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On July 04 2013 14:05 RenSC2 wrote:
It's interesting when you go to Aligulac.com, a purely mathematical rating, only 3 of the top 10 are KESPA. For those that want to make excuses for KESPA players, Innovation still came out first, so make sure you're able to explain his first place finish while making excuses for everyone else in KESPA.
On that list, Fantasy is #95 while First is #16.
MVP #3, Polt #4, HyuN #6. Only excuse I can think of is that the list takes past results into account too much (Life still #2), but why would you throw out May results when making a June Power Rank? It's recent enough that skills won't have changed that much and seems very relevant until the sample size is large enough to toss it and nobody, not even PLers, have a large enough sample size to toss May results.
Aigulac takes into consideration over the course of HoTS and not over the course of one month. That's why its skewered in that sense. Life's #2 because despite his drought, his Elo peak was overwhelmingly high.
Jangbi's been a pretty "meh" player up until the past month and a half where he's been a monster.
Weird to see that Soulkey isnt on that list though.
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I would definitely consider trickery and weird strats as part of 'aweness factor'. Being creative used to be a positive trait.
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On July 04 2013 13:49 LighT. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 13:39 Xoronius wrote:On July 04 2013 13:25 LighT. wrote:
yea, MVP obviously shouldnt be in Top 10, he lost to Innovation 3-2. Results.
Innovation is obviously not top 10, he lost 3-4 to Soulkey. Results.
Sjow is obviously #1 player, he beat Life 2-1. Results.
Hey look ma, I can cherry pick results too! MVP and Innovation lost to the number 1and 2 in the world respectively. The is a difference between losing to Innovation 3-2in the semi finals at the wolrd WCS finals and losing to LzGamer 2-0 in the open bracket of an MLG (made up example, did´nt happen to anyone here). Losses are´nt equal. I think this list is pretty kespa-biased, which is´nt really a surprise, since we see them a lot more often in PL, then we see the ESF-guys in GSTL. Still, I have to wonder, why players like Supernova (2-0 against Parting/Squirtle) or First (2-0 against Leenock/RorO) arent even mentioned, while players that droped out in the ro32 don´t really get affected by that in the ranking. It has mostly to do with sample size. Not enough data to suggest First is deserving of a spot but his recent results are sure solidifying his case. Also of course, I was being sarcastic A better example to better exemplify what the argument would be Soulkey should be a #2 palyer because he lost to a SKT T1 B-teamer in Labyrinth. A guy who has never been on the A-team and shown his face in the SPL.
I´m aware of that problem, I mentioned it as well in the other post. I just don´t think, that it is a soulution to just ignore everyone with smaller sample sizes.The way, the ranking currently is done, it pretty much relies on PL with OSL setting a few nuances. And that is just a wrong way to do it, since
1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking,
2) WCS EU/NA players are getting almost no chance to make it far in there. Keep in mind, that the season finals were in this month as well, in which ForGG topped the goup with sOs in it and MVP was one map away of probably taking the tournament (sOs did´nt win a PvT for 2 month in the period before that and lost to Maru shortly after). It resulted in MVP being ranked nr.8 and ForGG do´nt being mentioned.
However, I have to go now, maybe I´ll be back later.
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On July 04 2013 14:11 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 13:49 LighT. wrote:On July 04 2013 13:39 Xoronius wrote:On July 04 2013 13:25 LighT. wrote:
yea, MVP obviously shouldnt be in Top 10, he lost to Innovation 3-2. Results.
Innovation is obviously not top 10, he lost 3-4 to Soulkey. Results.
Sjow is obviously #1 player, he beat Life 2-1. Results.
