EPTHellbats Review - Page 27
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Lock0n
United Kingdom184 Posts
It's all part of the Meta, and as usual, Protoss and Zergs are just looking for an excuse to nerf Terran just because T won a tournament and note how the whining starts immediately after the tournament ends. The Meta game should be left alone for at least a few months, if by then every single TvT is hellbats then yes Blizzard should look at it. There is a massive vulnerability in defence in a standard hellbat drop rush build, I am sure players will start adapting builds to exploit this timing, just watch and see. Even something as crazy as fe into 2 port Viking/raven/banshee would destroy hellbat builds. | ||
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it? No changes required for the following reasons:- Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:- Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :- 1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend This is a learn to play issue simple as that. Terran has the best unit to stop hellbat drops then why does e very pro terran seem to fail so hard and lacking in good response? Obvious answer is that it comes out to fast early, midgame you can't really afford that much static and leaving too many units in fringe expos. Late game is when hellbat drops should lose value since you can build turrets everywhere unless you get to the extrem late game when everything is mind out and every kill counts then hellbatdrop should be valid again. I don't really mind the hellbat drop thingy and drop TvT is really funny to watch but it is still too strong. On June 10 2013 22:08 Lock0n wrote: Hellbat wars are awesome, hellbat drops are the coolest thing in SC2. People just have to learm to adapt to them. Yes they are strong units, but they require a massive commitment in tech, and delays other tech by a long time. If you want an early game hellbat drop, then dont expect Stim and CS finished before 11mins. Oracles can kill workers just as fast as a hellbat drop. + Show Spoiler + It's all part of the Meta, and as usual, Protoss and Zergs are just looking for an excuse to nerf Terran just because T won a tournament and note how the whining starts immediately after the tournament ends. The Meta game should be left alone for at least a few months, if by then every single TvT is hellbats then yes Blizzard should look at it. There is a massive vulnerability in defence in a standard hellbat drop rush build, I am sure players will start adapting builds to exploit this timing, just watch and see. Even something as crazy as fe into 2 port Viking/raven/banshee would destroy hellbat builds. Well, hellbat drops don't die to 5 marines just saying. | ||
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nojok
France15846 Posts
On June 10 2013 21:00 Topdoller wrote: That was one set of game. The Pros will adapt and counter. Give it 2 - 6 months. This post by the OP is a balance whine. He just says they're fine, that MUs are balanced overall but that hellbat are too strong in mineral lines, we've seen way worse here. For once it was an interested read on balance, which is not often. The problem is that if we remove this powerful weapon in terran's arsenal, do they need a slight compensation elsewhere? I'd rather wait and see. | ||
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Lock0n
United Kingdom184 Posts
On June 10 2013 22:13 Elldar wrote: Terran has the best unit to stop hellbat drops then why does e very pro terran seem to fail so hard and lacking in good response? Obvious answer is that it comes out to fast early, midgame you can't really afford that much static and leaving too many units in fringe expos. Late game is when hellbat drops should lose value since you can build turrets everywhere unless you get to the extrem late game when everything is mind out and every kill counts then hellbatdrop should be valid again. I don't really mind the hellbat drop thingy and drop TvT is really funny to watch but it is still too strong. Well, hellbat drops don't die to 5 marines just saying. Hellbat drops can't hit at 5 mins. Just saying. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On June 10 2013 22:06 Sated wrote: 27 page thread with tonnes of players saying they don't like it. "Everyone likes it". >_> EDIT: In WoL, Mech was perfectly viable in both TvZ and TvT. The only place where it wasn't viable was in TvP. Guess what? It still isn't as viable as Bio in TvP. Sorry, I miswrote that post, meant mech vs toss. But apparently there a good buffer isn't required... | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 10 2013 22:06 Sated wrote: 27 page thread with tonnes of players saying they don't like it. "Everyone likes it". >_> EDIT: In WoL, Mech was perfectly viable in both TvZ and TvT. The only place where it wasn't viable was in TvP. Guess what? It still isn't as viable as Bio in TvP. This thread of whining low skilled players != the opinion of pro gamers. Morrow is obviously referring to top level players. | ||
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
