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On July 20 2013 09:55 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 09:51 Die4Ever wrote:On July 20 2013 09:46 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 09:36 Die4Ever wrote:On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
[quote]
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though  + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different. Also think about it this way. If you don't win the tournament (most of your examples are about winners), then the player that you lose to was most likely the toughest you faced in that tournament. So now look at every tournament run that didn't end in a win and you will see a VERY high tendency that the last player they faced(the one they lost to) was tougher than most of the players they faced earlier in the tournament. edit: arguing that what he said isn't true 100% of the time isn't a very good argument. How is that an argument? Obviously sometimes you'll play your hardest competition in the finals. I never said that you wouldn't. I mean, do you want me to do some pain-staking research and list every example of when someone's faced easier opponents in subsequent rounds? I listed a few of them to show that it doesn't always happen like that. Obviously there are tons more. If sometimes the competition gets stronger as you go through the individual tournament, then it supports his point, because that doesn't happen at all in proleague regular season, it's just random. + Show Spoiler +And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. "In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated" I never argued against the competition in Proleague remaining mostly the same. I just said that it's not the case that you always play harder players in individual leagues as you advance.
I think you're nitpicking his wording. Add in the word "usually" to what he said and his argument is essentially the same. Can we please move on from arguing over a single missing word that has nothing to do with anything?
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On July 20 2013 09:57 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 09:55 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 09:51 Die4Ever wrote:On July 20 2013 09:46 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 09:36 Die4Ever wrote:On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:[quote] lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) [quote] On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different. Also think about it this way. If you don't win the tournament (most of your examples are about winners), then the player that you lose to was most likely the toughest you faced in that tournament. So now look at every tournament run that didn't end in a win and you will see a VERY high tendency that the last player they faced(the one they lost to) was tougher than most of the players they faced earlier in the tournament. edit: arguing that what he said isn't true 100% of the time isn't a very good argument. How is that an argument? Obviously sometimes you'll play your hardest competition in the finals. I never said that you wouldn't. I mean, do you want me to do some pain-staking research and list every example of when someone's faced easier opponents in subsequent rounds? I listed a few of them to show that it doesn't always happen like that. Obviously there are tons more. If sometimes the competition gets stronger as you go through the individual tournament, then it supports his point, because that doesn't happen at all in proleague regular season, it's just random. + Show Spoiler +And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. "In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated" I never argued against the competition in Proleague remaining mostly the same. I just said that it's not the case that you always play harder players in individual leagues as you advance. I think you're nitpicking his wording. Add in the word "usually" to what he said and his argument is essentially the same. Can we please move on from arguing over a single missing word that has nothing to do with anything?
Lol yeah I've already admitted to saying that I meant that there's a tendency toward things getting more difficult. Of course it isn't a guarantee. All of my other points still stand as far as I know. When I've typed as many words as I've already contributed to this topic it's hard to not have some little technical slipups xD
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On July 20 2013 09:53 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 09:40 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 09:31 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote:So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do? Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork  , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level. At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova. And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague. I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant. I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different. I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration. Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment? But I'm not saying that you should only look at the OSL/GSL. I'm saying that individual leagues and Proleague should be considered EQUALLY. That's what I've always been advocating for, and that's the policy that I'm trying to call for with the arguments that I'm making. And yes, if you're in the Ro8 of the OSL or WCS Korea then I think you deserve just as much weight on a Power Rank as you'd get if you had a nice string of wins in Proleague, especially if you've already established yourself as a Code S regular.
Ok, but the Ro8 participants have only just been decided. For this power rank, only the Ro32 results were in. Five of the players on the list made it to the Ro16, the bottom three aren't in WCS KR, and sOs just made it to the previous GSL semi-finals and the season finals. Given that you could only really make an argument for a single person making it on just because of Proleague, it's really not as much of an issue as people are making it out to be.
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On July 20 2013 09:57 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 09:55 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 09:51 Die4Ever wrote:On July 20 2013 09:46 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 09:36 Die4Ever wrote:On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:[quote] lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) [quote] On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different. Also think about it this way. If you don't win the tournament (most of your examples are about winners), then the player that you lose to was most likely the toughest you faced in that tournament. So now look at every tournament run that didn't end in a win and you will see a VERY high tendency that the last player they faced(the one they lost to) was tougher than most of the players they faced earlier in the tournament. edit: arguing that what he said isn't true 100% of the time isn't a very good argument. How is that an argument? Obviously sometimes you'll play your hardest competition in the finals. I never said that you wouldn't. I mean, do you want me to do some pain-staking research and list every example of when someone's faced easier opponents in subsequent rounds? I listed a few of them to show that it doesn't always happen like that. Obviously there are tons more. If sometimes the competition gets stronger as you go through the individual tournament, then it supports his point, because that doesn't happen at all in proleague regular season, it's just random. + Show Spoiler +And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. "In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated" I never argued against the competition in Proleague remaining mostly the same. I just said that it's not the case that you always play harder players in individual leagues as you advance. I think you're nitpicking his wording. Add in the word "usually" to what he said and his argument is essentially the same. Can we please move on from arguing over a single missing word that has nothing to do with anything?
