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On June 05 2013 11:44 takingbackoj wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 11:41 GolemMadness wrote:On June 05 2013 11:40 takingbackoj wrote:On June 05 2013 11:37 GolemMadness wrote:On June 05 2013 11:32 takingbackoj wrote:On June 05 2013 11:29 GolemMadness wrote:On June 05 2013 11:03 takingbackoj wrote:On June 05 2013 10:28 Emzeeshady wrote:On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote:
Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better. What kind of terrible flawed logic is this? Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange. I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump. Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic. Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic. Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better. No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous. No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better. So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense? Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Yes, you are. There are a number of factors, unrelated to raw skill, which affect the result of any given match between 2 individuals or teams. Ranging from sickness, through weather, to whatever mood the player is on during the match, there are tons of factors, which means that a single match isn't a "pure" sample of the players' skill. From that, we can logically conclude that a large sample of matches is required to determine if one player is significantly better than the other, since we don't have that for Bogus and Soulkey, we use their perceived skill throughout their history with the game to determine who is better. In this case, the evidence points to Bogus being the better player, he's played more and better matches against generally better competition and won more, it's safe to say he's the better player.
Also, small evidence points to something else regarding Bogus, that he's a wimp and silver surfer. He lost to Flash in an important match at MLG, and now loses to Soulkey in a match in which he was considered heavily favored, after having a 3-0 lead. But that's a different issue.
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United States33502 Posts
On June 05 2013 11:46 Holgerius wrote:
Power Rank-discussions... oh how I used to love this. ^____________^
Don't care enough about SC2 to get involved though, but it's still fun to read. :D
It's okay, just tell me how Chelsea is going to do next season now that Mourinho is back?
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On June 05 2013 11:51 Gamegene wrote:
hey when are we going to have a sospa power rank ~_~ indeed! and i'm sure it would be more accurate too
in bw things tend to be more accurate to this day still
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On June 05 2013 11:54 Shellshock1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 11:52 takingbackoj wrote:On June 05 2013 11:50 GolemMadness wrote:On June 05 2013 11:44 takingbackoj wrote:On June 05 2013 11:41 GolemMadness wrote:On June 05 2013 11:40 takingbackoj wrote:On June 05 2013 11:37 GolemMadness wrote:On June 05 2013 11:32 takingbackoj wrote:On June 05 2013 11:29 GolemMadness wrote:On June 05 2013 11:03 takingbackoj wrote:
[quote]
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic. Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic. Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better. No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous. No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better. So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense? Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here? Ok, take this situation. x player is 100-0 in Proleague. y player is 0-100 in Proleague against the same players. They play a series, and y wins 4-3. Is y the better player now? Valid argument and I see your point. I guess I read the rankings under the assumption that the individual league took precedence over the team league. But I don't think Soulkey's Proleague performance is so much worse than Innovations to trump his individual win against him for the WCS KR title. Looking at round 5 which was basically the month of may Soulkey: 5-4 Innovation: 11-3 Depends on who you subjectively weight each league
Good point. Without knowing that I can't really say whether the ranking makes sense or not.
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I wonder if a foreigner will ever make the top 10.
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United States97276 Posts
On June 05 2013 11:56 rift wrote:
I wonder if a foreigner will ever make the top 10.
not without playing in proleague, wcs korea, or winning the wcs season championship most likely. Or making it to like the ro4/finals beating a couple of really good koreans
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thanks . i posted about rain vs soulkey everywhere even wanted to make a guide but nobody offered to help .
Rain and Jangbi show the way protoss should be played . Rain ftw . perfect macro monster with no mistakes . same for jangbi .
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I once again ask if it would be possible for the writers to come and just simply say how heavily each tournament is weighed from now on. If proleague is as high as i think, well there is only 1way these threads can go.
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On June 05 2013 11:33 Waxangel wrote:
bwahahaha Europe hasn't even woken up yet to lobby for Stephano in top 10
im from europe. And no he doesnt deserve it. Not a bit. But no foreigners does 
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Yeah I agree with innovation. He looked strong in the games he won in the finals, and overall in proleague his record is better. I think it was just BO 7 mind games that got him.
