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I tried to break it down a bit... they talk about A LOT of topics and segue in and out of several quite seamlessly. Also tried to add links to the time stamps but it was not cooperating so you're gonna have to move the time slider yourself 
0:00 Introduction referencing PiG's reply to a thread called "Foreigners and their invisible handicap". PiG talks about wanting to dispel rumours about salaries and laziness etc.
1:25 Salaries and living costs of foreigners compared to Koreans. Khaldor summarises it nicely at 5:00.
5:30 Opportunities for players to make a name for themselves. Segues into motivation to improve for foreigners vs koreans as well
10:00 Infrastructure. Will better infrastructure help the foreign scene? PiG also talks about the importance of having proper practice partners.
12:10 The importance of a training schedule & discipline, and the problem of time zones in eSports
13:50 What would you do if you led a team house? Focus on the really established players or the up-and-comers with a lot of dedication?
16:00 PiG recounts his time staying in the Prime House last year. Khaldor talks about motivation in the GOM House.
19:10 Training partners in the foreign scene
22:55 Team academies
24:00 What is the best way for up and comers to get their name out there and get recognised?
25:55 Salary/earnings for those at the top compared to everyone else
27:45 Should we expect the players who are already at the top to be able to compete with Koreans? Should people expect the top players to move to Korea?
31:45 Korean team houses don't really want to accept foreign players right now (for multiple reasons)
33:00 The importance for up and comers to get support to improve and be nurtured
34:25 The onus on foreigners to stream compared to Koreans
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On July 11 2013 11:08 hyunseung wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 10:08 intense555 wrote:
It literally isn't fair for koreans to play in WCS EU or WCS AM unless they live there full time. It's literally discrimination to not let persons of a certain nationality play in a qualifying tournament. Are you mad that Koreans are always on top? To have a tournament specifically set up to allow lower tier players to win is downright dumb and just shows obviously bias towards Korean players.
He didn't say Koreans can't play in the tournament, he said they have to move to the place where the tournament is taking place in order to play. It makes sense to do this from a marketing point of view. In case you haven't seen the numbers, the qualifiers have struggled to reach 10k viewers on twitch. Frankly, not too many people seem to care. Is this good for the scene? Wcs am is going to have a bunch of Korean players, and oh, by the way, kespa is starting a LoL league. Do you see where this is going for SC2?
OK, so back on the topic. Foreigner wise, wcs am has 2 american hopefulls left in the final qualifier: Shew and Elige, both from clarity gaming. Now, cg does have a team house, and I know elige is there, and shew may be as well, and so perhaps we are seeing the benefit from that. Not knowing the specifics of cg's financials, I do not think CG pays much, if at all, please say so if I'm wrong. So here is what we are talking about: how do we expect players who are paid very little to compete against full time, paid professionals? If cg gets a house and benefits from it, what of the other teams (complexity, quantic, etc etc) that do not? How do we expect their players to ever come close to competing with korean pros?
Let's tie this all together. Let's say I am running Complexity gaming. I have some good talent, like qxc, hendralisk, and sasquatch. They certainly can compete amongst foreigners, but if they want to play in wcs, they'll need lots of support. A team house, maybe some money so they can make ends meet to train, etc. And they'll participate in this tournament that gets 9k viewers and gives virtually zero exposure to our sponsors, and they will still be an underdog to qualify. If I am running complexity, how do I justify supporting these players, particularly when I can support a LoL scene that has more viewers and a huge upside if we get into LCS. Which is region locked, I might add, in case you want to get all offended and tell riot that they are discriminating against Koreans.
The story ends like this: complexity has a house for their american LoL players, who get to scrim together while they try to get a spot in next season's LCS. American SC2 players get very little support comparatively because it is a very risky proposition to try to get them in to wcs, and even if they get into challenger, just wait until they see the groups.
Who benefits? Koreans teams, apparently, although I have no clue what they plan to do from here. Their fans and sponsors are mostly Korean. They probably don't care, frankly, if anyone watches the wcs, they just want wcs points. Sc2 viewership in america will stay the same or decrease, while LoL's popularity continues to increase. And did I mention kespa is starting a pro league for LoL? Don't pretend that the decline of sc2 in america will not affect korea...
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On July 11 2013 13:23 ForcesEqualZero wrote:
OK, so back on the topic. Foreigner wise, wcs am has 2 american hopefulls left in the final qualifier: Shew and Elige, both from clarity gaming. Now, cg does have a team house, and I know elige is there, and shew may be as well, and so perhaps we are seeing the benefit from that. Not knowing the specifics of cg's financials, I do not think CG pays much, if at all, please say so if I'm wrong. So here is what we are talking about: how do we expect players who are paid very little to compete against full time, paid professionals? If cg gets a house and benefits from it, what of the other teams (complexity, quantic, etc etc) that do not? How do we expect their players to ever come close to competing with korean pros?
They don't pay their players and the North American players have to pay the team money to live in the "team house."