Not nitpicking at all, given that a lot of people on here have that actual mindset. Yeah, it was resolved with him a while ago; you're the one who stepped in and started arguing it.
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On July 20 2013 10:04 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 09:53 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 09:40 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 09:31 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
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I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different. I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration. Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment? But I'm not saying that you should only look at the OSL/GSL. I'm saying that individual leagues and Proleague should be considered EQUALLY. That's what I've always been advocating for, and that's the policy that I'm trying to call for with the arguments that I'm making. And yes, if you're in the Ro8 of the OSL or WCS Korea then I think you deserve just as much weight on a Power Rank as you'd get if you had a nice string of wins in Proleague, especially if you've already established yourself as a Code S regular. Ok, but the Ro8 participants have only just been decided. For this power rank, only the Ro32 results were in. Five of the players on the list made it to the Ro16, the bottom three aren't in WCS KR, and sOs just made it to the previous GSL semi-finals and the season finals. Given that you could only really make an argument for a single person making it on just because of Proleague, it's really not as much of an issue as people are making it out to be.
Yeah that's true. A lot of the stuff I've been saying has been more directed toward what I feel the future Power Rank criteria should be, and toward voicing my disagreements with the arguments people have been making for why Proleague results should be favored above others.
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Nobody ever said Proleague records should be favored. As you said, Proleague records and OSL/GSL records should be (and actually are) equal. Again, Proleague just has more games. And don't tell me, you think Maru and Supernova belong into list of 10 strongest players right now, just because they are in Ro8. God forbid if Trap would be the one making it out of that group (only one game that could go differently) - he is so bad..
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Bomber's the best in the world now because he won a couple of Bo3's? Ok.
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On July 20 2013 16:45 Ammanas wrote:
Nobody ever said Proleague records should be favored. As you said, Proleague records and OSL/GSL records should be (and actually are) equal. Again, Proleague just has more games.
Haha, that´s a bold statement to make. Also, if you mean by this giving single games of WCS and PL the same weight, then you did not understand HolyArrows point. It was that the many games of PL should not be rated over the fewer games of individual leagues. If you go by pure numbers, then the whole PR would be kespa players, because they have the (exclusive!) opportunity to play that many televised games. But that wouldn´t make sense, because in actually open competitions there are plenty of non-kespa players who perform equally well or better.
It´s sad, but I think it´s natural to rate more visible players higher. It´s the intuitive thing to do, but it leads to a onesided power rank. So yeah, I agree with previous posters in that future power ranks should rate the performance in individual leagues higher. And I believe that closed competition like that should not be promoted further. It´s bad enough for Starcraft as is.
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I want Soulkey to beat Innovation in the quarters to cast doubt on the PR again! Bwahahaahaha!
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On July 20 2013 17:58 monkybone wrote:
Mvp is oddly placed. He definitely above Rain, SoS and jangbi. Polt is as well. But kespa bias is to be expected here.
However, this list has to be completely revised after the ro16. Where is bomber, atm he is at the very top of the world. Symbol too, not even in light of recent events, it is quite scandalous that he is not even in the list here. Instead we have players who are hardly competing in individual events.
Personally I think individual events should carry a lot more weight. It is more a reflection of a particular players skill, rather than a team. Let proleague and gstl determine the best team, and GSL/OSL and weekend events the best player.
It will be revised. On August 1st. Why should Bomber be in JUNE power rank, when he lost almost everything he touched in June.
On July 20 2013 19:04 Daswollvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 16:45 Ammanas wrote:
Nobody ever said Proleague records should be favored. As you said, Proleague records and OSL/GSL records should be (and actually are) equal. Again, Proleague just has more games. Haha, that´s a bold statement to make. Also, if you mean by this giving single games of WCS and PL the same weight, then you did not understand HolyArrows point. It was that the many games of PL should not be rated over the fewer games of individual leagues. If you go by pure numbers, then the whole PR would be kespa players, because they have the (exclusive!) opportunity to play that many televised games. But that wouldn´t make sense, because in actually open competitions there are plenty of non-kespa players who perform equally well or better. It´s sad, but I think it´s natural to rate more visible players higher. It´s the intuitive thing to do, but it leads to a onesided power rank. So yeah, I agree with previous posters in that future power ranks should rate the performance in individual leagues higher. And I believe that closed competition like that should not be promoted further. It´s bad enough for Starcraft as is.
Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both.
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On July 20 2013 19:55 Ammanas wrote:
Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both.
Because said individual leagues are open competitions, where the best from the complete player pool advance, instead of one section of players, competing amongst themselves.
EDIT: You could compare it to football, where the most prestigious win is not that of a national league, but of the champions league, where essentially the best (though European only, but SC right now is pretty much Korean only in Korea) compete.
