EPTYou're not doing yourselves any favors with your argumentation, even though I also rarely agree with the way these power ranks are sorted.
And that Baroninthetree guy is doing even worse because I can't understand what he's trying to say -_-''
SC2 Power Rank - July 2013 - Page 14
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
You're not doing yourselves any favors with your argumentation, even though I also rarely agree with the way these power ranks are sorted. And that Baroninthetree guy is doing even worse because I can't understand what he's trying to say -_-'' | ||
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
On July 04 2013 12:42 Baroninthetree wrote: It's not the same. Only if a players has infinity memory. 5 maps with 3 opponent could give you more than 10 different matches. And you got it backwards, the players success in BOx can success in BO1, since they are the best players. While the players success in BO1 not necessary success in BOx. Players like Hydra, Zest, Hero, Effort are all in Proleague Top 10. I don't see them deliver any individual results anytime soon. Hydra's record in SPL is carried through his record in WoL, so is herO's they've been awful at HoTS, anyway they're both in Code A. Moving onto Zest, zest is basically a PvP sniper. he's good at PvP, only mediocre at everything else, also he's KT so expecting him to have individual success is pushing it. effort's been screwed over multiple times in up and downs because of the tie-breakers. (Edit: Efforts a good player btw, top 20-25 ish player) And absolutely, players that succeed in BOx can succeed in BO1. Again, let's analyze the players in question: Fantasy, Jangbi and Flash. Jangbi's June record: June 3rd - Prepared Bo1 vs Flash Win June 3rd - Ace Match Bo1 vs Flash Loss Jun 5: 2-1 Sondurgi 2-1 Cure 2-0 Bisu 1-2 Dear. Jun 13 - Argo W (prepared map) Jun 17 - Bisu L (prepared map) Jun 17 - Rain W (Ace match, unprepared) Jun 23 - JYP W (Prepared map) Jun 23 - Jaedong W (Ace match, unprepared) Jun 25- Kangho W, Fantasy L, Kangho L. So let's see. You have Jangbi having 4 BO3 victories. 2-1 in ace matches which came on against an unknown opponent, where in two of those occasions where he is 2-0 in if he loses once, Samsung Khan is out of the playoffs. In "Prepared matches" He is 3-1 So yes, by what you're saying Jangbi is a great player. He succeeds in BOx so he can succeed in BO1 as well. Fantasy (I personally dont think he's a Top 10 player but I'm going to justify his case anyway) Jun 2 - Zenio W (prepared map) Jun 2 - Jaedong W (Ace matc, unprepared) Jun 4 - Innovation L Jun 5 - 0-2 loss to Myungsik (rofl) Jun 13 - Flash W (there was no "prepared" build in this game at all, if youve bothered watching it) Jun 17 - Reality W (Prepared matchup) Jun 22 - Trust W (prepared match up) Jun 24 - Light L (prepared match up) Jun 25 - Life W (bo3) Jun 25 - Jangbi W (Bo3) So we've concluded Jangbi is a great player. Edit: Correction Fantasy is 0-1 in Bo3, forgot the single elimination dual format In his one ace match, he won, unprepared map 1-0 In his "prepared matches" he is 6-2 his losses coming to Innovation (if you dont think hes good, youre absolutely insane) and Light (who is pretty good at TvT and TvZ but bronze league level at TvP) Fantasy, solid record. solid player. Actually seriously, do I have do one for Flash? There is unanimous evidence to suggest there are great players not just in the bo1 settings but overall. | ||
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
Megiddosc and baroninthree. prove to me why Fantasy/jangbi and Flash are notdeserving of TOp 10 with evidence. Either you two are brilliant trolls or you do have a solid argument in mind. | ||
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Megiddosc
United States966 Posts
On July 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: If it's more likely to have an upset in a Bo1, doesn't that make players who can win Bo1s consistently even better since they don't lose in a format that's likely to produce an upset (or, in a format that they are less favored in)?' My point boils to this, since you worded it this way. Hydra is listed here as the 5th best player in Proleague. Hydra is in code B. He lost last season in Code A to Avenge. Hydra is great at performing a single build on a single map but he can't pull out wins otherwise. So should I be impressed with Hydra's ability to somewhat consistently win Bo1s if he cannot seem to perform well outside of that circumstance? In terms of KeSPA players, I have really been impressed with those who are on top of this list. But the others haven't done much to impress me, including Fantasy and Jangbi. | ||
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:07 Megiddosc wrote: My point boils to this, since you worded it this way. Hydra is listed here as the 5th best player in Proleague. Hydra is in code B. He lost last season in Code A to Avenge. Hydra is great at performing a single build on a single map but he can't pull out wins otherwise. So should I be impressed with Hydra's ability to somewhat consistently win Bo1s if he cannot seem to perform well outside of that circumstance? In terms of KeSPA players, I have really been impressed with those who are on top of this list. But the others haven't done much to impress me, including Fantasy and Jangbi. Yes, hydra has a good record. Also if you keep in track of Hydra, hydra's awful in HoTS, however like Sniper he was pretty damn good at WoL, a majority of his wins come from WoL. The FPL points would indicate that.. The record you see is a combination of WoL + HoTS play. So your argument for Hydra is nil because hes not a good player to begin with. Edit: This is, I think, a case of "I dont watch SPL but its all BO1 and jangbi couldnt advance to Ro16 and fantasy was shit vs First so theyre bad and shouldnt be in the list" than actually looking at the overall results, games and circumstances. | ||