Hey look ma, I can cherry pick results too! MVP and Innovation lost to the number 1and 2 in the world respectively. The is a difference between losing to Innovation 3-2in the semi finals at the wolrd WCS finals and losing to LzGamer 2-0 in the open bracket of an MLG (made up example, did´nt happen to anyone here). Losses are´nt equal. I think this list is pretty kespa-biased, which is´nt really a surprise, since we see them a lot more often in PL, then we see the ESF-guys in GSTL. Still, I have to wonder, why players like Supernova (2-0 against Parting/Squirtle) or First (2-0 against Leenock/RorO) arent even mentioned, while players that droped out in the ro32 don´t really get affected by that in the ranking. It has mostly to do with sample size. Not enough data to suggest First is deserving of a spot but his recent results are sure solidifying his case. Also of course, I was being sarcastic A better example to better exemplify what the argument would be Soulkey should be a #2 palyer because he lost to a SKT T1 B-teamer in Labyrinth. A guy who has never been on the A-team and shown his face in the SPL. I´m aware of that problem, I mentioned it as well in the other post. I just don´t think, that it is a soulution to just ignore everyone with smaller sample sizes.The way, the ranking currently is done, it pretty much relies on PL with OSL setting a few nuances. And that is just a wrong way to do it, since 1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking, 2) WCS EU/NA players are getting almost no chance to make it far in there. Keep in mind, that the season finals were in this month as well, in which ForGG topped the goup with sOs in it and MVP was one map away of probably taking the tournament (sOs did´nt win a PvT for 2 month in the period before that and lost to Maru shortly after). It resulted in MVP being ranked nr.8 and ForGG do´nt being mentioned. However, I have to go now, maybe I´ll be back later.
Good point PL and GSTL are both about to end in a month or so, so should be interesting what happens when both are said and done. I guess that's the incentive to play in WCS KR, more recognition for TL Power rankings 
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On July 04 2013 11:42 kolz wrote:
In what world are Taeja and Polt better than Symbol, PartinG and RorO?
Taeja and Polt skill wise are much, much better than Symbol, Parting and Roro. Taeja had a sick run last WoL GSL (defeated Soulkey) when no terran was able to win anything. I believe he can be as good as Innovation if he can work on his current TvT. Polt is a super smart player, great at preparation, has sick TvP, top level micro and positioning. Both of them did very well at the end of WoL, and I greatly admire those terran players who did well at the end of WoL. It is the most definitive proof that the skill is there.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 04 2013 14:11 Xoronius wrote:
1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking.
This part isn't really true. You have to really read the writeup to get a better sense at the rationale behind the rankings. Rain's case was special in that he had a really amazing May and thus a #4 ranking in the June rank. In June, all his Proleague loses were justifiable and he looked really amazing in the OSL, in my opinion, the best out of anyone in the Ro32.
To echo some other people in the thread, yes, it's a sample size issue.
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On July 04 2013 14:05 RenSC2 wrote:
It's interesting when you go to Aligulac.com, a purely mathematical rating, only 3 of the top 10 are KESPA. For those that want to make excuses for KESPA players, Innovation still came out first, so make sure you're able to explain his first place finish while making excuses for everyone else in KESPA.
On that list, Fantasy is #95 while First is #16.
MVP #3, Polt #4, HyuN #6. Only excuse I can think of is that the list takes past results into account too much (Life still #2), but why would you throw out May results when making a June Power Rank? It's recent enough that skills won't have changed that much and seems very relevant until the sample size is large enough to toss it and nobody, not even PLers, have a large enough sample size to toss May results.
I'm pretty sure that nobody actually thinks that the Aligulac top ten is realistic in terms of actual strength. Half the players on there have artificially boosted ratings from playing the majority of their games against foreigners. Do you actually think that Polt, Violet and Hyun are top 6 in the world? And that Soulkey not only isn't in the top 10, but is behind Lucifron and San?
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On July 04 2013 14:23 monk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 14:11 Xoronius wrote:
1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking. This part isn't really true. You have to really read the writeup to get a better sense at the rationale behind the rankings. Rain's case was special in that he had a really amazing May and thus a #4 ranking in the June rank. In June, all his Proleague loses were justifiable and he looked really amazing in the OSL, in my opinion, the best out of anyone in the Ro32.
