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On June 12 2013 14:43 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 14:38 JDI1 wrote:
so those tards still think widow mines are fine? Cool. Burrow at frequent passes, go light a cigarette and watch as the other guy carelessly forgets his detector and loses half his army. Basically the same thing as burrowed banelings except cheaper, more powerful and don't require replacement or map awareness.
It sure is fun watching fast units trying to catch up to stim bio and getting shredded by mines as the terran kites backwards and observers/overseers are derping a mile behind.
PvP turned from colossi vs colossi into void rays vs void rays. Tempests are slowly becoming Carriers v.2 except some people still use them in PvP. Late game PvZ vs ultras they're worthless due to the extra damage working only on air units, and zergs are smart enough to not make BLs.
Next thing you know is even an SCV drop could do huge economical damage. You have to remember, while I don't disagree with some of your statements about awareness, what has HOTS actually given Terran? What new units? Warhound was taken out; Hellbat transformation nerfed to oblivion before launch; upgrades for mid tier units taking forever. What more do you want? Are you to say the reaper autoheal is what separates HOTS from WoL. I think Widow Mine drops and usage was more designed for high level play (something you may or may not have) so there might be a bias here.
Zerg is still playing ling baneling muta infestor ultra broodlords against Terran. It's not like Zerg is using any of the new units either. (worst of all, muta regen and speed increase is mostly for defending drops now, not for harassment)
We also don't see a lot of swarm host games in ZvP as well, while toss is still going for the usual deathball game.
Terran could have gotten a widow mine that goes well with marine tank instead of replacing the tank completely.
At least Hellbats are used in TvP and less so in TvZ sometimes and a lot in TvT
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i notice how all nonterrans love the siegetank xD because they are so easy to exploit and counter?
(and guess what, with a possible hellbatnerf you will see even less tanks...)
widowmines can be controlled to great effect, and if they arent, they can be easily baited on single targets or cause heavy friendly fire. tanks on the other hand have only gotten more counterplay in hots, especially zerg, either you now play full mech and stand your ground, or if you play bio, meaning you will always engage on the edge of creep, and split backwards,
you can
a) expose tank after tank and lose them
b) retreat over widowmines, making it very dangerous for zerg to just roll you
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+ Show Spoiler +
On June 12 2013 13:58 _Search_ wrote:
This guy seems to have no clue how to design a game. It's almost like he wants to make changes but can't justify fixing anything based on current win rates.
The win rates WILL change, just give it a month or two before the game devolves into timing attacks, just like WoL took a month or so to turn into marine/SCV all-ins every game.
Already we're seeing the power behind the ZvT Roach/bane all-in. If nothing changes that will literally become every single Korean TvZ. Koreans uniformly just find the "best" "most correct" build and repeat it to death, just look at how Soulkey stole a GSL title from Innovation based almost entirely on that one all-in. Does anyone actually think Soulkey was the best HotS in Korea that month??!!
Recently Protosses finally figured out that Zergs aren't allowed to kill air units and we're seeing ridiculously unfair no-risk hatchery snipes with recalled Void Rays. Expect that to increase as the meta stagnates.
Blizzard NEEDS to get on top of their game. It is far from balanced, it is quickly getting stale.
I totally think the same way. We moved from "this game is a joke but it is the beta they make VR, WM and HB super strong to force people to use it and they will nerf it afterwards" to "we're super fine with the balance" with one HB cargo change... Sriously ? Beyond balance its just not getting on top of the game design at all, and let the metagame evolves randomly. And the meta PvZ just evolved in 3 nexus 3 stargate shield and air attack upgrade out of 1 gate into free lair snipe with 7 voidray. Scary as shit.
Honestly Id rather see TvZ imbalance because right now smart zergs are forcing the 50 percent Winrate with roach baneling timings.
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It takes so much more apm for a Z to deal with widow mines than for a T to use them.. this 'analysis' of theirs seems pretty sloppy. Also, this mentality that drops = fun seems to only be considering audiences, and not players. Speedvac has made this game so much more about just staying at home and defending against that threat as a Z or a P. I was prepared to deal with a slow experience of waiting on blizz to be careful about addressing balance.. Z had it easy in the end of WoL. But.. this far into HotS, Blizzard's "patience" is starting to look more like ignorance, again. "We hear the voices of expert players, and fans at large. But we've done a poor job at looking into things ourselves, and have decided to do nothing."
