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On June 12 2013 14:56 Lumi wrote:
It takes so much more apm for a Z to deal with widow mines than for a T to use them.. this 'analysis' of theirs seems pretty sloppy. Also, this mentality that drops = fun seems to only be considering audiences, and not players. Speedvac has made this game so much more about just staying at home and defending against that threat as a Z or a P. I was prepared to deal with a slow experience of waiting on blizz to be careful about addressing balance.. Z had it easy in the end of WoL. But.. this far into HotS, Blizzard's "patience" is starting to look more like ignorance, again. "We hear the voices of expert players, and fans at large. But we've done a poor job at looking into things ourselves, and have decided to do nothing."
Thanks for the update Blizz? :X
It also takes more apm for T to deal with banes than for a Z to use them. Remember that. I do agree with the other stuff you said though.
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United Kingdom12058 Posts
I wish they'd look into the tank and maybe buffing it against toss, but whatever. At this point I think I'm living in a dream world.
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Using tanks take way more skill than widowmines which are basically a fire and forget disposable unit and they introduce new units for Z and P which are either gimmics or flat out crap to use or watch.Terran has replaced Zerg as the mass unit race with cheap disposable armies of marines,hellbats and WM at Pro level.
Reading David Kims post does not inspire confidence. he talks about fast dynamic game play but SH and Tempest are the complete opposite.HOTS i suspect will suffer a major drop in interest within 6 months, its basically a patch for Terran whilst the other 2 races are stuck in WoL mode
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Tanks are so broken in nonTvT matchups that there is really no way to fix them.
They are too cost/supply inefficient against many tech on top of their many other weaknesses.
There is basically no room to adjust tank anymore for mid/late game play. They are the Terran sentry: potentially needed early to block allin/pressure, but ineffective beginning midgame.
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Another good report but they seem to dodge some things.
Like you have to do be aggressive in TvP and not overextend because if you make a single little mistake you wont have a chance if you are playing on the same skill level.
The main reason why WM is replacing tanks, their cost and vipers, never even gets mentioned but I guess they dont want to change another unit 
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On June 12 2013 15:15 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 14:53 Naphal wrote:
i notice how all nonterrans love the siegetank xD because they are so easy to exploit and counter?
I'm Terran and I sure as hell love the siege tank. Really disappointed to hear those blizzard comments about it. 
If you love siege tanks then use them. Watch some Mvp's and Strelok's games for inspiration and go for it.What's stopping you?
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On June 12 2013 14:43 SirPinky wrote:
You have to remember, while I don't disagree with some of your statements about awareness, what has HOTS actually given Terran? What new units? Warhound was taken out; Hellbat transformation nerfed to oblivion before launch; upgrades for mid tier units taking forever. What more do you want? Are you to say the reaper autoheal is what separates HOTS from WoL. I think Widow Mine drops and usage was more designed for high level play (something you may or may not have) so there might be a bias here.
What has HotS given terran? a confirmed OP unit (hellbat) and a seemingly OP unit (mine). Warhound was taken out, so was replicant, and oracle has been a gimmick-ridden unit from the start despite the many changes made.
Any diamond terran can do a widow mine drop, it's not hard, in fact they do that all the time. What kind of insane micro does it take to use a unit that doesn't move when attacking?
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On June 12 2013 08:13 juicyjames wrote:
“is this a good thing that Widow Mines have replaced Siege Tanks as the primary splash damage units?”
[LIST][*]We believe the answer is yes.
well i disagree, i thought mines were a defensive unit
On June 12 2013 08:13 juicyjames wrote:
[*]When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
it comes down to the skill of the zerg player you mean
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On June 12 2013 15:41 JDI1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 14:43 SirPinky wrote:
You have to remember, while I don't disagree with some of your statements about awareness, what has HOTS actually given Terran? What new units? Warhound was taken out; Hellbat transformation nerfed to oblivion before launch; upgrades for mid tier units taking forever. What more do you want? Are you to say the reaper autoheal is what separates HOTS from WoL. I think Widow Mine drops and usage was more designed for high level play (something you may or may not have) so there might be a bias here. What has HotS given terran? a confirmed OP unit (hellbat) and a seemingly OP unit (mine). Warhound was taken out, so was replicant, and oracle has been a gimmick-ridden unit from the start despite the many changes made. Any diamond terran can do a widow mine drop, it's not hard, in fact they do that all the time. What kind of insane micro does it take to use a unit that doesn't move when attacking?
