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On June 12 2013 09:44 Badfatpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:39 DifuntO wrote:On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random Tanks are simple to use.Siege,target fire that's it. Widow mines are complicated.You don't know what's gonna happen before the battle.Their range is much smaller.It depends on the individual skill of the players(how they split,how they attack) A good terran can control his mines better,he has the micro to split the bio and target with mines(which is not that easy). A bad terran might blow up his whole army(with the help of a good zerg). I was going to quote the section wax did so I don't need to bother now...but how in the fuck do you justify a random factor in a large engagement to promote skill and be skill-based in any sense of the word. It's either you're watching a Zerg who is good with handling widow mines or a Zerg who is not. Very little Terran micro is needed for mines in maxed engagements, which I'm pretty sure is what Blizzard is referencing here. Bogus places them well on a consistant basis. Places. That's like...sieging tanks that takes way less time. Is that the skill we're supposed to be viewing as a spectator. The matchup was far more interesting when it was reliant on the siege tank, as bastardized a version of the BW tank as it is.
It is a bit random in lower levels of play but as i said good players can use them to their advantage(both terran and zerg),i'm talking mostly about targeting not positioning,that's the hard part!
How is marine tank exciting? Zerg just a-moves and someone wins.Mines are better for the viewer.
Also finally the zerg has to micro now,wow how crazy is that,right?
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On June 12 2013 09:06 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random I think he means the skill of splitting units off so Widow Mines don't kill everything? In otherwords, ForGG had no skill when he lost all his full Medivacs to his own Widow Mines when he played Stephano. Apparently, to David Kim, that had nothing to do with chance. Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:04 ( bush wrote:So our question here becomes “is this a good thing that Widow Mines have replaced Siege Tanks as the primary splash damage units?”
We believe the answer is yes. This is the only thing i disagree. Marine tank vs muta ling bane is super exciting. Sadly tanks dont have a place in that matchup (at least against muta ling bane) anymore, as 2 mines are clearly superior than a tank. I miss Muta/Ling/Bane versus Marine/Tank/Medivac so much. So dynamic and interesting.
There is definitely skill involved with minimizing mine damage but people also underestimate the skill behind spreading mines all over the map in good strategic spots. By itself you could say it's not that hard, but when you factor in everything else the player is doing, especially vs high skilled players where you're most likely constantly trading blows with his army/drops, it takes a lot of multi tasking to pull that off.
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On June 12 2013 09:45 skylarr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:44 Badfatpanda wrote:On June 12 2013 09:39 DifuntO wrote:On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random Tanks are simple to use.Siege,target fire that's it. Widow mines are complicated.You don't know what's gonna happen before the battle.Their range is much smaller.It depends on the individual skill of the players(how they split,how they attack) A good terran can control his mines better,he has the micro to split the bio and target with mines(which is not that easy). A bad terran might blow up his whole army(with the help of a good zerg). I was going to quote the section wax did so I don't need to bother now...but how in the fuck do you justify a random factor in a large engagement to promote skill and be skill-based in any sense of the word. It's either you're watching a Zerg who is good with handling widow mines or a Zerg who is not. Very little Terran micro is needed for mines in maxed engagements, which I'm pretty sure is what Blizzard is referencing here. Bogus places them well on a consistant basis. Places. That's like...sieging tanks that takes way less time. Is that the skill we're supposed to be viewing as a spectator. The matchup was far more interesting when it was reliant on the siege tank, as bastardized a version of the BW tank as it is. +1 50x
its funny that pretty much everyone agrees that we rather have good siege tanks than widow mines, which would also increase skill ceiling AND viewer experience.
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On June 12 2013 09:53 DifuntO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:44 Badfatpanda wrote:On June 12 2013 09:39 DifuntO wrote:On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random Tanks are simple to use.Siege,target fire that's it. Widow mines are complicated.You don't know what's gonna happen before the battle.Their range is much smaller.It depends on the individual skill of the players(how they split,how they attack) A good terran can control his mines better,he has the micro to split the bio and target with mines(which is not that easy). A bad terran might blow up his whole army(with the help of a good zerg). I was going to quote the section wax did so I don't need to bother now...but how in the fuck do you justify a random factor in a large engagement to promote skill and be skill-based in any sense of the word. It's either you're watching a Zerg who is good with handling widow mines or a Zerg who is not. Very little Terran micro is needed for mines in maxed engagements, which I'm pretty sure is what Blizzard is referencing here. Bogus places them well on a consistant basis. Places. That's like...sieging tanks that takes way less time. Is that the skill we're supposed to be viewing as a spectator. The matchup was far more interesting when it was reliant on the siege tank, as bastardized a version of the BW tank as it is. It is a bit random in lower levels of play but as i said good players can use them to their advantage(both terran and zerg),i'm talking mostly about targeting not positioning,that's the hard part! How is marine tank exciting? Zerg just a-moves and someone wins.Mines are better for the viewer. Also finally the zerg has to micro now,wow how crazy is that right?
This whole A-move zerg concept is a fallacy. Maybe it's true for diamond scrubs but at high levels, zerg will manually move and split their banelings to get max efficiency by killing marines, while zerglings are on attack command. Otherwise, the banelings will just crash into tanks, which is good trade for terran. It's easy to look at it and say oh that's just amove but as a zerg player i know the real deal
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On June 12 2013 09:01 BronzeKnee wrote:
Shocked that they won't change the Widow Mine.
