The Power Rank originated years ago when TeamLiquid was solely a Brood War site, and it has been one of the mostrequestedfeatures since we began covering StarCraft II. For a variety of reasons, we just didn't think the time was right to introduce the Power Rank to StarCraft II until now. But the cabal has convened, the decision has been made, and we're happy to present you with this much anticipated feature. But first, some criteria:
Results: Obviously, this will be the basis of any power rank. And since this is a monthly power rank, we'll be focusing on results from the last month, that is the month of May. Previous HotS results will also be taken into account as well, but with less weight.
Difficulty of opponents: Sorry Kane, winning GSL gets you more credit than winning Shoutcraft 'Murica.
Quality of play: How impressed were we with this player's performance, especially over the last month?
Close But No Cigar
8th_TY: Another proleague monster, Ty is the face of hellbat play in proleague.
Pre-hellbat record: 8-13.
Post-hellbat record in round 5: 14-5
KT_Zest: A proleague hero without any other notable results. 5-2 in round 4, 9-4 in round 5. Unfortunately, it's mostly off the back of his PvP in the very Protoss dominated PvProleague. In other match-ups, he's not nearly as impressive.
LG-IM_KangHo: The only player who qualified to the WCS season finals from Korea who isn't in our ranking. Too bad he had a relatively easy path to the quarterfinals of GSL, a poor performance against sOs in those quarterfinals, and a poor GSTL record.
LG-IM_Mvp: If our number system were base 11, Mvp would almost certainly made into the list. Though he's the WCS EU champion, he was just barely nudged out by HerO. In revenge for this snub, MVP will probably just go on to win the WCS season finals anyways.
Let's be honest. The top nine players of this month's ranking were not particularly hard to pick. Had we picked any avid follower of SC2 to compose a power rank, he would probably have gone with the same nine players and placed them in a fairly similar order as we did. But while the first nine players were a breeze this month, there was no clear candidates for this last spot until very recently.
In the end, it all came down to HerO versus Mvp, the winners of their respective WCS regions. HerO's path to becoming the king of America included going through aLive, Killer, Scarlett, Suppy, Alicia, Ryung, and Revival. Meanwhile, Mvp's ascent to European royalty included wins against Siw, Socke, Sase, TLO, DIMAGA, and Stephano, with losses to both DIMAGA and Lucifron in the group stage. While it's slightly debatable, we give the edge to HerO.
What about outside of WCS? Mvp didn't have much else to do and in fact only played one game out of WCS EU in April and May combined, losing that game to Scarlett in the GSTL. Meanwhile, HerO had his hands full and was competing in both ATC and SPL. Speaking of SPL, HerO has been doing quite respectably there, ending the round with a 6 - 4 record including wins against herO[join], Jangbi, RorO, and Flash (ok, so he cheesed Flash out). All the while, he's been demonstrating his trademark Hero-esque play in games such as this one. Overall, HerO edges out his European counterpart for this #10 spot.
Parting gets #9 almost solely for making it out of the group of death (including winning a game on a slower game speed!). But since then, he failed to qualify for the WCS season finals by losing to the two KeSPa Zergs, Soulkey and RorO. His Proleague results have also just been above average, only 9-8 since his transfer to SK Telecom. (The most recent of these loses is to Jaedong's notoriously bad ZvP.) That being said, Parting is 3-0 against Flash in the last month. That's gotta count for something, right?
sOs started April strong, showing both solid and creative play at the same time, defeating opponents like MKP, soO, TaeJa, and Bomber. He even won the Indoor Martial Arts Championship Qualifer, beating RorO, Innovation, and Life along the way. Had power ranks returned early in April, we might have even ranked sOs as high as third or fourth. So what happened for sOs in May? His Proleague record actually improved, and he advanced all the way to the semifinals of the GSL, barely missing the finals in a close 3 - 4 loss against Soulkey. Yet this month he resides in eighth place. So what really happened to sOs?
First was the series against Kangho in the quarterfinals of the GSL. It was a bizarre series, a sloppy affair that left us wondering what we had just watched. sOs' image went from a that of a masterful tactician to that of a sloppy, bumbling player with some good ideas, drunkenly ambling to his destination. Then came the semifinals against Soulkey. Oh those semis.
Games 1-3: Horrible, horrible fails from sOs
Game 4: Sloppy play from both sides
Game 5-6: Cannon rushes!
Game 7: Failed two base all-in
From these GSL games, we saw clear faults in sOs: his control, his micro, his execution. As of now, sOs is an incomplete player, one who wishes he could somehow merge with the mechanically gifted Parting to create a perfect being. But for now, eighth place suits him well.
The month, Life secures the seventh place spot mostly based on his past triumphs. After all, he did win the first HotS MLG, and was considered the best player in the world for quite a while. In addition, he was one of only two players to qualify for the aforementioned Indoor Martial Arts tournament, defeating Flash along the way. Besides the group of death, Life's only results this month were losing to NAKSEO in the GSTL and 2 - 0ing MarineKing in GSL. (But at this point, is 2 - 0ing MarineKing in ZvT really an accomplishment?)
Perhaps what gave him the edge over some of his peers on this list is that Life never really played poorly, losing his matches because his opponents played very well, and not because he abruptly dipped in form. This contrasts with sOs and PartinG, who were somewhat inconsistent in their quality of play. Life is still one of the most respected and feared players in the scene and there aren't enough results yet that suggest otherwise.
But the one result that really defined RorO this month was his 0 - 3 loss to Innovation. Especially in the first game where both players played the most standard openings you could ask for, Innovation showed that he was clearly and definitively better at RorO's supposed greatest strength: solid macro play. This sudden realization alone must have been a blow to RorO's pride.
RorO's Proleague record has been slipping as well, dropping from 5 - 0 in Round 4 to 4 - 5 in Round 5, all a reflection of his slightly slumping form. RorO's greatest accomplishments in the last month include defeating Parting to qualify for the WCS season finals and providing us with two highly bizarre, though at the same time, highly entertaininggames.
Poor RorO never got much time in the spotlight. Even though he had won the GSL championship just a few months ago, RorO was still consistently outshone and out-hyped by Innovation, Flash, Life, and even the guy he beat in the finals, Symbol.
We hope Symbol is proud of himself for ranking above his arch-nemesis, RorO. In terms of results, you can't really fault Symbol for losing to Innovation in the GSL. After all, did anyone really expect Symbol to win? But at the same time, you can't really be too impressed at Symbol's semi-final path: Shine, Keen, soO, Gumiho, and Bomber. Though all respectable players in their own right, none really scream out "championship contender". These are all players he should have beaten, and since he did beat them handily, we give him due credit. Symbol achieved the difficult task of transitioning gracefully into a new game, making it all the way to the semifinals of the GSL even though he was one of the last players to switch to HotS.
But one thing he did not carry over with him to HotS was his clutch factor in GSTL matches. Instead of routinely all-killing teams as he did in WoL, Symbol routinely failed in crucial ace matches for Azubu. Symbol was almost always sent out as the final boss and each time he disappointed his team, whether it was against Byun, Squirtle, or Crank. Of these, perhaps the most grievous loss was to Crank in a match he should have, by all means, easily taken. But in a stubborn fit, Symbol refused to consolidate his lead by teching up, and instead decided to throw waves and waves of corruptors into charged void rays.
Next month, we'll be looking for two specific things from Symbol: taking on more difficult challenges and winning a few matches for his team in the GSTL.
Rain was knocked out quite early in this season of GSL and did not have any other opportunities to show his skills in individual leagues. Despite these setbacks, Rain took what he had to work with and ran with it. In the two HotS rounds of Proleague, Rain went 7-2 and 10-3 in what is by far the most consistent performance of the Proleague. Moreover, all five of his losses came from the PvP match-up, one that is notorious for being more than a little luck-based.
But perhaps even more impressive than his raw numbers is his quality of play. When you watch his games, you can't help but be in awe of how perfectly he's executing every facet of his completely standard builds. In this aspect, he knows no peers within the Protoss race and very few from the other races. When Rain loses, it is almost never due to his incompetence but rather because his opponent outplayed him (or PvP). The best example of Rain's stellar execution came during an ace match against Soulkey where both players attempted to out-execute each other with standard play. The result was a victory for Rain in game where you'd be hard pressed to find any mistakes from the Protoss player.
Hopefully, Rain will be able to translate his skill from Proleague into individual leagues, something he has not yet been able to accomplish in HotS. After all, the most vulnerable we've seen Rain in the last month has been during the Challenger League where he looked a bit shaky against Byun. Even though he eventually eked out a 2-1 win, we can't help but feel he doesn't nearly have as much experience or practice on the individual league maps. No doubt Rain will continue his success in Proleague, but it's his individual league success that will determine his ranking in the next month.
From the looks of Flash's position on this power rank, you might have thought that we were still in Brood War. Flash started out the month with a 0-2 dropout from the group of death and a pitiful 3-5 record in round 4 of Proleague. But so what? Flash redoubled his practice efforts and ended up 15-2 in the latest round of Proleague. You heard it right, 15-2 against some of the best players KeSPa has to offer. For his efforts, Flash has now almost certainly secured the very coveted most wins award in Proleague. In his games, Flash has demonstrated an unrelenting style of Terran play, one that could only be matched by that of Innovation. Throughout his run, he showed us a variety of inspiring games, including a ruthless TvZ against hyvaa, a careful TvT against TaeJa, and another action-packed TvT against TY.
Flash shows no sign of slowing down and should be a force to be reckoned with in the next season of WCS KR OSL. He has been improving every month since his switch to StarCraft II and is looking to prove dominance in this game as well.
Wait, Soulkey? GSL champion Soulkey? Yes, weighing in at only number two is the most recent WCS KR GSL champion, Soulkey. After every GSL, we ask ourselves "in which category does this champion belong to?" Will he continue his success and be remembered as one of the greats?(MVP, Nestea, MC, MMA, DRG, Life). Or will he only be a temporary fixture in the ever changing StarCraft scene?(Jjakji, Seed, Sniper) Had Innovation taken the title, the answer would have been near unanimous among fans: Innovation would continue his success to win championship after championship for a long time coming.
But for Soulkey, this is a more difficult question. No one doubts that he is a great player, but so were Jjakji, Seed, and Sniper in their respective primes. The truth is that from the round of eight onward, Soulkey fumbled his way to the championship with 3-2, 4-3, and 4-3 map scores in all three series. His series against Parting was impressive though hardly domineering. The series against sOs was just a complete mess, didn't properly showcase Soulkey's skill, and had the unintended effect of making both Woongjin players look really, really bad. And especially in the finals, it seemed as if Innovation had lost the championship rather than that Soulkey had won it. Perhaps this image summed it up best.
The aforementioned shortcomings are part of the reason Soulkey is not #1 in this month's Power Rankings. Soulkey may be the reigning GSL champion, but his play has not convinced us that he's the best player in the world. Soulkey will have a lot to prove in the upcoming WCS Season finals where he will very likely face his GSL finals opponent once again.
If only Innovation had won that fourth game. Oh, how easy and uncontroversial these rankings would have been. We could have gone with the GSL champion angle and plastered a picture of him kissing his trophy. Or we could have rambled on about how in the last few months, he has seemed like the most indomitable force in HotS yet. Or perhaps we would have taken a look at his record over the last two months and marveled over the fact that he has a positive or even record against every other player on this list, all among the best in the world, and top ten in this power ranking:
Oh, wait. Let's back up a bit. The thing is, that fourth game didn't go as Innovation wanted it to. And neither did the fifth, sixth, or seventh. Innovation dropped four games in a row, blowing a three game lead in possibly the biggest choke in StarCraft II history.
Which means we'll actually have to do some work to justify this #1 ranking. So here goes:
Let's start with the beginning of this month, the group of death. Innovation was not a GSL/MLG champion, a multiple OSL/MSL champion, nor a WCS/WCG champion, and in terms of achievements, it seemed as if he was hopelessly outclassed. But Innovation took this all in stride and proceeded to win the group, producing twoof the most high-level and impressive games we'd see this month. He then went on to face both the winner and runner-up of the last GSL, dispatching both rather effortlessly. In Proleague, Innovation also ended round 5 with a 11-3 record including two all-kills, a record only surpassed by Flash. Yes, "The best RTS players of all time" might be an exaggeration, but no one can doubt that Innovation has provided us with some of the most extraordinary and arresting game-play we'd yet to witness in StarCraft II.
It seems quite harsh that all of this would be negated by the difference of just one game, even if that's the biggest one game there can ever be (that same one game that once separated Mvp and Squirtle; look at where they are now). Taking the whole month into perspective, Innovation was just the more impressive player over Soulkey, both in terms of results and the vigor of their play. Innovation had spent all month climbing the ranks to a championship. But in the end, it was not his skill that failed him, but his composure, composure that slowly corroded over the course of those final four games and finally gave out when his three medivacs flew into the welcoming arms of Soulkey's idle mutalisks.
When it comes down to it, Soulkey may be the GSL champion, but Innovation was just the more impressive player in May. Think of it this way: you have to bet your life on either Soulkey or Innovation in a bo1 against an arbitrary player. Who would you choose?
I know, Hero is from teamliquid but come on lol, no way he is the 10th best player in the world.
''Life's only results this month were losing to NAKSEO in the GSTL and 2 - 0ing MarineKing in GSL. (But at this point, is 2 - 0ing MarineKing in ZvT really an accomplishment?)''
i disagree with soulkey vs innovation. People dick ride innovation way to hard. I think soulkey justified himself as a really great player under pressure and innovation proved that he needs to work on that part of his game. Innovation might have looked more dominant in the games he won, but I think soulkey proved to be the better all around player
Hmm, Innovation #1 over Soulkey? I could agree with that. I never knew that Rain only lost in PvPs, that says something. I'm looking forward to Mvp, Flash, and Rain moving up the Power Rank.
and yeah, I think Losira just narrowly edges out MVP. MVP is the champ of the EU region, and he played very very intelligently (something Losira doesn't do too often -_-...). But it's still just the EU region. I'd only consider Stephano on a similar level to the average Korean and maybe Lucifron (need to see some real results from him first not just spurts of greatness Stephano on the other hand is tried and true). Losira definitely owns MVP in the mechanical regard though. He's like the MKP of Zerg, lots of diversity great fundamentals but no brain :/.
Agree for the most part on everything else. Mayyybe put Symbol ahead of Rain.
I do feel though, Soulkey should've been #1, he's proved it. Maybe we should see if its Soulkey v INnoVation in WCS S1 finals, and then if INnoVation wins, there. Give him first there.
You say in the Innovation paragraph that he was picked as the fourth, when that is not the case. He was picked as the 3rd by Life. (Parting>Life>Innovation>Flash). He picked Flash in a humorous way wanting to complete the group of death!!
Great write-up never-the-less!! Would have kept every rank the same! Glad to see Flash in 3rd. Had he done better in GSL, I'd actually put him in 2nd, because in terms of skill, I actually think he's up there! He IS going to get most-wins after all!
The reason for why I would have Innovation > Soulkey is this... Soulkey beat Innovation in a very important Bo7... But the series was actually a poor representation of EITHER player. I'd say Soulkey played alright and Innovation played "meh". What ended up happening in that finals was about the worst representation of "skill" in all of SC2, minus game 2 and maybe one other. They both made mistakes, Innovation especially with the Akilon Wastes map, where he should have had a won game but who knows what he was thinking. He also should have won the other ones had he just made a tank. People want these games to mean more than they do. When a player wins the GSL Finals, it should mean they are the best player in the world, right? Well, time and time again, that has failed to be the case. Jjakji? Sniper??? Just because GSL has a preparation-based format doesn't make the matches instantly amazing. What ends up happening is both players spend half of the series mind-gaming the other player, because they both studied each other's styles down completely, and the other half of the series is a prepared all-in build. The result is our GSL finals, which turned out to be a gigantic piece of shit, I'm afraid. Don't get me wrong though... I'm a big fan of Innovation and he's by far my favorite player, and I also really like Soulkey and consider him the only truly good player on Woongjin. But that GSL finals was not meaningful. It didn't show good games. Had one player completely outplayed the other instead of going 3-0, then 0-4, I might be able to say that the better player won.
So, with that covered, Innovation's consistency and amazing performances earlier easily surpassed Soulkey's. Had Rain gone up against any other player than Innovation, I wouldn't be surprised if he had actually gotten to the semi-finals or finals. Rain is (or was) on the same tier skill-wise as Soulkey, imo. He just stumbles every so often, as does Flash.
Lastly... Losira's absence is actually something I agree with completely. I'll be honest here and just say that every single match Losira played looked very lackluster. sOs vs Losira? If there was one series worse than Inno vs. Soulkey, it was the sOs - Losira series. It was cringe-worthy. Bomber may be the most predictable Terran in the world, but I am more impressed with his macro capabilities than I am with Losira's all-in capabilities.
MVP's going to look at this list, laugh, and win the finals next weekend. He's not done taking everyone's money, he just took a break and people forgot he's MVP.
On July 23rd, 2012, Polt participated in the 2012 South Korea WCS Preliminaries. Polt received a BYE in round one and then took down IcaruS, Bong, Bogus(Innovation), and faced HyuN in the finals. After taking down Tear by a score of 2:1, Polt advanced in to the World Championship Series: South Korea Nationals.
2012 GSL Here Polt would first win 2-0 against PartinG, and lets not forget that close series against life.
I agree completely with Innovation over Soulkey. People put too much weight on the championship games. Innovation has been consistently better than Soulkey. Not to take away from his big win or anything, SK definitely deserved it. Still, Innovation is the clear #1 player right now.
Also, since this is the power rank I think the list looks good. Personally, I think Life is better than the two zergs above him, but he hasn't justified it for this rank.
Good to see it back. I expect it to be way more controversial than the BW power ranks, I think ranks are much, much more arbitrary here due to the amount of tournaments going on and since cross-ranking is pretty much impossible.
Judging from the Korean pre- and post-GSL interviews, the Korean scene would probably have put Soulkey ahead of Innovation.
On June 05 2013 09:27 Scarecrow wrote: Agreed with it all except Hero at #10. There was hardly any serious competition in WCS America, just look at how deep Revival went.
I would agree if WCS NA was hero's only accomplishment this month. He has been one of the top performers in SPL, matching and even outdoing many of the players on the list. He is by far the best choice for that spot imo.
On June 05 2013 09:27 Scarecrow wrote: Agreed with it all except Hero at #10. There was hardly any serious competition in WCS America, just look at how deep Revival went.
I would agree if WCS NA was hero's only accomplishment this month. He has been one of the top performers in SPL, matching and even outdoing many of the players on the list. He is by far the best choice for that spot imo.
Eh, he's 6-4 in Proleague in May, it's not bad but it's not groundbreaking either. TY, Zest or free have far better records.
On June 05 2013 09:26 teddyoojo wrote: you are not seriously putting soulkey in the same drawer with jjakji sniper and seed......... also symbol in top50 LOL and kangho not in ~~~~
No. Hell no, I would never consider any of the three close to as good as Soulkey... Which is why I said that the GSL finals means a lot less than people think, since all 3 of them have won a GSL finals. Now, Soulkey is incredibly good, but despite taking a WCS KR finals, I'd still rank Innovation above him.
On June 05 2013 09:32 necrosexy wrote: the #1 player in the world doesn't choke from being up 3-0 in a bo7. when it mattered the most, Innovation faltered.
Just wait till this upcoming weekend. After all, the upcoming season finals has a higher prize pool!! (Though, I think we can safely say that the KR Ro16 is considerably stronger than the season finals Ro16!). But, assuming Soulkey and Innovation both do well (Innovation is going to ezmode his group btw, 3 zergs? Oh god...) there SHOULD be a rematch. If there isn't a rematch, it's because either one or both of the players dropped out to a lesser player.
Another thing worth noting for the Soulkey vs Innovation rank 1 debate... In chess, when a player wins a tournament, he doesn't suddenly become the best player in the world, even though he beat everyone else in a series. That's what the purpose of the rankings are. FIDE rankings for Chess Winning a series is important, but if you lose every other game to the guy, then it doesn't mean that much. Of course, Soulkey has proved that he can stand against Innovation, but there are just too few games between the two to rely solely on the WCS KR finals. Innovation's wins against others trumps the 4-3 victory Soulkey had.
