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On June 10 2013 17:54 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 15:31 Type|NarutO wrote:On June 10 2013 15:27 Decendos wrote:On June 10 2013 15:20 Type|NarutO wrote:
So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet.
Edit: Right when I posted it, SoulKey got raped by Cure with Hellbats even though he didn't play his best. In my face :[ the thing is: vs marine drops you can micro, pull worker and its a 500/100 investment which in case the opponent reacts fast loses 0 worker while with hellbats and good afterburner micro its hard to no kill some worker and force a lot of lost mining time. its pretty counterintuitive that you drop hellbats INTO static defense (you will lose medivac but kill worker + lost mining time if you move into static). they need to keep hellbat drops at a strong state but right now its just way too effective for how early it comes in the game. Dropping hellbats into static defence with proper reaction from Protoss (lets put TvP here) will make you lose the game in the end. Yes Protoss does lose mining time, but your medivac is crucial. Usually TvP builds are with an unreactored starport for the early drops, can be done with too, but losing medivacs constantly would be very bad. So in theory and very good reaction, Protoss should not lose a lot of probes. Yes afterburner can give them trouble, but you got the observer for spotting as well. You KNOW that its coming. If it deals damage ALWAYS even if Protoss knows and is prepared, thats an issue, but thats not the case. As soon as you have stalkers in place Terran would need to sacrifice and commit to either a bigger drop or stop the harassment and simply force you into defensive state. What do Protoss players do right now? No stargate? No phoenix? 2 Phoenix shut down drops immediately. Even 1 does or at least always costs the Terran 100/100. Yes stargate + phoenix is an investment, but so are 2 forges +1+1 at 6 minute mark. I simply disagree with people saying all builds are figured out and there is no chance to defend it in any cost-efficient or efficient way. These are the kinds of post in this thread that are worth reading as they come from pr0 players who clearly explain their thoughts. Thanks for posting, Naruto.
Not that I disrespect any of pro opinions. But, mostly they look from competitive view point, whereas we care about fun and entertainment aspect.
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i had the best tvt in weeks today... we both made a deal that we wouldn't build hellbats <3 ^_^
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I dont know how they should deal with hellbat drops becoming a dominant TvT strategy.. whether or not that is the issue of course. I personally think its not a good idea to nerf them in terms of stats (then they become useless) but thinking about it.. it could be a good reason to sort of make "sense" of the hellbat unit. By that I mean theres too many "rules" on the unit itself.
Some ideas:
-Make blueflame upgrade relevant to the hell bat, synergize the unit more with the hellion etc. Maybe it needs to be cut in damage (so workers are 3 shotted) but the blueflame upgrade gives back the damage it does now (to all types).
-Need servos upgrade, so hellbats are introduced later in the game.
-Slightly reduce damage (so it cant 2 shot at no ups) for 1 base armor.
OR Make medivac speed boost uses up energy (say x energy for y% speed boost for z amount of time) so you can't spam the heals on the hellbats or keep doom dropping with bio. It really becomes an "emergency" thruster.
Personally I think Medivacs are more of a problem if there was ever one.
However I have to admit that after watching years of BW, multiple messy hellbat drops on the fleeing SCV train sort of reminds me of reaver drops.
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Why not give the hellbats a delay in firing after they are dropped from the medivac? Just as the reaver was nerfed before.
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 10 2013 15:31 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 15:27 Decendos wrote:On June 10 2013 15:20 Type|NarutO wrote:
So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet.
