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Situation Report: June 11, 2013

Forum Index > SC2 General
430 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 20 21 22 Next All
juicyjames *
Profile Joined August 2011
United States3815 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-12 00:09:22
June 11 2013 23:13 GMT
#1
http://us.battle.net//sc2/en/blog/10210613

Situation Report: June 11, 2013 by David Kim

[image loading]


With the awesome conclusion of the global finals of the first season of this year’s World Championship Series, we thought this was as good a time as any to offer a detailed update on our current thought processes and how we’re approaching balance going forward.

More Action throughout the Game

We strongly believe that this is the main direction the game should go. More action means more diversity, which makes the game more challenging to play and more fun to watch.

Back when Medivac drops were easy to stop, PvT was often a long macro buildup with little action, and a few large battles determined the winner. Nowadays, there are more drops happening, and every game plays out very differently. Different games range from the Protoss player perfectly stopping everything to the Terran player pulling off awesome drops to both players taking it to the late game, and everything in-between.

We feel that this diversity of outcomes makes for a better late game. Sure, sometimes a Protoss player amasses a large army of High Templar, Colossi, and Tempests, and against a well-defended opponent there are few options for harassment. But action-filled games are less predictable and reach the max-army endgame less often. When there is a huge maxed-out push, it’s the culmination of all the harassment and skirmishes that came before it.

Change the Game to Promote Skill

The Warp Prism change we tested last week is a good example of a tweak that benefits players who are amazing at multitasking, while having little effect on the game below the pro level. For an eSport game like SC2, we want more things in the game that separate out the very best from the average, not less.

We can look to INnoVation as a case where what we’re talking about is currently working quite well. His strategies are not very different from those of most other Terran players, but his Widow Mine usage is incomparably better. When we watch his TvZ games, we see a crystal clear difference between the usefulness of the unit and the skill of the player.



Units Currently Being Discussed

Some units will always be more central to specific strategies and/or matchups than others, so we’d rather those units be fun to watch and challenging to use.

We’re currently seeing a lot of discussion about:

Void Ray
  • We’re seeing a lot of Void Ray play in PvZ, but Protoss is still not statistically overpowered.
  • Zerg all-ins aren’t the only counter, as we see many PvZ matches last into the mid- and late-game, ending in a Zerg victory, despite the usage of Void Rays.
  • Void Rays are much better than they used to be, but we don’t think this is a bad thing.
  • Stargate used to be almost unusable, and now it’s quite important. We also see a lot of Robo and Templar play.
  • All tech options are viable now throughout the course of the game.
  • We don’t currently have any plans to nerf Void Rays.
Widow Mine
  • Widow Mines are currently overshadowing units such as Siege Tanks and Thors, but their use doesn’t correlate distinctly with wins over Protoss or Zerg opponents.
  • So our question here becomes “is this a good thing that Widow Mines have replaced Siege Tanks as the primary splash damage units?”
    • We believe the answer is yes.
    • When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
    • When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
    • The current design of Widow Mines rewards both players who are skilled at using them and opposing players who are skilled at defeating them.
  • It doesn’t look like Siege Tanks have disappeared. They’re critical in TvT, and in TvZ they’re key to playing a safe early/mid game. Additionally, Terran Mech also has potential.
  • As long as Widow Mines reward skilled players and Terran can’t legitimately be said to be better than the other races, we don’t plan to adjust this unit.



Casual observers often take a new or unexpected tactic or strategy that gains widespread use and just label it “OP”. In addition to Void Rays and Widow Mines, PartinG’s Immortal Sentry all-in got this treatment. Because it was a new strategy and it was working for PartinG, it was dismissed as OP. At the time, even other Protoss players at the highest level weren’t having as much success with the Immortal Sentry all-in after Zerg players had seen it for a week or two. We prefer to analyze a new strategy and ask:
  • Is this actually making the game more fun?
  • What would happen if we nerfed this powerful unit?
  • Would a proposed change make the game more or less stale?
Balance Testing Plan

We have two main goals for testing. First is making sure that we are dealing with units/strategies that are making gameplay stale. For example, we’re looking carefully at Swarm Host + mass defenses play. Our second goal is locating a race that is playing weaker than the other two, and improving it in ways that are fun for the game.

