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United States8476 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:32 Megiddosc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 13:24 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 13:07 Megiddosc wrote:On July 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote:
If it's more likely to have an upset in a Bo1, doesn't that make players who can win Bo1s consistently even better since they don't lose in a format that's likely to produce an upset (or, in a format that they are less favored in)?' My point boils to this, since you worded it this way. Hydra is listed here as the 5th best player in Proleague. Hydra is in code B. He lost last season in Code A to Avenge. Hydra is great at performing a single build on a single map but he can't pull out wins otherwise. So should I be impressed with Hydra's ability to somewhat consistently win Bo1s if he cannot seem to perform well outside of that circumstance? In terms of KeSPA players, I have really been impressed with those who are on top of this list. But the others haven't done much to impress me, including Fantasy and Jangbi. That liquipedia page isn't updated, actually. And if you look at win percentages, Hydra is only slightly better than average. The list is ordered by number of wins, and not a combination of number of wins and win percentage. Players don't play the same number of games because some matches don't get played (in 4-0s, 4-1s and 4-2s). Hydra has also sucked massive zergballs in HoTS. TL writers didn't just look at that list and decide who is good. They look at recent results, quality of opponents, quality of games, and I'm sure a bunch of x factors. I don't agree Fantasy is Top 10. JangBi is arguable. But your insistence that PL shouldn't count for much because it is Bo1 makes little sense. (although I agree that the amount of PL games played--they basically play more televised games than anyone else--inflates the record and hype of some players) Thanks for the clarification then. Replace Hydra with Zest then. Zest has, according to that list, a 68% win percentage in SPL. Zest is Code B. He has never, as far as I can tell, qualified for Code A. How can that be if he has almost 70% win percentage in the most prestigious team league?
Light said it before. Zest is PvP sniper and got most of his wins from PvP. And just because one of the top players in Proleague isn't in GSL doesn't make Proleague invalid. DRG couldn't qualify for 3 seasons after he was shown to be the king of GSTL.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:27 LighT. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 13:24 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 13:07 Megiddosc wrote:On July 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote:
If it's more likely to have an upset in a Bo1, doesn't that make players who can win Bo1s consistently even better since they don't lose in a format that's likely to produce an upset (or, in a format that they are less favored in)?' My point boils to this, since you worded it this way. Hydra is listed here as the 5th best player in Proleague. Hydra is in code B. He lost last season in Code A to Avenge. Hydra is great at performing a single build on a single map but he can't pull out wins otherwise. So should I be impressed with Hydra's ability to somewhat consistently win Bo1s if he cannot seem to perform well outside of that circumstance? In terms of KeSPA players, I have really been impressed with those who are on top of this list. But the others haven't done much to impress me, including Fantasy and Jangbi. That liquipedia page isn't updated, actually. And if you look at win percentages, Hydra is only slightly better than average. The list is ordered by number of wins, and not a combination of number of wins and win percentage. Players don't play the same number of games because some matches don't get played (in 4-0s, 4-1s and 4-2s). Hydra has also sucked massive zergballs in HoTS. TL writers didn't just look at that list and decide who is good. They look at recent results, quality of opponents, quality of games, and I'm sure a bunch of x factors. I don't agree Fantasy is Top 10. JangBi is arguable. But your insistence that PL shouldn't count for much because it is Bo1 makes little sense. (although I agree that the amount of PL games played--they basically play more televised games than anyone else--inflates the record and hype of some players) Lichter. Dont waste your time. It's so blantantly clear he is completely sour towards the Kespa players. I'm sure youve noticed it.
I don't think he's angry at Kespa players. I just think that he has formulated his opinion in a flawed manner. Because I more or less agree with his conclusion, that Flash's ranking is a bit inflated (but not by much), and that Fantasy and JangBi are not surefire Top 10s yet. But it's not because Proleague is a best of one. Consistency in a best of one--where volatility is higher--is more difficult, hence requiring greater skill. It's because the number of Proleague games--the amount of games that we can scrutinize and the amount of games that can impress us--can (can, because there is only a possibility of it) inflate our opinion of certain players. They play much more games than a lot of Esf pros who only have WCS and GSTL (lol). Since the sample size of a lot of Esf pros is so small, it becomes more difficult to argue their inclusion on the rankings (smaller sample size, greater variance). First dismantled Fantasy, but does that make him better than 7th? Difficult to argue because of the small sample size. The presence of Proleague games makes for a larger sample size for Kespa players, and that's how Proleague can skew these rankings. It's not a matter of format, quality of games or opponents, or anything like that. It's simply a sampling size problem for a lot of other pros.