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Kevn23
United States80 Posts
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Megiddosc
United States966 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:10 LighT. wrote: Edit: This is, I think, a case of "I dont watch SPL but its all BO1 and jangbi couldnt advance to Ro16 and fantasy was shit vs First so theyre bad and shouldnt be in the list" than actually looking at the overall results, games and circumstances. Absolutely, I look at results. The results are what matter. As it is in any sport. There's no "You tried hard" medal. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10397 Posts
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:15 Megiddosc wrote: Absolutely, I look at results. The results are what matter. As it is in any sport. There's no "You tried hard" medal. I've shown you the results of why Jangbi and Fanta are great players What evidence do you have? I would love to eat crow but I dont think there is any to eat in the first place. Edit: Since you love looking at results, I hope you didnt skim over my long post about results for each respective players  | ||
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pieisamazing
United States1234 Posts
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Megiddosc
United States966 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:17 LighT. wrote: I've shown you the results of why Jangbi and Fanta are great players Jangbi lost to Kangho and didn't make Ro16. Fanta got crushed by First. Those are results. If they're top players then they should be advancing in the individual leagues. | ||
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Kevn23
United States80 Posts
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious. Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG. | ||
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:20 Megiddosc wrote: Jangbi lost to Kangho and didn't make Ro16. Fanta got crushed by First. Those are results. If they're top players then they should be advancing in the individual leagues. And...with that post, Youve proven right now youre full of shit and you have heavy bias against the kespa players. Congraulations. Theres no point in arguing with someone like yourself. First's game was in July. Thsi is a June power ranking. Jangbi lost to Kangho. Great. How about the series he won vs Kangho? And everything else? Again, you shouldnt making such accusations if all youre going to do is cherry pick games and results. You obviously have no idea what youre talking about. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:07 Megiddosc wrote: My point boils to this, since you worded it this way. Hydra is listed here as the 5th best player in Proleague. Hydra is in code B. He lost last season in Code A to Avenge. Hydra is great at performing a single build on a single map but he can't pull out wins otherwise. So should I be impressed with Hydra's ability to somewhat consistently win Bo1s if he cannot seem to perform well outside of that circumstance? In terms of KeSPA players, I have really been impressed with those who are on top of this list. But the others haven't done much to impress me, including Fantasy and Jangbi. That liquipedia page isn't updated, actually. And if you look at win percentages, Hydra is only slightly better than average. The list is ordered by number of wins, and not a combination of number of wins and win percentage. Players don't play the same number of games because some matches don't get played (in 4-0s, 4-1s and 4-2s). Hydra has also sucked massive zergballs in HoTS. TL writers didn't just look at that list and decide who is good. They look at recent results, quality of opponents, quality of games, and I'm sure a bunch of x factors. I don't agree Fantasy is Top 10. JangBi is arguable. But your insistence that PL shouldn't count for much because it is Bo1 makes little sense. (although I agree that the amount of PL games played--they basically play more televised games than anyone else--inflates the record and hype of some players) | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:20 Megiddosc wrote: Jangbi lost to Kangho and didn't make Ro16. Fanta got crushed by First. Those are results. If they're top players then they should be advancing in the individual leagues. Fantasy's loss to First occurred after the Ranking's period, so it doesn't count yet. It will count in the next period though. So right now only Fantasy's win in his difficult Ro32 group counts. | ||
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
Innovation is obviously not top 10, he lost 3-4 to Soulkey. Results. Sjow is obviously #1 player, he beat Life 2-1. Results. Hey look ma, I can cherry pick results too! | ||
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:24 lichter wrote: That liquipedia page isn't updated, actually. And if you look at win percentages, Hydra is only slightly better than average. The list is ordered by number of wins, and not a combination of number of wins and win percentage. Players don't play the same number of games because some matches don't get played (in 4-0s, 4-1s and 4-2s). Hydra has also sucked massive zergballs in HoTS. TL writers didn't just look at that list and decide who is good. They look at recent results, quality of opponents, quality of games, and I'm sure a bunch of x factors. I don't agree Fantasy is Top 10. JangBi is arguable. But your insistence that PL shouldn't count for much because it is Bo1 makes little sense. (although I agree that the amount of PL games played--they basically play more televised games than anyone else--inflates the record and hype of some players) Lichter. Dont waste your time. It's so blantantly clear he is completely sour towards the Kespa players. I'm sure youve noticed it. | ||