On June 05 2013 09:16 Arisen wrote: i disagree with soulkey vs innovation. People dick ride innovation way to hard. I think soulkey justified himself as a really great player under pressure and innovation proved that he needs to work on that part of his game. Innovation might have looked more dominant in the games he won, but I think soulkey proved to be the better all around player
^This. This this this. Innovation may be able to win in an all out macro game most of the time, but that doesn't by any means mean that he is a better player. I think that what is even more impressive was the comeback, no ordinary player, and not Innovation, would be able to have held his cool. In the previous GSL matches with Innovation, he never was actually tested by being down in a series, or by having early pressure applied to the extend Soulkey did. If Innovation were to work on reacting to early pressure, then perhaps I would understand putting him as #1. rOrO's games were mostly macro oriented, and the games Innovation lost to Soulkey were early pressure.
Also as a zerg player, I feel like zerg is still a bit underpowered. Yes, I know that a zerg just won GSL again, but the overall tournament winrates state otherwise.
Also, I would like to see matches between Losira/Kangho, HerO, and Mvp, because that is an extremely close call imo. Normally I would say HerO would lose, but he has been doing great recently.
On June 05 2013 09:16 Arisen wrote: i disagree with soulkey vs innovation. People dick ride innovation way to hard. I think soulkey justified himself as a really great player under pressure and innovation proved that he needs to work on that part of his game. Innovation might have looked more dominant in the games he won, but I think soulkey proved to be the better all around player
Also, I would like to see matches between Losira/Kangho, HerO, and Mvp, because that is an extremely close call imo. Normally I would say HerO would lose, but he has been doing great recently.
Honestly in my mind TY would beat them all, but having absolutely 0 success outside of proleague is killing him.
Pleasantly surprised by innovation on #1. I expected it to be a thoughtless "soulkey won gsl so he's #1" ending, but the writers are actually rational people it seems!
iam so happy we have players like innovation, flash, life Tho, I wish we could see more of Life. Seen so little these past 2-3months, skillwise where is he in present? No idea actually.
We also have Soulkey, i have not seen so much of him tbh. From what ive seen seems to me he is fun to watch to not only gameplay wise but also skillwise
All these players are gameplaywise fun and skillwise fun!
On June 05 2013 09:26 petered wrote: I agree completely with Innovation over Soulkey. People put too much weight on the championship games. Innovation has been consistently better than Soulkey. Not to take away from his big win or anything, SK definitely deserved it. Still, Innovation is the clear #1 player right now.
Also, since this is the power rank I think the list looks good. Personally, I think Life is better than the two zergs above him, but he hasn't justified it for this rank.
So glad this feature is back!
I don't feel strongly about where to put 1 and 2 on this powerrank, but I think not choking has always been really important to powerrank in BW. Comparing soulkey to those players was also not fair, since in BW soulkey was extremely formidable and consistent. I think 1 and 2 are closer than the powerrank lets on, but I don't despise how they ended up ordering them. If we are talking purely about consistency, Flash is in the running too. Getting knocked out early is something that can happen to anyone. It definitely matters a lot to go deep in individual leagues in terms of our perceptions of player skill. Innovation's games vs Flash weren't quite walk overs.
Well, props for doing a Power Ranking, though it's exceedingly difficult to do, especially given how fragmented the scene is. But overall, it's a pretty non-controversial ranking, but I expect some shakeups come the season finals.
On June 05 2013 09:16 Arisen wrote: i disagree with soulkey vs innovation. People dick ride innovation way to hard. I think soulkey justified himself as a really great player under pressure and innovation proved that he needs to work on that part of his game. Innovation might have looked more dominant in the games he won, but I think soulkey proved to be the better all around player
Also as a zerg player, I feel like zerg is still a bit underpowered. Yes, I know that a zerg just won GSL again, but the overall tournament winrates state otherwise.
Also, I would like to see matches between Losira/Kangho, HerO, and Mvp, because that is an extremely close call imo. Normally I would say HerO would lose, but he has been doing great recently.
At least give some reasons as to why you want to call zerg underpowered, or else prepare for a shelling. Besides, please don't bring in balance into a power rank. There are many consistently top performing zergs, just because they don't actually win the whole tournament it doesn't mean they are underpowered. Besides, the game is still being figured out.
Do not agree with Hero at #10 at all, mvp has a much better claim imo. However I would definitely pick Innovation over Soulkey. His wins all the way to the finals were in dominating fashion. Soulkey got there on a series of close shaves and narrow victories. No doubt soulkey is still an excellent player and easily #2 in my book, but really you'd have to be biased to think he can really beat an Innovation in top form.
Hope to see Life rise back to top5, or maybe even top 3. Was so impressed with him after the first HotS MLG.
Innovation over Soulkey shouldn't be in the least bit controversial. Some people will argue it all the same but I think its clear who the best HoTs player is right now and it isn't the GSL champion. In fact the GSL champion didn't really look better than any of the last 3 players he faced in the GSL, he just happened to win the final game in each one. You might say that is "clutch" but really it mostly comes down to variance.
[QUOTE]On June 05 2013 09:16 Arisen wrote: '' but I think soulkey proved to be the better all around player''. No this list is right. Innovation deserves to be in the number one place. Better all around player, are you kidding? Soulkey did the same roach bane all-in and that makes him all around player? lol. facepalm..
On June 05 2013 09:16 Scville wrote: Why Hero > Kangho and MVP?
Kangho almost won vs SoS and he 3-0'ed Bomber
I know, Hero is from teamliquid but come on lol, no way he is the 10th best player in the world.
''Life's only results this month were losing to NAKSEO in the GSTL and 2 - 0ing MarineKing in GSL. (But at this point, is 2 - 0ing MarineKing in ZvT really an accomplishment?)''
Of course, Life didn't play anything else.
HerO should be ranked higher than Mvp. However, He should probably be behind Bomber and Kangho.
On June 05 2013 09:11 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: But the one result that really defined RorO this month was his 0 - 3 loss to Innovation. Especially in the first game where both players played the most standard openings you could ask for, Innovation showed that he was clearly and definitively better at RorO's supposed greatest strength: solid macro play. This sudden realization alone must have been a blow to Symbol's pride.
Amazing how much a little random variation can change the entire narrative about a player. Imagine if the GSL finals between Innovation and Soulkey were a bo5 - would this paragraph be under Soulkey's entry as well? What if Roro and Innovation played in a bo7 instead and he also pulled off the 4-3 comeback?
Top 4 all KeSPA players, I know it's been a year but I'm still impressed they're already dominating the SC2 pro scene so convincingly.
I definitely agree with HerO for #10. His results in Proleague have been fantastic, and winning WCS America + placing high in Dreamhack show he's just on form at the moment and playing really consistently.
HerO deserves to be higher than MVP atm. MVP was the consensus greatest player of WoL, but his recent results do not show that he is better than HerO. MVP won WCS EU beating a grand total of.... wait for it... 0 Koreans! HerO on the other hand beat Alicia, Ryung, and Revival. MVP's beatdown of Stephano (who is not as good as he once was back in WoL) does not qualify. Not to mention that HerO has been playing in proleague, where he holds a positive win rate against the best players in the world, while MVP has not shown too many results.
HerO has beaten CJ herO, Flash, Roro, Reality, and Jangbi over the past several weeks of round 5.
HerO deserves the spot over MVP, and I will fight to the death over that.
I think it's pretty much ok, however i would probably put Hero into a higher position. He always surprises and keeps getting better and better (top 5 protoss worldwide for sure) and I think people still haven't recognized his true potential.
Also, Symbol is definitely one of the best non-Kespa players and achieved very good results, however I don't think he'll maintain his form for long and in the future he will definitely be at the n10 spot if we kept the same list.
Furthermore I'd like to see Life playing in the SPL one day, that's were his skill belongs. Who knows, maybe in the future he'll change team like Parting did...fingers crossed!
Really agree with the Innovation over Soulkey decision, but I cannot believe you ranked Symbol 2 spots over Life. I would be tempted to rank Life even above Soulkey even though the GSL results from this season show Life not making as far as either of them... I dunno.
Edit: Yeah Life should definitely be in Symbol's spot, I think. Switch them. Switch them NOW.
On June 05 2013 09:26 teddyoojo wrote: you are not seriously putting soulkey in the same drawer with jjakji sniper and seed......... also symbol in top50 LOL and kangho not in ~~~~
Im confused by your Symbol comment. You're saying he shouldn't be on the list? Despite consecutive GSL top 4 finishes?
I see the reasons behind all of your picks and the comments make sense. But I strongly disagree with Symbol up that high and the lack of Losira. Thanks for the effort and taking the flak for people's own opinions!
For those who seem insistent on it, yes, you can argue Soulkey #1, but that line of thinking is pretty bogus.
If bomber ever sees this he'd probably cry himself to sleep.
Very happy to see the return of power rank! Overall I have no complaints with the ranking; some positions could always be argued, but I think this is about the most solid top 10 one could ask for.
Hope to see this feature continue for years to come!
I think Life may have been robbed. He got knocked out of the group of death, which is basically why he is ranked there. However, I can understand the rationale considering he hasnt played many games since then.
Also, no love for Bomber but perhaps TL writers have just been hurt too many times
But in the end, it was not his skill that failed him, but his composure
and composure matters. so do results. every player on this list is a champion--except the guy at the top. it's hard to justify, no matter how impressive his less consequential matches have looked. SK exposed him in a lengthy series, where his planning, and, yes, composure, both looked sub par. that's not a good trait for a top tier player to have. as for the notion that SK could be a flash in the pan, he's been perhaps the most consistent GSL performer in the kespa + esf era of GSL. he's earned the right to not be questioned on that front.
Life at 7 seems too low to me. how is he behind flash? I know that Flash dominated SPL round 5, but no one in the world wants to play Life in a best of X series (except maybe Innovation) and he almost certainly gets out of the group of death if the game speed snafu didn't happen. I think he's easily a better player than Symbol or Roro, but I respect their results enough to let them be if you really want. Flash is harder to justify right now. And if you use the "well, but..." argument for Innovation, then you could also use it for Life (who actually does have championship pedigree to back it up)
Pretty good list although the write up, especially of SOS, is surprisingly mediocre and harsh in several places for no reason. Flash should at least be second on the strength of his Proleague performance, which perhaps should count more than WCS Korea given the relative strength of proleague (Because of the way it's structured, GSL generally includes the strongest players from 2 to 3 months ago). Symbol will be the first to fall off that list. He's good but doesn't have the mechanics to hang in the long run, although he's incredibly smart.
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
"But intrigue, BW stats are not everything! This information is all irrelevant!"
I know what you're going to say. "It's a different game." I agree with you, somewhat. Look at the WarCraft 3 guys that are doing so well in the international scene, or at the Brood War careers of the guys winning the GSLs. There hasn't been a huge correlation between Brood War ability and SC2 ability among top tier SC2 pros right now.
You see IM.Mvp and think he's the best Terran. But he's the only legitimate A-team pro (and a mediocre one at that) to transfer over. Nobody else has. Imagine there are hundreds of guys like him, with the same raw ability and mindset. They could be worse, or better, or exactly the same. Now imagine there are two, maybe three, that are just flat out better than Mvp at speed, precision, multitasking, and raw ability. Not just "a little better" but way better. But that's not what separates them from him. Flash and Jaedong, when motivated, have a mindset and work ethic that is unmatched by any other RTS professional. Their ability to focus and practice is not just "way better" than what Mvp is capable of, but orders of magnitudes better. Think the difference between Kobe and "average starter" on an NBA team.
Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
You tell me if those sound like the reality we're currently in.
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
"But intrigue, BW stats are not everything! This information is all irrelevant!"
I know what you're going to say. "It's a different game." I agree with you, somewhat. Look at the WarCraft 3 guys that are doing so well in the international scene, or at the Brood War careers of the guys winning the GSLs. There hasn't been a huge correlation between Brood War ability and SC2 ability among top tier SC2 pros right now.
You see IM.Mvp and think he's the best Terran. But he's the only legitimate A-team pro (and a mediocre one at that) to transfer over. Nobody else has. Imagine there are hundreds of guys like him, with the same raw ability and mindset. They could be worse, or better, or exactly the same. Now imagine there are two, maybe three, that are just flat out better than Mvp at speed, precision, multitasking, and raw ability. Not just "a little better" but way better. But that's not what separates them from him. Flash and Jaedong, when motivated, have a mindset and work ethic that is unmatched by any other RTS professional. Their ability to focus and practice is not just "way better" than what Mvp is capable of, but orders of magnitudes better. Think the difference between Kobe and "average starter" on an NBA team.
Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
You tell me if those sound like the reality we're currently in.
im saying those comments are overdosed and hyperbole. But im further saying, the core argument was kespa players should be better in this game, since the skills do cary over. And it would be foolish to doubt that today. Sc2 is beeing dominated by Kespa talents.
By the way? Hot_bid had in down to 50% in his prediction: Jaedong? didnt do it. Flash? Yep.
On June 05 2013 10:11 The_Darkness wrote: Pretty good list. Flash should at least be second on the strength of his Proleague performance, which perhaps should count more than WCS Korea IMO. Symbol is the first to fall off that list. He's good but doesn't have the mechanics to hang in the long run, although he's incredibly smart.
I disagree with the claim that Flash should be second, but I do think his great proleague record should be taken into account.
Yay HerO!!! Tottaly deserves it come on guys, mvp only beat a couple of europeans and even dropped two sets. HerO dominated his groups and didnt drop a single map all the way to the quarter finals. Not to mention his performance in SPL (3 Killing Samsung) and his play in ATC (all kill mouse esports). hes even #1 in WCS points right now his play always has me on my toes~
Fuck yes, I love Power Rankings. How I've missed thee. Can we also fix the rankings on the right bar of the webpage?
On June 05 2013 10:11 negativedge wrote: Life at 7 seems too low to me. how is he behind flash? I know that Flash dominated SPL round 5, but no one in the world wants to play Life in a best of X series (except maybe Innovation)...
Flash probably does because he's got the mindset of a champion.
On June 05 2013 10:20 Vanadium wrote: Fuck yes, I love Power Rankings. How I've missed thee. Can we also fix the rankings on the right bar of the webpage?
Those are just the TLPD ELO rankings. They haven't had PowerRank listing for a while
It would be nice to see its return to the sidebar though.
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
"But intrigue, BW stats are not everything! This information is all irrelevant!"
I know what you're going to say. "It's a different game." I agree with you, somewhat. Look at the WarCraft 3 guys that are doing so well in the international scene, or at the Brood War careers of the guys winning the GSLs. There hasn't been a huge correlation between Brood War ability and SC2 ability among top tier SC2 pros right now.
You see IM.Mvp and think he's the best Terran. But he's the only legitimate A-team pro (and a mediocre one at that) to transfer over. Nobody else has. Imagine there are hundreds of guys like him, with the same raw ability and mindset. They could be worse, or better, or exactly the same. Now imagine there are two, maybe three, that are just flat out better than Mvp at speed, precision, multitasking, and raw ability. Not just "a little better" but way better. But that's not what separates them from him. Flash and Jaedong, when motivated, have a mindset and work ethic that is unmatched by any other RTS professional. Their ability to focus and practice is not just "way better" than what Mvp is capable of, but orders of magnitudes better. Think the difference between Kobe and "average starter" on an NBA team.
Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
You tell me if those sound like the reality we're currently in.
im saying those comments are overdosed and hyperbole. But im further saying, the core argument was kespa players should be better in this game, since the skills do cary over. And it would be foolish to doubt that today. Sc2 is beeing dominated by Kespa talents.
By the way? Hot_bid had in down to 50% in his prediction: Jaedong? didnt do it. Flash? Yep.
Jaedong could have, but he went to E.G with no Team 8 to practice with he has gotten very bad.
I hope by putting Soulkey in the same place as Jjakji that Innovation ends up like Leenock. Another player who got hot at the right time, was over-hyped and then slowly drifted off.
hero at 10 but putting the power rank in reverse order... clear liquid bias D:
edit:
On June 05 2013 09:11 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: In the end, it all came down to HerO versus Mvp, the winners of their respective WCS regions. HerO's path to becoming the king of America included going through aLive, Killer, Scarlett, Supply, Alicia, Ryung, and Revival.
Objectively, Hero and Mvp both don't deserve to be on the list, Losira deserves to be on the list.
I really don't understand how he was overlooked so easily, and there's not even an explanation for his absence, just " the only player to qualify from WCS KR not on the list ". Why isn't he on the list? It deserves an explanation. edit: it seems the OP was edited
Hero has been doing well in Proleague but his WCS AM championship was rather unimpressive, he lost 2 maps to Revival who was on a 10 game losing streak in Proleague until very recently. I mean, if someone like Revival can make the finals in WCS AM It's not a tournament worth talking about when we figure out who the 10 best players in the world are.
Mvp has played in basically nothing other than WCS EU where he did win in dominating fashion(other than losing to Lucifron) after the offline phase started, but It's still WCS EU, It's not comparable to WCS KR. He played a grand total of 0 Koreans, although the non Koreans were good players they're still non Koreans.
On June 05 2013 10:20 Vanadium wrote: Fuck yes, I love Power Rankings. How I've missed thee. Can we also fix the rankings on the right bar of the webpage?
On June 05 2013 10:11 negativedge wrote: Life at 7 seems too low to me. how is he behind flash? I know that Flash dominated SPL round 5, but no one in the world wants to play Life in a best of X series (except maybe Innovation)...
Flash probably does because he's got the mindset of a champion.
well, I suppose he can want to if that floats his boat, but thus far Life has outclassed him in all of those series.
On June 05 2013 09:19 RiceAgainst wrote: Hmm, Innovation #1 over Soulkey? I could agree with that. I never knew that Rain only lost in PvPs, that says something. I'm looking forward to Mvp, Flash, and Rain moving up the Power Rank.
Thanks for this!
The reason he only loses against protoss, is because most of his games come from PvProleague, ensuing he never plays against a race other than protoss, thus he can never lose against a race other than protoss.
I dont mind the placements of the players, its alright and "fair enough" but symbol all-killing in gstl doesnt seem to feel as "good" as it did before/ the all-kill might sound impressive but in gstl i dont really think it can be compared to proleague. Because symbol is a pretty commonly fielded player for azubu, u would think that the other teams prepares proper snipers.
1. for the first player incase ur first player loses, u instantly have a player ready to send out who is well prepared and has honed a build specifically for that match up.
2. You try to prepare snipers for their star players who should come out at some point. However if you look at how gstl games are...you really dont get the feeling teams are trying as hard as they should be (if the league was very important, like kespa teams do for proleague) Theres been so many all-kills in this season of gstl its starting to lose the all-kill "awe"
Its MEANT to be amazing because when u all-kill it means you overcame the snipers, their star players, and overall played solidly and amazingly. GSTL competition/spirit seems weak atm
So happy power ranking is back again :D These ranks seem very accurate at the moment and hope the thought process going into these Sc2 power ranks are as deep as the ones made for BW every month ^__^
On June 05 2013 10:26 Dodgin wrote: Objectively, Hero and Mvp both don't deserve to be on the list, Losira deserves to be on the list.
I really don't understand how he was overlooked so easily, and there's not even an explanation for his absence, just " the only player to qualify from WCS KR not on the list ". Why isn't he on the list? It deserves an explanation. edit: it seems the OP was edited
Hero has been doing well in Proleague but his WCS AM championship was rather unimpressive, he lost 2 maps to Revival who was on a 10 game losing streak in Proleague until very recently. I mean, if someone like Revival can make the finals in WCS AM It's not a tournament worth talking about when we figure out who the 10 best players in the world are.
Mvp has played in basically nothing other than WCS EU where he did win in dominating fashion(other than losing to Lucifron) after the offline phase started, but It's still WCS EU, It's not comparable to WCS KR. He played a grand total of 0 Koreans, although the non Koreans were good players they're still non Koreans.
That isn't Objectively at all, that is just your opinion buddy, I don't know how you can pretend otherwise. Looking at the players Losira beat recently (TRUE (x2), Soo, Gumiho, Bomber) compared to HerO (herO, Jangbi, Roro, Flash, Alicia, Ryung, Revival, decent foreigners) how can you say that Losira's results are objectively better during this period?
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
"But intrigue, BW stats are not everything! This information is all irrelevant!"
I know what you're going to say. "It's a different game." I agree with you, somewhat. Look at the WarCraft 3 guys that are doing so well in the international scene, or at the Brood War careers of the guys winning the GSLs. There hasn't been a huge correlation between Brood War ability and SC2 ability among top tier SC2 pros right now.
You see IM.Mvp and think he's the best Terran. But he's the only legitimate A-team pro (and a mediocre one at that) to transfer over. Nobody else has. Imagine there are hundreds of guys like him, with the same raw ability and mindset. They could be worse, or better, or exactly the same. Now imagine there are two, maybe three, that are just flat out better than Mvp at speed, precision, multitasking, and raw ability. Not just "a little better" but way better. But that's not what separates them from him. Flash and Jaedong, when motivated, have a mindset and work ethic that is unmatched by any other RTS professional. Their ability to focus and practice is not just "way better" than what Mvp is capable of, but orders of magnitudes better. Think the difference between Kobe and "average starter" on an NBA team.
Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.
You tell me if those sound like the reality we're currently in.
im saying those comments are overdosed and hyperbole. But im further saying, the core argument was kespa players should be better in this game, since the skills do cary over. And it would be foolish to doubt that today. Sc2 is beeing dominated by Kespa talents.
By the way? Hot_bid had in down to 50% in his prediction: Jaedong? didnt do it. Flash? Yep.
I agree that it's preposterous to think that KESPA could just switch over and dominate and that there were several hundred KESPA pros that could achieve great results. Plenty of BW pros had switched over and had mediocre results. I think the biggest carryover from BW is the superior work ethic that comes from being on a KESPA team. These guys are true pros. You watch proleague and then watch the GSTL and you can just see how much, on the whole, crisper and more, for lack of a better word, "professional" the KESPA pros seem. On the whole, the KESPA pros train harder and smarter. Talent is part of the equation since a good portion of the potential video game talent pool tried its hand at BW and those that weren't elite retired, leaving a core group of BW pro gamers who were very good at that which makes one good at BW. Slowly but surely, they are squeezing the ESF pros out of the GSL. Some undoubtedly will remain but over the long haul the superior machinery that the KESPA teams have in place is only going to further widen the gap between the ESF and KESPA pros (in the aggregate). At the moment I don't think anyone can seriously doubt that there isn't a wide gap between the cream of the crop in KESPA and in ESF.
On June 05 2013 11:01 Aserrin wrote: soO, Gumiho and Bomber are (way) better than herO, Alicia, Ryung, Revival and any foreigner though.
is soO gumiho and bomber better than flash jangbi roro? geez Did they win anything recently? are they #1 in WCS points? if HerO was in code S he would probably do decent depending on his day. if he is a monster that particular month then he could get to the round of 8 or even higher in code S imo
On June 05 2013 11:01 Aserrin wrote: soO, Gumiho and Bomber are (way) better than herO, Alicia, Ryung, Revival and any foreigner though.
Objectively or Subjectively? Because I know Bomber and Gumiho are good, but they haven't been performing great lately, so I don't see any reason to give too much merit to those wins. Remember this was Bombers first ro8 in a really long time and I don't remember Gumiho winning anything lately. To be honest I don't know much about soO, but his current record in HoTS is not impressive either.
I'm not suggesting that this means that they are better than the players you mentioned, but that beating them at the moment are not really noteworthy achievements.
On June 05 2013 10:55 BoxingKangaroo wrote: Soukey beats Innovation in the one objective way to show skill and still gets placed behind Innovation. OK.
Flash still getting by on his reputation. He's been hyped as 'looking to prove his dominance' for six months now. Hasn't happened.
Also, Proleague BO1's given too much weight honestly. Especially given the lack of competition against ESF players.
Flash was 15-2 in the most recent round of proleague, which is the strongest league in SC2 at the moment. With just that stat, you could make a very good case that he's #1 overall. In fact, if you used an objective Elo measure I'm guessing Flash is almost certainly #1 at present. (TLPD is horrendously out of date and should be taken down if it's not going to be updated, by the way.) Which non-proleague player is supposed to give Flash any trouble except perhaps for Life?
On June 05 2013 10:55 BoxingKangaroo wrote: Soukey beats Innovation in the one objective way to show skill and still gets placed behind Innovation. OK.
Flash still getting by on his reputation. He's been hyped as 'looking to prove his dominance' for six months now. Hasn't happened.
Also, Proleague BO1's given too much weight honestly. Especially given the lack of competition against ESF players.
Flash was 15-2 in the most recent round of proleague, which is the strongest league in SC2 at the moment. With just that stat, you could make a very good case that he's #1 overall. In fact, if you used an objective Elo measure I'm guessing Flash is almost certainly #1 at present. (TLPD is horrendously out of date and should be taken down if it's not going to be updated, by the way.) Which non-proleague player is supposed to give Flash any trouble except perhaps for Life?
On June 05 2013 10:26 Dodgin wrote: Objectively, Hero and Mvp both don't deserve to be on the list, Losira deserves to be on the list.
I really don't understand how he was overlooked so easily, and there's not even an explanation for his absence, just " the only player to qualify from WCS KR not on the list ". Why isn't he on the list? It deserves an explanation. edit: it seems the OP was edited
Hero has been doing well in Proleague but his WCS AM championship was rather unimpressive, he lost 2 maps to Revival who was on a 10 game losing streak in Proleague until very recently. I mean, if someone like Revival can make the finals in WCS AM It's not a tournament worth talking about when we figure out who the 10 best players in the world are.
Mvp has played in basically nothing other than WCS EU where he did win in dominating fashion(other than losing to Lucifron) after the offline phase started, but It's still WCS EU, It's not comparable to WCS KR. He played a grand total of 0 Koreans, although the non Koreans were good players they're still non Koreans.
That isn't Objectively at all, that is just your opinion buddy, I don't know how you can pretend otherwise. Looking at the players Losira beat recently (TRUE (x2), Soo, Gumiho, Bomber) compared to HerO (herO, Jangbi, Roro, Flash, Alicia, Ryung, Revival, decent foreigners) how can you say that Losira's results are objectively better during this period?
I weigh GSL results more than Proleague, Other than Flash and Roro the caliber of players they played is about the same. I say objectively because I am a big fan of both Hero and Mvp so I'm looking outside of my own bias.
WCS AM and EU results are worth almost nothing in relation to a Power Rank of the top 10 players in the world, if Hero were to deserve a spot on the ranking it would have to be almost entirely from his Proleague results, which are good but not as good as some other players who are not on the list. Zest from KT comes to mind immediately, TY from Team 8 as well.
I think too much weight is put on WCS AM & EU, Mvp shouldn't be #11, part of that is probably because It's Mvp but I don't think you should place players on faith alone. This would have been a lot easier to do had the list come out after the season finals, we'll see who is right soon enough.
On June 05 2013 09:16 Scville wrote: Why Hero > Kangho and MVP?
Kangho almost won vs SoS and he 3-0'ed Bomber
I know, Hero is from teamliquid but come on lol, no way he is the 10th best player in the world.
''Life's only results this month were losing to NAKSEO in the GSTL and 2 - 0ing MarineKing in GSL. (But at this point, is 2 - 0ing MarineKing in ZvT really an accomplishment?)''
Of course, Life didn't play anything else.
This is going to sound mean, but your comment made me laugh out loud.
Losira's path to where he got in GSL was very easy compared to the other players, Bomber is a notorious choke artist (especially in the GSL), and the games he lost to sOs were mostly complete trouncings.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that Losira has been a benchwarmer who lost his only recent GSTL match for IM, and HerO is the cornerstone for EG-TL. SPL is a MUCH harder league than GSTL in general and is much more well respected, and Losira's not even doing well in the GSTL, much less posting the kind of results HerO can claim in the toughest team league in SC2.
The more that i think about it, the more i want TL if they indeed want to continue this to make a statement how high they rate each league. It's quite a obvious that proleague is rated above anything else but at least say it out loud in the OP.
On June 05 2013 10:53 ZenithM wrote: Fully agree with the power rankings. Shame Kane didn't make it though. Huehuehue.
Ok, then what is your reason for Losira not making it
Seems like everyone forgot about him after he changed his name :/
I don't know, I just think he isn't that good :/ I know he did quite well in last Code S, but he honestly had the easier groups each time. On the other hand Proleague might give too big of a boost to Kespa players in this ranking :D. GSTL is imo inferior so we don't care as much about how a player does in GSTL :/
I don't recognize #4, Kal. Has he moved on or can I await his arrival? (the 'pedias doesn't mention retirement).
I'm pretty sure Kal retired after Airforce ACE disbanded.
They were talking about him during proleague last night. Said his enlistment is almost up and he still has to decide whether to return to his old team (STX Soul), change teams, or retire.
I don't recognize #4, Kal. Has he moved on or can I await his arrival? (the 'pedias doesn't mention retirement).
I'm pretty sure Kal retired after Airforce ACE disbanded.
They were talking about him during proleague last night. Said his enlistment is almost up and he still has to decide whether to return to his old team (STX Soul), change teams, or retire.
Awesome, it would be amazing to see him back. STX really needs someone with a bit of charisma these days.
On June 05 2013 09:20 ch33psh33p wrote: Hero at number 10 is such a ridiculous cop out.
How? HerO and MVP both won WCS, but HerO has been quite good in Proleague and beat better players on the way to his championship.
As a side bonus HerO has also just LOOKED like a much better player.
Mvp looked more dominant during the WCS EU playoffs, dropping only 1 map to Stephano. Hero looked a lot more shaky, even though he did look dominant in the group stages.
In the end, this all matters little. This weekend is the season finals, and we'll really see who is the world's best player.
I don't recognize #4, Kal. Has he moved on or can I await his arrival? (the 'pedias doesn't mention retirement).
I'm pretty sure Kal retired after Airforce ACE disbanded.
They were talking about him during proleague last night. Said his enlistment is almost up and he still has to decide whether to return to his old team (STX Soul), change teams, or retire.
Awesome, it would be amazing to see him back. STX really needs someone with a bit of charisma these days.
Yeah hopefully he gives it a shot. I agree with you, the Korean scene needs as much charisma as it can get.
First and foremost, Welcome back Power Rankings, Oh how I missed you. I remember always reading every ranking posts back in the BW days. I also very disappointed when you guys stopped, but Welcome back, I hope you stay for a long time. Secondly, well done on this ranking post, I agree with most of it. The only thing I would change would be giving MVP and HerO a tie for 10th place. I mean granted during the WCS europe finals we only saw MVP play TvZ, but he dominated everyone he played. He 3-0 TLO, who was doing really well in this tourney, 3-0 Dimaga, who was shaky but showed potential to get into the finals when he played Happy, then went on to 4-1 Stephano, who some would say is one of the greatest non-korean sc2 players in the world. Let me rephrase that, he didn't just dominate them, he made a statement. He told the world, "Im MVP and I'm back to kick @$$." Lastly, Soulkey vs Innovation, just wtf was that. I like soulkey, I wanted soulkey to win, but I didn't want him to win like that... that was just terrible. Even his game with sOs was blah. I even went so far as to think since they're on the same team maybe they played horribly on propose to throw off innovation. Nope. Innovation may have lost in the finals, but still is a better player than soulkey. I hope soulkey can do something soon, just luck can only help a player for so long. With that being said, WCS season finals are going to be something to look forward to.
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Agreed with Innovation at #1. A single BoX can never determine the better player. Unless you want power rankings to change after every single game played, which would be pretty damn stupid. It's not like it's a wwe title belt which is always on the line. If it is, then sure, Soulkey #1. Wait no, that would be Flash.
Im not sure if you can say that Soulkey won several best of x series against top competition based on luck alone. The whole purpose of a best of 7 is to minimize the luck factor. He won because he played better that night. Thats how best of series work.
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
So when the other player played worse then you you aren't better? Please, explain that to me. And please don't say like the ranking info that he didn't lost on skill. Controlling your nerve and not tilting/choking is part of being a champion, as well is throwing all in's and keep throwing all in's if for some reason "the best player in the world" keeps falling for it.
Hero #10 instead of MVP? Non-sense. WCS NA this season had weakest members of all and all koreans who participated in WCS NA were the ones who had no chance in korea. Well. Hero wonders why there were so little people on WCS NA final and why he didn't get loud cheers or why he didn't feel like winning a championship. It's because WCS NA was not impressive or fun at all and top 8 members were all boring to watch compared to WCS KR or WCS EU. Just watch. WCS NA will get knocked around so hard in this week's season final. The only reason Hero is even on this list is because This is teamliquid site and Hero is their team. I am sorry but no. Hero shouldn't even be on top 20.
On June 05 2013 11:29 Goibon wrote: Agreed with Innovation at #1. A single BoX can never determine the better player. Unless you want power rankings to change after every single game played, which would be pretty damn stupid. It's not like it's a wwe title belt which is always on the line. If it is, then sure, Soulkey #1. Wait no, that would be Flash.
exactly. That's why we have the unofficial world champion thread :D
List is pretty spot on. Although I would reverse the order of 5,6, and 7. Although Symbol's results have been good, he hasn't really impressed me, and if him and Life were to bo1 an arbitrary, I'd put my money on Life.
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
On June 05 2013 10:55 BoxingKangaroo wrote: Soukey beats Innovation in the one objective way to show skill and still gets placed behind Innovation. OK.
Flash still getting by on his reputation. He's been hyped as 'looking to prove his dominance' for six months now. Hasn't happened.
Also, Proleague BO1's given too much weight honestly. Especially given the lack of competition against ESF players.
Since getting knocked out of code S, Flash has gone 18-3. Getting by on his reputation...? Also, why does it matter that ESF players aren't playing? Unless you think that ESF players are significantly better than Kespa players, what's the difference?
Wow... even the power-rank resembles GGPlay vs Iris where Iris got first despire GGPlay winning the OSL going through 2-1 and 3-2/3-1 all the way. All I have to say then, based on such history, is don't doubt Soulkey. :p
On June 05 2013 11:27 WildCardNinja wrote: I hope soulkey can do something soon, just luck can only help a player for so long.
Soulkey fought tooth and nail through every bracket he was in. He didn't give up in any series' he was down in, and he pushed himself all the way to the finals and more. The guy has nerves of steel, and an unwillingness to give up. You can't call that luck..
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
But there are also three different matchups to consider. X vs Y is only one of them, you know.
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
But there are also three different matchups to consider. X vs Y is only one of them, you know.
I get what your saying and after its all said and done, power rankings have to have an element of opinion but its tough for me to buy Innovation being ranked above Soulkey because Soulkey beat him heads up. He also beat a number of other top pros along the way to winning WCS KR. And they were all best of series. The purpose of best of series is to minimize luck and reward the better player.
On June 05 2013 11:36 Shellshock1122 wrote: I want Turn in the power rank because he crushed Innovation in proleague and clearly if he beats Innovation he's the better player
Hey, if he beaten him in a GSL final, by all means. Or wait i get it. A proleague Bo1 is rated as high as a GSL final right.
I have to say that is a decisively negative "analysis" of Soulkey, compared to with a large apologetic post about Innovation. I see Soulkey being immediately compared to GSL one-hit wonders... For what reason? Other than perhaps a bitter taste? Or lack of respect?
Oh, also, you say Soulkey "fumbled his way to the championship[.]" How amusing to reference a negative verb in relation to obtaining the hardest title in SC2. And then when he reverse-kills who you call the best player, innovation, now it is just innovation doing the fucking up, rather than Soulkey impressing?
I even agree that Innovation is probably the better player overall, but you kind of unnecessarily dragged soulkey through the mud to get the point across. "Oh soulkey won? So did Jjakji once. NEXT!"
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough row to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
On June 05 2013 10:26 Dodgin wrote: Objectively, Hero and Mvp both don't deserve to be on the list, Losira deserves to be on the list.
I really don't understand how he was overlooked so easily, and there's not even an explanation for his absence, just " the only player to qualify from WCS KR not on the list ". Why isn't he on the list? It deserves an explanation. edit: it seems the OP was edited
Hero has been doing well in Proleague but his WCS AM championship was rather unimpressive, he lost 2 maps to Revival who was on a 10 game losing streak in Proleague until very recently. I mean, if someone like Revival can make the finals in WCS AM It's not a tournament worth talking about when we figure out who the 10 best players in the world are.
Mvp has played in basically nothing other than WCS EU where he did win in dominating fashion(other than losing to Lucifron) after the offline phase started, but It's still WCS EU, It's not comparable to WCS KR. He played a grand total of 0 Koreans, although the non Koreans were good players they're still non Koreans.
That isn't Objectively at all, that is just your opinion buddy, I don't know how you can pretend otherwise. Looking at the players Losira beat recently (TRUE (x2), Soo, Gumiho, Bomber) compared to HerO (herO, Jangbi, Roro, Flash, Alicia, Ryung, Revival, decent foreigners) how can you say that Losira's results are objectively better during this period?
I weigh GSL results more than Proleague, Other than Flash and Roro the caliber of players they played is about the same. I say objectively because I am a big fan of both Hero and Mvp so I'm looking outside of my own bias.
WCS AM and EU results are worth almost nothing in relation to a Power Rank of the top 10 players in the world, if Hero were to deserve a spot on the ranking it would have to be almost entirely from his Proleague results, which are good but not as good as some other players who are not on the list. Zest from KT comes to mind immediately, TY from Team 8 as well.
I think too much weight is put on WCS AM & EU, Mvp shouldn't be #11, part of that is probably because It's Mvp but I don't think you should place players on faith alone. This would have been a lot easier to do had the list come out after the season finals, we'll see who is right soon enough.
Hm okay my bad, I thought you were only comparing HerO, MVP and Losira. Even still, I would argue that first in AM and a decent Proleague record to back it up is better than eighth in KR and at least comparable to a superior Proleague record. I honestly think you are weighting GSL ranks too highly and EU/AM too low, don't get me wrong I do agree with your ordering of preference, but I disagree with the margin of difference, hence why your opinion is still only Subjective, since its based on how you choose to weight the different leagues.
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
It's not a random series tough. It were the finals, shouldn't that count for a tiny bit more? These players have gotten a week of preperation purely for this one bo7.
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
To the guys complaining about Innovation being #1, PowerRank is based on MONTHLY performance and you can't argue against Innovation's impressive play since HotS came out. The only top player he doesn't have a even or positive W:L against is Soulkey. Like Flash, he has been carrying his team in Proleague. Just look at his road to GSL final. Thats like the hardest path to the finals ever.
With exception of Rain(OSL Champ and PL beast) and Flash(God) both of whom are in the race for most wins in this PL Season along with Innovation, everyone Innovation beat on the way to the finals was a GSL finalist/champion. And he beat them all in a convincing fashion apart from a 1:2 loss to Rain in the first match. I'm a big Soulkey supporter but even I can see Innovation is #1 for this month. Especially considering Soulkey lost some games he should no way have lost and showed some wtf are you doing moments, especially the Game 4 against Parting where his ling runby wrecked shit up into spine the fuck up into lose and sOs series shitfest. While Soulkey is also very good in PL, he hasn't had as many opportunities as Flash and Innovation to roll over the opposition so Innovation also has that over him. Innovation #1.
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then x is better. Am I missing something here?
You shitting me? You could say Soulkey lost the first 3 games and Innovation didnt win them too. He looked like garbage and made tons of mistakes. In the end he took the series and has a winning record versus him. He also beat the other guys to get to the finals. How is that worth a second place placing? Also you are trying to compare him to Seed etc? Soulkey has been one of the most feared Kespa players basically since they joined. He along with Effort and a couple others were always put out there as the best. Now he wins and he is doubted and yet the 2nd place person isnt? Hah.
I'm actually pretty ok with how the rankings are. I mean I feel like #10 will always be a highly debated spot. Hope to see sOs move up in the coming months and take the top protoss spot. I think Life will be able to move back up, too, once he starts playing some more games again.
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then x is better. Am I missing something here?
You are missing math called variance?
As I said before, it would be one thing if he just beat him on ladder or in the middle of a tourney. But to beat him and win one of if not the most competitive tournament makes it extremely difficult to argue that Soulkey is not better.
Totally agree with the powerlist. Putting Hero above MVP might feel a bit weird, but if you think about it, Hero does look really solid nowadays, not only winning WCS NA but also taking out some great players at Proleague. MVP was only seen in WCS EU, and while he did great there, his play seemed less solid than Hero's.
On June 05 2013 11:44 yrt123 wrote: Woo yay! Finally Power Rank for SC2.
To the guys complaining about Innovation being #1, PowerRank is based on MONTHLY performance and you can't argue against Innovation's impressive play since HotS came out. The only top player he doesn't have a even or positive W:L against is Soulkey. Like Flash, he has been carrying his team in Proleague. Just look at his road to GSL final. Thats like the hardest path to the finals ever.
With exception of Rain(OSL Champ and PL beast) and Flash(God), everyone he beat on the way to the finals was a GSL finalist/champion. And he beat them all in a convincing fashion apart from a 1:2 loss to Rain in the first match. I'm a big Soulkey supporter but even I can see Innovation is #1 for this month. Especially considering Soulkey lost some games he should no way have lost and showed some wtf are you doing moments, especially the Game 4 against Parting where his ling runby wrecked shit up into spine the fuck up into lose and sOs series shitfest. While Soulkey is also very good in PL, he hasn't had as many opportunities as Flash and Innovation to roll over the opposition so Innovation also has that over him. Innovation #1.
