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On June 12 2013 09:27 lapengu wrote:
I liked widow mines more when they attached themselves to units, like in the HotS beta. Im just plat, so i know i really have no idea whats going on, but currently in ZvT i feel like there arent enough options for the zerg player.
Right... Zergs are all-inning so much because it's impossible to win a normal ZvT and not because all-inning with roach/banes gives a pretty fucking good chance to instantly win the game with the current metagame. Right.
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Blizzard's done a great job with balance, the game looks very balanced right now, and they have a strong track record. Given all this, I do think that Blizzard has earned the players' trust to make the right decisions when it comes to balance, and it is only a minority, who rarely understand the big picture and all the details, who complain or whine about balance.
I agree with their current approach of wait and see, with any change coming slow and steady.
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Now that they don't consider the siege tank as the main splash damage unit for T.. maybe they can think about buffing its unsieged attack a bit? :p
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On June 12 2013 09:31 skylarr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:25 TrickyGilligan wrote:On June 12 2013 09:22 Huragius wrote:
Not changing voidray- approve.
Not changing widow mines - disapprove.
Man these polls. You can easily see what races are the most represented lol. Must be having a lot of trouble with voidrays as... terran? Wait, what? I'm fine with Blizz letting this play out longer. I'm also glad that Hellbats are getting looked at, even though they didn't discuss that here. I feel like the game is very well balanced at this point, and neither the void rays or the widow mines should be a top priority for a change. balanced, yes. but dont you think the game would get boring as fuck when zerg has to all in every terran they're playing against? Eventually terrans will realize this and start playing safer, then zvt would be impossible
God fucking dammit are we ever going to reach a point in SC2 where Zerg are not the whiniest race? I've heard about ZvX becoming impossible so many times that I just don't buy it anymore. The WoL beta was a long, long time ago. Dropping the victim complex is long past due.
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On June 12 2013 09:35 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:27 lapengu wrote:
I liked widow mines more when they attached themselves to units, like in the HotS beta. Im just plat, so i know i really have no idea whats going on, but currently in ZvT i feel like there arent enough options for the zerg player. Right... Zergs are all-inning so much because it's impossible to win a normal ZvT and not because all-inning with roach/banes gives a pretty fucking good chance to instantly win the game with the current metagame. Right.
hit it right on the spot
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On June 12 2013 09:35 Exarl25 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:31 skylarr wrote:On June 12 2013 09:25 TrickyGilligan wrote:On June 12 2013 09:22 Huragius wrote:
Not changing voidray- approve.
Not changing widow mines - disapprove.
Man these polls. You can easily see what races are the most represented lol. Must be having a lot of trouble with voidrays as... terran? Wait, what? I'm fine with Blizz letting this play out longer. I'm also glad that Hellbats are getting looked at, even though they didn't discuss that here. I feel like the game is very well balanced at this point, and neither the void rays or the widow mines should be a top priority for a change. balanced, yes. but dont you think the game would get boring as fuck when zerg has to all in every terran they're playing against? Eventually terrans will realize this and start playing safer, then zvt would be impossible God fucking dammit are we ever going to reach a point in SC2 where Zerg are not the whiniest race? I've heard about ZvX becoming impossible so many times that I just don't buy it anymore. The WoL beta was a long, long time ago. Dropping the victim complex is long past due.
wanna tell me what i said is incorrect? otherwise your opinion doesnt matter
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On June 12 2013 09:35 Exarl25 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:31 skylarr wrote:On June 12 2013 09:25 TrickyGilligan wrote:On June 12 2013 09:22 Huragius wrote:
Not changing voidray- approve.
Not changing widow mines - disapprove.
Man these polls. You can easily see what races are the most represented lol. Must be having a lot of trouble with voidrays as... terran? Wait, what? I'm fine with Blizz letting this play out longer. I'm also glad that Hellbats are getting looked at, even though they didn't discuss that here. I feel like the game is very well balanced at this point, and neither the void rays or the widow mines should be a top priority for a change. balanced, yes. but dont you think the game would get boring as fuck when zerg has to all in every terran they're playing against? Eventually terrans will realize this and start playing safer, then zvt would be impossible God fucking dammit are we ever going to reach a point in SC2 where Zerg are not the whiniest race? I've heard about ZvX becoming impossible so many times that I just don't buy it anymore. The WoL beta was a long, long time ago. Dropping the victim complex is long past due.
Lol, seems like I'm not the only one who thinks like this.
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Seems like Blizzard is just patting themselves on the back and giving weak reasoning without acknowledging the deeper complexities of the game and favoring the spectator/action component. That's fine, but it doesn't equate to better games imo.
