EPTHellbats Review - Page 25
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neggro
United States591 Posts
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NapkinBox
United States314 Posts
When a base has proper defense, a hellbat drop will do little to no damage. Most of the time when you see Hellbats take out a large amount of workers it's because there was nothing protecting the base from those drops; it could have been a marine or hellion drop and it would still do alot of damage. | ||
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kaluro
Netherlands760 Posts
On June 10 2013 01:54 Hypemeup wrote: Changing the hellbat without fucking it up for other MUs(TvZ and TvP) where they are fine is a very tricky thing indeed. Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game. If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly. and a double/triple hellbat drop from the terran, versus zerg, cuts off _all_ mining, will get a few drone kills and zerg is stuck with speedlings/queens to deal with it. Spines don't nearly work well enough to be effective. On June 10 2013 20:07 NapkinBox wrote: I don't think removing the bio tag from Hellbats would make any difference outside of engagements. When a base has proper defense, a hellbat drop will do little to no damage. Most of the time when you see Hellbats take out a large amount of workers it's because there was nothing protecting the base from those drops; it could have been a marine or hellion drop and it would still do alot of damage. Hellion and marine drops can be shut down by speedlings, and maybe a spore and a spine, and will only cause minimal annoyance/mining time lost. Hellbat drops on the other hand, can kill infinite amount of speedlings and queens just slowly scratch them. a properly micro'd medivac can't be taken out by a queen, either. The costs of dealing with it (esp. early game), does not justify the cheapness of such harassive options. The new crackivacs also make it so they can drop inside the mineral line and not lose their vac at all, because of the superlow spore damage (15 per hit). Even the absolute professionals continiously die on the ladder because of helbat drops, or do you never watch professional Zerg streams? (I'm only a top 25 master EU myself) On June 10 2013 18:27 Zarahtra wrote: As I was quite annoyed with the hellbat at the release of HotS, I'm quite fine with it now. It's just all about defending it well. For terrans that means a WM and a viking or turret. For other races it is even easier, with observer, cannon(s) and warp ins for P and overlords spines and queens. Spines and queens? am I going to build 3-4 spines at my mineral lines to kill them in a decently quick fashion? And what if they triple/double drop? One queen per base is not going to cut it, and lings just evaporate. If I just use one queen, the mining time lost will be so significant that I'd better tap out immediately. Also they can just get out of range of the spine and continue to be a nuisance, spines don't have super range and queens aren't significant enough. Or imagine building early game static defense, followed by no drops at all :O! Imagine how far you'd be behind then. They dont have to drop, when going hellbats sadly. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
Even if you know its coming its so effective it need a huge defense. Innovation himself even expends a full bunker on each mineral line just to counter it. Needing a bunker in your mineral line is a little OTT. | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
On June 10 2013 20:25 Nekovivie wrote: After watching innovation just endlessly rallying Hellbat-vacs to the enemies base, regardless of faction or map, it does get a little tiring. Not saying hes a bad player, but it's just really predictable. Even if you know its coming its so effective it need a huge defense. Innovation himself even expends a full bunker on each mineral line just to counter it. Needing a bunker in your mineral line is a little OTT. And as you can see EVEN the bunker cant prevent 6 hellbats to masacre your mineral line in 2 sec... | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
No changes required for the following reasons:- Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:- Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :- 1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend This is a learn to play issue simple as that. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On June 10 2013 20:30 Dvriel wrote: And as you can see EVEN the bunker cant prevent 6 hellbats to masacre your mineral line in 2 sec... I'd hope that 18 supply(or 900/300) would win/deal dmg against 4(or 300/0). There are so many people that just seem to want to go back to the old WoL-yawnfest where no aggression is possible before 3 bases. | ||
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it? No changes required for the following reasons:- Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:- Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :- 1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend This is a learn to play issue simple as that. Yeah, learn to play MVP! The issue, as mentioned 100 time before is that hellbats produce faster and are cheaper than any of the above option, rendering other builds inferior, hence making the MU stale. I do not care thoug as of now, since in masters you can get away with the stupidest shit, like the things you mentioned above. But for watching pros, variaty needs to be viable. | ||
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Zanzabarr
Canada217 Posts
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it? No changes required for the following reasons:- Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:- Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :- 1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend This is a learn to play issue simple as that. I'm sure Mvp losing all his workers in multiple games qualifies him as an 'unskilled terran' Hellbats are expendable, your mineral line isn't. They kill too quickly, and as aforementioned, coupled with medivac boost, often means they get out with no damage.. | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it? No changes required for the following reasons:- Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:- Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :- 1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend This is a learn to play issue simple as that. L2p is not the issue. If you see the two best Terrans in the world going only this stuff and losing to it, its because they need to learn??? A turret cant stop 6 or 10 hellbats to kill all your mineral line.Mvp will drop on your MMM or tanks and will still be able to kill them without losign much.Bunkers do not prevent this as well.Banshees?? GL killing healed hellbats in lees tan 2 sec,before all your SCVs die.PF? Come on...build it in your main or natural and HF winning the game hehe | ||
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tsango
Australia214 Posts