Isn't that a contradiction when making your own argument?
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Ok, take this situation. x player is 100-0 in Proleague. y player is 0-100 in Proleague against the same players. They play a series, and y wins 4-3. Is y the better player now?
On June 05 2013 10:26 Dodgin wrote: Objectively, Hero and Mvp both don't deserve to be on the list, Losira deserves to be on the list.
I really don't understand how he was overlooked so easily, and there's not even an explanation for his absence, just " the only player to qualify from WCS KR not on the list ". Why isn't he on the list? It deserves an explanation. edit: it seems the OP was edited
Hero has been doing well in Proleague but his WCS AM championship was rather unimpressive, he lost 2 maps to Revival who was on a 10 game losing streak in Proleague until very recently. I mean, if someone like Revival can make the finals in WCS AM It's not a tournament worth talking about when we figure out who the 10 best players in the world are.
Mvp has played in basically nothing other than WCS EU where he did win in dominating fashion(other than losing to Lucifron) after the offline phase started, but It's still WCS EU, It's not comparable to WCS KR. He played a grand total of 0 Koreans, although the non Koreans were good players they're still non Koreans.
That isn't Objectively at all, that is just your opinion buddy, I don't know how you can pretend otherwise. Looking at the players Losira beat recently (TRUE (x2), Soo, Gumiho, Bomber) compared to HerO (herO, Jangbi, Roro, Flash, Alicia, Ryung, Revival, decent foreigners) how can you say that Losira's results are objectively better during this period?
I weigh GSL results more than Proleague, Other than Flash and Roro the caliber of players they played is about the same. I say objectively because I am a big fan of both Hero and Mvp so I'm looking outside of my own bias.
WCS AM and EU results are worth almost nothing in relation to a Power Rank of the top 10 players in the world, if Hero were to deserve a spot on the ranking it would have to be almost entirely from his Proleague results, which are good but not as good as some other players who are not on the list. Zest from KT comes to mind immediately, TY from Team 8 as well.
I think too much weight is put on WCS AM & EU, Mvp shouldn't be #11, part of that is probably because It's Mvp but I don't think you should place players on faith alone. This would have been a lot easier to do had the list come out after the season finals, we'll see who is right soon enough.
Hm okay my bad, I thought you were only comparing HerO, MVP and Losira. Even still, I would argue that first in AM and a decent Proleague record to back it up is better than eighth in KR and at least comparable to a superior Proleague record. I honestly think you are weighting GSL ranks too highly and EU/AM too low, don't get me wrong I do agree with your ordering of preference, but I disagree with the margin of difference, hence why your opinion is still only Subjective, since its based on how you choose to weight the different leagues.
I'll concede that point, you're right. My tournament weights are subjective and everyone's will be different. Maybe I'm not giving enough respect to WCS AM & EU, but Revival making the finals in WCS AM with his 5-14 record and recent 10 game losing streak in Proleague makes it hard for me to take the tournament seriously. Mvp did dominate the ro8 onward in WCS EU, but It's hard to say how much that really means because while TLO, Dimaga and Stephano are amazing players, how good are they compared to the players the Korean representatives have been playing against? The answer isn't clear because foreigners have almost no chance to play against Kespa players since MLG 3 days after HotS launch. Maybe the gap is closer than I think? Like I said we'll find out soon.
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Ok, take this situation. x player is 100-0 in Proleague. y player is 0-100 in Proleague against the same players. They play a series, and y wins 4-3. Is y the better player now?
Valid argument and I see your point. I guess I read the rankings under the assumption that the individual league took precedence over the team league. But I don't think Soulkey's Proleague performance is so much worse than Innovations to trump his individual win against him for the WCS KR title.
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Just wondering, with the flawless logic you're using there, what happens if c beats x and then loses to y. Who should be on top in that three man ranking?
On June 05 2013 11:44 yrt123 wrote: Woo yay! Finally Power Rank for SC2.
To the guys complaining about Innovation being #1, PowerRank is based on MONTHLY performance and you can't argue against Innovation's impressive play since HotS came out. The only top player he doesn't have a even or positive W:L against is Soulkey. Like Flash, he has been carrying his team in Proleague. Just look at his road to GSL final. Thats like the hardest path to the finals ever.
With exception of Rain(OSL Champ and PL beast) and Flash(God), everyone he beat on the way to the finals was a GSL finalist/champion. And he beat them all in a convincing fashion apart from a 1:2 loss to Rain in the first match. I'm a big Soulkey supporter but even I can see Innovation is #1 for this month. Especially considering Soulkey lost some games he should no way have lost and showed some wtf are you doing moments, especially the Game 4 against Parting where his ling runby wrecked shit up into spine the fuck up into lose and sOs series shitfest. While Soulkey is also very good in PL, he hasn't had as many opportunities as Flash and Innovation to roll over the opposition so Innovation also has that over him. Innovation #1.
Isn't that a contradiction when making your own argument?
The article already said it is accounting for earlier results as well since it is the first Power Rank of SC2 did it not?
On June 05 2013 10:28 Emzeeshady wrote: [quote] What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Ok, take this situation. x player is 100-0 in Proleague. y player is 0-100 in Proleague against the same players. They play a series, and y wins 4-3. Is y the better player now?
Valid argument and I see your point. I guess I read the rankings under the assumption that the individual league took precedence over the team league. But I don't think Soulkey's Proleague performance is so much worse than Innovations to trump his individual win against him for the WCS KR title.
Looking at round 5 which was basically the month of may Soulkey: 5-4 Innovation: 11-3 Depends on who you subjectively weight each league
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Just wondering, with the flawless logic you're using there, what happens if c beats x and then loses to y. Who should be on top in that three man ranking?
That didn't happen though. Soulkey beat him and then continued on to win the tournament. I would probably go off of alphabetical order at that point and say C wins.
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Yes, you are. There are a number of factors, unrelated to raw skill, which affect the result of any given match between 2 individuals or teams. Ranging from sickness, through weather, to whatever mood the player is on during the match, there are tons of factors, which means that a single match isn't a "pure" sample of the players' skill. From that, we can logically conclude that a large sample of matches is required to determine if one player is significantly better than the other, since we don't have that for Bogus and Soulkey, we use their perceived skill throughout their history with the game to determine who is better. In this case, the evidence points to Bogus being the better player, he's played more and better matches against generally better competition and won more, it's safe to say he's the better player.
Also, small evidence points to something else regarding Bogus, that he's a wimp and silver surfer. He lost to Flash in an important match at MLG, and now loses to Soulkey in a match in which he was considered heavily favored, after having a 3-0 lead. But that's a different issue.
On June 05 2013 11:03 takingbackoj wrote: [quote] Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Ok, take this situation. x player is 100-0 in Proleague. y player is 0-100 in Proleague against the same players. They play a series, and y wins 4-3. Is y the better player now?
Valid argument and I see your point. I guess I read the rankings under the assumption that the individual league took precedence over the team league. But I don't think Soulkey's Proleague performance is so much worse than Innovations to trump his individual win against him for the WCS KR title.
Looking at round 5 which was basically the month of may Soulkey: 5-4 Innovation: 11-3 Depends on who you subjectively weight each league
Good point. Without knowing that I can't really say whether the ranking makes sense or not.
On June 05 2013 11:56 rift wrote: I wonder if a foreigner will ever make the top 10.
not without playing in proleague, wcs korea, or winning the wcs season championship most likely. Or making it to like the ro4/finals beating a couple of really good koreans
thanks . i posted about rain vs soulkey everywhere even wanted to make a guide but nobody offered to help . Rain and Jangbi show the way protoss should be played . Rain ftw . perfect macro monster with no mistakes . same for jangbi .
I once again ask if it would be possible for the writers to come and just simply say how heavily each tournament is weighed from now on. If proleague is as high as i think, well there is only 1way these threads can go.
Yeah I agree with innovation. He looked strong in the games he won in the finals, and overall in proleague his record is better. I think it was just BO 7 mind games that got him.
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
So there is never a time when you see one player lose to another yet still consider him a better overall player?
There are all kinds of ways to determine which player is superior, head to head scores are just part of the equation even if it was in the finals. While I agree that composure is an important factor in a player, if one player seems to play better in a straight up game when both players are composed I would give them the edge, since I would consider a players peak performance most important for something called Power Rank (my opinion). However I would still be wary that players who have composure/consistency problems are often in danger of falling off if they can't get their shit together.
On June 05 2013 09:21 opterown wrote: where's polt
Fionn didn't write this.
On June 05 2013 09:46 Quakecomm wrote: um wasn't it INnoVation 3:4 Soulkey?
They played two additional matches in Proleague.
On June 05 2013 11:04 Poo wrote: feels like Protoss bias personally. I don't think MVP and Parting are comparable currently.
I have no idea if you're talking about bias in favor of Protoss or against.
On June 05 2013 11:19 Assirra wrote: The more that i think about it, the more i want TL if they indeed want to continue this to make a statement how high they rate each league. It's quite a obvious that proleague is rated above anything else but at least say it out loud in the OP.
Yes, Proleague is probably at a higher level than GSTL. But the bigger reason we reference Proleague more than GSTL is that there are way more results to refer to, which is able to tell a better story.
Innovation's road to the GSL finals was harder, his Proleague stats are better, he's better.
Soulkey was just better that one night and edged out a win in a best of seven that made neither player look like a champion. Also consider that SK's semi-final match was another seven game series full of bad play...
Honestly it all comes down to this weekend, though. If Soulkey wins again I'll give more credit.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Ok, take this situation. x player is 100-0 in Proleague. y player is 0-100 in Proleague against the same players. They play a series, and y wins 4-3. Is y the better player now?
Valid argument and I see your point. I guess I read the rankings under the assumption that the individual league took precedence over the team league. But I don't think Soulkey's Proleague performance is so much worse than Innovations to trump his individual win against him for the WCS KR title.
Looking at round 5 which was basically the month of may Soulkey: 5-4 Innovation: 11-3 Depends on who you subjectively weight each league
Good point. Without knowing that I can't really say whether the ranking makes sense or not.
You can look just look at Code S too. Soulkey: 19-12 against Maru, Flying, Yoda, Parting, sOs, Innovation Innovation: 19-7 against Rain, Hyun, Flash, Life, RorO, Symbol, Soulkey If you only know this and do not know who won the tournament tell me who looks better on paper.
Winning GSL is definitely a huge accomplishment. Soulkey may be more skilled than Innovation but he doesn't show it nearly as much as Innovation showed in his matches.
I would ask though why is immvp not higher considering he is arguably the most accomplished player in SC 2 and even recently made EU wcs. I do think proleague has the highest level games now, and the top kespa players are the best at SC 2 now.
On June 05 2013 10:26 Dodgin wrote: Objectively, Hero and Mvp both don't deserve to be on the list, Losira deserves to be on the list.
I really don't understand how he was overlooked so easily, and there's not even an explanation for his absence, just " the only player to qualify from WCS KR not on the list ". Why isn't he on the list? It deserves an explanation. edit: it seems the OP was edited
Hero has been doing well in Proleague but his WCS AM championship was rather unimpressive, he lost 2 maps to Revival who was on a 10 game losing streak in Proleague until very recently. I mean, if someone like Revival can make the finals in WCS AM It's not a tournament worth talking about when we figure out who the 10 best players in the world are.
Mvp has played in basically nothing other than WCS EU where he did win in dominating fashion(other than losing to Lucifron) after the offline phase started, but It's still WCS EU, It's not comparable to WCS KR. He played a grand total of 0 Koreans, although the non Koreans were good players they're still non Koreans.
That isn't Objectively at all, that is just your opinion buddy, I don't know how you can pretend otherwise. Looking at the players Losira beat recently (TRUE (x2), Soo, Gumiho, Bomber) compared to HerO (herO, Jangbi, Roro, Flash, Alicia, Ryung, Revival, decent foreigners) how can you say that Losira's results are objectively better during this period?
I weigh GSL results more than Proleague, Other than Flash and Roro the caliber of players they played is about the same. I say objectively because I am a big fan of both Hero and Mvp so I'm looking outside of my own bias.
WCS AM and EU results are worth almost nothing in relation to a Power Rank of the top 10 players in the world, if Hero were to deserve a spot on the ranking it would have to be almost entirely from his Proleague results, which are good but not as good as some other players who are not on the list. Zest from KT comes to mind immediately, TY from Team 8 as well.
I think too much weight is put on WCS AM & EU, Mvp shouldn't be #11, part of that is probably because It's Mvp but I don't think you should place players on faith alone. This would have been a lot easier to do had the list come out after the season finals, we'll see who is right soon enough.
Hm okay my bad, I thought you were only comparing HerO, MVP and Losira. Even still, I would argue that first in AM and a decent Proleague record to back it up is better than eighth in KR and at least comparable to a superior Proleague record. I honestly think you are weighting GSL ranks too highly and EU/AM too low, don't get me wrong I do agree with your ordering of preference, but I disagree with the margin of difference, hence why your opinion is still only Subjective, since its based on how you choose to weight the different leagues.
I'll concede that point, you're right. My tournament weights are subjective and everyone's will be different. Maybe I'm not giving enough respect to WCS AM & EU, but Revival making the finals in WCS AM with his 5-14 record and recent 10 game losing streak in Proleague makes it hard for me to take the tournament seriously. Mvp did dominate the ro8 onward in WCS EU, but It's hard to say how much that really means because while TLO, Dimaga and Stephano are amazing players, how good are they compared to the players the Korean representatives have been playing against? The answer isn't clear because foreigners have almost no chance to play against Kespa players since MLG 3 days after HotS launch. Maybe the gap is closer than I think? Like I said we'll find out soon.
Cheers, you do make fair points though. I am probably just putting more weight in my faith in HerO and Mvp, though there is a good chance that I will be disappointed. The main thing I took out of EU with respect to Mvp is that he is still shaky in group stages, though as usual he fared a lot better in the BoX series, so I'm hoping that if he can make it through the group stages that his great preparation skills should give him a decent shot. As for HerO I honestly just love his play style and I feel that if he doesn't choke then he has a fighting chance in any tournament.
On June 05 2013 12:07 snakeeyez wrote: I would ask though why is immvp not higher considering he is arguably the most accomplished player in SC 2 and even recently made EU wcs.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. No one is wrong for something subjective as this. Keep that in mind. Also, because you think a certain way, doesnt mean the claim holds true and everyone else is wrong.
There's a lot of bias, a lot of finger pointing in this thread. Not really necessary Cool Power rank though. The 10 more notable names are recognized.
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Yea you are missing something here.
Let's say that there are two players playing against each other, a zerg and a terran (we'll call them Zerg and Terran). Zerg wins, and barely. According to you, that makes him better. But what if Zerg is really bad at zvp and zvz, and Terran is really good in all his other matchups?
What if styles are just weird in this matchup, and Zerg can beat Terran, but has a really poor record otherwise? Say that Zerg, outside of this matchup, has a 40% win ratio, and Terran has a 75% win ratio? The better player is obviously Terran here, even if he did just lose to Zerg.
A heads up game doesn't decide who the better player is. Introduce Protoss. He beats Zerg. But Terran beats him! Now who's the best player out of the three? Obviously Protoss! He beat Zerg, who was the better player beforehand. Which means that Terran is now the best player, because he beat Protoss! And off we go into Wonderland.
On June 05 2013 12:06 Popkiller wrote: Innovation's road to the GSL finals was harder, his Proleague stats are better, he's better.
Soulkey was just better that one night and edged out a win in a best of seven that made neither player look like a champion. Also consider that SK's semi-final match was another seven game series full of bad play...
Honestly it all comes down to this weekend, though. If Soulkey wins again I'll give more credit.
Sorry, you were right till that point. Soulkey when 3 games down in a final has shown he has nerves of titanium. That is what made him the champion where innovation was clearly tilting.
On June 05 2013 09:16 Scville wrote: Why Hero > Kangho and MVP?
Kangho almost won vs SoS and he 3-0'ed Bomber
I know, Hero is from teamliquid but come on lol, no way he is the 10th best player in the world.
''Life's only results this month were losing to NAKSEO in the GSTL and 2 - 0ing MarineKing in GSL. (But at this point, is 2 - 0ing MarineKing in ZvT really an accomplishment?)''
Of course, Life didn't play anything else.
Kangho had a very easy path to the ro8 and his games were honestly not that great... did you actually watch the sOs vs kangho games? They were disgusting.
Maybe I'm being a bit harsh but I wouldn't even have put sOs on the power rankings here, probably slipping mvp in instead. sOs may have beaten higher caliber players but his play is just... I mean, dt into chargelot archon allins pvz? Hiding voids in your nat and hoping zerg doesnt scout so you can just waltz into his base and kill his lair? This feels like shitty ladder play, not what I expect in code s.
Worse still might be that kangho actually lost to one of those archon all-ins. Yeah, I think there's good reason he's not on here.
On June 05 2013 12:06 Popkiller wrote: Innovation's road to the GSL finals was harder, his Proleague stats are better, he's better.
Soulkey was just better that one night and edged out a win in a best of seven that made neither player look like a champion. Also consider that SK's semi-final match was another seven game series full of bad play...
Honestly it all comes down to this weekend, though. If Soulkey wins again I'll give more credit.
Bingo. Let me ask this though if immvp was the best not that long ago what evidence do we have that he is now inferior in skill to this current list? He just won EU wcs so that is some evidence he is still top player
On June 05 2013 10:27 takingbackoj wrote: Soulkey beat Innovation heads up. Facts say Soulkey is better.
What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Yea you are missing something here.
Let's say that there are two players playing against each other, a zerg and a terran (we'll call them Zerg and Terran). Zerg wins, and barely. According to you, that makes him better. But what if Zerg is really bad at zvp and zvz, and Terran is really good in all his other matchups?
What if styles are just weird in this matchup, and Zerg can beat Terran, but has a really poor record otherwise? Say that Zerg, outside of this matchup, has a 40% win ratio, and Terran has a 75% win ratio? The better player is obviously Terran here, even if he did just lose to Zerg.
A heads up game doesn't decide who the better player is. Introduce Protoss. He beats Zerg. But Terran beats him! Now who's the best player out of the three? Obviously Protoss! He beat Zerg, who was the better player beforehand. Which means that Terran is now the best player, because he beat Protoss! And off we go into Wonderland.
It can't work that way.
The better example would be. Let's say Soulkey and Innovation played in the SPL. And then the following day in the GSL.
So let's say Soulkey beat Innovation in the Ace Match. According to takingbackoj's logic, Soulkey is the better player. Then the following day, Innovation beat Soulkey in the GSL. In a span of a day, now according to takingbackoj's logic, Innovation is the better player. See how flawed it is?
When you take into consideration who's the "Better" player, you have to take into consideration variance, sample size and how they fair against the rest of the competition.
As for the NBA comparison...hmm the better example would be.. Charlotte Bobcats vs Miami Heat in a home/home series. Miami demolishes Charlotte @ Miami. So Miami is the better team. The next night, Charlotte beats Mami. So now Charlotte is all of a sudden the better of the two?
On June 05 2013 11:32 takingbackoj wrote: [quote] Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Ok, take this situation. x player is 100-0 in Proleague. y player is 0-100 in Proleague against the same players. They play a series, and y wins 4-3. Is y the better player now?
Valid argument and I see your point. I guess I read the rankings under the assumption that the individual league took precedence over the team league. But I don't think Soulkey's Proleague performance is so much worse than Innovations to trump his individual win against him for the WCS KR title.
Looking at round 5 which was basically the month of may Soulkey: 5-4 Innovation: 11-3 Depends on who you subjectively weight each league
Good point. Without knowing that I can't really say whether the ranking makes sense or not.
You can look just look at Code S too. Soulkey: 19-12 against Maru, Flying, Yoda, Parting, sOs, Innovation Innovation: 19-7 against Rain, Hyun, Flash, Life, RorO, Symbol, Soulkey If you only know this and do not know who won the tournament tell me who looks better on paper.
Winning GSL is definitely a huge accomplishment. Soulkey may be more skilled than Innovation but he doesn't show it nearly as much as Innovation showed in his matches.
Another good point. If I looked at that I would go with Innovation. But I believe in weighing heads up more than record during tournament. I guess it all comes down to preference.
On June 05 2013 10:28 Emzeeshady wrote: [quote] What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Yea you are missing something here.
Let's say that there are two players playing against each other, a zerg and a terran (we'll call them Zerg and Terran). Zerg wins, and barely. According to you, that makes him better. But what if Zerg is really bad at zvp and zvz, and Terran is really good in all his other matchups?