On June 10 2013 21:58 Sated wrote: Removal of the unit would also be an ideal solution. Tanks don't need a solid buffer, they just need a buffer. Hellions serve this purpose just fine cf. Marine/Tank play. EDIT: Defending this unit is far more "hilarious" than even the most retarded nerf suggestion could ever be  Fairly certain you were whining about hellbats the other day but the unit is pretty much fine. Probably needs a blue flame nerf to stop them instantly murdering entire worker lines but other than that? Nothing big. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 10 2013 22:03 MorroW wrote: hellbat drop in tvz and tvp is not straight up overpowered in tvp i sometimes win on the first hellbat drop alone (it goes in and kills like 10 workers, the medivac gets away and the hellbats left to die) in tvz it sometimes snowballs into me getting too big of an advantage that i end up too far ahead and can steamroll. but in most cases against equally good players hellbat drops do not end games like this, usually it gets me even footing with my opponent, its not really a go-to build as much as "another build" to use sometimes. there are risks involved rushing hellbat drops against protoss and zerg as well that should be considered when talking about this. how to deal with hellbat drops through good play and fast reactions rather than over-investing in defenses hellbat drops are defended more through reaction time and being prepared rather than having enough investment of defenses. 3 stalkers and a cannon with a quick probe pull gets you much farther than 3 stalkers 2 cannons and no probe pull. deal with the medivac, pull your workers and cleanup is the way to go rather than enough damage output to completely fuck this over before anything can drop, that amount of damage output investment is unrealistic against a boosted medivac into any mineral line at any point of the game. hellbats arent ending every tvt game, not even close and now to tvt. tvt i do it every game, my opponents do it every game. most games we deal no damage at all to each other because we are high enough level to defend them. only if both players go full on aggression at each other both are left undefended. many games of innovation in his tvt's he had a hellbat build where he had 1-2 marines at home to defend... a risky build to say the least. Hey, I wanted to ask a follow up question: Doesn't that mean that it is the exact same in all matchups? Like, in TvZ and TvP it is defendable if you play properly as P/Z. In TvT it is defendable without going hellbats yourself, if you play properly. You usually get to even footing if the defending P/Z/T does a good job. So, would you say that the only reason why TvT is both players doing hellbat drops, is that the hellbat drop usually gets you on even footing if your opponent is prepared, so there is little reason not to hellbat drop. Ergo, hellbat drops are simply the best catchall build in TvT, though there would be other possibilities to get even with hellbat drops as well? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 10 2013 22:30 Targe wrote: This thread of whining low skilled players != the opinion of pro gamers. Morrow is obviously referring to top level players. Agreed on that part. The hellbat has made all the TvX matchups less stale, but I am sure it kicks the shit out of some lower level players(hell, it kicks my ass). People who want to play a super-turtle-macro style must hate them. If anything, I think that all three races could use a little boost to some part of their anti-air suite, but that is it. I have always felt that anti air in SC2 is a bit lack luster(with the exception of the marine, but now they are a bit underwhelming in HotS too) and a little buff would go a long way. | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
On June 10 2013 22:30 Targe wrote: This thread of whining low skilled players != the opinion of pro gamers. Morrow is obviously referring to top level players. Ok, then. We must stop complaining.Me, as a player find the "hellbat wars" boring, disgusting and chaotic to execute,but then you see ZvZ and there are lot of "baneling wars".Maybe we SHOULD adapt and learn that it has become part of the early game in TvT,as is the banshee,hellion or widow mine harass.Still dont like it,but if this is the way to go in TvT.. As a viewer...It is very micro intensive and pretty exciting for casters, but I still dont like it and find it too low skill to execute. Send the medivac,hope for a bad enemy defense and kill 12 workers almost instantly wont make me believe the T is one of the best in the world. If every game is like this...At least in ZvZ they can stop banelings with some roaches or spines and its difficult to reach the mineral line and thats why its so great to see... | ||
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