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How can he be a PvP sniper if you do not know your opponent's race? It could work in the All-Kill situation which allows for snipers. I don't understand how he plays exclusively PvP in the standard SPL format. Although when I've tuned into SPL on the rare occasion, it seems to always be a PvP. So maybe that has something to do with it.
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On July 04 2013 13:25 LighT. wrote:
yea, MVP obviously shouldnt be in Top 10, he lost to Innovation 3-2. Results.
Innovation is obviously not top 10, he lost 3-4 to Soulkey. Results.
Sjow is obviously #1 player, he beat Life 2-1. Results.
Hey look ma, I can cherry pick results too!
MVP and Innovation lost to the number 1and 2 in the world respectively. The is a difference between losing to Innovation 3-2in the semi finals at the wolrd WCS finals and losing to LzGamer 2-0 in the open bracket of an MLG (made up example, did´nt happen to anyone here). Losses are´nt equal.
I think this list is pretty kespa-biased, which is´nt really a surprise, since we see them a lot more often in PL, then we see the ESF-guys in GSTL. Still, I have to wonder, why players like Supernova (2-0 against Parting/Squirtle) or First (2-0 against Leenock/RorO) arent even mentioned, while players that droped out in the ro32 don´t really get affected by that in the ranking.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:38 Megiddosc wrote:
How can he be a PvP sniper if you do not know your opponent's race? It could work in the All-Kill situation which allows for snipers. I don't understand how he plays exclusively PvP in the standard SPL format. Although when I've tuned into SPL on the rare occasion, it seems to always be a PvP. So maybe that has something to do with it.
Many maps in Proleague (Akilon Wastes, Naro Station, Fighting Spirit v1) are P favored so PvPs happen quite a lot. It's pretty easy for KT to seed so that Zest always gets a PvP.
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On July 04 2013 05:03 Nerchio wrote:
I was scrolling down the list to see my nickname on the 1st place only to see my nickname mistaken? How can you spell "Nerchio" as INnoVation
Common mistake. <3
On July 04 2013 06:07 Misacampo wrote:
I wonder why LIQUID taeja placed above ALLIANCE naniwa despite naniwa's WAY superior results in the past month.
Power ranking is not 100% result driven. In BW you could have a slumping Flash (by slumping I mean 70 percent win rate) still be at number 1 simply because he is still the superior player.
On July 04 2013 07:24 Yokwe wrote:Show nested quote +
Fantasy's production tab would often be empty sometimes for literally a minute at a time while he's off doing god knows what, and yet he would go on to win both these games. It's an ability that makes us all question what we're doing wrong in our games and why we're not playing at the top of the top.
Yea, because you totally have better macro than Fantasy I'm sure.
I hope you aren't serious dude. Writer is just making a point of Fantasy's ability to win despite floating at times >.>
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:38 Megiddosc wrote:
How can he be a PvP sniper if you do not know your opponent's race? It could work in the All-Kill situation which allows for snipers. I don't understand how he plays exclusively PvP in the standard SPL format. Although when I've tuned into SPL on the rare occasion, it seems to always be a PvP. So maybe that has something to do with it.
According to your link, P7ZestWooki has played 24 PvPs, and 13 combined vTZ. He sucks at vT and is average at vZ.
Proleague is dominated by Protoss, so it isn't hard to chance on a PvP. Also, some maps are 'favored' for certain races, so those races get played on those maps more often. You also know the probably lineups of your opponent, and their map preferences (historically), so it becomes possible to map pick intelligently to get your preferred matchup.
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Thanks for the clarification monk.
And yeah, I think the volume of games being played definitely skews it in KeSPA's favor. Thanks for vocalizing that aspect much better than I could lichter.