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On June 05 2013 11:44 takingbackoj wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 11:41 GolemMadness wrote:On June 05 2013 11:40 takingbackoj wrote:On June 05 2013 11:37 GolemMadness wrote:On June 05 2013 11:32 takingbackoj wrote:On June 05 2013 11:29 GolemMadness wrote:On June 05 2013 11:03 takingbackoj wrote:On June 05 2013 10:28 Emzeeshady wrote:On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote:
Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better. What kind of terrible flawed logic is this? Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange. I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump. Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic. Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic. Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better. No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous. No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better. So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense? Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
So there is never a time when you see one player lose to another yet still consider him a better overall player?
There are all kinds of ways to determine which player is superior, head to head scores are just part of the equation even if it was in the finals. While I agree that composure is an important factor in a player, if one player seems to play better in a straight up game when both players are composed I would give them the edge, since I would consider a players peak performance most important for something called Power Rank (my opinion). However I would still be wary that players who have composure/consistency problems are often in danger of falling off if they can't get their shit together.
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United States8476 Posts
On June 05 2013 09:21 opterown wrote:
where's polt
Fionn didn't write this.
On June 05 2013 09:46 Quakecomm wrote:
um wasn't it INnoVation 3:4 Soulkey?
They played two additional matches in Proleague.
On June 05 2013 11:04 Poo wrote:
feels like Protoss bias personally. I don't think MVP and Parting are comparable currently.
I have no idea if you're talking about bias in favor of Protoss or against.
On June 05 2013 11:19 Assirra wrote:
The more that i think about it, the more i want TL if they indeed want to continue this to make a statement how high they rate each league. It's quite a obvious that proleague is rated above anything else but at least say it out loud in the OP.
Yes, Proleague is probably at a higher level than GSTL. But the bigger reason we reference Proleague more than GSTL is that there are way more results to refer to, which is able to tell a better story.
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On June 05 2013 11:56 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 11:51 Gamegene wrote:
hey when are we going to have a sospa power rank ~_~ indeed! and i'm sure it would be more accurate too in bw things tend to be more accurate to this day still
Sospa Powerrank! perhaps i'll write it myself.... i bet 2pac wont let me (;
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Innovation's road to the GSL finals was harder, his Proleague stats are better, he's better.
Soulkey was just better that one night and edged out a win in a best of seven that made neither player look like a champion.
Also consider that SK's semi-final match was another seven game series full of bad play...
Honestly it all comes down to this weekend, though. If Soulkey wins again I'll give more credit.
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On June 05 2013 11:56 takingbackoj wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 11:54 Shellshock1122 wrote:On June 05 2013 11:52 takingbackoj wrote:On June 05 2013 11:50 GolemMadness wrote:On June 05 2013 11:44 takingbackoj wrote:On June 05 2013 11:41 GolemMadness wrote:On June 05 2013 11:40 takingbackoj wrote:On June 05 2013 11:37 GolemMadness wrote:On June 05 2013 11:32 takingbackoj wrote:On June 05 2013 11:29 GolemMadness wrote:
[quote]
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic. Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better. No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous. No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better. So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense? Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here? Ok, take this situation. x player is 100-0 in Proleague. y player is 0-100 in Proleague against the same players. They play a series, and y wins 4-3. Is y the better player now? Valid argument and I see your point. I guess I read the rankings under the assumption that the individual league took precedence over the team league. But I don't think Soulkey's Proleague performance is so much worse than Innovations to trump his individual win against him for the WCS KR title. Looking at round 5 which was basically the month of may Soulkey: 5-4 Innovation: 11-3 Depends on who you subjectively weight each league Good point. Without knowing that I can't really say whether the ranking makes sense or not.
You can look just look at Code S too.
Soulkey: 19-12 against Maru, Flying, Yoda, Parting, sOs, Innovation
Innovation: 19-7 against Rain, Hyun, Flash, Life, RorO, Symbol, Soulkey
If you only know this and do not know who won the tournament tell me who looks better on paper.
Winning GSL is definitely a huge accomplishment. Soulkey may be more skilled than Innovation but he doesn't show it nearly as much as Innovation showed in his matches.
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Holy shit,i just realized how bad most of the esf players are compared to the top Kespa players.
And one year ago we thought the difference between esf and foreigners was already huge.