Thanks for the update Blizz? :X
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On June 12 2013 14:53 Naphal wrote:
i notice how all nonterrans love the siegetank xD because they are so easy to exploit and counter?
(and guess what, with a possible hellbatnerf you will see even less tanks...)
widowmines can be controlled to great effect, and if they arent, they can be easily baited on single targets or cause heavy friendly fire. tanks on the other hand have only gotten more counterplay in hots, especially zerg, either you now play full mech and stand your ground, or if you play bio, meaning you will always engage on the edge of creep, and split backwards,
you can
a) expose tank after tank and lose them
b) retreat over widowmines, making it very dangerous for zerg to just roll you
The fact that widowmines are currently NOT controlled and are still as damaging as they are should lead you to being worried about the future when terrans START controlling them.
There may be a time when terran gets like 10 widow mines, burrows them in front of his marines and just stims the marines to kill lings/mutas (without microing the marines) and targets just banelings with the mines. Obviously this is just theory, but just putting the thought of untapped potential out there.
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On June 12 2013 14:53 Naphal wrote:
tanks on the other hand have only gotten more counterplay in hots
I dont feel like it. They have free siege mode. Infestor eggs are no longer likely to break siege tanks positions. Broodlords simply no more exist so you cannot really get caught on a full retreat with your tanks when ur suprised by broodlords.
The reason tanks are not used is because it is much easier to play with widow mines, and they are simply more cost efficient. (I think)
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On June 12 2013 15:01 v_lm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 14:53 Naphal wrote:
tanks on the other hand have only gotten more counterplay in hots I dont feel like it. They have free siege mode. Infestor eggs are no longer likely to break siege tanks positions. Broodlords simply no more exist so you cannot really get caught on a full retreat with your tanks when ur suprised by broodlords. The reason tanks are not used is because it is much easier to play with widow mines, and they are simply more cost efficient. (I think)
I think you forgot vipers. They're the best counter to tanks.
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On June 12 2013 13:56 megapants wrote:
corruptor needs to be reworked, if not just straight up buffed. as of right now, it's only strength is as a mid game colossus killer and a buffer for mutalisks vs phoenix. zerg needs an air to air unit that can actually be used to support your ground army.
So while admitting corruptors work against colossi and phoenix, you also want them to work against void ray, basically forcing the protoss to go stalker, a unit that per cost is countered by every zerg unit able to hit it - including drones?
Overall while pro balance would look okay-ish, if the protoss in Code S/WCS manage to not only show up in numbers but actually win something, the amount of hellbat drops in tvt and to a lesser extent tvp is a pain to watch.
I like the "wait and see" approach currently used by Blizzard/Kim. After the terrible last months of WoL HotS made several matchups including all involving zerg interesting to watch again.
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No change at this time is a good thing.
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David Kim, telling the truth as always. Guy knows what he is talking about.
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On June 12 2013 15:01 v_lm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 14:53 Naphal wrote:
tanks on the other hand have only gotten more counterplay in hots I dont feel like it. They have free siege mode. Infestor eggs are no longer likely to break siege tanks positions. Broodlords simply no more exist so you cannot really get caught on a full retreat with your tanks when ur suprised by broodlords. The reason tanks are not used is because it is much easier to play with widow mines, and they are simply more cost efficient. (I think)
I would agree with the sentiment that tanks aren't used as much not because they're bad, but because mines and Hellbats are more efficient. Not to mention that mines can hit air, an undeniable advantage compared to siege tanks.
Oh and indeed, blinding cloud from Vipers is an effective countermeasure against tanks (though it can be mitigated by spreading tanks... you would think that it actually requires careful positioning and play to actually use tanks!), whereas blinding cloud does NOT work against mines. That's arguably a design flaw. Blinding cloud should really blind anything under it.. perhaps you could play the devil's advocate by saying that mines are actually spell casters, but I would counter that by saying that you don't actively use an ability..
I'm just throwing that out there, if anyone reads my posts at all during balance discussions they'll know I tend to prefer having a professional opinion instead of hearing what 99% of the community may or may not think. I do like to give my 2 cents though).
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Some of those statements are a bit iffy, tanks obviously take more skill to use, just by design of unit this is noticable.. Siege Tanks are more often micromanaged then mines, as far as focus firing goes and such. Do people even take the time to focus fire with mines? is it even possible or with the APM actually?
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On June 12 2013 14:53 Naphal wrote:
i notice how all nonterrans love the siegetank xD because they are so easy to exploit and counter?