What if styles are just weird in this matchup, and Zerg can beat Terran, but has a really poor record otherwise? Say that Zerg, outside of this matchup, has a 40% win ratio, and Terran has a 75% win ratio? The better player is obviously Terran here, even if he did just lose to Zerg.
A heads up game doesn't decide who the better player is. Introduce Protoss. He beats Zerg. But Terran beats him! Now who's the best player out of the three? Obviously Protoss! He beat Zerg, who was the better player beforehand. Which means that Terran is now the best player, because he beat Protoss! And off we go into Wonderland.
It can't work that way.
The better example would be. Let's say Soulkey and Innovation played in the SPL. And then the following day in the GSL.
So let's say Soulkey beat Innovation in the Ace Match. According to takingbackoj's logic, Soulkey is the better player. Then the following day, Innovation beat Soulkey in the GSL. In a span of a day, now according to takingbackoj's logic, Innovation is the better player. See how flawed it is?
When you take into consideration who's the "Better" player, you have to take into consideration variance, sample size and how they fair against the rest of the competition.
As for the NBA comparison...hmm the better example would be.. Charlotte Bobcats vs Miami Heat in a home/home series. Miami demolishes Charlotte @ Miami. So Miami is the better team. The next night, Charlotte beats Mami. So now Charlotte is all of a sudden the better of the two?
Flawed analogy. The winner of the championship game of any competition (NBA, NFL, etc.) is generally considered the best team of that season. The 'best' competition in SC2 currently is GSL and Soulkey just won it.
I don't see how people have such a troubles with the whole 'WHICH PLAYER IS BETTER" concept. The power ranks are fun. Great read, an interesting perspective. However why is it that you can't just clump players together and just call them S Class Players, then the mediocre bunch, call them A Class and so on. GSL was formulated upon this concept.
Between the players the likes of Rain, Flash, SK, Innovation, Life, Parting Roro, no one really stands out more than the other. Life, Rain and Roro has past accomplishments Parting, Flash SK and INnovation has recent accomplishments. But its difficult to state one player has separate from the pack. Unlike MVP where he demolished everyone in WoL for months or in BW where Bisu/JD/Flash had their own reign of terror. You don't see that in HoTS quite yet.
What a terrible list. How someone performs in a best of 3 is more important than being the best player in sc2 history and winning a major championship apparently. Rain at this point is a top protoss..but strongly questionabel to give him such an edge over the others... i just dont know I cant see how you can justify leaving MVP off this list in any scenario. At least you got the Top 3 correct.
On June 05 2013 09:16 Scville wrote: Why Hero > Kangho and MVP?
Kangho almost won vs SoS and he 3-0'ed Bomber
I know, Hero is from teamliquid but come on lol, no way he is the 10th best player in the world.
''Life's only results this month were losing to NAKSEO in the GSTL and 2 - 0ing MarineKing in GSL. (But at this point, is 2 - 0ing MarineKing in ZvT really an accomplishment?)''
Of course, Life didn't play anything else.
Kangho had a very easy path to the ro8 and his games were honestly not that great... did you actually watch the sOs vs kangho games? They were disgusting.
Maybe I'm being a bit harsh but I wouldn't even have put sOs on the power rankings here, probably slipping mvp in instead. sOs may have beaten higher caliber players but his play is just... I mean, dt into chargelot archon allins pvz? Hiding voids in your nat and hoping zerg doesnt scout so you can just waltz into his base and kill his lair? This feels like shitty ladder play, not what I expect in code s.
Worse still might be that kangho actually lost to one of those archon all-ins. Yeah, I think there's good reason he's not on here.
???
sOs was kicking quite a lot of ass in proleague over round 4 and 5 from what I recall. His ro32 and ro16 was also pretty solid with some cool mindgames. He was definitely overrated by Artosis and a lot of people, but he deserves his spot nonetheless. He also won that Asian Indoor tournament on the side against a lot of good players.
The DT/charlot/archon attack I'd imagine was to meta the 2-base +1/+1 ling into ultra ZvP we've been seeing a lot of as of late. Losira caught on though. The void game was totally retarded and shouldn't have worked I'll admit.
Losira has a respectable run, not great but still a level above what HerO and MVP dished out. He did also dominate Bomber with a 3-0. Still, I'd place HerO above Losira only because he also has his proleague performace. Losira definitely beats out MVP though in my book.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Ok, take this situation. x player is 100-0 in Proleague. y player is 0-100 in Proleague against the same players. They play a series, and y wins 4-3. Is y the better player now?
Valid argument and I see your point. I guess I read the rankings under the assumption that the individual league took precedence over the team league. But I don't think Soulkey's Proleague performance is so much worse than Innovations to trump his individual win against him for the WCS KR title.
Looking at round 5 which was basically the month of may Soulkey: 5-4 Innovation: 11-3 Depends on who you subjectively weight each league
Good point. Without knowing that I can't really say whether the ranking makes sense or not.
You can look just look at Code S too. Soulkey: 19-12 against Maru, Flying, Yoda, Parting, sOs, Innovation Innovation: 19-7 against Rain, Hyun, Flash, Life, RorO, Symbol, Soulkey If you only know this and do not know who won the tournament tell me who looks better on paper.
Winning GSL is definitely a huge accomplishment. Soulkey may be more skilled than Innovation but he doesn't show it nearly as much as Innovation showed in his matches.
Another good point. If I looked at that I would go with Innovation. But I believe in weighing heads up more than record during tournament. I guess it all comes down to preference.
On June 05 2013 12:22 Irre wrote: What a terrible list. How someone performs in a best of 3 is more important than being the best player in sc2 history and winning a major championship apparently. Rain at this point is a top protoss..but strongly questionabel to give him such an edge over the others... i just dont know I cant see how you can justify leaving MVP off this list in any scenario. At least you got the Top 3 correct.
By that logic, we should remove Flash since most of his performance came from best of 1 games...
On June 05 2013 10:28 Emzeeshady wrote: [quote] What kind of terrible flawed logic is this?
Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Yea you are missing something here.
Let's say that there are two players playing against each other, a zerg and a terran (we'll call them Zerg and Terran). Zerg wins, and barely. According to you, that makes him better. But what if Zerg is really bad at zvp and zvz, and Terran is really good in all his other matchups?
What if styles are just weird in this matchup, and Zerg can beat Terran, but has a really poor record otherwise? Say that Zerg, outside of this matchup, has a 40% win ratio, and Terran has a 75% win ratio? The better player is obviously Terran here, even if he did just lose to Zerg.
A heads up game doesn't decide who the better player is. Introduce Protoss. He beats Zerg. But Terran beats him! Now who's the best player out of the three? Obviously Protoss! He beat Zerg, who was the better player beforehand. Which means that Terran is now the best player, because he beat Protoss! And off we go into Wonderland.
It can't work that way.
The better example would be. Let's say Soulkey and Innovation played in the SPL. And then the following day in the GSL.
So let's say Soulkey beat Innovation in the Ace Match. According to takingbackoj's logic, Soulkey is the better player. Then the following day, Innovation beat Soulkey in the GSL. In a span of a day, now according to takingbackoj's logic, Innovation is the better player. See how flawed it is?
When you take into consideration who's the "Better" player, you have to take into consideration variance, sample size and how they fair against the rest of the competition.
As for the NBA comparison...hmm the better example would be.. Charlotte Bobcats vs Miami Heat in a home/home series. Miami demolishes Charlotte @ Miami. So Miami is the better team. The next night, Charlotte beats Mami. So now Charlotte is all of a sudden the better of the two?
Well this is my basic thought process here. When ranking players or teams or whatever, you go with the evidence presented. If someone beats someone else in a competition, I will weigh that heavier than what those two opponents did elsewhere particularly if its a best of 7 series and particularly if the winner also won the finals or its equivalent.
Im not just looking at that one series though. Im looking at the fact that Soulkey beat other top opponents on the way. Im looking at how Soulkey commonly competes and often times beats other top tier players as well. In my opinion, there is no better litmus test than heads up. That is the closest thing their is to deciding whos better. Is it full proof? No but is it better than assessing their other matches and pretty much guessing which one has beat better players.
To put it more plainly, if someone tells me David beat Jeff at SC2 but lost to Eric, im going to assume Eric is better than David regardless of Jeffs talent. When asking yourself who is better in any competition aren't you really asking who would win between the two? Soulkey won in a best of 7. That might not tell the whole story but that is pretty damning evidence to support Soulkey being better and for me to believe otherwise, I would have to see equally damning evidence to dispute it.
On June 05 2013 11:03 takingbackoj wrote: [quote] Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Yea you are missing something here.
Let's say that there are two players playing against each other, a zerg and a terran (we'll call them Zerg and Terran). Zerg wins, and barely. According to you, that makes him better. But what if Zerg is really bad at zvp and zvz, and Terran is really good in all his other matchups?
What if styles are just weird in this matchup, and Zerg can beat Terran, but has a really poor record otherwise? Say that Zerg, outside of this matchup, has a 40% win ratio, and Terran has a 75% win ratio? The better player is obviously Terran here, even if he did just lose to Zerg.
A heads up game doesn't decide who the better player is. Introduce Protoss. He beats Zerg. But Terran beats him! Now who's the best player out of the three? Obviously Protoss! He beat Zerg, who was the better player beforehand. Which means that Terran is now the best player, because he beat Protoss! And off we go into Wonderland.
It can't work that way.
The better example would be. Let's say Soulkey and Innovation played in the SPL. And then the following day in the GSL.
So let's say Soulkey beat Innovation in the Ace Match. According to takingbackoj's logic, Soulkey is the better player. Then the following day, Innovation beat Soulkey in the GSL. In a span of a day, now according to takingbackoj's logic, Innovation is the better player. See how flawed it is?
When you take into consideration who's the "Better" player, you have to take into consideration variance, sample size and how they fair against the rest of the competition.
As for the NBA comparison...hmm the better example would be.. Charlotte Bobcats vs Miami Heat in a home/home series. Miami demolishes Charlotte @ Miami. So Miami is the better team. The next night, Charlotte beats Mami. So now Charlotte is all of a sudden the better of the two?
Flawed analogy. The winner of the championship game of any competition (NBA, NFL, etc.) is generally considered the best team of that season. The 'best' competition in SC2 currently is GSL and Soulkey just won it.
That's because in the NBA, NFL, NHL, etc, that's all you have to base it on. You get that one series, then the rosters change and things are different the next year. Not at ALL the same as Starcraft, where you're playing in multiple leagues at the same time and there are a lot more results to base things off of.
On June 05 2013 11:03 takingbackoj wrote: [quote] Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Yea you are missing something here.
Let's say that there are two players playing against each other, a zerg and a terran (we'll call them Zerg and Terran). Zerg wins, and barely. According to you, that makes him better. But what if Zerg is really bad at zvp and zvz, and Terran is really good in all his other matchups?
What if styles are just weird in this matchup, and Zerg can beat Terran, but has a really poor record otherwise? Say that Zerg, outside of this matchup, has a 40% win ratio, and Terran has a 75% win ratio? The better player is obviously Terran here, even if he did just lose to Zerg.
A heads up game doesn't decide who the better player is. Introduce Protoss. He beats Zerg. But Terran beats him! Now who's the best player out of the three? Obviously Protoss! He beat Zerg, who was the better player beforehand. Which means that Terran is now the best player, because he beat Protoss! And off we go into Wonderland.
It can't work that way.
The better example would be. Let's say Soulkey and Innovation played in the SPL. And then the following day in the GSL.
So let's say Soulkey beat Innovation in the Ace Match. According to takingbackoj's logic, Soulkey is the better player. Then the following day, Innovation beat Soulkey in the GSL. In a span of a day, now according to takingbackoj's logic, Innovation is the better player. See how flawed it is?
When you take into consideration who's the "Better" player, you have to take into consideration variance, sample size and how they fair against the rest of the competition.
As for the NBA comparison...hmm the better example would be.. Charlotte Bobcats vs Miami Heat in a home/home series. Miami demolishes Charlotte @ Miami. So Miami is the better team. The next night, Charlotte beats Mami. So now Charlotte is all of a sudden the better of the two?
Flawed analogy. The winner of the championship game of any competition (NBA, NFL, etc.) is generally considered the best team of that season. The 'best' competition in SC2 currently is GSL and Soulkey just won it.
I'm not sure about it being flawed. If you're following the conversation, there's more to it than that. As for your response. Yes and no. In the NBA the winning team has a lot of luck (injuries, match ups, outliers) that come into play in order to take the final series. When the Miami Heat did NOT win the championship two years ago with Lebron/Bosh/Wade, does it clearly LA Lakers were better? I dont know about that. A lot of people would argue it.
Going into the offseason and into the new season as well. Unless a team is TRULY dominant ala the Laker's 16-1 campaign + reign, The Boston Celtics historical run with Russell, its more accurate to group teams in tiers because the elite teams are on similar levels.
On June 05 2013 12:06 Popkiller wrote: Innovation's road to the GSL finals was harder, his Proleague stats are better, he's better.
Soulkey was just better that one night and edged out a win in a best of seven that made neither player look like a champion. Also consider that SK's semi-final match was another seven game series full of bad play...
Honestly it all comes down to this weekend, though. If Soulkey wins again I'll give more credit.
Bingo. Let me ask this though if immvp was the best not that long ago what evidence do we have that he is now inferior in skill to this current list? He just won EU wcs so that is some evidence he is still top player
Like... Eight months ago? And then at the end of WoL went 1-18 in Korea? Beating foreigners is not enough.
On June 05 2013 11:03 takingbackoj wrote: [quote] Yeah it's kind of puzzling how that was decided. I could see if Soulkey beat Innovation and then didn't go on to win WCS KR, then I might be able to see an argument. But since that was the finals, I am not sure how you can say the guy that beat Innovation and won the tourney is not better than Innovation. Strange.
I also agree with those puzzled about Hero being #10. I like the guy but he's not top 10. Seems like he got the Liquid bump.
Any who, as an NFL fan I love Power Rankings as much as I loathe Power Rankings. They never seem to make sense to anyone other than the person who makes them but its fun to insult the rankers logic.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Yea you are missing something here.
Let's say that there are two players playing against each other, a zerg and a terran (we'll call them Zerg and Terran). Zerg wins, and barely. According to you, that makes him better. But what if Zerg is really bad at zvp and zvz, and Terran is really good in all his other matchups?
What if styles are just weird in this matchup, and Zerg can beat Terran, but has a really poor record otherwise? Say that Zerg, outside of this matchup, has a 40% win ratio, and Terran has a 75% win ratio? The better player is obviously Terran here, even if he did just lose to Zerg.
A heads up game doesn't decide who the better player is. Introduce Protoss. He beats Zerg. But Terran beats him! Now who's the best player out of the three? Obviously Protoss! He beat Zerg, who was the better player beforehand. Which means that Terran is now the best player, because he beat Protoss! And off we go into Wonderland.
It can't work that way.
The better example would be. Let's say Soulkey and Innovation played in the SPL. And then the following day in the GSL.
So let's say Soulkey beat Innovation in the Ace Match. According to takingbackoj's logic, Soulkey is the better player. Then the following day, Innovation beat Soulkey in the GSL. In a span of a day, now according to takingbackoj's logic, Innovation is the better player. See how flawed it is?
When you take into consideration who's the "Better" player, you have to take into consideration variance, sample size and how they fair against the rest of the competition.
As for the NBA comparison...hmm the better example would be.. Charlotte Bobcats vs Miami Heat in a home/home series. Miami demolishes Charlotte @ Miami. So Miami is the better team. The next night, Charlotte beats Mami. So now Charlotte is all of a sudden the better of the two?
Well this is my basic thought process here. When ranking players or teams or whatever, you go with the evidence presented. If someone beats someone else in a competition, I will weigh that heavier than what those two opponents did elsewhere particularly if its a best of 7 series and particularly if the winner also won the finals or its equivalent.
Im not just looking at that one series though. Im looking at the fact that Soulkey beat other top opponents on the way. Im looking at how Soulkey commonly competes and often times beats other top tier players as well. In my opinion, there is no better litmus test than heads up. That is the closest thing their is to deciding whos better. Is it full proof? No but is it better than assessing their other matches and pretty much guessing which one has beat better players.
To put it more plainly, if someone tells me David beat Jeff at SC2 but lost to Eric, im going to assume Eric is better than David regardless of Jeffs talent. When asking yourself who is better in any competition aren't you really asking who would win between the two? Soulkey won in a best of 7. That might not tell the whole story but that is pretty damning evidence to support Soulkey being better and for me to believe otherwise, I would have to see equally damning evidence to dispute it.
On 5-4 record of Innovation and Soulkey, can you really boldly state and have the majority agree with you that Soulkey is clearly the better of the two, especially when there's a 1 win difference?
The whole x beat y but lose to z, so z > y is flawed. Flash has a better head to head vs Innovation AND Soulkey. Life has the better head to head vs Flash. Innovation has the better head to head vs Life. And Soulkey has the better head to head vs Innovation. partinG has the better head to head vs Flash
According tho this..it would be.. Parting > Flash > Soulkey > Innovation > Life > Flash...you end up back in square 1 hmm...
There is no clear "x beat y but lost to z, so z > y" going on here. It's more tier based.
On June 05 2013 09:16 Arisen wrote: i disagree with soulkey vs innovation. People dick ride innovation way to hard. I think soulkey justified himself as a really great player under pressure and innovation proved that he needs to work on that part of his game. Innovation might have looked more dominant in the games he won, but I think soulkey proved to be the better all around player
^This. This this this. Innovation may be able to win in an all out macro game most of the time, but that doesn't by any means mean that he is a better player. I think that what is even more impressive was the comeback, no ordinary player, and not Innovation, would be able to have held his cool. In the previous GSL matches with Innovation, he never was actually tested by being down in a series, or by having early pressure applied to the extend Soulkey did. If Innovation were to work on reacting to early pressure, then perhaps I would understand putting him as #1. rOrO's games were mostly macro oriented, and the games Innovation lost to Soulkey were early pressure.
Also as a zerg player, I feel like zerg is still a bit underpowered. Yes, I know that a zerg just won GSL again, but the overall tournament winrates state otherwise.
Also, I would like to see matches between Losira/Kangho, HerO, and Mvp, because that is an extremely close call imo. Normally I would say HerO would lose, but he has been doing great recently.
I am a massive Soulkey fanboy and I find the write-up for him at #2 absolutely terrible. I don't care where he's ranked in this power ranking to be honest, it doesn't mean anything and he won the title that actual matters. However, it seems the writer of this power ranking didn't follow the BW scene at all because otherwise he would have known that Soulkey was one of the best proleague players in the world in both Bw and the Bw/Sc2 league, was just starting to get deep in individual tournaments, and was really impressing people with some innovative ZvT. He was one of the best Zergs from Kespa in the switch to WoL, and he's proven (in my fanboy eyes anyways) to be the best Kespa Zerg (if not Zerg period) in HotS. Trying to discredit this guy and compare him to jjakji (who hadn't been around dominating for two years before his title like Soulkey has been), Sniper, and the other guy shows a lack of knowledge and seems sort of silly.
But it doesn't really matter, no one can stop the neo G. Soulkey train!!! CHOO CHOO.
On June 05 2013 12:06 Popkiller wrote: Innovation's road to the GSL finals was harder, his Proleague stats are better, he's better.
Soulkey was just better that one night and edged out a win in a best of seven that made neither player look like a champion. Also consider that SK's semi-final match was another seven game series full of bad play...
Honestly it all comes down to this weekend, though. If Soulkey wins again I'll give more credit.
Bingo. Let me ask this though if immvp was the best not that long ago what evidence do we have that he is now inferior in skill to this current list? He just won EU wcs so that is some evidence he is still top player
Like... Eight months ago? And then at the end of WoL went 1-18 in Korea? Beating foreigners is not enough.
This and the fact that you looked at his play and can you honestly state that he's looked as brilliant as some of the performances by the top crop of players? No doubt Mvp is still a great player but I'm not sure you can put him in the same tier as the other top players. Mvp has done nothing for LG-IM in GST, he was in Code B when he transferred to europe and he was completely outclassed when he was taken out of Code S. There's some strong arguments suggesting this claim..
Soulkey fumbled to a championship? Did I seriously just heard this? And comparing him to Jiakji,Seed. lol.
SK has been consistently performing well in GSL pre-HotS( 2 times Ro8) and during HotS. If you look at his track record, SK has been steadily improving.
0-3 to 4-3 against best RTS player of all-time. Yup, He clearly fumbled his way to a championship.
