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On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote:So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do? Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork  , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level. At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova. And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague. I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant. I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though  + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
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United States97277 Posts
Wintex, StarVe, and I just went 6-1 in 3v3s. We demand a spot on the power rank.
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BIsu did fine in individual leagues on MBCGame HERO, it's just when SKT bought him they made him focus on team leagues heavily
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On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote:So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do? Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level. At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova. And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague. I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant. I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world
Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold
Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world
Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran
Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate
Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player
Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
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On July 20 2013 08:58 Shellshock1122 wrote:
Wintex, StarVe, and I just went 6-1 in 3v3s. We demand a spot on the power rank.
This is true. Joint 3rd with flash (cause he won a proleague game iirc).
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If there will be a foreign power rank then Dayshi should be #1 because he's at 21-8 and 72% win rate in the ATC. Naniwa can maybe be around 8-10 for his individual runs I think as he has not yet proved himself in the toughest teamleague.
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On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote:So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do? Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level. At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova. And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague. I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant. I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
You're naming exceptions and also not mentioning Code A/challenger or up n down or qualifiers. Not every proleague player is Code S level.
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1 Zerg in 10.
Seems appropriate given current balance.
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United States97277 Posts
On July 20 2013 09:26 _Search_ wrote:
1 Zerg in 10.
Seems appropriate given current balance.
yea poor zerg and their 51% win rate in ZvP and 48% win rate in ZvT
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On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote:So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do? Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level. At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova. And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague. I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant. I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration.
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On July 20 2013 09:25 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote:So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do? Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level. At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova. And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague. I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant. I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different. You're naming exceptions and also not mentioning Code A/challenger or up n down or qualifiers. Not every proleague player is Code S level.
Obviously I'm naming exceptions; that's the whole point to arguing against something always being the case...? I only brought up three examples off the top of my head. I don't pay as much attention to code A, so they weren't the first examples to come to mind.
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On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote:So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do? Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level. At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova. And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague. I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant. I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
Also think about it this way. If you don't win the tournament (most of your examples are about winners), then the player that you lose to was most likely the toughest you faced in that tournament. So now look at every tournament run that didn't end in a win and you will see a VERY high tendency that the last player they faced(the one they lost to) was tougher than most of the players they faced earlier in the tournament.
edit: arguing that what he said isn't true 100% of the time isn't a very good argument.
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On July 20 2013 09:31 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote:So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do? Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level. At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova. And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague. I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant. I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different. I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration.
Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment?
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On July 20 2013 09:40 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 09:31 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote:So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do? Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level. At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova. And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague. I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant. I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different. I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration. Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment?
Power Ranking is a list of the players who are looking the best at the moment. I think he's arguing that they should factor in individual league success a little more than they did for this list.
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On July 20 2013 09:36 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote:So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do? Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level. At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova. And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague. I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant. I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different. Also think about it this way. If you don't win the tournament (most of your examples are about winners), then the player that you lose to was most likely the toughest you faced in that tournament. So now look at every tournament run that didn't end in a win and you will see a VERY high tendency that the last player they faced(the one they lost to) was tougher than most of the players they faced earlier in the tournament. edit: arguing that what he said isn't true 100% of the time isn't a very good argument.
How is that an argument? Obviously sometimes you'll play your hardest competition in the finals. I never said that you wouldn't. I mean, do you want me to do some pain-staking research and list every example of when someone's faced easier opponents in subsequent rounds? I listed a few of them to show that it doesn't always happen like that. Obviously there are tons more.
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On July 20 2013 09:41 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 09:40 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 09:31 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote:So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do? Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level. At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova. And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague. I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant. I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different. I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration. Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment? Power Ranking is a list of the players who are looking the best at the moment. I think he's arguing that they should factor in individual league success a little more than they did for this list.
He said earlier that Proleague shouldn't be considered and that it should be a different power rank entirely. Given that often the top players in the OSL/GSL haven't played in foreign tournaments recently (especially the Kespa players) and the season finals only happen 3 times a year, the list would literally just be who's winning the most games in the OSL/GSL. At least this sparks a lot of discussion and debate; that would just boring and pointless.