Edit: Right when I posted it, SoulKey got raped by Cure with Hellbats even though he didn't play his best. In my face :[ the thing is: vs marine drops you can micro, pull worker and its a 500/100 investment which in case the opponent reacts fast loses 0 worker while with hellbats and good afterburner micro its hard to no kill some worker and force a lot of lost mining time. its pretty counterintuitive that you drop hellbats INTO static defense (you will lose medivac but kill worker + lost mining time if you move into static). they need to keep hellbat drops at a strong state but right now its just way too effective for how early it comes in the game. Dropping hellbats into static defence with proper reaction from Protoss (lets put TvP here) will make you lose the game in the end. Yes Protoss does lose mining time, but your medivac is crucial. Usually TvP builds are with an unreactored starport for the early drops, can be done with too, but losing medivacs constantly would be very bad. So in theory and very good reaction, Protoss should not lose a lot of probes. Yes afterburner can give them trouble, but you got the observer for spotting as well. You KNOW that its coming. If it deals damage ALWAYS even if Protoss knows and is prepared, thats an issue, but thats not the case. As soon as you have stalkers in place Terran would need to sacrifice and commit to either a bigger drop or stop the harassment and simply force you into defensive state. What do Protoss players do right now? No stargate? No phoenix? 2 Phoenix shut down drops immediately. Even 1 does or at least always costs the Terran 100/100. Yes stargate + phoenix is an investment, but so are 2 forges +1+1 at 6 minute mark. I simply disagree with people saying all builds are figured out and there is no chance to defend it in any cost-efficient or efficient way.
On stargate: here's a the issue. For one, it's a really damn big investment, and phoenixes are basically awful against literally everything else. I personally think it would be silly to force protoss into investing tons of gas to defend a mineral based "harassment" unit (and wether T even needs such a unit is a whole other discussion altogether). A stargate and 1-3 (whatever) phoenixes are more expensive for the protoss than investing into hellbat tech rather than bio tech is for the Terran, especially because as you said while the Terran can play super greedy behind it, the protoss is left with no useful tech and a weaker standing army than normal. The fact that it's bad against the standard wol style bio builds (which are very viable) also doesn't help.
Additionally, we are already forced into stargate tech almost every game in PvZ, and it's an incredibly strong tech path in PvP too. Forcing P to go for the same tech path every game in every match up doesnt sound like the best game design (from both a spectator's and player's point of view it makes the race more stale), and P already has design issues in the first place. I feel like even if it turns out that going FE>2phoenixes>standard play shuts down hellbat drops (which it most likely does), that build would be terribad vs anything else terran might do so it would be a bandaid solution at best.
Regarding the hellbat itself, i think it's evident that it has some issues at least design wise for the simple reason that it makes hellions much, much less useful. I'm sure ideally in blizzard's mind you would have to choose between hellbat and hellions for different things, but realistically, right now for basically everything (except i suppose early game tvz and tvt, which are matchups i dont understand well so i cant comment) you would rather have hellbats. I mean, when a unit kills workers more efficiently than blue flame hellions for the same cost and is also stronger in a straight up fight, you should take a look at it imo.
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As I was quite annoyed with the hellbat at the release of HotS, I'm quite fine with it now. It's just all about defending it well. For terrans that means a WM and a viking or turret. For other races it is even easier, with observer, cannon(s) and warp ins for P and overlords spines and queens.
From the T perspective it was always byfar easiest to drop vs a T. Then I met smart terrans which just crushed the drops and left me far behind.
Hellbat drops are only effective if you make no decision to actually defend against them. Some terrans just go the mentality of "I'm confident in my mass hellbat drops. If he does it too, then I will just deal more dmg than him" so it goes into a mass hellbat drop vs mass hellbat drop, where neither side is actually defending against the hellbats. This leads to moronic games admittedly, but that is because you have 2 sets of players making a really stupid decision. This is really the only games where a terran can't defend the drops(well he could qutie easily, but he doesn't), and that is because they are taking a calculated risk.
People that complain the most about hellbats are generally the ones that don't try to defend hellbat drops at all and infact would've been just as fucked by 4 hellion drop(or god forbid 4 blueflame hellions). As soon as I started playing with hellbats in mind, defending them became a lot easier. Don't get me wrong, every now and then a drop does get through, but most of the time I can at worst force them to drop outside the mineral line and the hellbats never get in range of the scvs.