Winning a series doesn't automatically make you the better player, regardless of how important that series is. That is flawed logic.
Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Yea you are missing something here.
Let's say that there are two players playing against each other, a zerg and a terran (we'll call them Zerg and Terran). Zerg wins, and barely. According to you, that makes him better. But what if Zerg is really bad at zvp and zvz, and Terran is really good in all his other matchups?
What if styles are just weird in this matchup, and Zerg can beat Terran, but has a really poor record otherwise? Say that Zerg, outside of this matchup, has a 40% win ratio, and Terran has a 75% win ratio? The better player is obviously Terran here, even if he did just lose to Zerg.
A heads up game doesn't decide who the better player is. Introduce Protoss. He beats Zerg. But Terran beats him! Now who's the best player out of the three? Obviously Protoss! He beat Zerg, who was the better player beforehand. Which means that Terran is now the best player, because he beat Protoss! And off we go into Wonderland.
It can't work that way.
The better example would be. Let's say Soulkey and Innovation played in the SPL. And then the following day in the GSL.
So let's say Soulkey beat Innovation in the Ace Match. According to takingbackoj's logic, Soulkey is the better player. Then the following day, Innovation beat Soulkey in the GSL. In a span of a day, now according to takingbackoj's logic, Innovation is the better player. See how flawed it is?
When you take into consideration who's the "Better" player, you have to take into consideration variance, sample size and how they fair against the rest of the competition.
As for the NBA comparison...hmm the better example would be.. Charlotte Bobcats vs Miami Heat in a home/home series. Miami demolishes Charlotte @ Miami. So Miami is the better team. The next night, Charlotte beats Mami. So now Charlotte is all of a sudden the better of the two?
Well this is my basic thought process here. When ranking players or teams or whatever, you go with the evidence presented. If someone beats someone else in a competition, I will weigh that heavier than what those two opponents did elsewhere particularly if its a best of 7 series and particularly if the winner also won the finals or its equivalent.
Im not just looking at that one series though. Im looking at the fact that Soulkey beat other top opponents on the way. Im looking at how Soulkey commonly competes and often times beats other top tier players as well. In my opinion, there is no better litmus test than heads up. That is the closest thing their is to deciding whos better. Is it full proof? No but is it better than assessing their other matches and pretty much guessing which one has beat better players.
To put it more plainly, if someone tells me David beat Jeff at SC2 but lost to Eric, im going to assume Eric is better than David regardless of Jeffs talent. When asking yourself who is better in any competition aren't you really asking who would win between the two? Soulkey won in a best of 7. That might not tell the whole story but that is pretty damning evidence to support Soulkey being better and for me to believe otherwise, I would have to see equally damning evidence to dispute it.
On 5-4 record of Innovation and Soulkey, can you really boldly state and have the majority agree with you that Soulkey is clearly the better of the two, especially when there's a 1 win difference?
The whole x beat y but lose to z, so z > y is flawed. Flash has a better head to head vs Innovation AND Soulkey. Life has the better head to head vs Flash. Innovation has the better head to head vs Life. And Soulkey has the better head to head vs Innovation. partinG has the better head to head vs Flash
According tho this..it would be.. Parting > Flash > Soulkey > Innovation > Life > Flash...you end up back in square 1 hmm...
There is no clear "x beat y but lost to z, so z > y" going on here. It's more tier based.
Well like I said, what argument for Innovation being better should outweigh his loss to Soulkey? Shouldn't heads up and major tournament wins be the most important values when judging which player is better than another? Soulkey has him on both in HotS. Is he definitely better than Innovation? No, can't ever be 100% positive. But if you wanted to go that route then you can't be 100% sure any player is better than any other player really.
Soulkey has the major tournament win, he beat Innovation heads up in a best of 7 on the way. Innovation has a better pro league record and won more maps on his way to losing WCS KR, the same WCS KR that Soulkey won. I mean weighing those facts, I think Soulkey has earned the top spot.
On June 05 2013 12:46 Witten wrote: I am a massive Soulkey fanboy and I find the write-up for him at #2 absolutely terrible. I don't care where he's ranked in this power ranking to be honest, it doesn't mean anything and he won the title that actual matters. However, it seems the writer of this power ranking didn't follow the BW scene at all because otherwise he would have known that Soulkey was one of the best proleague players in the world in both Bw and the Bw/Sc2 league, was just starting to get deep in individual tournaments, and was really impressing people with some innovative ZvT. He was one of the best Zergs from Kespa in the switch to WoL, and he's proven (in my fanboy eyes anyways) to be the best Kespa Zerg (if not Zerg period) in HotS. Trying to discredit this guy and compare him to jjakji (who hadn't been around dominating for two years before his title like Soulkey has been), Sniper, and the other guy shows a lack of knowledge and seems sort of silly.
But it doesn't really matter, no one can stop the neo G. Soulkey train!!! CHOO CHOO.
I followed the BW scene about as much as you could follow it. I'm actually of the opinion that Soulkey is the real deal. It was never said that he was on the same level as jjakji, but rather that is ambiguous in which category he belongs in. This is mainly to justify the 2nd place placement.
Soulkey fumbled to a championship? Did I seriously just heard this? And comparing him to Jiakji,Seed. lol.
SK has been consistently performing well in GSL pre-HotS( 2 times Ro8) and during HotS. If you look at his track record, SK has been steadily improving.
0-3 to 4-3 against best RTS player of all-time. Yup, He clearly fumbled his way to a championship.
The amount of bias is just meh.
I'm a Soulkey fan but I do feel he sort of fumbled into the finals when he should have went into it cleanly. Both times against Parting and sOs he had them against the ropes and made some stupid mistakes that allowed them to tie up the series. Watching those games live made me question his ability somewhat. These games make me question whether he is really championship material. He proved himself in the finals but I am not too sure he could have done it against someone who was more experienced than Innovation. I hope he can win at the WCS Finals in a more convincing fashion. That will purge any doubts anyone has of him.
Can't tell if you're serious about best RTS player of all-time.. best RTS player of all-time does not lose from a 3-0 lead in a bo7 when he is in his prime.
On June 05 2013 11:32 takingbackoj wrote: [quote] Flawed logic? It's the only sound logic there is. Everything else is based on opinion. Playing someone heads up is the best way to determine whos better.
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Yea you are missing something here.
Let's say that there are two players playing against each other, a zerg and a terran (we'll call them Zerg and Terran). Zerg wins, and barely. According to you, that makes him better. But what if Zerg is really bad at zvp and zvz, and Terran is really good in all his other matchups?
What if styles are just weird in this matchup, and Zerg can beat Terran, but has a really poor record otherwise? Say that Zerg, outside of this matchup, has a 40% win ratio, and Terran has a 75% win ratio? The better player is obviously Terran here, even if he did just lose to Zerg.
A heads up game doesn't decide who the better player is. Introduce Protoss. He beats Zerg. But Terran beats him! Now who's the best player out of the three? Obviously Protoss! He beat Zerg, who was the better player beforehand. Which means that Terran is now the best player, because he beat Protoss! And off we go into Wonderland.
It can't work that way.
The better example would be. Let's say Soulkey and Innovation played in the SPL. And then the following day in the GSL.
So let's say Soulkey beat Innovation in the Ace Match. According to takingbackoj's logic, Soulkey is the better player. Then the following day, Innovation beat Soulkey in the GSL. In a span of a day, now according to takingbackoj's logic, Innovation is the better player. See how flawed it is?
When you take into consideration who's the "Better" player, you have to take into consideration variance, sample size and how they fair against the rest of the competition.
As for the NBA comparison...hmm the better example would be.. Charlotte Bobcats vs Miami Heat in a home/home series. Miami demolishes Charlotte @ Miami. So Miami is the better team. The next night, Charlotte beats Mami. So now Charlotte is all of a sudden the better of the two?
Well this is my basic thought process here. When ranking players or teams or whatever, you go with the evidence presented. If someone beats someone else in a competition, I will weigh that heavier than what those two opponents did elsewhere particularly if its a best of 7 series and particularly if the winner also won the finals or its equivalent.
Im not just looking at that one series though. Im looking at the fact that Soulkey beat other top opponents on the way. Im looking at how Soulkey commonly competes and often times beats other top tier players as well. In my opinion, there is no better litmus test than heads up. That is the closest thing their is to deciding whos better. Is it full proof? No but is it better than assessing their other matches and pretty much guessing which one has beat better players.
To put it more plainly, if someone tells me David beat Jeff at SC2 but lost to Eric, im going to assume Eric is better than David regardless of Jeffs talent. When asking yourself who is better in any competition aren't you really asking who would win between the two? Soulkey won in a best of 7. That might not tell the whole story but that is pretty damning evidence to support Soulkey being better and for me to believe otherwise, I would have to see equally damning evidence to dispute it.
On 5-4 record of Innovation and Soulkey, can you really boldly state and have the majority agree with you that Soulkey is clearly the better of the two, especially when there's a 1 win difference?
The whole x beat y but lose to z, so z > y is flawed. Flash has a better head to head vs Innovation AND Soulkey. Life has the better head to head vs Flash. Innovation has the better head to head vs Life. And Soulkey has the better head to head vs Innovation. partinG has the better head to head vs Flash
According tho this..it would be.. Parting > Flash > Soulkey > Innovation > Life > Flash...you end up back in square 1 hmm...
There is no clear "x beat y but lost to z, so z > y" going on here. It's more tier based.
Well like I said, what argument for Innovation being better should outweigh his loss to Soulkey? Shouldn't heads up and major tournament wins be the most important values when judging which player is better than another? Soulkey has him on both in HotS. Is he definitely better than Innovation? No, can't ever be 100% positive. But if you wanted to go that route then you can't be 100% sure any player is better than any other player really.
Soulkey has the major tournament win, he beat Innovation heads up in a best of 7 on the way. Innovation has a better pro league record and won more maps on his way to losing WCS KR, the same WCS KR that Soulkey won. I mean weighing those facts, I think Soulkey has earned the top spot.
No matter which route you take it doesn't make it a 100% accurate indicator of who is better. You are entitled to your opinion that Soulkey should be number one but so are the writers in putting him at number two.
SK definitely deserved that championship because of his adaptability. Also, he had Flash as a practice partner. But Innovation's play is powerful but not invincible. He also didn't play a practice partner who plays like SK. VAlso, Innovation can crush his opponents while SK takes his time to dissect and exploit his opponent's weaknesses.
But time will tell, if the brawny of Innovation or the mind of SK will prevail.
BUT I completely agree with the IM players. Their play is just not very convincing, although I can respect MVP's brain. Losira's play is just very uncomfortable to watch. His decision making can be subpar and his mechanics aren't that noteworthy.
Soulkey fumbled to a championship? Did I seriously just heard this? And comparing him to Jiakji,Seed. lol.
SK has been consistently performing well in GSL pre-HotS( 2 times Ro8) and during HotS. If you look at his track record, SK has been steadily improving.
0-3 to 4-3 against best RTS player of all-time. Yup, He clearly fumbled his way to a championship.
The amount of bias is just meh.
I'm a Soulkey fan but I do feel he sort of fumbled into the finals when he should have went into it cleanly. Both times against Parting and sOs he had them against the ropes and made some stupid mistakes that allowed them to tie up the series. Watching those games live made me question his ability somewhat. These games make me question whether he is really championship material. He proved himself in the finals but I am not too sure he could have done it against someone who was more experienced than Innovation. I hope he can win at the WCS Finals in a more convincing fashion. That will purge any doubts anyone has of him.
Can't tell if you're serious about best RTS player of all-time.. best RTS player of all-time does not lose from a 3-0 lead in a bo7 when he is in his prime.
The best RTS player of all time was just an exaggeration.
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! So excited that this will be a feature again. I am a little disappointed to not see Flamewheels icon in this thread somewhere. : (
I am actually shocked that some of you are complaining that Hero is on this list. If you've been paying attention to proleague you'd see that right now he can toe to toe with almost anyone in Korea and give them a run for their money. Also, the dude just won WCS NA! That combined with other team leauge wins...he definitely deserves a spot. MVP will be there again guys, just give him time, but he shouldn't be ahead of Hero yet.
Soulkey's consistency is outrageous. Ro8 > Ro4 > GSL Champion.
Series against teammates tend to be funky in general due to mindception meta-countering so I kinda disregard that series against sOs.
I'm convinced that his muta style ZvT is unbeatable on expansive maps with counter attacks (Whirlwind, Daybreak, etc). Wish he could've shown it more in the finals because he would've wrecked Innovation a couple times.
That said, I agree with the rankings for the most part lol. Thought about Symbol being lower but again his consistency in GSL is quite ridiculous.
On June 05 2013 13:11 hansonslee wrote: SK definitely deserved that championship because of his adaptability. Also, he had Flash as a practice partner. But Innovation's play is powerful but not invincible. He also didn't play a practice partner who plays like SK. VAlso, Innovation can crush his opponents while SK takes his time to dissect and exploit his opponent's weaknesses.
But time will tell, if the brawny of Innovation or the mind of SK will prevail.
BUT I completely agree with the IM players. Their play is just not very convincing, although I can respect MVP's brain. Losira's play is just very uncomfortable to watch. His decision making can be subpar and his mechanics aren't that noteworthy.
?
Losira's mechanics are incredible. He just plays totally retarded at times and seems to just enjoy being unorthodox. Like when he played that legendary series against Gumiho. At first his mass queen/ultra style was really cool, then it just got silly when he STILL wouldn't transition to broods and started upgrading neural parasite to steal medivacs...
Please don't make us not have nice things, disagree at will but don't give psychotic hate to the creators, this is for fun don't spoil it!
I agree with Hero at #10 he is in the top 3 Protoss IMHO when he is not in some weird stress situation like Proleague and his team is down 3-1 and he HAS to win kinda shit. Rain > Hero > Parting > MC > Whitera (just for fun I can't think of another Protoss I even like)
No, it isn't. What if they played another series afterwards and Innovation won? Now are they suddenly equal? A ton of different factors go into who wins a series. Skill, nerves, luck, race match up, help with preparation, etc. Saying that one player is just automatically better because he won a single deciding game is just ridiculous.
No they wouldn't be equal. Innovation would be better because he didn't lose to him. Thats how sports work. If the Heat win the finals it would be a rough road to hoe to claim the Spurs were better.
So what you're saying is that when Soulkey wins a series, he's the better player, but then if they play another series afterwards and Innovation wins, suddenly he's the better player? Do you not realise that this logic makes zero sense?
Am I in an alternate world or something. That sounds incredibly logical to me. If x beats y then x is better. If y beats x then y is better. Am I missing something here?
Yea you are missing something here.
Let's say that there are two players playing against each other, a zerg and a terran (we'll call them Zerg and Terran). Zerg wins, and barely. According to you, that makes him better. But what if Zerg is really bad at zvp and zvz, and Terran is really good in all his other matchups?
What if styles are just weird in this matchup, and Zerg can beat Terran, but has a really poor record otherwise? Say that Zerg, outside of this matchup, has a 40% win ratio, and Terran has a 75% win ratio? The better player is obviously Terran here, even if he did just lose to Zerg.
A heads up game doesn't decide who the better player is. Introduce Protoss. He beats Zerg. But Terran beats him! Now who's the best player out of the three? Obviously Protoss! He beat Zerg, who was the better player beforehand. Which means that Terran is now the best player, because he beat Protoss! And off we go into Wonderland.
It can't work that way.
The better example would be. Let's say Soulkey and Innovation played in the SPL. And then the following day in the GSL.
So let's say Soulkey beat Innovation in the Ace Match. According to takingbackoj's logic, Soulkey is the better player. Then the following day, Innovation beat Soulkey in the GSL. In a span of a day, now according to takingbackoj's logic, Innovation is the better player. See how flawed it is?
When you take into consideration who's the "Better" player, you have to take into consideration variance, sample size and how they fair against the rest of the competition.
As for the NBA comparison...hmm the better example would be.. Charlotte Bobcats vs Miami Heat in a home/home series. Miami demolishes Charlotte @ Miami. So Miami is the better team. The next night, Charlotte beats Mami. So now Charlotte is all of a sudden the better of the two?
Well this is my basic thought process here. When ranking players or teams or whatever, you go with the evidence presented. If someone beats someone else in a competition, I will weigh that heavier than what those two opponents did elsewhere particularly if its a best of 7 series and particularly if the winner also won the finals or its equivalent.
Im not just looking at that one series though. Im looking at the fact that Soulkey beat other top opponents on the way. Im looking at how Soulkey commonly competes and often times beats other top tier players as well. In my opinion, there is no better litmus test than heads up. That is the closest thing their is to deciding whos better. Is it full proof? No but is it better than assessing their other matches and pretty much guessing which one has beat better players.
To put it more plainly, if someone tells me David beat Jeff at SC2 but lost to Eric, im going to assume Eric is better than David regardless of Jeffs talent. When asking yourself who is better in any competition aren't you really asking who would win between the two? Soulkey won in a best of 7. That might not tell the whole story but that is pretty damning evidence to support Soulkey being better and for me to believe otherwise, I would have to see equally damning evidence to dispute it.
On 5-4 record of Innovation and Soulkey, can you really boldly state and have the majority agree with you that Soulkey is clearly the better of the two, especially when there's a 1 win difference?
The whole x beat y but lose to z, so z > y is flawed. Flash has a better head to head vs Innovation AND Soulkey. Life has the better head to head vs Flash. Innovation has the better head to head vs Life. And Soulkey has the better head to head vs Innovation. partinG has the better head to head vs Flash
According tho this..it would be.. Parting > Flash > Soulkey > Innovation > Life > Flash...you end up back in square 1 hmm...
There is no clear "x beat y but lost to z, so z > y" going on here. It's more tier based.
Well like I said, what argument for Innovation being better should outweigh his loss to Soulkey? Shouldn't heads up and major tournament wins be the most important values when judging which player is better than another? Soulkey has him on both in HotS. Is he definitely better than Innovation? No, can't ever be 100% positive. But if you wanted to go that route then you can't be 100% sure any player is better than any other player really.
Soulkey has the major tournament win, he beat Innovation heads up in a best of 7 on the way. Innovation has a better pro league record and won more maps on his way to losing WCS KR, the same WCS KR that Soulkey won. I mean weighing those facts, I think Soulkey has earned the top spot.
No matter which route you take it doesn't make it a 100% accurate indicator of who is better. You are entitled to your opinion that Soulkey should be number one but so are the writers in putting him at number two.
I mostly agree with these, but I really feel as though Life should be ahead of Symbol and RorO. That kid is still incredibly scary. And honestly, I don't believe that Soulkey deserves to be so high. Top 10 for sure, but not number 2. Good choice with Innovation #1.
On June 05 2013 13:40 Kitai wrote: SC2 gets power rankings! Yay!
I mostly agree with these, but I really feel as though Life should be ahead of Symbol and RorO. That kid is still incredibly scary. And honestly, I don't believe that Soulkey deserves to be so high. Top 10 for sure, but not number 2. Good choice with Innovation #1.
You don't think the guy that JUST won WCS Korea and beat arguably the best player in the world doesn't deserve AT LEAST the number 2 spot? Ummmm
I'm so glad that you aren't stupid enough to make SK #1 over Innovation. In every other match except the finals Innovation looked much more dominant then SK. Just look at his way to the finals. One single game really shouldn't decide that a player is better then the other.
On June 05 2013 13:40 Kitai wrote: SC2 gets power rankings! Yay!
I mostly agree with these, but I really feel as though Life should be ahead of Symbol and RorO. That kid is still incredibly scary. And honestly, I don't believe that Soulkey deserves to be so high. Top 10 for sure, but not number 2. Good choice with Innovation #1.
You don't think the guy that JUST won WCS Korea and beat arguably the best player in the world doesn't deserve AT LEAST the number 2 spot? Ummmm
That's correct. Look at his path to the finals and actually watch the games. They were pretty terrible; all of the games he won were cheesy all-ins except for the last one in which Innovation made a horrible mistake and lost in about 2 seconds. The semifinals were of equally disappointing quality. I don't predict a repeat tournament win from Soulkey any time soon, and I think Flash at the very least should be ranked above him.
I predict the highest jump for the next power rank will be Life. Both Life and Flash fell down from the group of death, but Flash had SPL to shine in and Life didn't have much to shine in, so Life gets 7 and Flash gets 3. But the reality is that Life is still pretty good and possibly even the best in the world. His play vs widow mines was the first of its kind in HotS.
As much as I love Mvp, he definitely doesn't deserve a top 10 spot and I'm glad he was left off. His play was terrible at the very end of WoL and in HotS he hasn't proven himself against top competition yet. Beating up foreigners is nice and all but not worthy of consideration when talking about who's the best in the world.
