EPTThat's be great
Hellbats Review - Page 26
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pHenakism
United States4 Posts
That's be great | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 10 2013 21:15 binski wrote: simple as that, case closed guys This man knows more from watching pro streams an hour a day than most korean terrans who train over 10+ hours per day Yep. Just PF your main and natural and leave one Banshee at each base. Solution of genius. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On June 10 2013 21:16 SCguineapig wrote: this can work but you have to remember that even then the drops in the mineral line are still really annoying. i would like to see this though because it is bullshit that a unit out of the factory can be biological. then i want to see my collosus becoming biological too so it can be healed in teamgames. Yeah, they are annoying, so let's nerf them! On a serious note: 4 marines dropped in your mineral line do as much damage and are also annoying. | ||
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MasterDrone
France50 Posts
Com'on, a 135HP, 50dmg+ to light, fast speed when combine with speedvac, and production price is so cheap (100 mineral)??? If mech is not viable, it's the other MECH units' fault, and Blizz please go buff them, not create a monstrous tool like Hellbat. | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
On June 10 2013 21:19 TheDwf wrote: Yep. Just PF your main and natural and leave one Banshee at each base. Solution of genius. Indeed it is. Try thinking out of the box once in a while or you could spend the rest of your life being a "button pusher" Basically i am stating too early for changes give it 6 months and let the Pros work it out | ||
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On June 10 2013 21:19 TheDwf wrote: Yep. Just PF your main and natural and leave one Banshee at each base. Solution of genius. god fucking damnit, why didn't we discover this earlier? PF's in main is impenetrable | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 10 2013 21:24 MasterDrone wrote: The main problem is not about the damage of Hellbat but its huge HP. With proper defense, the damage will not be so huge, but even though with proper defense, huge HP hellbat still takes a lot of mining time out of the opponent, making it's such an efficient harassment tool. Com'on, a 135HP, 50dmg+ to light, fast speed when combine with speedvac, and production price is so cheap (100 mineral)??? If mech is not viable, it's the other MECH units' fault, and Blizz please go buff them, not create a monstrous tool like Hellbat. 30 + 3 per upgrade actually, but you're right, a few hyperboles can't hurt. | ||
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Chrono000
Korea (South)358 Posts
On June 10 2013 06:13 iky43210 wrote: different races are different, or do you want to compare roaches with marines now? lol... u have compare units with relation. the marine is 50 mins and no hp long range and high dps. the roach is super tank cost gas and has not range so you wouldnt compare them. instead u might compare the marine to the ling. banes to the hellbat is a ok to compare because they do same damage just about and have very close range fighting with splash. id say the connection is sound enough to compare. so dont go saying u cant compare units and races, its a huge part of the game to draw these ideas and comparisons out. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 10 2013 21:33 Chrono000 wrote: lol... u have compare units with relation. the marine is 50 mins and no hp long range and high dps. the roach is super tank cost gas and has not range so you wouldnt compare them. instead u might compare the marine to the ling. banes to the hellbat is a ok to compare because they do same damage just about and have very close range fighting with splash. id say the connection is sound enough to compare. so dont go saying u cant compare units and races, its a huge part of the game to draw these ideas and comparisons out. Comparing Banelings and Hellbats makes no more sense than comparing Banelings and Archons because they're "(generally anti-bio) short-ranged AoE damage dealers". | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
I just think that Hellbats do move SC2 more in a broodwar-esque direction, since you can die so quickly - whether by a hellbat drop, an oracle raging around for 5 secs (should be enough for 10 scvs..) or a bigger pack of speed mutas. or, wait, 2 banelings burrowed in the mineral line (why doesn't anyone do so?) before the base is planted down  . After all, stop crying, learn to deal with hellbats. Only thing that could be changed IMO: make them more fragile, remove like 20 hp or so. That change would require the attacker to have a better control, so that the attacker's skill should matter a bit more. | ||
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klup
France612 Posts
For the sake of this game they need to do something with hellbat drop. Like the idea of making medivac can't use afterburner when carrying mech units. But if you look in term of design perspective it makes too much specific rule for just 1 unit the hellbat! Hope they will use Lotv as an excuse to delete hellbat and replace it by something better | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
On June 10 2013 05:48 Big G wrote: Just tweak the damage so +1 weapons upgrade or blue flame is required to 2-shot workers. This sounds quite smart to me. Also the medivac boost if half the reason they are so good at killing workers. So either tweak that or remove the bio part, which is the more obvious, easier change. | ||
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snexwang
Australia224 Posts
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pmp10
3399 Posts
On June 10 2013 05:48 Big G wrote: Just tweak the damage so +1 weapons upgrade or blue flame is required to 2-shot workers. That would take a DPS nerf of 1/3. There is no way that unit would be worth using after that. | ||
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Exoteric
Australia2330 Posts