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On July 11 2013 11:08 hyunseung wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 10:08 intense555 wrote:
It literally isn't fair for koreans to play in WCS EU or WCS AM unless they live there full time. It's literally discrimination to not let persons of a certain nationality play in a qualifying tournament. Are you mad that Koreans are always on top? To have a tournament specifically set up to allow lower tier players to win is downright dumb and just shows obviously bias towards Korean players.
To be perfectly honest, koreans don't make for a good show. Of course Polt may be an exception to this, but the majority of the players are faceless, at least to the foreign community. I would rather watch a game with a storyline and a rivalry than the best play in the world, simple as that. To someone who doesn't know starcraft, it's much easier to explain "IdrA flipped off HuK at MLG, and called him a trash player", than to try and explain the beauty and intricacy of korean play. There is a time and place for both, but right now, there isn't any representation of the first scenario.
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Great post ForcesEqualsZero, those are my thoughts as well. Also the constant racism calls are dragging down the scene, don't need to be paraded out for all to see after the first Koreans shouldn't play Americans post.
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On July 11 2013 14:01 9-BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 11:08 hyunseung wrote:On July 11 2013 10:08 intense555 wrote:
It literally isn't fair for koreans to play in WCS EU or WCS AM unless they live there full time. It's literally discrimination to not let persons of a certain nationality play in a qualifying tournament. Are you mad that Koreans are always on top? To have a tournament specifically set up to allow lower tier players to win is downright dumb and just shows obviously bias towards Korean players. To be perfectly honest, koreans don't make for a good show. Of course Polt may be an exception to this, but the majority of the players are faceless, at least to the foreign community. I would rather watch a game with a storyline and a rivalry than the best play in the world, simple as that. To someone who doesn't know starcraft, it's much easier to explain "IdrA flipped off HuK at MLG, and called him a trash player", than to try and explain the beauty and intricacy of korean play. There is a time and place for both, but right now, there isn't any representation of the first scenario.
Thats your opinion, which is as meaningless as mine. The argument gets so old. No Koreans are not faceless, actually most Koreans I know and follow are nothing but amazing as person and player. What storyline do I get between State and Kane? Is 'IdrA flipped HuK at MLG' really a storyline for you?
If you get hyped by that, you should go to see wrestling instead of Starcraft, because it seems you clearly don't enjoy the game? I can say that I personally enjoy Starcraft and seeing it played well, Koreans do deliver those terms and I'll happily cheer for any foreigner that can match them in that term, other than that, no.
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On July 11 2013 14:36 DeathProfessor wrote:
Great post ForcesEqualsZero, those are my thoughts as well. Also the constant racism calls are dragging down the scene, don't need to be paraded out for all to see after the first Koreans shouldn't play Americans post.
There's a ton of back handed racism that goes around in TL against the Eastern scene in alot of games for whatever reason.
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Canada16217 Posts
Thanks for the interview Khaldor! =D
Great content as well.
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Khaldor hwaitiiing 
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On July 11 2013 15:58 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:01 9-BiT wrote:On July 11 2013 11:08 hyunseung wrote:On July 11 2013 10:08 intense555 wrote:
It literally isn't fair for koreans to play in WCS EU or WCS AM unless they live there full time. It's literally discrimination to not let persons of a certain nationality play in a qualifying tournament. Are you mad that Koreans are always on top? To have a tournament specifically set up to allow lower tier players to win is downright dumb and just shows obviously bias towards Korean players. To be perfectly honest, koreans don't make for a good show. Of course Polt may be an exception to this, but the majority of the players are faceless, at least to the foreign community. I would rather watch a game with a storyline and a rivalry than the best play in the world, simple as that. To someone who doesn't know starcraft, it's much easier to explain "IdrA flipped off HuK at MLG, and called him a trash player", than to try and explain the beauty and intricacy of korean play. There is a time and place for both, but right now, there isn't any representation of the first scenario. Thats your opinion, which is as meaningless as mine. The argument gets so old. No Koreans are not faceless, actually most Koreans I know and follow are nothing but amazing as person and player. What storyline do I get between State and Kane? Is 'IdrA flipped HuK at MLG' really a storyline for you? If you get hyped by that, you should go to see wrestling instead of Starcraft, because it seems you clearly don't enjoy the game? I can say that I personally enjoy Starcraft and seeing it played well, Koreans do deliver those terms and I'll happily cheer for any foreigner that can match them in that term, other than that, no.
Actually, it seems instead of wrestling, we go watch LoL. I open up USA Today (a nationwide newspaper here in the US), and what is on the front page of the website? A full article on LoL You know, the players tweet the results of scrims, they stream on american websites, they show up at events like E3 to support their sponsors, need I go on?
I enjoy Starcraft and seeing it played well. I want it to succeed, particularly here in America. But sponsorship money, fan support, all that is leaking toward a different game, and the point I am making is that this is bad for SC2. There is only so much of the esports pie to go around. Surely, I'm not the only one who sees this coming, am I?
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I just want to watch the best Starcraft possible; if that is Korean vs Korean all the time, so be it.