On June 05 2013 13:50 figq wrote: I predict the highest jump for the next power rank will be Life. Both Life and Flash fell down from the group of death, but Flash had SPL to shine in and Life didn't have much to shine in, so Life gets 7 and Flash gets 3. But the reality is that Life is still pretty good and possibly even the best in the world. His play vs widow mines was the first of its kind in HotS.
Obviously Life is still one of the best. Youngest prodigy to win 2 GSL. The only Royal Roader in GSL.
The saddest is that there is even less GSL season this year. So we will see less Code S matches overall this year.
Life is ranked too low, getting 2nd place on that tournament is pretty big deal, went out of GSL on group of death, on somewhat a game he won + a game on wrong gamespeed.
HerO is weird to rank, I guess you could use a bit of that TL bias and put him there.
I've seen virtually every player and game mentioned, and I think this power ranking is spot on. I think people have subjective favorites and biases, which leads them to irrational logic. This is a well done and accurate ranking. Good job. Also, if you watch Hero play, you'd agree that he would STOMP Mvp and other 10th spot contenders. Mvp knows how to win, sure, but he isn't top10 anymore. I don't see him getting past ro16 in this next round, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he fails 0-2 in the ro32.
this is kind of a silly power rank imo. i disagree with several of these, including soulkey/innovation. but i'm glad someone is at least making the power ranks and giving us a reason to discuss things
to the people that said soulkey played worse than innovation even though he beat him. have a simple logical flaw. soulkey beat innovation in may proving hes better than soulkey in may. powerrank is suppose to be monthly not because of 1 tourney. maybe soulkey is far better than innovation. but maybe not all month? maybe just for that series. which would be the case. but still in that tourney in that series he outplayed innovation 4/3 thats big % better than someone. to say hes worse. lol.. just so dense really. give the reason like some say . when mvp wins with 2 rax vs squirtle and squirtle could have won u dont say squirtle is crap. or mvp is worse ect.. that series mvp was better with a high % more between 2 players. its the same here. infact its the first reverse allkill in hots. if that isnt more impressive than someone failing to complete a 3-0 into 4-X seems like that player is far worse. like an NA player who gets ahead vs a korean and then just cops out and turtles and loses. the same thing happens here and people boast hes good. in many of his so called wins he gets build order wins. and when he doesnt people say hes played a bad game. without a tank he will beat u . all the people that said he needs 1 tank to make the go on. soulkey prepared and smoked his opponent 4-0 like he said. did innovation predict 4-3 wih him losing? no he has no clue what was going to happen soulkey said 4-0 got 4-0 never said when it will happen. to bad u all dont notice this. no matter which way he won he won. plz stop dissing on him how he did it./ considering how innovation got over half his kills in hots
About Soulkey vs Innovation: people claiming SK only won cus of cheesy all-ins and one lucky moment in a macro game are either blind or too biased for reason. He lost 2 games to barely misscouting a 2rax and by mistiming / mispositioning his hydra-roach move out by like 10 seconds. Innovation's medivac loss wasn't any different, and had Inno actually been "much better" than SK, he would find means to.claw his way back.
Also, if someone does the same greedy build in every game, you'd be stupid NOT To try and bust it on the maps where it is possible (if you recall the semis, Symbol was basically a single minor control mistake away / + inattentive scouting in the 6p vs 2rax game away from beating Innovation, just because he kept doing the same build that WILL Win in late midgame if you don't punish it with a timing. It's lile the time when MKP went blind cc every time on every map and "dominated" for a while until people figured they can just go and kill him early.
On June 05 2013 14:13 pic wrote: to the people that said soulkey played worse than innovation even though he beat him. have a simple logical flaw. soulkey beat innovation in may proving hes better than soulkey in may. powerrank is suppose to be monthly not because of 1 tourney. maybe soulkey is far better than innovation. but maybe not all month? maybe just for that series. which would be the case. but still in that tourney in that series he outplayed innovation 4/3 thats big % better than someone. to say hes worse. lol.. just so dense really. give the reason like some say . when mvp wins with 2 rax vs squirtle and squirtle could have won u dont say squirtle is crap. or mvp is worse ect.. that series mvp was better with a high % more between 2 players. its the same here. infact its the first reverse allkill in hots. if that isnt more impressive than someone failing to complete a 3-0 into 4-X seems like that player is far worse. like an NA player who gets ahead vs a korean and then just cops out and turtles and loses. the same thing happens here and people boast hes good. in many of his so called wins he gets build order wins. and when he doesnt people say hes played a bad game. without a tank he will beat u . all the people that said he needs 1 tank to make the go on. soulkey prepared and smoked his opponent 4-0 like he said. did innovation predict 4-3 wih him losing? no he has no clue what was going to happen soulkey said 4-0 got 4-0 never said when it will happen. to bad u all dont notice this. no matter which way he won he won. plz stop dissing on him how he did it./ considering how innovation got over half his kills in hots
Are you actually from the States? Amazingly bad English.
On a different note: yay, power rank! HerO has been performing pretty well in Proleague as of late, as well as winning WCS AM. Still, as the authors said in the article, it isn't an easy pick. As a HerO fanboy, I'm happy
Since I know all you guys are noob and idiot all. Just because someone beat a top tier players doesn't mean at all that he should be placed top 10. It all about consistent result. HerO deserves to be top 10 because he been doing extremely well in HOTS and in WOL as well. He is always showing result. If he doesn't win tournament he at least placed very high.
On June 05 2013 14:42 SC2MuffinMan wrote: Since I know all you guys are noob and idiot all. Just because someone beat a top tier players doesn't mean at all that he should be placed top 10. It all about consistent result. HerO deserves to be top 10 because he been doing extremely well in HOTS and in WOL as well. He is always showing result. If he doesn't win tournament he at least placed very high.
No Leenock? Despite him winning a very difficult WCS point tournament in HoTS and having some of the best results and most powerful peak play of anyone. I find this list a little odd. I do get annoyed at how the writers here seem to only be able to remember the last tournament and its results and not see a bigger picture, even if it is only a 1-2 month period. Leenock should be top 5 no arguments.
On June 05 2013 14:51 Maloreon wrote: No Leenock? Despite him winning a very difficult WCS point tournament in HoTS and having some of the best results and most powerful peak play of anyone. I find this list a little odd. I do get annoyed at how the writers here seem to only be able to remember the last tournament and its results and not see a bigger picture, even if it is only a 1-2 month period. Leenock should be top 5 no arguments.
Results: Obviously, this will be the basis of any power rank. And since this is a monthly power rank, we'll be focusing on results from the last month, that is the month of May. Previous HotS results will also be taken into account as well, but with less weight.
On June 05 2013 14:51 Maloreon wrote: No Leenock? Despite him winning a very difficult WCS point tournament in HoTS and having some of the best results and most powerful peak play of anyone. I find this list a little odd. I do get annoyed at how the writers here seem to only be able to remember the last tournament and its results and not see a bigger picture, even if it is only a 1-2 month period. Leenock should be top 5 no arguments.
Ehh, maybe in the close but no cigar area. Dreamhack is less notable than any of the WCS regions. Losing in the ro32 was understandable since it was the group of death, but then he went and lost to Bbyong (who he really should have beat) on his way back to code S. He hasn't been looking like the powerhouse he used to for FXO either in the GSTL.
I remember poring over these so much back in BW, and loved seeing the arrows going up and down showing how much each player rose or dropped since the previous month.
Innovation over Soulkey? Also pointing out that this last month's power rank? I don't know what happens in the future, maybe Inno takes down Soulkey, maybe he is better, but man this last month was definitely Soulkey's month.
Again about this mistake about 3 mediavacs. This is a game. Those mistakes are the difference between the winner and looser.
I agree with this although HerO may be able to edge out Parting soon if he keeps performing well. Towards the end of WoL HerO would always beat Mvp which is the last head to head we have of those two and I do think he's been performing more consistently in both teamleagues and individual leagues, winning WCS AM and only barely losing to Leenock in the DH semis. Tough to rank Mvp though since he just very recently broke out of his slump and the first victims of his rage were foreigners.
The one thing I'd change is Roro in there. Very recently he's not been playing well at all and I think I'd rank Mvp above him and put Roro at #11 for the moment.
On June 05 2013 13:53 forsooth wrote: As much as I love Mvp, he definitely doesn't deserve a top 10 spot and I'm glad he was left off. His play was terrible at the very end of WoL and in HotS he hasn't proven himself against top competition yet. Beating up foreigners is nice and all but not worthy of consideration when talking about who's the best in the world.
The reason his play was terrible is because he didn't try very hard. He did just enough to get the Nestea award. Mvp is very money and award motivated, he said so many times in interviews. When there is no money on the line he doesn't care. Same reason he never does well on team league. Look at him now, winning easy money in EU and adding another premier tournament into his list of achievements. I have no doubt that if mvp tried to stay in korea, he would have been able to make top 8. Bomber made it, so it is not that hard. But why make $2k in Korea where as it is much easier to make $20k in EU. He was the first A-teamer who made the switch to SC2 from BW when the competition was soft and there was plenty of money. Now he is the first top WoL player who switched to EU for the very same reason. That is just how he is, smart and practical. If getting into top 8 power rank meaning earning $2k while not being to attend season's finals, and being placed at #11 meaning making $20k and at least another $5k at the season's final, then of course mvp would rather be at #11.
On June 05 2013 09:16 Scville wrote: Why Hero > Kangho and MVP?
Kangho almost won vs SoS and he 3-0'ed Bomber
I know, Hero is from teamliquid but come on lol, no way he is the 10th best player in the world.
''Life's only results this month were losing to NAKSEO in the GSTL and 2 - 0ing MarineKing in GSL. (But at this point, is 2 - 0ing MarineKing in ZvT really an accomplishment?)''
On June 05 2013 09:27 Scarecrow wrote: Agreed with it all except Hero at #10. There was hardly any serious competition in WCS America, just look at how deep Revival went.
you make it sound like WCS Europe was anymore difficult lol. I would say they are both on par or so. That and HerO competed in PL and did well enough there while mvp hasn't made much of an appearance.
Great list! Agree with most of it. I've heard horror stories about his games so glad he's not on the list XD
1 win at a WCS final doesn't nessarily mean that SK dominates Innovation, even at least for this month. Overall, I think Innovation is stronger, his plays are cleaner, but Soulkey had the nerves to survive that series where both players were suffering emotionally.
Curious for the Season Finals. SK vs Innovation is definitely a possibility, and I want to see who the victor will be.
Hero lol, i dont even think Hero can compete in Code A, Soulkey should be above innovation tho.... innovation did well at SPL, but Soulkey too +GSL champ. Too much type for innovation, Soulkey beat sOs to the final, innovation beat symbol, sorri symbol just cheese to much and never impress me.
Yeah the power rank is somewhat on lines with what I'd imagine it would be. I sort of knew opening this link that the writers would go Innovation > Soulkey > Flash somewhat in spite of GSL results for proleague.
GSTL unfortunately hasn't got the same pull, but also it's not a constant source of comparison between esf and kespa so things are blurry. I'm still waiting for a consolidation of it all, but that would require them to get along, so I'm not waiting forever for that.
Life at #7 is interesting. Feels like an attempt to not let go of his success not in May. Sure I can see Life winning anything at any time, but still he didn't.
Hopefully MVP spites you for making him #11. The last proper power rank he was in went something like "MVP is only here because he beat Flash. We'll never see him again." =P
On June 05 2013 15:44 bittman wrote: Yeah the power rank is somewhat on lines with what I'd imagine it would be. I sort of knew opening this link that the writers would go Innovation > Soulkey > Flash somewhat in spite of GSL results for proleague.
GSTL unfortunately hasn't got the same pull, but also it's not a constant source of comparison between esf and kespa so things are blurry. I'm still waiting for a consolidation of it all, but that would require them to get along, so I'm not waiting forever for that.
Life at #7 is interesting. Feels like an attempt to not let go of his success not in May. Sure I can see Life winning anything at any time, but still he didn't.
Hopefully MVP spites you for making him #11. The last proper power rank he was in went something like "MVP is only here because he beat Flash. We'll never see him again." =P
hahaha Hana Daetoo good memories. Haven't seen Flash killed like that late game TvT (maybe against Hiya's infinite wraiths).
People underrate HerO so much. He's not bad as people make him out to be. He is WCS NA champ after all.
On June 05 2013 15:42 sam21023 wrote: Hero lol, i dont even think Hero can compete in Code A, Soulkey should be above innovation tho.... innovation did well at SPL, but Soulkey too +GSL champ. Too much type for innovation, Soulkey beat sOs to the final, innovation beat symbol, sorri symbol just cheese to much and never impress me.
Considering his PL performance HerO could compete in Code S if he performs. But that's the thing with him, on a good day he makes everyone look like a scrub and then the next day he somehow manages to look like a completely different, much much worse player.
Soulkey should be no. 1 as he delivered when it mattered the most. Innovation is good, and his games more flashy, but nevertheless, he lost in the finals.
On June 05 2013 15:42 sam21023 wrote: Hero lol, i dont even think Hero can compete in Code A, Soulkey should be above innovation tho.... innovation did well at SPL, but Soulkey too +GSL champ. Too much type for innovation, Soulkey beat sOs to the final, innovation beat symbol, sorri symbol just cheese to much and never impress me.
Considering his PL performance HerO could compete in Code S if he performs. But that's the thing with him, on a good day he makes everyone look like a scrub and then the next day he somehow manages to look like a completely different, much much worse player.
One thing is for sure, watching a HerO game is never boring.
I know Bogus is awesome and he has a solid micro/macro but in the end Soulkey defeated him. And it wasn`t just in sc2 he had Bogus since BW times! How is Soulkey no2 ??? And yes I disagree with picking Parting and sOs in the top 10 - they are awesome but not that awesome. Her0 deserved a lot more especialy if you based this on Proleague results. Also I would have placed Rain over Flash any day of the year! (sry Flash fans). I do hope after WCS finals we will have a better view of the sc2 rank system thou.
I agree with this list. Innovation is better than Soulkey. Just look at the players they had to play to reach the finals.
Yes, Innovation bummed out in the last four games of the finals, but that was his only error in the entire GSL season. Sure, it's a huge deal, but I still rank him above Soulkey, who, as said in the article, always won his series 4-3, 3-2 etc., never really looking dominating.
I expect Innovation to win the WCS season finals and be ranked #1 next month.
life is still the best, hes been the best player for half a year, lost in group of death in incredibly stupid way and won the only other tournament he participated in, now hes rank 7? lol
I'm completely Ok with the first four, INnoVatioN is definitely credible at first place though he lost in the finals. Soulkey did show great composure and nerves management (I would say exceptionnal), but I wouldn't put him ahead of INnoVatioN just on the back of this finals. Flash and Rain at #3 and #4 is completely normal imo.
Then, I just don't know how to rank Symbol, RorO and Life... Life being few places under Symbol is weird... But the wins Symbol managed to pull off against INnoVatioN make for a solid argument (while Life got quite dismantled in the GoD). Then, it's not just a few wins (or losses) that defines a player as a whole (INno wouldn't be #1 otherwise) so I don't really know.
From #8 and downward, I don't really know how to rank. HerO seems a pretty solid #10, though debatable (me want Bomber in this, but meh, quite not the fit )
Bogus in number one is accurate, he clearly still is the best player in the world, even with that spectacular choke in the finals. I like that Flash is up there as well.
Placing Life behind Flash doesn't really seem accurate to me. SK is really good at ZvT but his play still don't really impress me as much as some of Life's ZvT. Life vs Innovation first game was really close. If not for lack of overseer Life would have gained massiv advantage and likely won. Innovation is also overhyped imo. In the end I think the there's not enough result to draw a comparision. I have a feeling that Life and Flash will overtake both Soulkey and Innovation soon.
Flash\Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, he murdered Flash in that match up. He is also very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Very nice power rank. Finally a place that we can discuss global domination in SC2. Also judging from the phrase "June 2013" it seems it's first of the monthly SC2 power rank.
On June 05 2013 16:59 Grovbolle wrote: Not even a mention of Aligulac... I am disappoint son.
Well Aligulac is equivalent of TLPD + nicer statistical estimation which by very definition are very unlike the idea behind Power Rank which is willing to give a ton of credit for short series of winnings etc.
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
Some other things happened in between, like him all killing teams in PL. I do think Life could rank higher but this is an estimation of current form. Life hasn't quite shown that dominant play in most recent games.
When reading at Soulkey's paragraph it sounds like Soulkey was not playing well in this GSL but lucky as hell, he humbly received his title from the king Innovation himself... Like your screen cap of these mutas killing 3 medivacs... I mean seriously... Even the best of the best cannot avoid this kind of "mistake" when they are provoked so intelligently by another very skilled player. It's not a simple "mistake", it's how SK is able to have his opponent make this kind of mistake. This is why SK is awesome.
And Rain behind Flash is also questionable.
But overall though this ranking sounds quite accurate.
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
Have you seen Flash's record in R5 Proleague? He's easily in the top 5 in-form players, based both off gains on Aligulac and ELO.
Furthermore Life's victories over Flash in MLG and that Asian Indoor tournament were more than a month ago, they're hardly recent. I don't think anyone would dispute that Life has a better head-to-head record than Flash but based off last month's results, there is little we can say about Life and a lot going for Flash.
I'd say the top 4 in the rankings are accurate enough. Innovation has had a real steamer in the GSL, though I honestly believe Soulkey is the superior player to both Innovation and Flash over all three match ups. Flash's TvP in HOTS is looking quite shaky (while his TvT and TvZ are looking stellar), and I have similar doubts with Innovation's TvT (though yes he does have the world's best TvZ). Doesn't Soulkey have the best wins-loss ratio in Proleague, or is that Rain?
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
Because this is not about head to head, it is about the player performance in ALL Month. Flash had a 15-2 record on ProLeague in the last round, that is an amazing record against some of the best Kespa players.
You could say that it is "unfair" because Life is not in proleague, but the thing is, we saw very little of Life this month. Yes he is still one of the best in the world, but he did lose in the group phase in GSL and has not really played GSTL that much, so this month the only notable thing he did was indeed beat flash. That is all.
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
With Results. Flash has excpetional Proleague record. Life has pretty much nothing going for him. He played 1 match in GSTL - he lost to NAKSEO. He finished GSL/WCS run in round of 16. He beat MarineKing 2-0 which considering how much slumping MKP is, is not an achievement.
Flash on the other hand has excellent Proleague record. That's why Life's historical wiping floor with Flash is irrelevant.
Life needs to hurry up and join a Kespa team so we can see him more often, it's too hard to compare him to the Proleague aces who are playing at minimum twice a week.
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Flash\Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, he murdered Flash in that match up. He is also very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
This is the 2nd thing I love in powerank, people commentaries. Fanboyism. No, Life doesn't deserve to be above Flash and Roro. No, Life couldn't easiliy 3-0 them. No, Life has no longer the best ZvT. Still a good zerg, but try to be subjective. Powerank is proleague biased because this is one of the most active league, the most hyped (since OSL and MSL no longer exist) with the highest level.
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
Have you seen Flash's record in R5 Proleague? He's easily in the top 5 in-form players, based both off gains on Aligulac and ELO.
Furthermore Life's victories over Flash in MLG and that Asian Indoor tournament were more than a month ago, they're hardly recent. I don't think anyone would dispute that Life has a better head-to-head record than Flash but based off last month's results, there is little we can say about Life and a lot going for Flash.
I'd say the top 4 in the rankings are accurate enough. Innovation has had a real steamer in the GSL, though I honestly believe Soulkey is the superior player to both Innovation and Flash over all three match ups. Flash's TvP in HOTS is looking quite shaky (while his TvT and TvZ are looking stellar), and I have similar doubts with Innovation's TvT (though yes he does have the world's best TvZ). Doesn't Soulkey have the best wins-loss ratio in Proleague, or is that Rain?
I'm pretty sure Rain has the best winrate in PL. Flash has a bit more wins but also much more matches played iirc. In percentage I think Rain is well ahead of everyone else in PL.
HerO's having a flow at the time, he well deserved his tenth place. I just wish he'd go play GSL again, he'd be in for a ro32-ro8 finish I think, depending on his emotions.
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
Have you seen Flash's record in R5 Proleague? He's easily in the top 5 in-form players, based both off gains on Aligulac and ELO.
Furthermore Life's victories over Flash in MLG and that Asian Indoor tournament were more than a month ago, they're hardly recent. I don't think anyone would dispute that Life has a better head-to-head record than Flash but based off last month's results, there is little we can say about Life and a lot going for Flash.