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For me personally the issue with hellbat drops is not defending them, but that I am quite soon purely defending them, while my opponent is happily macro'ing up. But thats more a mindset issue from me, and means I should make more vikings  .
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Medivac should not be able to heal Hellbat
Hellbat should cost 100 min and 25 gaz
Medivac boost should cost 25 energy to be activated (not only a nerf but an interesting mecanic)
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On June 10 2013 18:37 Orzabal wrote:
Medivac should not be able to heal Hellbat
Hellbat should cost 100 min and 25 gaz
Medivac boost should cost 25 energy to be activated (not only a nerf but an interesting mecanic)
Removing the heal for the hellbat would basically make them OP in TvP. Making them cost gas would kill them in TvZ and possibly TvT(though mech is really strong atm in TvT, so got a feel it'd be fine there). Furthermore should hellions cost gas? What then about hellion into transform?
Edit: Making them cost gas would also kill them in TvP(the change on it's own), but the huge buff you'd give it by removing the bio tag would make up for it, so just really leaving hellbats in the shitter for TvZ mech(and like Scissor said below me, not change a thing for bio + hellbat combo).
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Would increasing Hellbat cost really make a difference? Couldn't you bypass it by making a Hellion and transform it?
Edit: Ninja'd
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 10 2013 18:41 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 18:37 Orzabal wrote:
Medivac should not be able to heal Hellbat
Hellbat should cost 100 min and 25 gaz
Medivac boost should cost 25 energy to be activated (not only a nerf but an interesting mecanic) Removing the heal for the hellbat would basically make them OP in TvP. Making them cost gas would kill them in TvZ and possibly TvT(though mech is really strong atm in TvT, so got a feel it'd be fine there). Furthermore should hellions cost gas? What then about hellion into transform?
Yeah because of the transform thing you can either:
1) Keep their cost as it is now, nerf the stats as others have suggested (i personally think they should not kill workers more efficiently than hellions)
2) Keep their stats as they are now, nerf the cost, remove the transform (none uses it anyway, you always want hellbats and an armory is very easy to tech to).
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On June 10 2013 18:37 Orzabal wrote:
Medivac should not be able to heal Hellbat
Hellbat should cost 100 min and 25 gaz
Medivac boost should cost 25 energy to be activated (not only a nerf but an interesting mecanic)
1. So boosting them vs toss, not complaining.
2. So directly nerfing mech vs toss, yet again. Was that really needed? In bio compositions vs toss you generally will have enough gas anyway
3. I thought it was raining, but then I realised it was just protoss tears. Really good luck finding any toss who thinks this is a good idea.
On June 10 2013 18:44 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 18:41 Zarahtra wrote:On June 10 2013 18:37 Orzabal wrote:
Medivac should not be able to heal Hellbat
Hellbat should cost 100 min and 25 gaz
Medivac boost should cost 25 energy to be activated (not only a nerf but an interesting mecanic) Removing the heal for the hellbat would basically make them OP in TvP. Making them cost gas would kill them in TvZ and possibly TvT(though mech is really strong atm in TvT, so got a feel it'd be fine there). Furthermore should hellions cost gas? What then about hellion into transform? Yeah because of the transform thing you can either: 1) Keep their cost as it is now, nerf the stats as others have suggested (i personally think they should not kill workers more efficiently than hellions) 2) Keep their stats as they are now, nerf the cost, remove the transform (none uses it anyway, you always want hellbats and an armory is very easy to tech to).
Don't forget that forgg is a nub, and no one uses hellions.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 10 2013 18:27 Zarahtra wrote:
As I was quite annoyed with the hellbat at the release of HotS, I'm quite fine with it now. It's just all about defending it well. For terrans that means a WM and a viking or turret. For other races it is even easier, with observer, cannon(s) and warp ins for P and overlords spines and queens.
From the T perspective it was always byfar easiest to drop vs a T. Then I met smart terrans which just crushed the drops and left me far behind.