It’s important to note that we like trying out changes in balance test maps that are more aggressive than we might intend to implement in the live game. This is better than theorycrafting and gathering theorycrafted feedback. The more we experiment in real gameplay, the more we learn. We’re constantly reaching out to as many pro players and casters as we can, and we’re willing to try out changes that sound cool in testing.

As always, we believe everything can be improved. We’re very thankful that you share your thoughts with us.

Poll: First impressions of not changing the Void Ray?

Approve (1092)
 
64%

Disapprove (443)
 
26%

Neutral-prove (168)
 
10%

1703 total votes

Your vote: First impressions of not changing the Void Ray?

(Vote): Approve
(Vote): Disapprove
(Vote): Neutral-prove



Poll: First impressions of not changing the Widow Mine?

Approve (957)
 
50%

Disapprove (805)
 
42%

Neutral-prove (149)
 
8%

1911 total votes

Your vote: First impressions of not changing the Widow Mine?

(Vote): Approve
(Vote): Disapprove
(Vote): Neutral-prove



PS: David Kim already commented on Hellbats.
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This Week in SC2Find out what happened 'This Week in Starcraft 2': http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278126
Xivsa
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1009 Posts
June 11 2013 23:21 GMT
#2
Not a bad report. And it didn't mention Hellbats at all, but I hope that nerf will be coming soon.
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. - Bilbo
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-11 23:32:03
June 11 2013 23:27 GMT
#3
I'm amused by how Blizzard says that widow mines reward skillful usage from Terran players. I also "like" how they say that when an army of tanks and marines goes against an opposing Zerg force, that observers can tell who will win the battle and who will lose...

That indicates a problem to me. If it is so obvious that a Zerg will win or lose against a force of marine/tank, then it should also be equally obvious whether or not a Zerg will win against a force of marine/mine. It's not skill on the Terran's part to use mines - in fact, the usage of tanks promotes even more skill. Instead of setting and forgetting tanks, they can also be focus fired, spread out strategically across terrain, and can shell a target from a safe distance. Mine usage promotes a CHANCE aspect. The only skill involved in a Z v. burrowed mine engagement occurs on the side of the zerg, attempting to mitigate as much damage from the mine as possible.

Blizzard is so desperate to remove the siege tank from TvZ that they call getting a few tanks to defend against a roach/bane allin "getting tanks." If the siege tank and the mine clash so much that Terran players predominantly choose one over the other and tank usage has largely disappeared, then one of the units is poorly designed and should be fixed so that their roles do not conflict, or it should be removed.

I also think that Blizzard is focusing too much on removing defensive strategies such as swarmhost + static in order to avoid the infestor/broodlord effect, without actually considering why such strategies exist in the first place. The reason that strategy exists is that it is the only way that Zerg can consistently beat an endgame Protoss deathball. Instead of attempting to stamp that out Blizzard should consider why the comp exists in the first place and what is causing it...It's ironic because outside of two-base allins the sole goal of a Protoss is to turtle to death on 3 bases.