On June 10 2013 22:45 Dvriel wrote: Ok, then. We must stop complaining.Me, as a player find the "hellbat wars" boring, disgusting and chaotic to execute,but then you see ZvZ and there are lot of "baneling wars".Maybe we SHOULD adapt and learn that it has become part of the early game in TvT,as is the banshee,hellion or widow mine harass.Still dont like it,but if this is the way to go in TvT.. As a viewer...It is very micro intensive and pretty exciting for casters, but I still dont like it and find it too low skill to execute. Send the medivac,hope for a bad enemy defense and kill 12 workers almost instantly wont make me believe the T is one of the best in the world. If every game is like this...At least in ZvZ they can stop banelings with some roaches or spines and its difficult to reach the mineral line and thats why its so great to see... Remember how long it took for players to build Evo Chambers in ZvZ to create chokes? People are obviously adapting as you can see at pro level. Not all strategies involve the same amount of micro, it´s always been like that. But a good defense renders a blind hellbat drop into the mineral line useless. E.g. what we´re seeing in PvT is Toss building one cannon per mineral line. Hellbat automatically attack the cannon and give you additional time to pull probes, same goes for spines. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On June 10 2013 22:03 MorroW wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 10 2013 02:41 MorroW wrote: would i be totally crazy to suggest they buff the turret instead of nerfing hellbats? looks like my attempt to have terran buffed while leaving hellbats alone failed  hellbat drop is pretty much better than the other harassing techniques, does that mean its op? the hellbat drops seem abit ridiculous when you compare it to other things. i think these are the most similar harassing techniques to the hellbat drop, but all of them have have clear weaknesses why we dont really see it as such a problem. but in the end, something has to be stronger and things work in different ways. doesnt necessarily mean its too strong. hellbat drop in tvz and tvp is not straight up overpowered in tvp i sometimes win on the first hellbat drop alone (it goes in and kills like 10 workers, the medivac gets away and the hellbats left to die) in tvz it sometimes snowballs into me getting too big of an advantage that i end up too far ahead and can steamroll. but in most cases against equally good players hellbat drops do not end games like this, usually it gets me even footing with my opponent, its not really a go-to build as much as "another build" to use sometimes. there are risks involved rushing hellbat drops against protoss and zerg as well that should be considered when talking about this. It is true, that's why it's less a problem because once mutalisk are out, you can shut down HB drop and before that you can defend without too much of a loss. However, the problem I see with it is that even when you have a perfect defense and shut down every drops without losing anything, you're not that much ahead. I understand that HB drops slow down upgrades and your economy and I'm not minimizing this investment, but down the road if your HB drop is perfectly defended you only lose 200 minerals, and even if no worker are killed by the drop, it takes only 18 secondes of drone not mining minerals to compensate the cost of two hellbat. Removing the heal would reduce the amount of time you need to kill them obviously, so it will be less stronger in fight against little amount of units, making it easier to defend, but this would not remove the threat of the Hellbat drop itself. Anyway as a zerg player, my complain about Hellbat is mostly that it has ruined what was the best mirror match up to watch in WoL. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 10 2013 22:53 Vanadiel wrote: It is true, that's why it's less a problem because once mutalisk are out, you can shut down HB drop and before that you can defend without too much of a loss. However, the problem I see with it is that even when you have a perfect defense and shut down every drops without losing anything, you're not that much ahead. I understand that HB drops slow down upgrades and your economy and I'm not minimizing this investment, but down the road if your HB drop is perfectly defended you only lose 200 minerals, and even if no worker are killed by the drop, it takes only 18 secondes of drone not mining minerals to compensate the cost of two hellbat. Anyway as a zerg player, my complain about Hellbat is mostly that it has ruined what was the best mirror match up to watch in WoL. Which basically just means that hellbat drops are more or less a standard build. It usually doesn't fall behind against most things, but may straight up win sometimes. Which is not different to a 6queen build in TvZ, which may straight up win against an overagressive Terran and break even in most other cases. And still, even if it doesn't fall behind greatly, I think winning after perfectly defending hellbat drops is still a better situation, than not allinning against a 3CC double ebay. | ||
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bhfberserk
Canada390 Posts