Hellbat drops are only effective if you make no decision to actually defend against them. Some terrans just go the mentality of "I'm confident in my mass hellbat drops. If he does it too, then I will just deal more dmg than him" so it goes into a mass hellbat drop vs mass hellbat drop, where neither side is actually defending against the hellbats. This leads to moronic games admittedly, but that is because you have 2 sets of players making a really stupid decision. This is really the only games where a terran can't defend the drops(well he could qutie easily, but he doesn't), and that is because they are taking a calculated risk.
People that complain the most about hellbats are generally the ones that don't try to defend hellbat drops at all and infact would've been just as fucked by 4 hellion drop(or god forbid 4 blueflame hellions). As soon as I started playing with hellbats in mind, defending them became a lot easier. Don't get me wrong, every now and then a drop does get through, but most of the time I can at worst force them to drop outside the mineral line and the hellbats never get in range of the scvs.
This is a really good post that I whole-heartedly agree with.
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I don't think Helbats are the problem here, it is the speedivac. Helbats have really short range and very slow movement speed. However, when paired with the speedivac, they suddenly gain easy access to the mineral and hence the currently helbats feasts in TvT. I think the correct way to solve the problem is to nerf the speed boost a little bit. They can either make it require an upgrade, or make the cooldown a little longer, or even use the gradual speed boost suggested by our fellow poster. This will help make drop plays a little less effective in all match up. In TvT this iwll mean helbats drop will not be as domainant , but still effective. In TvZ, this will give some breathing room for zerg, so the midgame period of 4M will not be as strong and hopefully the terran play can evolve past the 4M stage. In TvP, protoss will not be forced to fast tech on two base, giving more options on the match up. If this change proves to make terran too weak, blizzard can consider buff the terran late game.
tldr; nerf speed boost a little, buff other terran units if needed.
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On June 10 2013 17:44 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 15:20 Type|NarutO wrote:
So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet.
Edit: Right when I posted it, SoulKey got raped by Cure with Hellbats even though he didn't play his best. In my face :[ The issue is about too much usage of hellbat in TvT. Not about protoss or zerg tears.
the problem isn't balance, but options and risk/reward. there arent many ways a terran can punish another terran for going hellbat drops, and hellbat drops are by and large, the best build, making it a go to build without much reason to not use it
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On June 10 2013 17:54 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 15:31 Type|NarutO wrote:On June 10 2013 15:27 Decendos wrote:On June 10 2013 15:20 Type|NarutO wrote:
So many people that either are not very good at the game or simply don't try to understand what the problems are. I really cannot stand balance whines on lower-levels (lower levels = below proleague and competetive tournament play and I don't talk about clan setup-amateur tournaments).
If people tell me they are losing to me on ladder because of imbalance, I can point out that you could put every Protoss or Zerg from the proleague against me and he would rip my heart out, eat it and shit it into my body again. Its just plain stupid. They are losing because they are reacting terrible and do horrible mistakes.
Now for the matter itself. I think hellbats can be countered by Zerg pretty well. The question is, does the counter of hellbats (roach/banes) set you back in that game by such a margin, that it is imbalanced? In bigger fights I would say Zerg can deal with them pretty efficiently.
Now for TvP where I think a 'real' issue takes place. Protoss got better in HotS, a lot. Especially against Terran. They got more allins, have more chance to scout and pressure with the MSC and their defence due to photon overcharge is a lot better. If you are not excellent with bio and drops, you will not touch a Protoss on some maps right now. Hellbat drops take place earlier than bio drops as you would need stim + combatshields and you also (as pointed out by op) only need to drop 2 units to deal damage.
