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On June 12 2013 08:27 Qwyn wrote:
In attempting to remove anything that is not aggressive from the game Blizzard is removing a lot of options and complexity. Just because something is defensive does not mean it is bad. Do not focus so much on the spectator that you limit potential gameplay. The death of the siege tank is a prime example of this.
I think you're grossly overrepresenting Blizzard's position here. They have explicitly said the following things: they believe aggression should be easier than defense (promoting action-based gameplay), and that they are 'looking at' Swarmhost + mass defense strategies. Neither of those statements mean they are attempting to remove anything that isn't aggressive from the game. It only means that they are trying to not let the 'default' way of playing to be a 30 min no-rush snoozefest where the first person to engage into the massed defenses loses. That is neither fun to play nor to watch.
In addition, saying that the Siege Tank is 'dead' is a bit melodramatic. The point that it is still critical to TvT is valid, and you know what literally everybody was saying after Innovation dropped the GSL finals to Soulkey to a million Baneling/Roach attacks? "Why didn't Innovation build Tanks in the early to midgame to stay safe?" Certainly doesn't sound like the Tank is a dead unit if it's the only way to stay viably safe against aggressive Zerg play. As for TvP mech, well, that probably isn't fixed before either LotV or MVP revolutionizes another matchup.
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So our question here becomes “is this a good thing that Widow Mines have replaced Siege Tanks as the primary splash damage units?”
We believe the answer is yes.
This is the only thing i disagree. Marine tank vs muta ling bane is super exciting.
Sadly tanks dont have a place in that matchup (at least against muta ling bane) anymore, as 2 mines are clearly superior than a tank.
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SoCal, USA3955 Posts
On June 12 2013 08:21 Xivsa wrote:
Not a bad report. And it didn't mention Hellbats at all, but I hope that nerf will be coming soon.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=416744
David Kim already commented about hellbats, thy said they will look into it if it is too strong instead of jumping too quick on it at the moment.
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On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random
I'd also love to know how Marine Tank is always a definite result.
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On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random
I think he means the skill of splitting units off so Widow Mines don't kill everything?
In otherwords, ForGG had no skill when he lost all his full Medivacs to his own Widow Mines when he played Stephano. Apparently, to David Kim, that had nothing to do with chance.
On June 12 2013 09:04 ( bush wrote:Show nested quote +So our question here becomes “is this a good thing that Widow Mines have replaced Siege Tanks as the primary splash damage units?”
We believe the answer is yes. This is the only thing i disagree. Marine tank vs muta ling bane is super exciting. Sadly tanks dont have a place in that matchup (at least against muta ling bane) anymore, as 2 mines are clearly superior than a tank.
I miss Muta/Ling/Bane versus Marine/Tank/Medivac so much. So dynamic and interesting.
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So disappointed on the stance regarding Siege Tanks v Widow Mine. Balance aside (which I wouldn't comment on something I don't know that much about), I do admit that seeing the marine + widow mine control of players like INnoVation is quite a sight, but nothing in my heart will replace the sheer rugged manliness of a siege tank, whether in Marine + Siege Tank or Mech.
Now that I think about it, it may be the sound of the Siege Tank that makes it so damned satisfying.
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On June 12 2013 08:53 jeeneeus wrote:
How about void rays in pvp? Or is that not really an issue?
I don't see it being an issue in pvp at pro level. VRs can be countered, either by HT/Archon or by hitting a timing before they get in big numbers (it is easier to punish a double stargate switch than say double robo colossus). You actually see a lot a of diverse compositions in pvp and many funky timings - it's a combination of trying to get to the tech advantage and trying not to die while doing the switch. Overall, colossus armies are still the most common.
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On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random
Yeah, complete nonsense. Good luck predicting the outcome of Mine hits.
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I agree that the game is in a great state right now. The numbers reflect good balance and there are plenty of options in all MU's. At the same time, the pace of the game has definitely been picked up since WoL and requires more skill to play. Even more action all over the place. I strongly approve! Though it sounds like they are really consdering the warp prism buff and I already hate that unit enough =)
You could argue that window mines don't require more skill to use, but they definitely require much more skill to play again, which is a good thing 
Also this caught my eye:
and we’re willing to try out changes that sound cool in testing.