They're definitely too strong in the current meta game, if they werent you'd see more variety in TvT openings. Theres no need to ask pro terrans what they're opinion is - we've seen them play, if they didnt think it was that good you'd see a lot more variety in their play. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On June 10 2013 20:15 kaluro wrote: Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game. If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly. and a double/triple hellbat drop from the terran, versus zerg, cuts off _all_ mining, will get a few drone kills and zerg is stuck with speedlings/queens to deal with it. Spines don't nearly work well enough to be effective. Hellion and marine drops can be shut down by speedlings, and maybe a spore and a spine, and will only cause minimal annoyance/mining time lost. Hellbat drops on the other hand, can kill infinite amount of speedlings and queens just slowly scratch them. a properly micro'd medivac can't be taken out by a queen, either. The costs of dealing with it (esp. early game), does not justify the cheapness of such harassive options. The new crackivacs also make it so they can drop inside the mineral line and not lose their vac at all, because of the superlow spore damage (15 per hit). Even the absolute professionals continiously die on the ladder because of helbat drops, or do you never watch professional Zerg streams? (I'm only a top 25 master EU myself) Spines and queens? am I going to build 3-4 spines at my mineral lines to kill them in a decently quick fashion? And what if they triple/double drop? One queen per base is not going to cut it, and lings just evaporate. If I just use one queen, the mining time lost will be so significant that I'd better tap out immediately. Also they can just get out of range of the spine and continue to be a nuisance, spines don't have super range and queens aren't significant enough. Or imagine building early game static defense, followed by no drops at all :O! Imagine how far you'd be behind then. They dont have to drop, when going hellbats sadly. So your post makes it sound that hellbats are too hard to stop in ZvT. Please explain to me: - why we see zergs winning tournaments. Every Z should lose to terrans using the hellbat drop. - why we see no terran ladder domination | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
On June 10 2013 20:45 Dvriel wrote: L2p is not the issue. If you see the two best Terrans in the world going only this stuff and losing to it, its because they need to learn??? A turret cant stop 6 or 10 hellbats to kill all your mineral line.Mvp will drop on your MMM or tanks and will still be able to kill them without losign much.Bunkers do not prevent this as well.Banshees?? GL killing healed hellbats in lees tan 2 sec,before all your SCVs die.PF? Come on...build it in your main or natural and HF winning the game hehe That was one set of game. The Pros will adapt and counter. Give it 2 - 6 months. This post by the OP is a balance whine. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 10 2013 20:15 kaluro wrote: Tell me more on how it's balanced in TvZ, where zergs have no early ranged units to effectively deal with hellbats, whereas protoss has early stalkers/sentries and terran has marines without gimping themselves early game. If zerg goes early roaches, they are effectively gimping themselves greatly. Aren't we done with this mythical 2011 argument that "Roaches kill Zerg's economy" or something? How about you watch pro ZvT and see Zergs are absolutely fine economy-wise even when they concede a few defensive Roaches? Bogus vs Soulkey, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S finals: 77 drones vs 61 SCVs at 11'. Bogus vs Soulkey, Daybreak, Code S finals: 70 drones vs 55 SCVs at 11'10. Give us a break with your "early Roaches are so painful". On June 10 2013 20:25 Sated wrote: They should have the same stats as Hellions. The only difference between the two should be movement speed and the method of AoE used. Yeah, Terran would totally use a 90 hp 2 range 2.25 movespeed unit so that 90% of them evaporate before even connecting. Some of the nerf suggestions here are truly hilarious, might as well ask the removal of the unit. Please remember that mech needs a solid buffer in front of Tanks. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On June 10 2013 15:12 Greenei wrote: Yeah I like it, because it doesn't mess with other MUs in which Hellbats are NOT broken. What the? Biased much? | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
On June 10 2013 21:00 TheDwf wrote: Aren't we done with this mythical 2011 argument that "Roaches kill Zerg's economy" or something? How about you watch pro ZvT and see Zergs are absolutely fine economy-wise even when they concede a few defensive Roaches? Bogus vs Soulkey, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S finals: 77 drones vs 61 SCVs at 11'. Bogus vs Soulkey, Daybreak, Code S finals: 70 drones vs 55 SCVs at 11'10. Give us a break with your "early Roaches are so painful". Yeah, Terran would totally use a 90 hp 2 range 2.25 movespeed unit so that 90% of them evaporate before even connecting. Some of the nerf suggestions here are truly hilarious, might as well ask the removal of the unit. Please remember that mech needs a solid buffer in front of Tanks. So,what about more HP but less damage? 150 HP and less damage than BFH? This still will make TvP mech possible(I am one of the meching in TvP and without the hellbat buffer I am dead),because we can still use widow mines with the upgrade to harass and believe me,they are even better than hellbats with the 1sec burrow.Will be the next upgrade to disappear... | ||
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binski
United States225 Posts
On June 10 2013 20:36 Topdoller wrote: In TvT Hellbats are fine. The match up is balanced so why change it? No changes required for the following reasons:- Terran has the best units in the game to stop Hellbat drops:- Turrets - Build more of them Marines - Range 5 Unit v range 2 unit = win learn to micro please Tanks - Try Building them? Widow Mines - Pretty Good Unit with very high front loaded damage Bunkers - Put your marines in these things Marauders - Not the best but they do the job. Range 6 Banshees - Hellbats cant shoot up Planetary Fortress - More than capable of killing Hellbats The problem is not Hellbats - Its unskilled Terran Players who are used to :- 1 Not scouting 2 Getting free wins against other races using the same units who have far less options to stop these drops 3 Used to not defending their bases. Learn to pull SCV's and learn to micro units to defend This is a learn to play issue simple as that. simple as that, case closed guys This man knows more from watching pro streams an hour a day than most korean terrans who train over 10+ hours per day | ||
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SCguineapig
Netherlands289 Posts
On June 10 2013 01:44 NadaSound wrote: It think the hellbat is fine, but the healing by the medivac is the true problem. They are not so bad when there is no medivac around. this can work but you have to remember that even then the drops in the mineral line are still really annoying. i would like to see this though because it is bullshit that a unit out of the factory can be biological. then i want to see my collosus becoming biological too so it can be healed in teamgames. | ||
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