to mention the beggining of wings when I think Jinro or Idra qualified for gsl semifinals.
For your football example at least those clubs are the best in their country or in their region.
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That doesn't make sense at all.
GOM bent over time and time again to get foreigners to play in the GSL - they opened the house for them, they gave them seeds from foreign tournaments, and even went so far to give them direct Code S seeds. They were allowed in over Korean players that actually deserved it by qualifying. They wanted foreigners so hard that they tried literally everything to have them compete.
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On July 12 2013 00:19 Talin wrote:
That doesn't make sense at all.
GOM bent over time and time again to get foreigners to play in the GSL - they opened the house for them, they gave them seeds from foreign tournaments, and even went so far to give them direct Code S seeds. They were allowed in over Korean players that actually deserved it by qualifying. They wanted foreigners so hard that they tried literally everything to have them compete.
they didn't bend.GOmtv teams had contracts with foreign teams such as ogs-teamliquid or slayers-eg and it was mutual.They got assistance in foreign events and foreigners could share the team house during the gsl.And if you are talking about 1 or 2 seeds that is preety insignificative compared to the dozens of koreans playing on na.
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Loved to see Khaldor and Pig address this in an intelligent way. Our community needs more of this!
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On July 12 2013 00:36 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 00:19 Talin wrote:
That doesn't make sense at all.
GOM bent over time and time again to get foreigners to play in the GSL - they opened the house for them, they gave them seeds from foreign tournaments, and even went so far to give them direct Code S seeds. They were allowed in over Korean players that actually deserved it by qualifying. They wanted foreigners so hard that they tried literally everything to have them compete. they didn't bend.GOmtv teams had contracts with foreign teams such as ogs-teamliquid or slayers-eg and it was mutual.They got assistance in foreign events and foreigners could share the team house during the gsl.And if you are talking about 1 or 2 seeds that is preety insignificative compared to the dozens of koreans playing on na.
Yes and over time, people figured out you can't just "go to Korea" and get better at SC2. Even the Korean players reference how foreigners suffered culture shock and issues with feeling isolated in Korea. Its not just "get your ass to Korea", it is also about good support when you are there, coaching and training.
To be clear, I am not blaming GOM or the teams. People don't know how to get foreigners to train well in Korea and it is clearly more difficult that most people think. Its not just hard work, it is also that the foreigner needs to be prepared for what they are getting into and have the tools to deal with living abroad.
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i dont really ve an opinion on pigs opinion cuz i couldnt care less but i think its great to get such content out there and so thank you khaldor for a job well done.
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good stuff khaldor, your the man
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On July 12 2013 00:19 Talin wrote:
That doesn't make sense at all.
GOM bent over time and time again to get foreigners to play in the GSL - they opened the house for them, they gave them seeds from foreign tournaments, and even went so far to give them direct Code S seeds. They were allowed in over Korean players that actually deserved it by qualifying. They wanted foreigners so hard that they tried literally everything to have them compete.
This is so true...I know they wanted to try and dispel lazy rumors and whatnot, but I don' think this video changed my mind really. Khaldor even talking about the GOM house..paid for living and they are watching movies and sitting around? Seriously?? The bottom line is most of the talented foreigners that knew what it meant to be a progamer and actually followed the korean scene are too old and unmotivated. and the ones that are working hard and doing it right are getting results so I really dont even see the problem at this point.
The biggest thing that will help is foreign teams and top players in regions working together and practicing together and motivate each other to adopt serious approaches to starcraft like TLO Mana Sase Naniwa do. And its happening, it just needs patience and not to have 1834343 discussions about how we can get foreigners to beat koreans.
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You guys do know that practically all Korean tournaments require people to be in Korea to participate in? From WCS qualifiers to their new Dota 2 leagues to GSL... I don't see what's so absurd about requiring the same for NA tournaments.
EDIT: in theory, that is. I understand that players from countries with no qualifiers have to be allowed to play in NA.
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Thank you for the energy and time you put into all these content pieces @Khaldor~
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Thanks Khaldor! And thank you also PiG!