Can't wait to see Dimaga vs Innovation! ^_^
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I would ask though why is immvp not higher considering he is arguably the most accomplished player in SC 2 and even recently made EU wcs.
I do think proleague has the highest level games now, and the top kespa players are the best at SC 2 now.
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On June 05 2013 11:50 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 11:41 Myrddraal wrote:On June 05 2013 11:18 Dodgin wrote:On June 05 2013 10:59 Myrddraal wrote:On June 05 2013 10:26 Dodgin wrote:
Objectively, Hero and Mvp both don't deserve to be on the list, Losira deserves to be on the list.
I really don't understand how he was overlooked so easily, and there's not even an explanation for his absence, just " the only player to qualify from WCS KR not on the list ". Why isn't he on the list? It deserves an explanation. edit: it seems the OP was edited
Hero has been doing well in Proleague but his WCS AM championship was rather unimpressive, he lost 2 maps to Revival who was on a 10 game losing streak in Proleague until very recently. I mean, if someone like Revival can make the finals in WCS AM It's not a tournament worth talking about when we figure out who the 10 best players in the world are.
Mvp has played in basically nothing other than WCS EU where he did win in dominating fashion(other than losing to Lucifron) after the offline phase started, but It's still WCS EU, It's not comparable to WCS KR. He played a grand total of 0 Koreans, although the non Koreans were good players they're still non Koreans. That isn't Objectively at all, that is just your opinion buddy, I don't know how you can pretend otherwise. Looking at the players Losira beat recently (TRUE (x2), Soo, Gumiho, Bomber) compared to HerO (herO, Jangbi, Roro, Flash, Alicia, Ryung, Revival, decent foreigners) how can you say that Losira's results are objectively better during this period? I weigh GSL results more than Proleague, Other than Flash and Roro the caliber of players they played is about the same. I say objectively because I am a big fan of both Hero and Mvp so I'm looking outside of my own bias. WCS AM and EU results are worth almost nothing in relation to a Power Rank of the top 10 players in the world, if Hero were to deserve a spot on the ranking it would have to be almost entirely from his Proleague results, which are good but not as good as some other players who are not on the list. Zest from KT comes to mind immediately, TY from Team 8 as well. I think too much weight is put on WCS AM & EU, Mvp shouldn't be #11, part of that is probably because It's Mvp but I don't think you should place players on faith alone. This would have been a lot easier to do had the list come out after the season finals, we'll see who is right soon enough. Hm okay my bad, I thought you were only comparing HerO, MVP and Losira. Even still, I would argue that first in AM and a decent Proleague record to back it up is better than eighth in KR and at least comparable to a superior Proleague record. I honestly think you are weighting GSL ranks too highly and EU/AM too low, don't get me wrong I do agree with your ordering of preference, but I disagree with the margin of difference, hence why your opinion is still only Subjective, since its based on how you choose to weight the different leagues. I'll concede that point, you're right. My tournament weights are subjective and everyone's will be different. Maybe I'm not giving enough respect to WCS AM & EU, but Revival making the finals in WCS AM with his 5-14 record and recent 10 game losing streak in Proleague makes it hard for me to take the tournament seriously. Mvp did dominate the ro8 onward in WCS EU, but It's hard to say how much that really means because while TLO, Dimaga and Stephano are amazing players, how good are they compared to the players the Korean representatives have been playing against? The answer isn't clear because foreigners have almost no chance to play against Kespa players since MLG 3 days after HotS launch. Maybe the gap is closer than I think? Like I said we'll find out soon.
Cheers, you do make fair points though. I am probably just putting more weight in my faith in HerO and Mvp, though there is a good chance that I will be disappointed. The main thing I took out of EU with respect to Mvp is that he is still shaky in group stages, though as usual he fared a lot better in the BoX series, so I'm hoping that if he can make it through the group stages that his great preparation skills should give him a decent shot. As for HerO I honestly just love his play style and I feel that if he doesn't choke then he has a fighting chance in any tournament.
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On June 05 2013 12:07 snakeeyez wrote:
I would ask though why is immvp not higher considering he is arguably the most accomplished player in SC 2 and even recently made EU wcs.
Power Rank isn't about who the best of all time is. If you want to see that go to sc2earnings.com, or to this liquipedia page:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments_Medalists
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EPT