I'm Terran and I sure as hell love the siege tank. Really disappointed to hear those blizzard comments about it.
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On June 12 2013 13:58 _Search_ wrote:
This guy seems to have no clue how to design a game. It's almost like he wants to make changes but can't justify fixing anything based on current win rates.
The win rates WILL change, just give it a month or two before the game devolves into timing attacks, just like WoL took a month or so to turn into marine/SCV all-ins every game.
Already we're seeing the power behind the ZvT Roach/bane all-in. If nothing changes that will literally become every single Korean TvZ. Koreans uniformly just find the "best" "most correct" build and repeat it to death, just look at how Soulkey stole a GSL title from Innovation based almost entirely on that one all-in. Does anyone actually think Soulkey was the best HotS in Korea that month??!!
Recently Protosses finally figured out that Zergs aren't allowed to kill air units and we're seeing ridiculously unfair no-risk hatchery snipes with recalled Void Rays. Expect that to increase as the meta stagnates.
Blizzard NEEDS to get on top of their game. It is far from balanced, it is quickly getting stale.
So what you are saying is that it took several months for certain timing attacks to get figured out, and now we can't wait a month to see if also counters get figured out?
If you worked at Blizzard we probably got yet another queen boost, but this time vs air, no thanks.
Some of those statements are a bit iffy, tanks obviously take more skill to use, just by design of unit this is noticable.. Siege Tanks are more often micromanaged then mines, as far as focus firing goes and such. Do people even take the time to focus fire with mines? is it even possible or with the APM actually?
I guess it is possible, but won't happen much. But I really wouldn't say tanks are more micro managed than mines, just different. Yeah they are probably target fired a bit more, but for example if you are susprised by enemy army, quickly sieging up all your tanks in random location works better than burrowing widow mines wherever they are.
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On June 12 2013 15:01 v_lm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 14:53 Naphal wrote:
tanks on the other hand have only gotten more counterplay in hots I dont feel like it. They have free siege mode. Infestor eggs are no longer likely to break siege tanks positions. Broodlords simply no more exist so you cannot really get caught on a full retreat with your tanks when ur suprised by broodlords. The reason tanks are not used is because it is much easier to play with widow mines, and they are simply more cost efficient. (I think)
Vipers are quite a hard counter to tanks, broodlords still exist and while infestors were nerfed, their range still makes them a very viable unit. The reason why tanks are less used in tvz is a combination of factors. First, marine tank is quite unforgiving. In addition to regular play, broodlords and the new ultras will wreck through the bio and then the tanks in short order. Second, vipers and faster mutas can ruin tank play really hard. Third, bio mine play is better in terms of cost (as you said) and also allows terran to play like zerg. e.g. macro up and then swarm units.
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On June 12 2013 15:12 QCD wrote:
Some of those statements are a bit iffy, tanks obviously take more skill to use, just by design of unit this is noticable.. Siege Tanks are more often micromanaged then mines, as far as focus firing goes and such. Do people even take the time to focus fire with mines? is it even possible or with the APM actually?
As far as reading this thread and also another thread regarding micro with mines, there are three aspects to micro and mines that I'm aware of.
- As shown by Innovation, it's possible to unburrow mines when a single unit is coming at them so as to not waste their shot. This is definitely APM heavy, not sure by how much though.
- It is possible to "manually" fire a widow mine by continually right-clicking a unit that comes in range, so that the activation (1.5 seconds, iirc) is reset. Again, this allows you to not waste a shot on something like Roaches and instead target banelings.
- If you can kill mines in less than 1.5 seconds, you won't take damage vs them. Meaning you have to kill the mine in a single volley with Muta, for example. Someone mentioned the magic number of Mutas to have to kill a single mine and then the magic number for 2 or 3 mines. I don't remember these numbers.
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Void Rays seems to have the same balance problems as Colosus, they are (too) strong on lower level of play but on pro level they get weaker and weaker with better scouting and decision making.
Hellbats on the other hand looks kind of the late wol infestor. Everyone agrees that they are kind of too good because to cost efficient and too useful in any situations but they are so heavily used because terran has not that many other options. Imagine they would cut out the Hellbat drops completely, it would be not viable to drop because the other harass options are got way worse as in wol (mines, Planentary Nexus...).
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On June 12 2013 13:58 _Search_ wrote:
This guy seems to have no clue how to design a game. It's almost like he wants to make changes but can't justify fixing anything based on current win rates.
The win rates WILL change, just give it a month or two before the game devolves into timing attacks, just like WoL took a month or so to turn into marine/SCV all-ins every game.