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On July 04 2013 13:38 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 13:27 LighT. wrote:On July 04 2013 13:24 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 13:07 Megiddosc wrote:On July 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote:
If it's more likely to have an upset in a Bo1, doesn't that make players who can win Bo1s consistently even better since they don't lose in a format that's likely to produce an upset (or, in a format that they are less favored in)?' My point boils to this, since you worded it this way. Hydra is listed here as the 5th best player in Proleague. Hydra is in code B. He lost last season in Code A to Avenge. Hydra is great at performing a single build on a single map but he can't pull out wins otherwise. So should I be impressed with Hydra's ability to somewhat consistently win Bo1s if he cannot seem to perform well outside of that circumstance? In terms of KeSPA players, I have really been impressed with those who are on top of this list. But the others haven't done much to impress me, including Fantasy and Jangbi. That liquipedia page isn't updated, actually. And if you look at win percentages, Hydra is only slightly better than average. The list is ordered by number of wins, and not a combination of number of wins and win percentage. Players don't play the same number of games because some matches don't get played (in 4-0s, 4-1s and 4-2s). Hydra has also sucked massive zergballs in HoTS. TL writers didn't just look at that list and decide who is good. They look at recent results, quality of opponents, quality of games, and I'm sure a bunch of x factors. I don't agree Fantasy is Top 10. JangBi is arguable. But your insistence that PL shouldn't count for much because it is Bo1 makes little sense. (although I agree that the amount of PL games played--they basically play more televised games than anyone else--inflates the record and hype of some players) Lichter. Dont waste your time. It's so blantantly clear he is completely sour towards the Kespa players. I'm sure youve noticed it. I don't think he's angry at Kespa players. I just think that he has formulated his opinion in a flawed manner. Because I more or less agree with his conclusion, that Flash's ranking is a bit inflated (but not by much), and that Fantasy and JangBi are not surefire Top 10s yet. But it's not because Proleague is a best of one. Consistency in a best of one--where volatility is higher--is more difficult, hence requiring greater skill. It's because the number of Proleague games--the amount of games that we can scrutinize and the amount of games that can impress us--can (can, because there is only a possibility of it) inflate our opinion of certain players. They play much more games than a lot of Esf pros who only have WCS and GSTL (lol). Since the sample size of a lot of Esf pros is so small, it becomes more difficult to argue their inclusion on the rankings (smaller sample size, greater variance). First dismantled Fantasy, but does that make him better than 7th? Difficult to argue because of the small sample size. The presence of Proleague games makes for a larger sample size for Kespa players, and that's how Proleague can skew these rankings. It's not a matter of format, quality of games or opponents, or anything like that. It's simply a sampling size problem for a lot of other pros.
Sample size is a problem. It is sad really how the GSTL is set up, teams play two matches at most per month.
unsure about #3 spot but Flash is in the same tier as SK/Inno and sHy, in another thread, I posted his achivements thus far in HoTS and hes one of the more consistent players of them all.
As to Jangbi, of course I do love jangbang so my opinion is skewered to favor him but dissecting his overall results through the month of June, its hard to argue against it.
Fantasy, agreed is a question mark for me. He's inconsistent but his results show happier days.
My backlash at the Kespa comment currently resides that he has proven absolutely no circumstantial evidence to back up his point and when he has, he's literally cherry picked only the ones that favor him instead of showing the entire picture.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:42 Megiddosc wrote:
Thanks for the clarification monk.
And yeah, I think the volume of games being played definitely skews it in KeSPA's favor. Thanks for vocalizing that aspect much better than I could lichter.
Yes but you shouldn't blame Proleague or the players for it. Neither should you fault the writer's for favoring players who have played more games. It's a much safer bet to include someone who has played 10 good games over someone who has played 5 good games. It's just the nature of how things are right now that Kespa players get to play more games. Sample sizes are important when trying to come up with a list like this, and the fact is we are more certain of the skill level of Kespa players because we see more of their televised games. Some Esf players might be better, but because they play so few games it is difficult to tell for certain.
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Thank you for the great write-up. I'm quite happy with the rankings as well 
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On July 04 2013 13:39 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 13:25 LighT. wrote:
yea, MVP obviously shouldnt be in Top 10, he lost to Innovation 3-2. Results.
Innovation is obviously not top 10, he lost 3-4 to Soulkey. Results.
Sjow is obviously #1 player, he beat Life 2-1. Results.