Really?! Now where is my test map for the baneling shooting spores?! ^_^
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I think Marines/Tanks are MORE indicative of skill than Marine/Widowmine more often than not, but that's just my opinion.
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On June 12 2013 08:27 Qwyn wrote:
I'm amused by how Blizzard says that widow mines reward skillful usage from Terran players. I also "like" how they say that when an army of tanks and marines goes against an opposing Zerg force, that observers can tell who will win the battle and who will lose...
That indicates a problem to me. If it is so obvious that a Zerg will win or lose against a force of marine/tank, then it should also be equally obvious whether or not a Zerg will win against a force of marine/mine. It's not skill on the Terran's part to use mines - in fact, the usage of tanks promotes even more skill. Instead of setting and forgetting tanks, they can also be focus fired, spread out strategically across terrain, and can shell a target from a safe distance. Mine usage promotes a CHANCE aspect. The only skill involved in a Z v. burrowed mine engagement occurs on the side of the zerg, attempting to mitigate as much damage from the mine as possible.
Blizzard is so desperate to remove the siege tank from TvZ that they call getting a few tanks to defend against a roach/bane allin "getting tanks." If the siege tank and the mine clash so much that Terran players predominantly choose one over the other and tank usage has largely disappeared, then one of the units is poorly designed and should be fixed so that their roles do not conflict, or it should be removed.
I also think that Blizzard is focusing too much on removing defensive strategies such as swarmhost + static in order to avoid the infestor/broodlord effect, without actually considering why such strategies exist in the first place. The reason that strategy exists is that it is the only way that Zerg can consistently beat an endgame Protoss deathball. Instead of attempting to stamp that out Blizzard should consider why the comp exists in the first place and what is causing it...It's ironic because outside of two-base allins the sole goal of a Protoss is to turtle to death on 3 bases.
In attempting to remove anything that is not aggressive from the game Blizzard is removing a lot of options and complexity. Just because something is defensive does not mean it is bad. Do not focus so much on the spectator that you limit potential gameplay. The death of the siege tank is a prime example of this.
I actually agree with everything said. Especially the point you make about mines being a chance factor, and that being the reason we don't know who's going to come ahead in an upcoming engagement. Tanks do require more skill.
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That's what I was referring to btw. And hence why "I hope" they'll take action against them soon..
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Sounds really really good, on the fun side try and implement some of the proposals from the community and try them on test maps
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On June 12 2013 09:09 sparklyresidue wrote:
I think Marines/Tanks are MORE indicative of skill than Marine/Widowmine more often than not, but that's just my opinion.
More indicative from the terran side maybe, but engaging into mines is much harder as zerg.
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I agree with the report and think voids and mines are fine. If I could pick 2 units to address it would be hellbats and swarmhosts though. Hellbats are most seeing use in early game + all ins which is mostly having a negative impact imo.
Also swarmhosts seem a too strong vs protoss in a few situations.
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On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random
Targeting with Widow Mines is a skill. For us at Diamond and below, if we try to target with a Widow Mine, we neglect other things such as macro, micro our Marines, etc.
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On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random
I don't think it requires one, really. Siege Tanks are not very strong and don't provide map control the way that Widow Mines do. Zergs are able to approach Sieged positions on creep far more easily than they can against Widow Mines especially in the mid-game.
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On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random
Exactly, good/bad engagement on Marines+Tanks can make a huge difference on the outcome. Mines seems much more random.
Hellbat note:
Even as a Terran player I think Blizzard might need to alter the Hellbat so the game doesn't get stale.
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On June 12 2013 09:12 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random Targeting with Widow Mines is a skill. For us at Diamond and below, if we try to target with a Widow Mine, we neglect other things such as macro, micro our Marines, etc.
I don't care if you're top tier GM, no Terran tells every mine where to fire. Splitting to mitigate splash is far more difficult and time-consuming to execute properly than aiming an AoE. Also if you really only have 1 mine, this is the only viable scenario. When its a mid-map battle with larger armies fighting it out, mines simply win. Its ridiculous to anyone possessing a high enough skill level to understand its mechanics. The point is the difficulties are not the same and they are claiming they are.
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Uhh not entirely sure what David Kim meant when he said mines are a more skillful unit than siege tanks, I swear most of the time I press E on those things and just pray for good connections -.-
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EPT