I am a Terran player myself. GO TERRAN METAL! I just want to get more insight. hellbat drop is pretty much better than the other harassing techniques, does that mean its op? the hellbat drops seem abit ridiculous when you compare it to other things. Comparing Hellbat drop to other Terran's options (Banshee, BFHellions drop/run by, widow mine...etc), do you think Hellbat is one of the most rewarding but also the safest strategy? hellbats arent ending every tvt game, not even close and now to tvt. tvt i do it every game, my opponents do it every game. most games we deal no damage at all to each other because we are high enough level to defend them. only if both players go full on aggression at each other both are left undefended. many games of innovation in his tvt's he had a hellbat build where he had 1-2 marines at home to defend... a risky build to say the least. I understand most TvT games that open with Hellbat doesn't end early, can often transition into mid-late game. But is Hellbat drop slowly becoming the dominant opener? If so, do you think it hurts the variety of early TvT. If not, what other standard builds are great to open TvT? defending the hellbat drop -turret in your mineral line ensures the medivac dies if it hunts the evacuating scvs -widow mine in the mineral line close to guarantees killing the medivac now to actually cleaning up the hellbats, you need either hellbats, hellions, marines, or marines in a bunker. things like landing viking or a flying banshee wont kill them quick enough to make the loss of miniing time not be damage enough (even if 0 scvs dies if they have to stop mining for 10-20 seconds it can be more damage done than the 2 hellbat investment) Comparing Hellbat drop to other TvT options. Do you think it is true that Hellbat drop requires more defense investment to shut down? If so, does that mean opening Hellbat drop is favored because it forces your opponent to invest? I understand this doesn't apply to lower level play as one extra bunker and turret will not cause you the game. But what if it is the highest level? conclusion i think the game is fine at this point, every matchup players are learning how to deal with them better and better. strong harassing tools is interesting and everyone likes it, thats why blizzard is pushing it It is fair enough to wait and see. Respect everyone's opinion. Again, not a post about "Let's nerf it right now, it is ruining Esport right this moment but "Is it time to look at hellbat? Is it becoming the best choice in TvT which makes the match up one dimension." | ||
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On June 10 2013 23:01 bhfberserk wrote: Comparing Hellbat drop to other Terran's options (Banshee, BFHellions drop/run by, widow mine...etc), do you think Hellbat is one of the most rewarding but also the safest strategy? I'd say so, yes. Main reason is because Hellbat's naturally transition into a normal game, essentially going hellbats IS a normal game. If you go for something like cloak banshee you're investing a huge amount of early game resource into something you'll probably never use again. Edit; not to mention if you don't do any damage with cloak banshee, you're almost guaranteed to lose. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On June 10 2013 22:57 Big J wrote: Which basically just means that hellbat drops are more or less a standard build. It usually doesn't fall behind against most things, but may straight up win sometimes. Which is not different to a 6queen build in TvZ, which may straight up win against an overagressive Terran and break even in most other cases. And still, even if it doesn't fall behind greatly, I think winning after perfectly defending hellbat drops is still a better situation, than not allinning against a 3CC double ebay. Well, then the question is to ask wether it is normal if it's a standard. it's seems to me, from my understanding of the game, that it's a build that either win you the game right when it's done, put you way ahead when it's done or, worst case scenario, a little bit behind and then the game continue. Proxy 2 rax, proxy reaper, good old 2 factory blue flame hellion and so on are all build that can also finish the game, but they are more risks involved to do it, defending them put you ahead, the ratio between reward/risk seems too big for the HB drop compared to other build. | ||
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Holo82
Austria107 Posts
Workers are way faster than hellbats. The scary thing is pickup micro, which can easily be avoided by standard aa defense. A marine drop into a workerline is guaranteed dmg. A hellbat drop does hope for the opponent to not react to be able to do any dmg at all, except delay mining a little bit until the drop is cleared. And the "good tactical positioning": a bunch of marines, a mine, a siegetank, a turret, all those deny hellbatdrops as well as any other drops. In tvt there is no dying to hellbat drops, as long as u care for defense. I am way more scared by Hellion runbays or early mine /marine assaults than by the easy to figure out hellbats. If both sides go nuts on offensive than its the same for both sides, but as long as you know the hellbats are coming, they are guaranteed to do zero dmg. Its the same as 1 base widowmine drop opener vs 1 base dts. | ||
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
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