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On July 20 2013 09:46 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 09:36 Die4Ever wrote:On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote:So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do? Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level. At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova. And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague. I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant. I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different. Also think about it this way. If you don't win the tournament (most of your examples are about winners), then the player that you lose to was most likely the toughest you faced in that tournament. So now look at every tournament run that didn't end in a win and you will see a VERY high tendency that the last player they faced(the one they lost to) was tougher than most of the players they faced earlier in the tournament. edit: arguing that what he said isn't true 100% of the time isn't a very good argument. How is that an argument? Obviously sometimes you'll play your hardest competition in the finals. I never said that you wouldn't. I mean, do you want me to do some pain-staking research and list every example of when someone's faced easier opponents in subsequent rounds? I listed a few of them to show that it doesn't always happen like that. Obviously there are tons more.
If sometimes the competition gets stronger as you go through the individual tournament, then it supports his point, because that doesn't happen at all in proleague regular season, it's just random.
+ Show Spoiler +And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
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On July 20 2013 09:48 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 09:41 Die4Ever wrote:On July 20 2013 09:40 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 09:31 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
[quote]
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different. I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration. Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment? Power Ranking is a list of the players who are looking the best at the moment. I think he's arguing that they should factor in individual league success a little more than they did for this list. He said earlier that Proleague shouldn't be considered and that it should be a different power rank entirely. Given that often the top players in the OSL/GSL haven't played in foreign tournaments recently (especially the Kespa players) and the season finals only happen 3 times a year, the list would literally just be who's winning the most games in the OSL/GSL. At least this sparks a lot of discussion and debate; that would just boring and pointless.
I don't agree with that either, it should certainly take every tournament into consideration and also the quality of play in games won or lost.
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On July 20 2013 09:40 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 09:31 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote:So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do? Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level. At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova. And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague. I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant. I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different. I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration. Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment?
But I'm not saying that you should only look at the OSL/GSL. I'm saying that individual leagues and Proleague should be considered EQUALLY. That's what I've always been advocating for, and that's the policy that I'm trying to call for with the arguments that I'm making. And yes, if you're in the Ro8 of the OSL or WCS Korea then I think you deserve just as much weight on a Power Rank as you'd get if you had a nice string of wins in Proleague, especially if you've already established yourself as a Code S regular.
On July 20 2013 09:48 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 09:41 Die4Ever wrote:On July 20 2013 09:40 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 09:31 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
[quote]
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different. I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration. Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment? Power Ranking is a list of the players who are looking the best at the moment. I think he's arguing that they should factor in individual league success a little more than they did for this list. He said earlier that Proleague shouldn't be considered and that it should be a different power rank entirely. Given that often the top players in the OSL/GSL haven't played in foreign tournaments recently (especially the Kespa players) and the season finals only happen 3 times a year, the list would literally just be who's winning the most games in the OSL/GSL. At least this sparks a lot of discussion and debate; that would just boring and pointless.
I only suggested that as an alternative to what we have now if people can't figure out a good way to weigh Proleague and individual results evenly because they feel to strongly about the sample size/variance argument that people were discussing earlier. I'd be perfectly fine with a single Power Rank that considers both Individual league and Proleague results if the writers showed less preference toward Proleague results and gave more consideration toward the arguments I've been making.
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On July 20 2013 09:51 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 09:46 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 09:36 Die4Ever wrote:On July 20 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 08:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 08:25 GolemMadness wrote:On July 20 2013 07:41 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 07:32 Ammanas wrote:On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote:
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL.
In short, the PR is rigged lol. + Show Spoiler +(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.) On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote:So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do? Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level. At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova. And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague. I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant. I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before. On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc.. The MLG was a dissapointment though + Show Spoiler [this whole section is just a joke] +(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^) Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague. Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost. Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague. Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill? Nope, not at all. You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair. And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal. Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder? Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win: Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates. Flash's ABC Mart MSL win: Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months. Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different. Also think about it this way. If you don't win the tournament (most of your examples are about winners), then the player that you lose to was most likely the toughest you faced in that tournament. So now look at every tournament run that didn't end in a win and you will see a VERY high tendency that the last player they faced(the one they lost to) was tougher than most of the players they faced earlier in the tournament. edit: arguing that what he said isn't true 100% of the time isn't a very good argument. How is that an argument? Obviously sometimes you'll play your hardest competition in the finals. I never said that you wouldn't. I mean, do you want me to do some pain-staking research and list every example of when someone's faced easier opponents in subsequent rounds? I listed a few of them to show that it doesn't always happen like that. Obviously there are tons more. If sometimes the competition gets stronger as you go through the individual tournament, then it supports his point, because that doesn't happen at all in proleague regular season, it's just random. + Show Spoiler +And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
"In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated"
I never argued against the competition in Proleague remaining mostly the same. I just said that it's not the case that you always play harder players in individual leagues as you advance.
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