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On July 11 2013 10:08 intense555 wrote:
It literally isn't fair for koreans to play in WCS EU or WCS AM unless they live there full time.
It's quite a stupid statement, without taking everything into consideration. Korea, Europe and NA is obviously the only regions developed enough to have their own WCS region, but there are other regions that you will then completely disregard. in Europe you would disregard Africa(currently just 1 person though)
and in NA you would disregard all of china, oceanic region and Australia/New Zealand.
Yea, especially for NA it wasn't too great, since not a single american advanced, koreans and other foreigners, but those lesser regions if you will also need to have a chance. You could make a smaller tournament which is all online and combined for all the smaller regions, and then give them less prize money and less seeds for season finals, which would technically be fair, but they would lack exposure quite significantly because this tournament would be less attractive as a viewer to watch and I don't think this would be fair towards them either.
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On July 11 2013 11:18 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 11:08 hyunseung wrote:On July 11 2013 10:08 intense555 wrote:
It literally isn't fair for koreans to play in WCS EU or WCS AM unless they live there full time. It's literally discrimination to not let persons of a certain nationality play in a qualifying tournament. Are you mad that Koreans are always on top? To have a tournament specifically set up to allow lower tier players to win is downright dumb and just shows obviously bias towards Korean players. Should people from the US be on Brazil's swim team for the Olympics?
Actually about 40 non-citizens competed for the US in London. It was also controversial that Maria Sharapova played for Russia, despite the fact that she has lived more than half her life in the US and is a US citizen.
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On July 11 2013 12:31 winthrop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:25 Kyaaaaa wrote:On July 11 2013 10:08 intense555 wrote:
It literally isn't fair for koreans to play in WCS EU or WCS AM unless they live there full time. Might as well kcik out all the Australians and Chinese then also. Absolutely true
You're right, what the hell are all these Australians and Chinese doing in WCS AM? They should just compete in WCS SEA and WCS China... oh wait.
-_-
OT: Thank you for the great content, Khaldor!
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On July 11 2013 22:24 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:31 winthrop wrote:On July 11 2013 12:25 Kyaaaaa wrote:On July 11 2013 10:08 intense555 wrote:
It literally isn't fair for koreans to play in WCS EU or WCS AM unless they live there full time. Might as well kcik out all the Australians and Chinese then also. Absolutely true You're right, what the hell are all these Australians and Chinese doing in WCS AM? They should just compete in WCS SEA and WCS China... oh wait. -_- OT: Thank you for the great content, Khaldor!
Technically, it would be WCS Asia, like it was last year. But that's farcical when you have to go to 9-12th place to find a non-Korean. Which is all but one of the Koreans in the tournament.
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On July 11 2013 11:18 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 11:08 hyunseung wrote:On July 11 2013 10:08 intense555 wrote:
It literally isn't fair for koreans to play in WCS EU or WCS AM unless they live there full time. It's literally discrimination to not let persons of a certain nationality play in a qualifying tournament. Are you mad that Koreans are always on top? To have a tournament specifically set up to allow lower tier players to win is downright dumb and just shows obviously bias towards Korean players. Should people from the US be on Brazil's swim team for the Olympics?
Should Swiss player be allowed to play in the US-Open at Flushing Meadows ?
or do you think that 'US'-open means that only US player should be allow to compete at this tournament?
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On July 11 2013 21:45 Firestorm wrote:
I just want to watch the best Starcraft possible; if that is Korean vs Korean all the time, so be it.
You must agree that the viewership of the wcs am qualifiers has been low, yes? I we establish that, how do you think we can say that most viewers agree with your opinion? I am not saying your opinion is wrong in some way, I'm saying it seems most people don't agree.
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I'm not sure how to react to this video because the one in the other thread with Nada, Yellow, and Nalra seemed to have a very similar experience. They didn't talk about their success in the context of having huge support in a team and coaches and discussions, they emphasized pushing through great adversities and doing what they wanted.
I think the "foreigners are lazy" line gets exaggerated, but it is hard to argue too much since GOM closed the foreigner house essentially because people who stayed there were lazy.
The whole infrastructure thing boils down to Starcraft has professionalized itself in Korea and many foreigners don't have the same attitude.
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On July 11 2013 10:27 Khaldor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 10:08 intense555 wrote:
It literally isn't fair for koreans to play in WCS EU or WCS AM unless they live there full time. Hm I disagree to a certain extent. The new system rewards skill and I think right now nobody would doubt that the Koreans are the best players. So they also deserve to have the success. But there are definitely some downsides to it. I actually did a video on that at the end of Season1 if you are interested:
There is no such thing as deserving success. You either achieve or you don't.
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On July 11 2013 13:23 ForcesEqualZero wrote:
He didn't say Koreans can't play in the tournament, he said they have to move to the place where the tournament is taking place in order to play.
You're not familiar with your country immigration policy are you ?
For all intent and purpose, requiring 'residency' is the same as banning them... beside it is WCS-AM not WCS-US... so the specific 'country' where the tournament takes place is irrelevant...
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EPT