Protoss has to respond and even a photon overcharge will not shoot down hellbats quickly (or the medivac) so ideally you either drop, shoot and fly away when photon overcharge came as respond and as long as you don't lose your drop, its a win to you. Most Protoss would react with 1-2 cannons. That is not a proper response. Well it is - but it will put you behind. Terran can get a 3rd cc with hellbat drop expansions easily and add barracks and ebay or double ebay even. Good Protoss can and will react with an earlier 3rd base to hellbat pressure. When you drop hellbats you constantly spend 300/100 (1 medivac, 2 hellbats) and you get your bio running a bit slower. That means you cannot pressure as fast. Lots of stalkers are a good option (twilight tech, hero style) with a faster 3rd to deny hellbats and get your economy running.
While I would say, the hellbat might be a tad too strong, I don't see Terrans winning on it in TvP and TvZ on the highest level. There are games that were decided by it, but if you put 8 marines stimmed into a Zerg or Protoss economy, they will shred your shit just as fast and can decide a game. I think Blizzard should give it a bit more time (remember, blueflame hellions got nerfed, but people began to figure them out, walling, sim city etc) and it will be just like that with hellbats. Spores / Turret in Economy or cannon is a good timer for it, so he cannot stay there... Give it time :x
PS: Yes I'm Terran, I would not cry if its nerfed, I simply don't think the time is here yet.
Edit: Right when I posted it, SoulKey got raped by Cure with Hellbats even though he didn't play his best. In my face :[ the thing is: vs marine drops you can micro, pull worker and its a 500/100 investment which in case the opponent reacts fast loses 0 worker while with hellbats and good afterburner micro its hard to no kill some worker and force a lot of lost mining time. its pretty counterintuitive that you drop hellbats INTO static defense (you will lose medivac but kill worker + lost mining time if you move into static). they need to keep hellbat drops at a strong state but right now its just way too effective for how early it comes in the game. Dropping hellbats into static defence with proper reaction from Protoss (lets put TvP here) will make you lose the game in the end. Yes Protoss does lose mining time, but your medivac is crucial. Usually TvP builds are with an unreactored starport for the early drops, can be done with too, but losing medivacs constantly would be very bad. So in theory and very good reaction, Protoss should not lose a lot of probes. Yes afterburner can give them trouble, but you got the observer for spotting as well. You KNOW that its coming. If it deals damage ALWAYS even if Protoss knows and is prepared, thats an issue, but thats not the case. As soon as you have stalkers in place Terran would need to sacrifice and commit to either a bigger drop or stop the harassment and simply force you into defensive state. What do Protoss players do right now? No stargate? No phoenix? 2 Phoenix shut down drops immediately. Even 1 does or at least always costs the Terran 100/100. Yes stargate + phoenix is an investment, but so are 2 forges +1+1 at 6 minute mark. I simply disagree with people saying all builds are figured out and there is no chance to defend it in any cost-efficient or efficient way. These are the kinds of post in this thread that are worth reading as they come from pr0 players who clearly explain their thoughts. Thanks for posting, Naruto.
Absolutely agree. It would be great if more high level players (with patience and reasoning skills!) would contribute more to threads like this. I understand why they do not but It would certainly be great..
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Pro players seem to be doing fine against hellbats. It always takes some time to adjust, because people (pros) are prone to risks because they want to get away with as cheap a defense as possible. Now we see one cannon in each mineral line and Terrans will start using vikings, turrets and small marine squads to zone medvacs out.
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On June 10 2013 11:05 tomatriedes wrote:
It's funny how Blizzard nerfed blue flame hellions because they were too good at killing workers and then made another unit that does exactly the same thing.
The thing is, this one is that same unit that killed workers fast but now is tanky and have twice dps, plus healling+boost support. Classic blizz.
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I think hellbats are rather boring to watch and I hate seeing my favourite tvt matchup reduced to mass hellbat wars. Sure, it's possible that the meta game could change and people will stop them easily, but it doesn't change the fact that the hellbat is a boring unit. I love terran having exciting, micro intensive units =(
Would be happy if they were nerfed in some way, I guess the most simple way is to remove its bio tag so it can't be healed by medivacs.
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Yep, please remove the bio tag, and everything will already be much better I believe.
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EPT