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Megiddosc
United States966 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:24 lichter wrote: That liquipedia page isn't updated, actually. And if you look at win percentages, Hydra is only slightly better than average. The list is ordered by number of wins, and not a combination of number of wins and win percentage. Players don't play the same number of games because some matches don't get played (in 4-0s, 4-1s and 4-2s). Hydra has also sucked massive zergballs in HoTS. TL writers didn't just look at that list and decide who is good. They look at recent results, quality of opponents, quality of games, and I'm sure a bunch of x factors. I don't agree Fantasy is Top 10. JangBi is arguable. But your insistence that PL shouldn't count for much because it is Bo1 makes little sense. (although I agree that the amount of PL games played--they basically play more televised games than anyone else--inflates the record and hype of some players) Thanks for the clarification then. Replace Hydra with Zest then. Zest has, according to that list, a 68% win percentage in SPL. Zest is Code B. He has never, as far as I can tell, qualified for Code A. How can that be if he has almost 70% win percentage in the most prestigious team league? | ||
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
On July 04 2013 13:32 Megiddosc wrote: Thanks for the clarification then. Replace Hydra with Zest then. Zest has, according to that list, a 68% win percentage in SPL. Zest is Code B. He has never, as far as I can tell, qualified for Code A. How can that be if he has almost 70% win percentage in the most prestigious team league? This guy..rofl. I've already explained Zest is a PvP sniper. He plays EXLUSIVELY PvPs and quite godly at it. he's mediocre at everything else. Also again he's KT. expecting individual success from a KT player not named Flash is the equivalent of expecting NsHoseo to win the GSTL | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On July 04 2013 12:09 Megiddosc wrote: Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map? Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why? A true champion should be capable of both and our tournament structure reflects that. You have tournaments that emphasise fundamentals (all weekend LANs basically) and tournaments where preparation plays an important role (OSL and to a lesser degree GSL and WCS EU/NA). Note that while preparation is very important in these formats, fundamentals remain the single most important factor. Innovation is far from being the best at preparation but he is nevertheless favoured in any tournament he currently enters. But to get to your question, why do we like formats that allow players in-depth preparation? Because it leads to far superior games. Take Flash vs Fantasy for example, one of my favourite games from last month. It's a game teeming with preparation, and the result is a strategic freshness you are unlikely to see at any MLG. Flash's build is brilliant, even though it's not a build he could repeat over and over at a weekend LAN. Fantasy's reaction was an incredible surprise, allowing him to turn around a game that looked strategically lost. That game alone placed a big question mark over the viability of Skyterran in TvT, and I'm unbelievably excited to see what Flash has prepared for us in a few hours, whether or not he has figured out a way to make a similar build work after all. There's a marked parallel to the chess world here. Like in Sc2, the usual chess tournament features a lot of games against different opponents. These tournaments are very meaningful and they influence who we think of as the strongest player of the time, but their importance pales in comparison with a world championship match. A world championship match is simply a long match between two players (the current world champion and his contender) involving an unbelievable amount of preparation. It's the clash of preparation in these matches that truly push the game's strategic limits forward. The resurgence of the Berlin defense originates from Kasparov - the then undisputed best player in the world, think Flash in BW - biting his teeth out game after game against Kramnik's preparation of the Berlin wall. Very few people thought Kramnik had a chance against the god of chess, but he prepared a unique approach to deal with Kasparov's style and in doing so, changed the way we think about the game. There are BW examples for this too. The Boxer vs Oov finals long ago was a theoretical discussion of 2 port vs fac port over a Bo5. In the theory of the time, 2 port was supposed to beat fac port, but Oov refused to stray from the fac port builds he had prepared and managed to narrowly defeat his mentor. By contrast weekend LANs, while very fun to watch, are strategically sterile. The only instance of a weekend LAN really pushing the game forward that I can recall is Slayers coming to MLG with their blue flame hellion build long ago. What you will usually get is a weekend of players comparing their fundamentals while the strategical engine of the game idles. | ||
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