In attempting to remove anything that is not aggressive from the game Blizzard is removing a lot of options and complexity. Just because something is defensive does not mean it is bad. Do not focus so much on the spectator that you limit potential gameplay. The death of the siege tank is a prime example of this.
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
kckkryptonite
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
1126 Posts
June 11 2013 23:41 GMT
#4
I think WM's need to exist though, Terrans were just getting raped with Marine Tank near the end of WoL. Especially now that Vipers exist. I like their thought process, and it's nice seeing Zergs putting on some aggression now days.
RIP avilo, qxc keyboard 2013, RIP Nathanis keyboard 2014
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
June 11 2013 23:47 GMT
#5
Playing zerg vs terran became much more intense for me in HotS due to the widow mines. I really like that you just can't a-move at all anymore. I agree that they shouldn't be adjusted.
I had a good night of sleep.
Vanimar
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
220 Posts
June 11 2013 23:48 GMT
#6
I love being informed like this so I know what is going on.
Bit sad though that the option of making medivac thrusters cost energy is not being discussed
I figured out the EG Curse. It was set in motion by Voodoo Shamans working for Millenium. Whenever EG aquires a player, Voodoo energies start slowly draining skill from the EG guy into an Millenium newcomer. Think about it!
_SpiRaL_
Profile Joined December 2012
Afghanistan1636 Posts
June 11 2013 23:52 GMT
#7
Not sure what DK is getting at with the 'skill' component of widow mines. Seems like they require less skill to use effectively than other options.
Red and yellow are all I see
jeeneeus
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1168 Posts
June 11 2013 23:53 GMT
#8
How about void rays in pvp? Or is that not really an issue?
JacobShock
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Denmark2485 Posts
June 11 2013 23:54 GMT
#9
Nerf hellbat widow mine, buff seige tank :b In all seriousness, I don't know if anything is OP. I just know that somethings are way too unforgiving and way too easy to execute.
"Right on" - Morrow
Zealos
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom3576 Posts
June 11 2013 23:54 GMT
#10
I love that they are trying lots of balance changes, without actually changing it in the game.
On the internet if you disagree with or dislike something you're angry and taking it too seriously. == Join TLMafia !
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
June 11 2013 23:55 GMT
#11
They know what they're doing, great to see
Lukeeze[zR]
Profile Joined February 2006
Switzerland6838 Posts
June 11 2013 23:56 GMT
#12
WM is insanely random, I really don't agree with their point. And they should be a bit more clear about the swarm host.
Terran & Potato Salad.
Exarl25
Profile Joined November 2010
1887 Posts
June 11 2013 23:58 GMT
#13
On June 12 2013 08:53 jeeneeus wrote:
How about void rays in pvp? Or is that not really an issue?


Hasn't been an issue for a while now. PvP is actually seeing a very wide diversity of openings and unit compositions, possibly more diversity than any other matchup ever actually. Of course in the late game Void Rays play a big role because they are an incredibly powerful unit but they are hardly all you make.
igay
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia1178 Posts
June 12 2013 00:00 GMT
#14
Pretty impressed with how they handle the game these days
MVP <3 MKP <3 DRG <3
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5218 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-12 00:04:38
June 12 2013 00:01 GMT
#15
Shocked that they won't change the Widow Mine.

It isn't overpowered statistically, but the effect it has on the game is dramatic. It controls APM better than any other unit, to the extent that in TvZ it allows Terran to dominate multitasking. Idra said this is the reason so many people have been doing Roach-Bane busts, simply because a Terran player who is good at multitasking can dominate an equally skilled Zerg player using Widow Mines. As a Protoss bystander, I'm inclined to agree when I watch high level Terran or Zerg streams. It ruined my favorite match up to watch for me.

Also as another poster said above, it promotes a chance aspect, rather than skill. The skill in using Tanks isn't just focus firing, it is in the positioning! Blizzard seems to have lost sight of this.
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
June 12 2013 00:02 GMT
#16
I don't mind the widow mine replacing the tank with bio armies. I still think they could buff tanks a bit, just to give people more reason to experiment with mech.

He seems to take pride in protoss having 3 viable tech options, so how about stop talking about "potential" with mech and do something about it?
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33497 Posts
June 12 2013 00:02 GMT
#17
  • When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
  • When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.


uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
EFermi
Profile Joined May 2011
United States165 Posts
June 12 2013 00:02 GMT
#18
I think WM should be adjusted against air units, it's complete BS when a big flock of mutas dies to a few forgotten mines by the Terran.
GO herO, Bunny, JangBi, Savage, BaBy, Pigbaby, StarDust, RoRo, Flying and Soulkey
AnomalySC2
Profile Joined August 2012
United States2073 Posts
June 12 2013 00:02 GMT
#19
Sounds good. I think David Kim knows what he is doing, I'm sure he will make the game more interesting as time passes.
onPHYRE
Profile Joined October 2010
Bulgaria923 Posts
June 12 2013 00:03 GMT
#20
Well I can't say I agree with not changing WMs or VRs but I figured they wouldn't.
Livin' this life like it was written.
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