You clearly haven't played with widow mine.
In low league, Terran just burrow his widow mines and they hit random targets, but it works because the opponent doesn't deal with them correctly.
Now if you watch some terran like flash or innovation, you will see widow mine always hitting the right unit so that the widow mine hit does the most damage output possible (with the splash). This is extremely difficult to do since you have to manually select the unit you want the widow mine to hit, before the widow mine detonates on a random target, while still controlling your army. Plus, if the opponent split correctly, you have to keep switching targets with your widow mines so that they don't detonate on the splitted unit and wait for the whole army to pass by.
Again, this requires insane micro and game sense (if there are detection, you can't afford to wait for long). At least as much as the split required by the opponent.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 12 2013 09:01 BronzeKnee wrote:
Shocked that they won't change the Widow Mine.
It isn't overpowered statistically, but the effect it has on the game is dramatic. It controls APM better than any other unit, to the extent that in TvZ it allows Terran to dominate multitasking. Idra said this is the reason so many people have been doing Roach-Bane busts, simply because a Terran player who is good at multitasking can dominate an equally skilled Zerg player using Widow Mines. As a Protoss bystander, I'm inclined to agree when I watch high level Terran or Zerg streams. It ruined my favorite match up to watch for me.
Also as another poster said above, it promotes a chance aspect, rather than skill. The skill in using Tanks isn't just focus firing, it is in the positioning! Blizzard seems to have lost sight of this.
The thing here is that Terran have been multitasking their army for the last 3 years whereas it was possible to win without this level of control with Z, I'm sure pro Zergs will find a way (such as Life) to defeat widow mines, it will just require just as much multitasking with the army, which Zergs aren't used to.
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I hate how conservative they are with their small steps. They've never been an innovative company, but they were good at identifying good ideas and making them into perfect ideas. When have they lost that ability?
2013, still fighting with shitty and boring units like Corrupters, Void Rays and so forth because the keep ignoring the real issues with the game.
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The Warp Prism change we tested last week is a good example of a tweak that benefits players who are amazing at multitasking, while having little effect on the game below the pro level. For an eSport game like SC2, we want more things in the game that separate out the very best from the average, not less.
Well when do we get to see this change in the actual game? 
cant wait!
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When people talk about how marine-tank is viable TvZ you clearly don't understand how sc2 works nowadays, you can't use tanks nowadays when the maps are this massive. It's appalling to see massive Zerg whine when they have to control units for the first time ever.
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If you are sad about mines taking over the role of tanks clap your hands.
*clap!
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I think the post made it quite clear they are looking at PRO LEVEL play 1st, and everyone else gets a trickle down effect. So comments about how good/bad things work at the level of almost anyone posting in this thread is hardly relevant.
With that said, they've already addressed the strength of Hellbat drops, and in this very update talks about looking to address more stagnant/turtle play like Swarm Hosts w/ mass defenses. There are a lot of people who make their living from creating, playing, displaying, and marketing around this game .... so don't think there will be any massive changes, or knee-jerk changes just because the diamond players are having trouble.
We are all here playing, watching, and in many cases spending money on this game ... so they must be doing something right. Right? Dial back the venom.
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Am I retarded or did they completely skip the result of the Warp Prism testing. Will it be in implemented in the game or not? Everyone I talk with who play on a competitive level always disregard any "balance testing map" as not the real thing until it is in the actual game, and as a result don't bother even trying it out once. It looked like a promising change for Protoss though.
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Seems like Blizzard is balancing the game completely from a spectator's point of view. Not sure if I agree with that approach.
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I have no opinion about the lack of changes, but I would like to see the siege tank buffed.
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If u read David Kim's whole article and understand it, u will know that he doesn't wanna nerf helbat. What a funny "PS".
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blizzard is constantly ignoring is the psychological aspect of the windowmines!
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EPT