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On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random
Tanks are simple to use.Siege,target fire that's it.
Widow mines are complicated.You don't know what's gonna happen before the battle.Their range is much smaller.It depends on the individual skill of the players(how they split,how they attack)
A good terran can control his mines better,he has the micro to split the bio and target with mines(which is not that easy).
A bad terran might blow up his whole army(with the help of a good zerg).
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On June 12 2013 09:10 BlackPride wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 08:27 Qwyn wrote:
I'm amused by how Blizzard says that widow mines reward skillful usage from Terran players. I also "like" how they say that when an army of tanks and marines goes against an opposing Zerg force, that observers can tell who will win the battle and who will lose...
That indicates a problem to me. If it is so obvious that a Zerg will win or lose against a force of marine/tank, then it should also be equally obvious whether or not a Zerg will win against a force of marine/mine. It's not skill on the Terran's part to use mines - in fact, the usage of tanks promotes even more skill. Instead of setting and forgetting tanks, they can also be focus fired, spread out strategically across terrain, and can shell a target from a safe distance. Mine usage promotes a CHANCE aspect. The only skill involved in a Z v. burrowed mine engagement occurs on the side of the zerg, attempting to mitigate as much damage from the mine as possible.
Blizzard is so desperate to remove the siege tank from TvZ that they call getting a few tanks to defend against a roach/bane allin "getting tanks." If the siege tank and the mine clash so much that Terran players predominantly choose one over the other and tank usage has largely disappeared, then one of the units is poorly designed and should be fixed so that their roles do not conflict, or it should be removed.
I also think that Blizzard is focusing too much on removing defensive strategies such as swarmhost + static in order to avoid the infestor/broodlord effect, without actually considering why such strategies exist in the first place. The reason that strategy exists is that it is the only way that Zerg can consistently beat an endgame Protoss deathball. Instead of attempting to stamp that out Blizzard should consider why the comp exists in the first place and what is causing it...It's ironic because outside of two-base allins the sole goal of a Protoss is to turtle to death on 3 bases.
In attempting to remove anything that is not aggressive from the game Blizzard is removing a lot of options and complexity. Just because something is defensive does not mean it is bad. Do not focus so much on the spectator that you limit potential gameplay. The death of the siege tank is a prime example of this. I actually agree with everything said. Especially the point you make about mines being a chance factor, and that being the reason we don't know who's going to come ahead in an upcoming engagement. Tanks do require more skill.
I don't find it nice when a Terran loses it's whole army cause caught out of position with the marine tank composition. Widow mines imply more skill on the zerg side in order not to lose too many units. I personally believe that there are too many zergs at pro level which are not as skilled as certain Terrans or Protosses which should be in a higher position, but still they are there for some reason. In fact we are finally starting too see the other 2 races taking a deep breath after this long zerg dominance but zergs are still very competitive. I would do something to try and change PvZ instead, swarm host turtling is really boring (even Stephano says that) and zergs are way too cost efficient with that unit.
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Nice one, DK. I'm not too sold on some of the reasoning, but I like the end result. So, I can't complain. 
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On June 12 2013 09:35 Exarl25 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:31 skylarr wrote:On June 12 2013 09:25 TrickyGilligan wrote:On June 12 2013 09:22 Huragius wrote:
Not changing voidray- approve.
Not changing widow mines - disapprove.
Man these polls. You can easily see what races are the most represented lol. Must be having a lot of trouble with voidrays as... terran? Wait, what? I'm fine with Blizz letting this play out longer. I'm also glad that Hellbats are getting looked at, even though they didn't discuss that here. I feel like the game is very well balanced at this point, and neither the void rays or the widow mines should be a top priority for a change. balanced, yes. but dont you think the game would get boring as fuck when zerg has to all in every terran they're playing against? Eventually terrans will realize this and start playing safer, then zvt would be impossible God fucking dammit are we ever going to reach a point in SC2 where Zerg are not the whiniest race? I've heard about ZvX becoming impossible so many times that I just don't buy it anymore. The WoL beta was a long, long time ago. Dropping the victim complex is long past due.
No good sir. No.
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On June 12 2013 09:35 Exarl25 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:31 skylarr wrote:On June 12 2013 09:25 TrickyGilligan wrote:On June 12 2013 09:22 Huragius wrote:
Not changing voidray- approve.
Not changing widow mines - disapprove.