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On July 12 2013 01:23 Azarkon wrote:
You guys do know that practically all Korean tournaments require people to be in Korea to participate in? From WCS qualifiers to their new Dota 2 leagues to GSL... I don't see what's so absurd about requiring the same for NA tournaments.
EDIT: in theory, that is. I understand that players from countries with no qualifiers have to be allowed to play in NA.
Having to play qualifers offline would be a major setback for players in NA and EU aswell. Korea is far smaller than both EU and NA, not to mention that more than 20% of the population lives in Seoul or Incheon. Having to travel to Seoul to play a qualifer is far easier to any South Korean than it is for Europeans or Americans.
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On July 12 2013 01:52 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 01:23 Azarkon wrote:
You guys do know that practically all Korean tournaments require people to be in Korea to participate in? From WCS qualifiers to their new Dota 2 leagues to GSL... I don't see what's so absurd about requiring the same for NA tournaments.
EDIT: in theory, that is. I understand that players from countries with no qualifiers have to be allowed to play in NA. Having to play qualifers offline would be a major setback for players in NA and EU aswell. Korea is far smaller than both EU and NA, not to mention that more than 20% of the population lives in Seoul or Incheon. Having to travel to Seoul to play a qualifer is far easier to any South Korean than it is for Europeans or Americans.
I think what you're missing is that the whole system of WCS, where WCS NA is online and open to all, WCS EU is online and open to all, but WCS Korea is offline and open to only people who are physically in Korea, is fundamentally biased towards Koreans in the first place. The question you have to ask is - why doesn't Korea ever run online qualifiers open to people from the rest of the world? Why doesn't the WCS organizing committee make a WCS Asia equivalent to NA and EU?
I don't think it matters in SC 2, but in games where Koreans are behind in - ie LoL back in 2011, Dota 2 today - it's telling that they don't have a single team from outside of Korea in their qualifiers / leagues system except those they choose to invite themselves. I don't want to call it protectionism, but it does have the same effect.
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On July 11 2013 12:25 Kyaaaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 10:08 intense555 wrote:
It literally isn't fair for koreans to play in WCS EU or WCS AM unless they live there full time. Might as well kcik out all the Australians and Chinese then also.
They don't have a region, so I feel and exception could be made.
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On July 12 2013 02:16 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 01:52 Prog455 wrote:On July 12 2013 01:23 Azarkon wrote:
You guys do know that practically all Korean tournaments require people to be in Korea to participate in? From WCS qualifiers to their new Dota 2 leagues to GSL... I don't see what's so absurd about requiring the same for NA tournaments.
EDIT: in theory, that is. I understand that players from countries with no qualifiers have to be allowed to play in NA. Having to play qualifers offline would be a major setback for players in NA and EU aswell. Korea is far smaller than both EU and NA, not to mention that more than 20% of the population lives in Seoul or Incheon. Having to travel to Seoul to play a qualifer is far easier to any South Korean than it is for Europeans or Americans. I think what you're missing is that the whole system of WCS, where WCS NA is online and open to all, WCS EU is online and open to all, but WCS Korea is offline and open to only people who are physically in Korea, is fundamentally biased towards Koreans in the first place. The question you have to ask is - why doesn't Korea ever run online qualifiers open to people from the rest of the world? Why doesn't the WCS organizing committee make a WCS Asia equivalent to NA and EU? I don't think it matters in SC 2, but in games where Koreans are behind in - ie LoL back in 2011, Dota 2 today - it's telling that they don't have a single team from outside of Korea in their qualifiers / leagues system except those they choose to invite themselves. I don't want to call it protectionism, but it does have the same effect.
I think what you are missing is that you can't compare Korea to NA or EU. Do we really hate Koreans so much that we'd happily hurt our own scene, as long as we can give the Koreans a hard time.
I know that it is harder for people in EU or NA to qualify in Korea than vice versa, but having offline qualifiers in each region will not only make it harder for Koreans to qualify in NA, but also for AMERICANS to qualify in NA.