To echo some other people in the thread, yes, it's a sample size issue.
That is where you are wrong. Rain has two BO1 wins over Keen & Bomber. Now if that is enough to cancel out all of his PL losses and makes him look the best in Ro32, then Keen & Bomber must be a top tier players. If they are top tier, where are they?
Supernova looks the best in Ro32 imo.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 04 2013 14:25 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 14:05 RenSC2 wrote:
It's interesting when you go to Aligulac.com, a purely mathematical rating, only 3 of the top 10 are KESPA. For those that want to make excuses for KESPA players, Innovation still came out first, so make sure you're able to explain his first place finish while making excuses for everyone else in KESPA.
On that list, Fantasy is #95 while First is #16.
MVP #3, Polt #4, HyuN #6. Only excuse I can think of is that the list takes past results into account too much (Life still #2), but why would you throw out May results when making a June Power Rank? It's recent enough that skills won't have changed that much and seems very relevant until the sample size is large enough to toss it and nobody, not even PLers, have a large enough sample size to toss May results. I'm pretty sure that nobody actually thinks that the Aligulac top ten is realistic in terms of actual strength. Half the players on there have artificially boosted ratings from playing the majority of their games against foreigners. Do you actually think that Polt, Violet and Hyun are top 6 in the world? And that Soulkey not only isn't in the top 10, but is behind Lucifron and San?
San #1 ELO, so gosu
If you read aligulac's disclaimer, they say that the ratings difference between the top players isn't statistically significant; they're all close to 50/50 with each other and only go up and down the list due to hot and cold streaks.
But yeah foreigner stomping needs to get nerfed a little
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On July 04 2013 14:27 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 14:23 monk wrote:On July 04 2013 14:11 Xoronius wrote:
1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking. This part isn't really true. You have to really read the writeup to get a better sense at the rationale behind the rankings. Rain's case was special in that he had a really amazing May and thus a #4 ranking in the June rank. In June, all his Proleague loses were justifiable and he looked really amazing in the OSL, in my opinion, the best out of anyone in the Ro32.
To echo some other people in the thread, yes, it's a sample size issue. That is where you are wrong. Rain has two BO1 wins over Keen & Bomber. Now if that is enough to cancel out all of his PL losses and makes him look the best in Ro32, then Keen & Bomber must be a top tier players. If they are top tier, where are they? Supernova looks the best in Ro32 imo.
Maybe look at the actual games instead of only at results?
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On July 04 2013 14:29 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 14:27 painkilla wrote:On July 04 2013 14:23 monk wrote:On July 04 2013 14:11 Xoronius wrote:
1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking. This part isn't really true. You have to really read the writeup to get a better sense at the rationale behind the rankings. Rain's case was special in that he had a really amazing May and thus a #4 ranking in the June rank. In June, all his Proleague loses were justifiable and he looked really amazing in the OSL, in my opinion, the best out of anyone in the Ro32.
To echo some other people in the thread, yes, it's a sample size issue. That is where you are wrong. Rain has two BO1 wins over Keen & Bomber. Now if that is enough to cancel out all of his PL losses and makes him look the best in Ro32, then Keen & Bomber must be a top tier players. If they are top tier, where are they? Supernova looks the best in Ro32 imo. Maybe look at the actual games instead of only at results?
I do, what's your point? You look good when you play worse players. Mvp came back from 5 scv against Tefel. That was AMAZING right?
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On July 04 2013 05:24 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 05:20 digmouse wrote:
To all that thinks Life should be in the Top 10, one reason he is playing so bad atm is he plays a lot of LoL nowadays. Is this true? And if it were true - wtf, so you are at the top of the world when new expansion comes, you beat the best players with innovative style and... you just start playing another game? What in the flying fuck. Who does that.