Man these polls. You can easily see what races are the most represented lol. Must be having a lot of trouble with voidrays as... terran? Wait, what? I'm fine with Blizz letting this play out longer. I'm also glad that Hellbats are getting looked at, even though they didn't discuss that here. I feel like the game is very well balanced at this point, and neither the void rays or the widow mines should be a top priority for a change. balanced, yes. but dont you think the game would get boring as fuck when zerg has to all in every terran they're playing against? Eventually terrans will realize this and start playing safer, then zvt would be impossible God fucking dammit are we ever going to reach a point in SC2 where Zerg are not the whiniest race? I've heard about ZvX becoming impossible so many times that I just don't buy it anymore. The WoL beta was a long, long time ago. Dropping the victim complex is long past due.
If you listen to zerg players, they'll have you believe that even during the bl winfestor era zerg was still underpowered. Utter nonsense.
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On June 12 2013 09:39 DifuntO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random Tanks are simple to use.Siege,target fire that's it. Widow mines are complicated.You don't know what's gonna happen before the battle.Their range is much smaller.It depends on the individual skill of the players(how they split,how they attack) A good terran can control his mines better,he has the micro to split the bio and target with mines(which is not that easy). A bad terran might blow up his whole army(with the help of a good zerg).
I was going to quote the section wax did so I don't need to bother now...but how in the fuck do you justify a random factor in a large engagement to promote skill and be skill-based in any sense of the word. It's either you're watching a Zerg who is good with handling widow mines or a Zerg who is not. Very little Terran micro is needed for mines in maxed engagements, which I'm pretty sure is what Blizzard is referencing here.
Bogus places them well on a consistant basis. Places. That's like...sieging tanks that takes way less time. Is that the skill we're supposed to be viewing as a spectator.
The matchup was far more interesting when it was reliant on the siege tank, as bastardized a version of the BW tank as it is.
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On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random
how is it random and not skill?
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On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random
this is the part that makes curious aswell, as it is the other way round.
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From reading the reactions I suppose non of you understood what DK meant by saying that it comes down to the skill of the players. Marine/tank vs. ling/bling/muta battles were always based on the fact if the terran was sieged up or not (hence the predictability). If he wasn't sieged zerg could just a move and crush the army. If he was, zerg could just retreat back and let terran progress on creep more while sniping tanks that were left behind sieged with mutas. And when the battle occured zerg had much less micro to do....dont waste blings on tanks and its game over. Terran still had to split marines pretty well and more importantly target tanks (after sieging them) on banelings to actually get rid of them. Not even mentioning end of 2012 when every Z went ling/bling/infestor and prevented any micro at all. ))
Now they both have to split and target very well and mines can still do more harm than good to the terran. I think its just much more stressfull for both players...zerg can loose all blings to a well placed widow mine if not careful and terran can still loose all his marines to few blings or fungal if not paying attention to his army for a second. (oh and bling landmines on hatchery tech could be pretty deadly)
EDIT: Im simplifying my statements on purpose, just to explain what i think he meant - i know its always not that easy to defeat marine tank. And also how i felt about WoL from playing all the races for some time.
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On June 12 2013 09:44 Badfatpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:39 DifuntO wrote:On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random Tanks are simple to use.Siege,target fire that's it. Widow mines are complicated.You don't know what's gonna happen before the battle.Their range is much smaller.It depends on the individual skill of the players(how they split,how they attack) A good terran can control his mines better,he has the micro to split the bio and target with mines(which is not that easy). A bad terran might blow up his whole army(with the help of a good zerg). I was going to quote the section wax did so I don't need to bother now...but how in the fuck do you justify a random factor in a large engagement to promote skill and be skill-based in any sense of the word. It's either you're watching a Zerg who is good with handling widow mines or a Zerg who is not. Very little Terran micro is needed for mines in maxed engagements, which I'm pretty sure is what Blizzard is referencing here. Bogus places them well on a consistant basis. Places. That's like...sieging tanks that takes way less time. Is that the skill we're supposed to be viewing as a spectator. The matchup was far more interesting when it was reliant on the siege tank, as bastardized a version of the BW tank as it is.
+1 50x
User was warned for this post
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WAIT. mech isnt good vs zerg and toss. vs zerg they need a good anti air non thor unit
otherwise mass muta is to good, and to hard to counter
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On June 12 2013 08:58 Exarl25 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 08:53 jeeneeus wrote:
How about void rays in pvp? Or is that not really an issue? Hasn't been an issue for a while now. PvP is actually seeing a very wide diversity of openings and unit compositions, possibly more diversity than any other matchup ever actually. Of course in the late game Void Rays play a big role because they are an incredibly powerful unit but they are hardly all you make.
And then of course you can deal with them pretty effectively with Psi Storm.
I think I would very much agree that PvP is probably the most diverse matchup...which is so weird to say out loud haha
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EPT