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On June 10 2013 21:46 Salteador Neo wrote: This sounds quite smart to me. Also the medivac boost if half the reason they are so good at killing workers. So either tweak that or remove the bio part, which is the more obvious, easier change. I'd agree with this change for sure. It's not knee-jerk, as 3 shots is still fine if you're dropping several hellbats and they dont react, but it's not instant 20 worker kills if you drop two of them and pickup in 2 seconds. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On June 10 2013 02:41 MorroW wrote: would i be totally crazy to suggest they buff the turret instead of nerfing hellbats? looks like my attempt to have terran buffed while leaving hellbats alone failed  hellbat drop is pretty much better than the other harassing techniques, does that mean its op? the hellbat drops seem abit ridiculous when you compare it to other things. oracle is just as devastating to an undefended base and comes even earlier in the game, however a single turret/queen/spore/pfnexus shuts it down for the most part storm drop can do just as much damage if they dont pull the workers, however is alot deeper in the tech tree and you invest alot, lose that warp prism and your fucked. baneling drop same thing, late into the game, not as much investment as the storm drop however its very slow and easier to react to i think these are the most similar harassing techniques to the hellbat drop, but all of them have have clear weaknesses why we dont really see it as such a problem. but in the end, something has to be stronger and things work in different ways. doesnt necessarily mean its too strong. hellbat drop in tvz and tvp is not straight up overpowered in tvp i sometimes win on the first hellbat drop alone (it goes in and kills like 10 workers, the medivac gets away and the hellbats left to die) in tvz it sometimes snowballs into me getting too big of an advantage that i end up too far ahead and can steamroll. but in most cases against equally good players hellbat drops do not end games like this, usually it gets me even footing with my opponent, its not really a go-to build as much as "another build" to use sometimes. there are risks involved rushing hellbat drops against protoss and zerg as well that should be considered when talking about this. how to deal with hellbat drops through good play and fast reactions rather than over-investing in defenses hellbat drops are defended more through reaction time and being prepared rather than having enough investment of defenses. 3 stalkers and a cannon with a quick probe pull gets you much farther than 3 stalkers 2 cannons and no probe pull. deal with the medivac, pull your workers and cleanup is the way to go rather than enough damage output to completely fuck this over before anything can drop, that amount of damage output investment is unrealistic against a boosted medivac into any mineral line at any point of the game. hellbats arent ending every tvt game, not even close and now to tvt. tvt i do it every game, my opponents do it every game. most games we deal no damage at all to each other because we are high enough level to defend them. only if both players go full on aggression at each other both are left undefended. many games of innovation in his tvt's he had a hellbat build where he had 1-2 marines at home to defend... a risky build to say the least. defending the hellbat drop -turret in your mineral line ensures the medivac dies if it hunts the evacuating scvs -widow mine in the mineral line close to guarantees killing the medivac now to actually cleaning up the hellbats, you need either hellbats, hellions, marines, or marines in a bunker. things like landing viking or a flying banshee wont kill them quick enough to make the loss of miniing time not be damage enough (even if 0 scvs dies if they have to stop mining for 10-20 seconds it can be more damage done than the 2 hellbat investment) metagame evolving hellbat drops used to be more effective way to play than trying to defend hellbat drops. but now people have learned so many ways to deal with them and ending up ahead after each failed drop that the defending player ends up ahead. its really all about having proper defenses at home while trying to hellbat drop your opponent to make sure he has proper defenses at home so you dont end up behind. i think this is not a big issue in tvt, the hellbat drop just dictates a lot just like gas first=> banshee or elevator tactics in early game. why does it have to be a bad thing that the threat is part of the game and you have to invest in proper defenses? the tvt's over course of few weeks now have evolved a lot, people have not tried to hellbat drop less but they have gone from "suicide hellbats into your opponent until he dies" to "ok this guy has a viking defenses and turret up, lets back off and play macro game" what nerf exactly you had in mind? how exactly do you plan on "nerfing hellbat drops?". medivac boost doesnt seem to strong with bio i think, or in general. hellbats deal 30 damage, workers have 40~ hp, you need an insane nerf to make them not 2 shot workers that its not fair to consider it. the stats they have play out in a pretty fair way outside of hellbat drops. removing the heal doesnt change the fact that they destroy a mineral line instantly if they dont react quickly. not allowing hellbats into medivacs would for sure kill hellbat drops, however this mechanic is very good when it comes to terran vs terran fights. also dealing with bio drops as a mech user since turret rings dont drop boosted medivacs, you use your own boosted medivacs and drop hellbats on bio drops to defend. plus i dont think hellbat drops is ruining the game at all and that it should be impossible to load hellbats into medivacs. thats pretty much a wrap in my opinion, even if i thought it needed a nerf i cant come up with a nerf that is a good change or justifiable conclusion i think the game is fine at this point, every matchup players are learning how to deal with them better and better. strong harassing tools is interesting and everyone likes it, thats why blizzard is pushing it | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 10 2013 21:40 klup wrote: When you look at some games of MVP vs Innovation, you see that there is some kind of issue. when the only units made before 12ish minutes are only hellbats medivac and vikings that is close to absurd. Viking are only there to counter hellbat drop and as a ground defense against hellbat drop they use... guess what : DEFENSIVE HELLBAT DROP! WTF! seriously this strategy is so overwhelming the other kind of harass/ defense that it replace every kind of early game both defensively and offensively. For the sake of this game they need to do something with hellbat drop. Like the idea of making medivac can't use afterburner when carrying mech units. But if you look in term of design perspective it makes too much specific rule for just 1 unit the hellbat! Hope they will use Lotv as an excuse to delete hellbat and replace it by something better As long as there is the option to hellbat drop yourself and there is no BO-disadvantage possible from hellbat dropping, the obvious solution is to always hellbat drop. That's why TvT is hellbat drop vs hellbat drop. It's the easy way out, not the best way to deal with hellbats, but the one that always works against each of your opponents builds. (unlike a defensive roach build that is complete bullshit in ZvT if the Terran does not hellbat drop or hellion allin, or massing stalkers at home as Protoss instead of teching/upgrading and containing a Terran with few offensive stalkers) | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On June 10 2013 21:58 Sated wrote: Removal of the unit would also be an ideal solution. Tanks don't need a solid buffer, they just need a buffer. Hellions serve this purpose just fine Yes that is shown by the popularity of mech vs toss in WoL. Even despite the number of anti mech boosts toss got, mech is still seen more in HotS. But sure go ahead, just remove the hellbat. And also the new toss/zerg units please. | ||
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