Already we're seeing the power behind the ZvT Roach/bane all-in. If nothing changes that will literally become every single Korean TvZ. Koreans uniformly just find the "best" "most correct" build and repeat it to death, just look at how Soulkey stole a GSL title from Innovation based almost entirely on that one all-in. Does anyone actually think Soulkey was the best HotS in Korea that month??!!
Recently Protosses finally figured out that Zergs aren't allowed to kill air units and we're seeing ridiculously unfair no-risk hatchery snipes with recalled Void Rays. Expect that to increase as the meta stagnates.
Blizzard NEEDS to get on top of their game. It is far from balanced, it is quickly getting stale.
What's wrong with waiting a bit to see what's going on? You JUST saw the meta shift for zergs to wreck the current 3 CC terran build. Terrans will switch it up and then zerg, etc. That is the exact opposite of a stale game. Soulkey won the GSL partly because he used the best builds against the players he faced. Good on him to exploit the all-in. Would you do a knee jerk reaction buff/nerf when things are still in massive shift?
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On June 12 2013 15:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 15:12 QCD wrote:
Some of those statements are a bit iffy, tanks obviously take more skill to use, just by design of unit this is noticable.. Siege Tanks are more often micromanaged then mines, as far as focus firing goes and such. Do people even take the time to focus fire with mines? is it even possible or with the APM actually? As far as reading this thread and also another thread regarding micro with mines, there are three aspects to micro and mines that I'm aware of. - As shown by Innovation, it's possible to unburrow mines when a single unit is coming at them so as to not waste their shot. This is definitely APM heavy, not sure by how much though.
- It is possible to "manually" fire a widow mine by continually right-clicking a unit that comes in range, so that the activation (1.5 seconds, iirc) is reset. Again, this allows you to not waste a shot on something like Roaches and instead target banelings.
- If you can kill mines in less than 1.5 seconds, you won't take damage vs them. Meaning you have to kill the mine in a single volley with Muta, for example. Someone mentioned the magic number of Mutas to have to kill a single mine and then the magic number for 2 or 3 mines. I don't remember these numbers.
I can add some more:
Location you burrow them in. Since you have them generally unburrowed, you also have to burrow them quickly in the correct location. Sure someone will say it is trivial, but for example I generally play bio-mech, with some mine support. If a ling/baneling/muta army comes rolling in, you have to siege up your tanks, stim + split your bio, and then also burrow your widow mines in places where they are actually relevant to the fight.
Micro of others units: A while ago I did in the unit test a test (duh) of marine + mine vs zerglings. And to make it fair, both sides unmicro'd, obviously roughly equal cost/supply: Result: mutual assured destruction. Against unmicro'd marines (both with and without stim) the widow mines did so much friendly fire everything just died.
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On June 12 2013 15:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 15:12 QCD wrote:
Some of those statements are a bit iffy, tanks obviously take more skill to use, just by design of unit this is noticable.. Siege Tanks are more often micromanaged then mines, as far as focus firing goes and such. Do people even take the time to focus fire with mines? is it even possible or with the APM actually? As far as reading this thread and also another thread regarding micro with mines, there are three aspects to micro and mines that I'm aware of. - As shown by Innovation, it's possible to unburrow mines when a single unit is coming at them so as to not waste their shot. This is definitely APM heavy, not sure by how much though.
- It is possible to "manually" fire a widow mine by continually right-clicking a unit that comes in range, so that the activation (1.5 seconds, iirc) is reset. Again, this allows you to not waste a shot on something like Roaches and instead target banelings.
- If you can kill mines in less than 1.5 seconds, you won't take damage vs them. Meaning you have to kill the mine in a single volley with Muta, for example. Someone mentioned the magic number of Mutas to have to kill a single mine and then the magic number for 2 or 3 mines. I don't remember these numbers.
Not only that, but innovation's widow mine play is quite a bit better than other terrans. One major "skill' thing in addition to the burrow/unborrow micro he does is positioning. I'd argue that, while tanks might require more in-battle micro (target firing, which isn't that much different than burrow/unborrow micro). mines require more pre-battle positioning. WoL tank play mostly involves sieging 6-8 or so tanks in reasonable position, most of the time not even splitting them up individually that much (because vipers didn't exist). HotS mines require something like 10+ mines being positioned individually. Innovation makes engagements that can be fairly random without mine targeting/positioning be fairly predictably good for him.
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EPT