A teenager does that
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On July 04 2013 14:34 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 14:29 GolemMadness wrote:On July 04 2013 14:27 painkilla wrote:On July 04 2013 14:23 monk wrote:On July 04 2013 14:11 Xoronius wrote:
1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking. This part isn't really true. You have to really read the writeup to get a better sense at the rationale behind the rankings. Rain's case was special in that he had a really amazing May and thus a #4 ranking in the June rank. In June, all his Proleague loses were justifiable and he looked really amazing in the OSL, in my opinion, the best out of anyone in the Ro32.
To echo some other people in the thread, yes, it's a sample size issue. That is where you are wrong. Rain has two BO1 wins over Keen & Bomber. Now if that is enough to cancel out all of his PL losses and makes him look the best in Ro32, then Keen & Bomber must be a top tier players. If they are top tier, where are they? Supernova looks the best in Ro32 imo. Maybe look at the actual games instead of only at results? I do, what's your point? You look good when you play worse players. Mvp came back from 5 scv against Tefel. That was AMAZING right?
Bomber and Keen are both good players who played well in those games. Somebody blundering into a loss isn't the same thing at all. The fact that they're not in this particular top 10 is irrelevant.
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Polt only ninth place?
Oh lord, when will he get the recognition he deserves?
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6 T, 3 P, 1 Z ... Dat Hellbats ! :p
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On July 04 2013 14:27 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 14:23 monk wrote:On July 04 2013 14:11 Xoronius wrote:
1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking. This part isn't really true. You have to really read the writeup to get a better sense at the rationale behind the rankings. Rain's case was special in that he had a really amazing May and thus a #4 ranking in the June rank. In June, all his Proleague loses were justifiable and he looked really amazing in the OSL, in my opinion, the best out of anyone in the Ro32.
To echo some other people in the thread, yes, it's a sample size issue. That is where you are wrong. Rain has two BO1 wins over Keen & Bomber. Now if that is enough to cancel out all of his PL losses and makes him look the best in Ro32, then Keen & Bomber must be a top tier players. If they are top tier, where are they? Supernova looks the best in Ro32 imo.
He's not wrong, it's his opinion. There's a difference. Supernova did look good in the ro32 but that's also just an opinion. It doesn't really help that the PL sample size is so small.
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I loved the WM usage but Flash's build against Fantasy deserved better than a sounding loss imo.
I'd argue that Polt deserves an even better spot, such an incredibly smart guy.
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On July 04 2013 15:13 [F_]aths wrote:
Polt only ninth place?
Oh lord, when will he get the recognition he deserves?
When he starts beating top Koreans instead of foreigners probably.
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You guys are doing this every month again?
I love you ;_;
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On July 04 2013 05:58 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 05:54 GTPGlitch wrote:On July 04 2013 05:31 Scville wrote:
Azubu Symbol ''...In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
''In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
I'm pretty sure those mediocre code s players are better than TLO and Snute.
And why the fuck MVP is only rank 8? Seriously he almost defeated Innovation in a bo5 and Jangbi is rank6 because he won some bo1? Oh my god
And parting isn't in top 10 anymore because he lost a bo1 against Supernova? Jesus Christ.
And while Parting plays against 100x harder opponents and is still 6-4, Taeja is in top 10 because he barely won against TLO and Snute.
Such a joke.
You're taking this waaaaaaay to seriously lol This has no effect on anything, it's just for fun. Stop freaking out and learn to accept the opinions of others~ It should be obvious now that power rank is Proleague power rank with some consolation places for esf players. Not necessarily bad since PL is the only weekly thing. But the criteria should be clear : We put a lot of weights for matchs in PL in this power rank.
Well I guess this is true, I do find it really weird that ~75% of the ranking values are based on one tournament.
With my job I can never watch proleague, meaning that I have not even seen 50% of the players on this ranking compete in the last month. The other 20% is based on a Bo1 in OSL and then the last 5% of the other ~100 SC2 tournaments that have been happening the last months.
That seems kind of stupid to me.
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EPT