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On July 20 2013 19:55 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 19:04 Daswollvieh wrote:On July 20 2013 16:45 Ammanas wrote:
Nobody ever said Proleague records should be favored. As you said, Proleague records and OSL/GSL records should be (and actually are) equal. Again, Proleague just has more games. Haha, that´s a bold statement to make. Also, if you mean by this giving single games of WCS and PL the same weight, then you did not understand HolyArrows point. It was that the many games of PL should not be rated over the fewer games of individual leagues. If you go by pure numbers, then the whole PR would be kespa players, because they have the (exclusive!) opportunity to play that many televised games. But that wouldn´t make sense, because in actually open competitions there are plenty of non-kespa players who perform equally well or better. It´s sad, but I think it´s natural to rate more visible players higher. It´s the intuitive thing to do, but it leads to a onesided power rank. So yeah, I agree with previous posters in that future power ranks should rate the performance in individual leagues higher. And I believe that closed competition like that should not be promoted further. It´s bad enough for Starcraft as is. Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both.
Practice games... the sample size of those would completely roll over any proleague stat if we had access to them.
Of course the only thing that matters is
you, your opponent and the quality of play of both
But then you have to take a closer look than "he performed so well in proleague"-->some stats.
Which for example means that Fantasies 5-2 stats in Proleague Round 6 don't mean a lot, because he only went 1-1 against fellow premier league players (won one game against Flash. Lost one game against InNovation). So the number of really challenging games for him in proleague is 2. The other 5games are just a Code S player (which there are 32 of that are expected to perform similarily in the same situation) against a non-Code S player - admittetly, Fantasy is a Ro16 Code S player this season, but that doesn't give the role of the favorite to Snute, Reality... when they had played a different Code S player instead.
Meanwhile in premier league he went 3-6. Samplesize of 9. Not to mention that he made it through some qualification process that can only be attented by those who are worthy. Not every player on a Kespateam by getting sent out.
Which - though noone could know how Fantasy would perform in the OSL - just shows of how little importance proleague stats actually are.
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This is another reason why merging PL and GSTL would be amazing for the scene, we could actually get a better sense of how good players really are and be able to construct a more accurate power rank because we could have more games and more data on how players stack up.
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On July 20 2013 19:02 GolemMadness wrote:
Bomber's the best in the world now because he won a couple of Bo3's? Ok.
That's how it works. Overhype then disappointment. Bomber is probably going get 3-0ed in the Ro8 after failing 3 proxy raxes in a row. Or he'll qualify for the Season finals, but get eliminated in the group stages by Americans.
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On July 20 2013 20:59 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 19:55 Ammanas wrote:
Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both. In a team match strategy is more of a team effort, it`s in the bo3´s and bo5´s where the real quality of 1v1 strategy comes into play. You know that´s the reason for the enigma of IM in teamleagues. There´s also something to be said for the fact that in individual leagues there´s so much more at stake for you as a player, so you will naturally take it more seriously. Besides, it gives you a lot more time to prepare for your opponent, and preparation comes much more into play in a longer series such as bo3 or bo5. In team leagues you will have snipers, who prepare a certain build to beat his opponent. This simplistic way of preparing does not work in a longer series. Everything about individual leagues says so much more of you as a player than teamleagues do.
Kespa players generally take Proleague more seriously than individual leagues. That's how they make their salaries.
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On July 21 2013 01:20 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 19:02 GolemMadness wrote:
Bomber's the best in the world now because he won a couple of Bo3's? Ok. That's how it works. Overhype then disappointment. Bomber is probably going get 3-0ed in the Ro8 after failing 3 proxy raxes in a row. Or he'll qualify for the Season finals, but get eliminated in the group stages by Americans.
That's not even what he said. He said he is on the top of the world right now, which he is, he also added symbol, so you can take the hint he doesn't mean he is the best, but they are right now at the top of the OSL with 6 more players, which is considered the pinnacle of individual leagues, hence top of the world.
I don't care about proleague to be honest, but i don't mind power rankings using it, but seems a bit strange to see teamleague/individual results mixed up. I don't think they should be equal, they should be what they are, different.
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On July 21 2013 07:55 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 20:59 monkybone wrote:On July 20 2013 19:55 Ammanas wrote:
Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both. In a team match strategy is more of a team effort, it`s in the bo3´s and bo5´s where the real quality of 1v1 strategy comes into play. You know that´s the reason for the enigma of IM in teamleagues. There´s also something to be said for the fact that in individual leagues there´s so much more at stake for you as a player, so you will naturally take it more seriously. Besides, it gives you a lot more time to prepare for your opponent, and preparation comes much more into play in a longer series such as bo3 or bo5. In team leagues you will have snipers, who prepare a certain build to beat his opponent. This simplistic way of preparing does not work in a longer series. Everything about individual leagues says so much more of you as a player than teamleagues do. Kespa players generally take Proleague more seriously than individual leagues. That's how they make their salaries.
What a sad excuse. Flash lost because he didn't care. OKAYYYYYYYYYY!
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EPT