Hey look ma, I can cherry pick results too! MVP and Innovation lost to the number 1and 2 in the world respectively. The is a difference between losing to Innovation 3-2in the semi finals at the wolrd WCS finals and losing to LzGamer 2-0 in the open bracket of an MLG (made up example, did´nt happen to anyone here). Losses are´nt equal. I think this list is pretty kespa-biased, which is´nt really a surprise, since we see them a lot more often in PL, then we see the ESF-guys in GSTL. Still, I have to wonder, why players like Supernova (2-0 against Parting/Squirtle) or First (2-0 against Leenock/RorO) arent even mentioned, while players that droped out in the ro32 don´t really get affected by that in the ranking.
It has mostly to do with sample size. Not enough data to suggest First is deserving of a spot but his recent results are sure solidifying his case.
Also of course, I was being sarcastic A better example to better exemplify what the argument would be Soulkey should be a #2 palyer because he lost to a SKT T1 B-teamer in Labyrinth. A guy who has never been on the A-team and shown his face in the SPL.
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Well, there's 6 ESF players in the top 16 of OSL. So they're definitely not trailing KeSPA by much. It'd be 9-7 if you recall that Parting spent the majority of his SC2 career on StarTale and isn't an elephant. Not quite the big disparity yet that some seem to already have set in their mind.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:51 Megiddosc wrote:
Well, there's 6 ESF players in the top 16 of OSL. So they're definitely not trailing KeSPA by much. It'd be 9-7 if you recall that Parting spent the majority of his SC2 career on StarTale and isn't an elephant. Not quite the big disparity yet that some seem to already have set in their mind.
I don't care, at all, about some supposed Esf vs Kespa rivalry. To me it is all about sample size. If GSTL were a more serious and regular tournament (and not always all-kill), I'm certain it would boost the ratings of a lot of Esf players.
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I doubt it. I'm sure the writers would just consider them "mediocre" players like how Curious was described. Despite there not being much difference between the strength of KeSPA/ESF as a whole, the ESF players, despite some being long-time Code S players will be diminished.
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Look at that, Mvp 8th player on Powerrank and highest placing esf player. Its starting to look like a Brood war power rank with all these kespa pros there.
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On July 04 2013 14:01 mnck wrote:
Look at that, Mvp 8th player on Powerrank and highest placing esf player. Its starting to look like a Brood war power rank with all these kespa pros there.
Still..it feels awkward to have a power ranking without jaedong, stork and bisu somewhere in the mix...
Jaedong and Bisu has some possibility to get to the top 10 while Stork looks completely done as a player or..he needs a breath of fresh air.
Symbol also is one of the most underrated players in SC2, no one ever gives him credit although he goes far in all of his tournaments.
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It's interesting when you go to Aligulac.com, a purely mathematical rating, only 3 of the top 10 are KESPA. For those that want to make excuses for KESPA players, Innovation still came out first, so make sure you're able to explain his first place finish while making excuses for everyone else in KESPA.
On that list, Fantasy is #95 while First is #16.
MVP #3, Polt #4, HyuN #6. Only excuse I can think of is that the list takes past results into account too much (Life still #2), but why would you throw out May results when making a June Power Rank? It's recent enough that skills won't have changed that much and seems very relevant until the sample size is large enough to toss it and nobody, not even PLers, have a large enough sample size to toss May results.
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On July 04 2013 14:03 LighT. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 14:01 mnck wrote:
Look at that, Mvp 8th player on Powerrank and highest placing esf player. Its starting to look like a Brood war power rank with all these kespa pros there. Still..it feels awkward to have a power ranking without jaedong, stork and bisu somewhere in the mix... Jaedong and Bisu has some possibility to get to the top 10 while Stork looks completely done as a player or..he needs a breath of fresh air. Symbol also is one of the most underrated players in SC2, no one ever gives him credit although he goes far in all of his tournaments.
Symbol uses mostly trickery and weird strats in his recent runs, thus there is no aweness factor in his play.
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On July 04 2013 13:58 Megiddosc wrote:
I doubt it. I'm sure the writers would just consider them "mediocre" players like how Curious was described. Despite there not being much difference between the strength of KeSPA/ESF as a whole, the ESF players, despite some being long-time Code S players will be diminished.
Not necessarily. Curious HAS been pretty mediocre in HotS.
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EPT