It isn't overpowered statistically, but the effect it has on the game is dramatic. It controls APM better than any other unit, to the extent that in TvZ it allows Terran to dominate multitasking. Idra said this is the reason so many people have been doing Roach-Bane busts, simply because a Terran player who is good at multitasking can dominate an equally skilled Zerg player using Widow Mines. As a Protoss bystander, I'm inclined to agree when I watch high level Terran or Zerg streams. It ruined my favorite match up to watch for me.
Also as another poster said above, it promotes a chance aspect, rather than skill. The skill in using Tanks isn't just focus firing, it is in the positioning! Blizzard seems to have lost sight of this.
Yeah because Idra is the source I go to on ZvT balance
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How is the voidray promoting diversity or skills?
That unit is as A-move as it gets.
I really don't understand david kim's reasonings and then go and do the complete opposite.
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From a viewer standpoint, widow mines are way less interesting than siege tanks. Siege tanks are constant damage, a constant threat. Widow mines are one big boom and the engagement is already pretty much over one way or another. Not only that, but the constant threat of being caught unsieged created tension. There is no tension with widow mines in that regard with 1 sec burrow time.
Marine/tank was more fun to watch than Marine/mine. I wish they'd rebalance the tank to make it more viable again.
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On June 12 2013 09:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 08:58 Exarl25 wrote:On June 12 2013 08:53 jeeneeus wrote:
How about void rays in pvp? Or is that not really an issue? Hasn't been an issue for a while now. PvP is actually seeing a very wide diversity of openings and unit compositions, possibly more diversity than any other matchup ever actually. Of course in the late game Void Rays play a big role because they are an incredibly powerful unit but they are hardly all you make. And then of course you can deal with them pretty effectively with Psi Storm. I think I would very much agree that PvP is probably the most diverse matchup...which is so weird to say out loud haha
Yeah, this is true. There are some lovely things happening in PvP.
One reason why if the WP buff is to go ahead, it needs to be done carefully. If it is overbuffed, we may lose out on a lot of the flowering diversity in PvP for unending Robo based Immortal+Zealot drops (similar to the HB wars in TvT).
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On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random
When innovation uses mines and sees like 1 ling running in he unburrows the mine so it doesn't fire off on the 1 ling. He did the same thing when he did the marine widow mine drops where the mien would unburrow when small amounts of units got near. If a terran player doesn't do that it is quite clear that he will lose a lot of fights.
That's the only way I see innovation use mines differently than a lot of terrans do. so Im guessing this is what he is getting at
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More action and diversity???
Yup hellbat drop openings for every TvT sounds like more diversity.
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still no love for the tank
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On June 12 2013 10:04 Holdenintherye wrote:
More action and diversity???
Yup hellbat drop openings for every TvT sounds like more diversity.
zerg roach/bling all-ining every game vs terran is also more diversity
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With the addition of vipers and blinding cloud I think there is no reasons that siege tanks shouldnt see a little buff. We basically never see them in TvP and with the widow mine they are pretty much absent in TvZ as well now. The comment about the outcome of marine/tank in TvZ makes no sense to me really; I hardly think marine/tank vs muta/ling/bane would be one sided. If tanks got a buff we would see them more, which in turn would result in more vipers in TvZ which is a good thing because good micro and positioning would be rewarded. Widow mines are much more random in the damage they do whereas a good terran player will focus fire his tanks on banelings. Also mech play centered around siege tanks (what most people consider to be true mech) is still not very viable in any MU but TvT.
tl;dr: buff tanks they will promote more satisfying games than widow mines which are much more luck based.
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I think it's a little boring watching widow mine play every freaking game, but I guess there's no reasonable excuse for me to say, as it's only my opinion.
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8748 Posts
THANKS FOR THE SIT REP KEEP IT UP DKIM
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The Warp Prism change we tested last week is a good example of a tweak that benefits players who are amazing at multitasking, while having little effect on the game below the pro level. For an eSport game like SC2, we want more things in the game that separate out the very best from the average, not less.
Breaking news, Blizzard has just discovered something that everyone wanted since Beta.
+ Show Spoiler +
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All tech options are viable now throughout the course of the game.
I hope David Kim has this mentality for Terran as well. Terran's tech options are very limited in one matchup. Most higher tier units are useless. Why doesn't he address this as well?
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802 Posts
On June 12 2013 10:01 neoghaleon55 wrote:
How is the voidray promoting diversity or skills?
That unit is as A-move as it gets.
I really don't understand david kim's reasonings and then go and do the complete opposite.
I agree, but to be fair, Protoss as a race is literally the ultimate A move race and sprinkle in some FF's.
Just a horribly designed race.
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And the new Terran era has begun.
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On June 12 2013 10:18 larse wrote:I hope David Kim has this mentality for Terran as well. Terran's tech options are very limited in one matchup. Most higher tier units are useless. Why doesn't he address this as well?
Because mech in TvP wouldn't produce a dynamic game. It would be a boring, stagnant turtle-fest which culminates in a maxed army slowpushing unstoppably across the map. I do not want to see hour-long games where photon cannons, turrets, and nexus cannons basically force the game into a stalemate of viking/ghost/hellbat/tank/thor/whatever versus airtoss+storm. Aside from Templar, Ghosts and Vikings, the other units involved are slow, a-movish, and boring. Yes, that includes the Siege Tank in the context of TvP.
You would have to completely revamp the way mech actually works to make it interesting against Protoss. It kinda works against Terran and Zerg because Terran has the same dynamic to work with while Zerg has speed and creep and rabid tech switches. Protoss just plays very turtley in TvP to start with. Meching Terran would drain all the life from the matchup.
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EPT