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On July 12 2013 02:33 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 02:16 Azarkon wrote:On July 12 2013 01:52 Prog455 wrote:On July 12 2013 01:23 Azarkon wrote:
You guys do know that practically all Korean tournaments require people to be in Korea to participate in? From WCS qualifiers to their new Dota 2 leagues to GSL... I don't see what's so absurd about requiring the same for NA tournaments.
EDIT: in theory, that is. I understand that players from countries with no qualifiers have to be allowed to play in NA. Having to play qualifers offline would be a major setback for players in NA and EU aswell. Korea is far smaller than both EU and NA, not to mention that more than 20% of the population lives in Seoul or Incheon. Having to travel to Seoul to play a qualifer is far easier to any South Korean than it is for Europeans or Americans. I think what you're missing is that the whole system of WCS, where WCS NA is online and open to all, WCS EU is online and open to all, but WCS Korea is offline and open to only people who are physically in Korea, is fundamentally biased towards Koreans in the first place. The question you have to ask is - why doesn't Korea ever run online qualifiers open to people from the rest of the world? Why doesn't the WCS organizing committee make a WCS Asia equivalent to NA and EU? I don't think it matters in SC 2, but in games where Koreans are behind in - ie LoL back in 2011, Dota 2 today - it's telling that they don't have a single team from outside of Korea in their qualifiers / leagues system except those they choose to invite themselves. I don't want to call it protectionism, but it does have the same effect. I think what you are missing is that you can't compare Korea to NA or EU. Do we really hate Koreans so much that we'd happily hurt our own scene, as long as we can give the Koreans a hard time. I know that it is harder for people in EU or NA to qualify in Korea than vice versa, but having offline qualifiers in each region will not only make it harder for Koreans to qualify in NA, but also for AMERICANS to qualify in NA.
Given that no American has yet qualified in WCS NA, I don't think that's a problem we face, is it?
But never mind. NA SC 2 is already done; I was responding to the idea that region locking NA is racist, when Koreans do the same thing with their offline requirement.
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On July 12 2013 02:33 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 02:16 Azarkon wrote:On July 12 2013 01:52 Prog455 wrote:On July 12 2013 01:23 Azarkon wrote:
You guys do know that practically all Korean tournaments require people to be in Korea to participate in? From WCS qualifiers to their new Dota 2 leagues to GSL... I don't see what's so absurd about requiring the same for NA tournaments.
EDIT: in theory, that is. I understand that players from countries with no qualifiers have to be allowed to play in NA. Having to play qualifers offline would be a major setback for players in NA and EU aswell. Korea is far smaller than both EU and NA, not to mention that more than 20% of the population lives in Seoul or Incheon. Having to travel to Seoul to play a qualifer is far easier to any South Korean than it is for Europeans or Americans. I think what you're missing is that the whole system of WCS, where WCS NA is online and open to all, WCS EU is online and open to all, but WCS Korea is offline and open to only people who are physically in Korea, is fundamentally biased towards Koreans in the first place. The question you have to ask is - why doesn't Korea ever run online qualifiers open to people from the rest of the world? Why doesn't the WCS organizing committee make a WCS Asia equivalent to NA and EU? I don't think it matters in SC 2, but in games where Koreans are behind in - ie LoL back in 2011, Dota 2 today - it's telling that they don't have a single team from outside of Korea in their qualifiers / leagues system except those they choose to invite themselves. I don't want to call it protectionism, but it does have the same effect. I think what you are missing is that you can't compare Korea to NA or EU. Do we really hate Koreans so much that we'd happily hurt our own scene, as long as we can give the Koreans a hard time. I know that it is harder for people in EU or NA to qualify in Korea than vice versa, but having offline qualifiers in each region will not only make it harder for Koreans to qualify in NA, but also for AMERICANS to qualify in NA.
I do not think you realize that in a fair competition everybody plays by the same rules because everybody is equal.If wcs is to have any credibility all players should be subjected to the same rules.You can not have some play only and some offline and claim it is a fait competition.If anything it is racist towards the foreigners but who care about them right?
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EPT