I'd say the top 4 in the rankings are accurate enough. Innovation has had a real steamer in the GSL, though I honestly believe Soulkey is the superior player to both Innovation and Flash over all three match ups. Flash's TvP in HOTS is looking quite shaky (while his TvT and TvZ are looking stellar), and I have similar doubts with Innovation's TvT (though yes he does have the world's best TvZ). Doesn't Soulkey have the best wins-loss ratio in Proleague, or is that Rain?
I'm pretty sure Rain has the best winrate in PL. Flash has a bit more wins but also much more matches played iirc. In percentage I think Rain is well ahead of everyone else in PL.
Yeah percentage/ratio-wise I had a feeling it was Rain (though from what I recall, Soulkey also has a pretty good percentage due to his low number of losses.)
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
Have you seen Flash's record in R5 Proleague? He's easily in the top 5 in-form players, based both off gains on Aligulac and ELO.
Furthermore Life's victories over Flash in MLG and that Asian Indoor tournament were more than a month ago, they're hardly recent. I don't think anyone would dispute that Life has a better head-to-head record than Flash but based off last month's results, there is little we can say about Life and a lot going for Flash.
I'd say the top 4 in the rankings are accurate enough. Innovation has had a real steamer in the GSL, though I honestly believe Soulkey is the superior player to both Innovation and Flash over all three match ups. Flash's TvP in HOTS is looking quite shaky (while his TvT and TvZ are looking stellar), and I have similar doubts with Innovation's TvT (though yes he does have the world's best TvZ). Doesn't Soulkey have the best wins-loss ratio in Proleague, or is that Rain?
I'm pretty sure Rain has the best winrate in PL. Flash has a bit more wins but also much more matches played iirc. In percentage I think Rain is well ahead of everyone else in PL.
Yeah percentage/ratio-wise I had a feeling it was Rain (though from what I recall, Soulkey also has a pretty good percentage due to his low number of losses.)
Yes. Also Rain has lost a bit more on the very last matches in PL so things might have changed a bit.
author is innovations fan, i don't see any reasons to not put soulkey on the 1st line. he outplayed him in macro/defending cheeses/executing all ins, and all four games in a row. innovation played bad, that's it.
I don't agree with Innovation at rank 1 after seeing him cracked under pressure during GSL final. Maybe when Innovation finally adapt to dealing with pressure in the future, Soulkey seems to be a better player both skills and mentally at this point of time.
On June 05 2013 17:43 sickless wrote: author is innovations fan, i don't see any reasons to not put soulkey on the 1st line. he outplayed him in macro/defending cheeses/executing all ins, and all four games in a row. innovation played bad, that's it.
Excepted that the powerank is not only based on one series between two players.
On June 05 2013 17:43 sickless wrote: author is innovations fan, i don't see any reasons to not put soulkey on the 1st line. he outplayed him in macro/defending cheeses/executing all ins, and all four games in a row. innovation played bad, that's it.
Because Soulkey cheesed him 2 times, scouted a proxy 2 rax and then hugely benefitted from Bogus losing 3 medivacs for nothing. Also Innovation has more consistently looked brilliant while if you watch Soulkey he doesn't always look that great (the series vs sOs for example)
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
Have you seen Flash's record in R5 Proleague? He's easily in the top 5 in-form players, based both off gains on Aligulac and ELO.
Furthermore Life's victories over Flash in MLG and that Asian Indoor tournament were more than a month ago, they're hardly recent. I don't think anyone would dispute that Life has a better head-to-head record than Flash but based off last month's results, there is little we can say about Life and a lot going for Flash.
I'd say the top 4 in the rankings are accurate enough. Innovation has had a real steamer in the GSL, though I honestly believe Soulkey is the superior player to both Innovation and Flash over all three match ups. Flash's TvP in HOTS is looking quite shaky (while his TvT and TvZ are looking stellar), and I have similar doubts with Innovation's TvT (though yes he does have the world's best TvZ). Doesn't Soulkey have the best wins-loss ratio in Proleague, or is that Rain?
I'm pretty sure Rain has the best winrate in PL. Flash has a bit more wins but also much more matches played iirc. In percentage I think Rain is well ahead of everyone else in PL.
Yeah percentage/ratio-wise I had a feeling it was Rain (though from what I recall, Soulkey also has a pretty good percentage due to his low number of losses.)
2012-2013 Proleague/Statistics The best percentage with at least 10 matches played this season have: 1. BraVo: 8-3 - 73% 2. Rain: 33-14 - 70% 3. Zest 25-12 - 68% 4. INnoVation 33-16 - 67,35% 5. Flash 37-18 - 67,27% (that's really close, percentage wise) 6. sOs 27-14 - 65,9% 7. Soulkey 23-12 - 65,7% 8. s2 11-6 65% 9. free 22-13 62,9% 10. RorO 25-15 62,5%
With minimum 15 games played BraVo is out, Stats is in.
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
Some other things happened in between, like him all killing teams in PL. I do think Life could rank higher but this is an estimation of current form. Life hasn't quite shown that dominant play in most recent games.
And that should give him a spot in top 10, but not top 3. spl is great fun to watch, but does not reflect individual league performance very well. Without spl results, flash shouldn't even make top 10. That's why I said this is spl biased.
On June 05 2013 17:43 sickless wrote: author is innovations fan, i don't see any reasons to not put soulkey on the 1st line. he outplayed him in macro/defending cheeses/executing all ins, and all four games in a row. innovation played bad, that's it.
Because Soulkey cheesed him 2 times, scouted a proxy 2 rax and then hugely benefitted from Bogus losing 3 medivacs for nothing.
On June 05 2013 17:43 sickless wrote: author is innovations fan, i don't see any reasons to not put soulkey on the 1st line. he outplayed him in macro/defending cheeses/executing all ins, and all four games in a row. innovation played bad, that's it.
Because Soulkey cheesed him 2 times, scouted a proxy 2 rax and then hugely benefitted from Bogus losing 3 medivacs for nothing.
Sounds like legitimate winnings to me.
They are but they don't necessarily indicate overall skill or power.
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
Some other things happened in between, like him all killing teams in PL. I do think Life could rank higher but this is an estimation of current form. Life hasn't quite shown that dominant play in most recent games.
And that should give him a spot in top 10, but not top 3. spl is great fun to watch, but does not reflect individual league performance very well. Without spl results, flash shouldn't even make top 10. That's why I said this is spl biased.
But nowhere does it say that this is a power rank for individual leagues. It's an overall one.
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Flash\Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, he murdered Flash in that match up. He is also very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
This is the 2nd thing I love in powerank, people commentaries. Fanboyism. No, Life doesn't deserve to be above Flash and Roro. No, Life couldn't easiliy 3-0 them. No, Life has no longer the best ZvT. Still a good zerg, but try to be subjective. Powerank is proleague biased because this is one of the most active league, the most hyped (since OSL and MSL no longer exist) with the highest level.
I didn't say Life 3-0 them. I sayd Life 3-0 players that were beaten by them in the GSL. Very different thing.
Life needs to join a PL team. I hate how low he is on this list just because unlike Flash he doesn't have another league besides GSL to prove himself in.
On June 05 2013 17:54 Ysellian wrote: Life needs to join a PL team. I hate how low he is on this list just because unlike Flash he doesn't have another league besides GSL to prove himself in.
On June 05 2013 17:54 Ysellian wrote: Life needs to join a PL team. I hate how low he is on this list just because unlike Flash he doesn't have another league besides GSL to prove himself in.
He is mediocre in GSTL. Go figure.
Proleague teams also play x4 or x5 as often as GSTL teams, so you have more chances to prove yourself. Life has barely had a chance to play in GSTL. I think he's played in something like two matches since GSTL started over 2 months ago?
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
Have you seen Flash's record in R5 Proleague? He's easily in the top 5 in-form players, based both off gains on Aligulac and ELO.
Furthermore Life's victories over Flash in MLG and that Asian Indoor tournament were more than a month ago, they're hardly recent. I don't think anyone would dispute that Life has a better head-to-head record than Flash but based off last month's results, there is little we can say about Life and a lot going for Flash.
I'd say the top 4 in the rankings are accurate enough. Innovation has had a real steamer in the GSL, though I honestly believe Soulkey is the superior player to both Innovation and Flash over all three match ups. Flash's TvP in HOTS is looking quite shaky (while his TvT and TvZ are looking stellar), and I have similar doubts with Innovation's TvT (though yes he does have the world's best TvZ). Doesn't Soulkey have the best wins-loss ratio in Proleague, or is that Rain?
I'm pretty sure Rain has the best winrate in PL. Flash has a bit more wins but also much more matches played iirc. In percentage I think Rain is well ahead of everyone else in PL.
Yeah percentage/ratio-wise I had a feeling it was Rain (though from what I recall, Soulkey also has a pretty good percentage due to his low number of losses.)
2012-2013 Proleague/Statistics The best percentage with at least 10 matches played this season have: 1. BraVo: 8-3 - 73% 2. Rain: 33-14 - 70% 3. Zest 25-12 - 68% 4. INnoVation 33-16 - 67,35% 5. Flash 37-18 - 67,27% (that's really close, percentage wise) 6. sOs 27-14 - 65,9% 7. Soulkey 23-12 - 65,7% 8. s2 11-6 65% 9. free 22-13 62,9% 10. RorO 25-15 62,5%
With minimum 15 games played BraVo is out, Stats is in.
That 70% winning rate from Rain in a volatile game like SC2, damn.
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
Have you seen Flash's record in R5 Proleague? He's easily in the top 5 in-form players, based both off gains on Aligulac and ELO.
Furthermore Life's victories over Flash in MLG and that Asian Indoor tournament were more than a month ago, they're hardly recent. I don't think anyone would dispute that Life has a better head-to-head record than Flash but based off last month's results, there is little we can say about Life and a lot going for Flash.
I'd say the top 4 in the rankings are accurate enough. Innovation has had a real steamer in the GSL, though I honestly believe Soulkey is the superior player to both Innovation and Flash over all three match ups. Flash's TvP in HOTS is looking quite shaky (while his TvT and TvZ are looking stellar), and I have similar doubts with Innovation's TvT (though yes he does have the world's best TvZ). Doesn't Soulkey have the best wins-loss ratio in Proleague, or is that Rain?
I'm pretty sure Rain has the best winrate in PL. Flash has a bit more wins but also much more matches played iirc. In percentage I think Rain is well ahead of everyone else in PL.
Yeah percentage/ratio-wise I had a feeling it was Rain (though from what I recall, Soulkey also has a pretty good percentage due to his low number of losses.)
2012-2013 Proleague/Statistics The best percentage with at least 10 matches played this season have: 1. BraVo: 8-3 - 73% 2. Rain: 33-14 - 70% 3. Zest 25-12 - 68% 4. INnoVation 33-16 - 67,35% 5. Flash 37-18 - 67,27% (that's really close, percentage wise) 6. sOs 27-14 - 65,9% 7. Soulkey 23-12 - 65,7% 8. s2 11-6 65% 9. free 22-13 62,9% 10. RorO 25-15 62,5%
With minimum 15 games played BraVo is out, Stats is in.
That 70% winning rate from Rain in a volatile game like SC2, damn.
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
Have you seen Flash's record in R5 Proleague? He's easily in the top 5 in-form players, based both off gains on Aligulac and ELO.
Furthermore Life's victories over Flash in MLG and that Asian Indoor tournament were more than a month ago, they're hardly recent. I don't think anyone would dispute that Life has a better head-to-head record than Flash but based off last month's results, there is little we can say about Life and a lot going for Flash.
I'd say the top 4 in the rankings are accurate enough. Innovation has had a real steamer in the GSL, though I honestly believe Soulkey is the superior player to both Innovation and Flash over all three match ups. Flash's TvP in HOTS is looking quite shaky (while his TvT and TvZ are looking stellar), and I have similar doubts with Innovation's TvT (though yes he does have the world's best TvZ). Doesn't Soulkey have the best wins-loss ratio in Proleague, or is that Rain?
I'm pretty sure Rain has the best winrate in PL. Flash has a bit more wins but also much more matches played iirc. In percentage I think Rain is well ahead of everyone else in PL.
Yeah percentage/ratio-wise I had a feeling it was Rain (though from what I recall, Soulkey also has a pretty good percentage due to his low number of losses.)
2012-2013 Proleague/Statistics The best percentage with at least 10 matches played this season have: 1. BraVo: 8-3 - 73% 2. Rain: 33-14 - 70% 3. Zest 25-12 - 68% 4. INnoVation 33-16 - 67,35% 5. Flash 37-18 - 67,27% (that's really close, percentage wise) 6. sOs 27-14 - 65,9% 7. Soulkey 23-12 - 65,7% 8. s2 11-6 65% 9. free 22-13 62,9% 10. RorO 25-15 62,5%
With minimum 15 games played BraVo is out, Stats is in.
That 70% winning rate from Rain in a volatile game like SC2, damn.
On June 05 2013 17:54 Ysellian wrote: Life needs to join a PL team. I hate how low he is on this list just because unlike Flash he doesn't have another league besides GSL to prove himself in.
He is mediocre in GSTL. Go figure.
Proleague teams also play x4 or x5 as often as GSTL teams, so you have more chances to prove yourself. Life has barely had a chance to play in GSTL. I think he's played in something like two matches since GSTL started over 2 months ago?
Besides Proleague is a bigger thing than GSTL, players are far more likely to practice specifically for Proleague than GSTL.
so innovation cheese/all ins soulkey 3 times and soulkey the same 3 times and the one long game goes to soul key and before that they were 1-1 in series, yet innovation is better than soulkey in rankings, thats is like joe frazier beating ali and saying ali is ranked #1.... you people are such fan boys of koreans when they go on a winning streak aka taeja, drg, mma, mvp, nestea,etc
On June 05 2013 18:19 brieN wrote: so innovation cheese/all ins soulkey 3 times and soulkey the same 3 times and the one long game goes to soul key and before that they were 1-1 in series, yet innovation is better than soulkey in rankings, thats is like joe frazier beating ali and saying ali is ranked #1.... you people are such fan boys of koreans when they go on a winning streak aka taeja, drg, mma, mvp, nestea,etc
On June 05 2013 18:19 brieN wrote: so innovation cheese/all ins soulkey 3 times and soulkey the same 3 times and the one long game goes to soul key and before that they were 1-1 in series, yet innovation is better than soulkey in rankings, thats is like joe frazier beating ali and saying ali is ranked #1.... you people are such fan boys of koreans when they go on a winning streak aka taeja, drg, mma, mvp, nestea,etc
Power Rank is more than just head-to-head battles. Innovation has been doing better than Soulkey is proleague.
On June 05 2013 18:19 brieN wrote: so innovation cheese/all ins soulkey 3 times and soulkey the same 3 times and the one long game goes to soul key and before that they were 1-1 in series, yet innovation is better than soulkey in rankings, thats is like joe frazier beating ali and saying ali is ranked #1.... you people are such fan boys of koreans when they go on a winning streak aka taeja, drg, mma, mvp, nestea,etc
I like how the players you listed were actually the best in the world during their respective runs.
On June 05 2013 18:19 brieN wrote: so innovation cheese/all ins soulkey 3 times and soulkey the same 3 times and the one long game goes to soul key and before that they were 1-1 in series, yet innovation is better than soulkey in rankings, thats is like joe frazier beating ali and saying ali is ranked #1.... you people are such fan boys of koreans when they go on a winning streak aka taeja, drg, mma, mvp, nestea,etc
Power Rank is more than just head-to-head battles. Innovation has been doing better than Soulkey is proleague.
Also he played better in quarterfinal and semifinal. One match is not everything.
Look at Fantasy. He won OSL and still had to wait LONG time before he was #1 in Power Rank.
On June 05 2013 18:19 brieN wrote: so innovation cheese/all ins soulkey 3 times and soulkey the same 3 times and the one long game goes to soul key and before that they were 1-1 in series, yet innovation is better than soulkey in rankings, thats is like joe frazier beating ali and saying ali is ranked #1.... you people are such fan boys of koreans when they go on a winning streak aka taeja, drg, mma, mvp, nestea,etc
Look at the path that innovation had. And as it was already said, it was not soulkey that won, but innovation throwing it away. FYI, I am a zerg fun.
Even though Soulkey won and played really well after game 3. I don't think those 4 games were "thrown away" by Innovation it was just Soulkey countering Innovations greedy style, no tanks etc. And incredible hellbat defence.
Still ranking Innovation number 1 is good choice because his run in GSL was imo more incredible, his games in SPL has been superior to Soulkey etc.
Great ranking overall I don't agree with everyone of them but it is still great and epic to see Powerrank in sc2!!
Bringing this feature back is a terrible terrible mistake. It's the equivalent of "Best Games of 2013" for video games reviewers. Pointless rankings only written to make people take about it and gain viewers. I expected more out of the writing team.
On June 05 2013 18:35 Otolia wrote: Bringing this feature back is a terrible terrible mistake. It's the equivalent of "Best Games of 2013" for video games reviewers. Pointless rankings only written to make people take about it and gain viewers. I expected more out of the writing team.
On June 05 2013 18:35 Otolia wrote: Bringing this feature back is a terrible terrible mistake. It's the equivalent of "Best Games of 2013" for video games reviewers. Pointless rankings only written to make people take about it and gain viewers. I expected more out of the writing team.
Usually you talk about games you like
Don't forget, some people just like to bitch and criticise for no reason! Never forget that ^^
On June 05 2013 18:35 Otolia wrote: Bringing this feature back is a terrible terrible mistake. It's the equivalent of "Best Games of 2013" for video games reviewers. Pointless rankings only written to make people take about it and gain viewers. I expected more out of the writing team.
Based on this feedback, we have decided to discontinue power ranks in future months.
On June 05 2013 18:35 Otolia wrote: Bringing this feature back is a terrible terrible mistake. It's the equivalent of "Best Games of 2013" for video games reviewers. Pointless rankings only written to make people take about it and gain viewers. I expected more out of the writing team.
Based on this feedback, we have decided to discontinue power ranks in future months.
That's a joke.. right? I thoroughly enjoyed this.
edit. please put it back on the side bar on the right like it used to be.
On June 05 2013 18:35 Otolia wrote: Bringing this feature back is a terrible terrible mistake. It's the equivalent of "Best Games of 2013" for video games reviewers. Pointless rankings only written to make people take about it and gain viewers. I expected more out of the writing team.
Based on this feedback, we have decided to discontinue power ranks in future months.
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
Have you seen Flash's record in R5 Proleague? He's easily in the top 5 in-form players, based both off gains on Aligulac and ELO.
Furthermore Life's victories over Flash in MLG and that Asian Indoor tournament were more than a month ago, they're hardly recent. I don't think anyone would dispute that Life has a better head-to-head record than Flash but based off last month's results, there is little we can say about Life and a lot going for Flash.
I'd say the top 4 in the rankings are accurate enough. Innovation has had a real steamer in the GSL, though I honestly believe Soulkey is the superior player to both Innovation and Flash over all three match ups. Flash's TvP in HOTS is looking quite shaky (while his TvT and TvZ are looking stellar), and I have similar doubts with Innovation's TvT (though yes he does have the world's best TvZ). Doesn't Soulkey have the best wins-loss ratio in Proleague, or is that Rain?
I'm pretty sure Rain has the best winrate in PL. Flash has a bit more wins but also much more matches played iirc. In percentage I think Rain is well ahead of everyone else in PL.
Yeah percentage/ratio-wise I had a feeling it was Rain (though from what I recall, Soulkey also has a pretty good percentage due to his low number of losses.)
2012-2013 Proleague/Statistics The best percentage with at least 10 matches played this season have: 1. BraVo: 8-3 - 73% 2. Rain: 33-14 - 70% 3. Zest 25-12 - 68% 4. INnoVation 33-16 - 67,35% 5. Flash 37-18 - 67,27% (that's really close, percentage wise) 6. sOs 27-14 - 65,9% 7. Soulkey 23-12 - 65,7% 8. s2 11-6 65% 9. free 22-13 62,9% 10. RorO 25-15 62,5%
With minimum 15 games played BraVo is out, Stats is in.
That 70% winning rate from Rain in a volatile game like SC2, damn.
And they still placed Flash before Rain....
You realise that Flash's win rate is less than 3% lower, right?
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
Have you seen Flash's record in R5 Proleague? He's easily in the top 5 in-form players, based both off gains on Aligulac and ELO.
Furthermore Life's victories over Flash in MLG and that Asian Indoor tournament were more than a month ago, they're hardly recent. I don't think anyone would dispute that Life has a better head-to-head record than Flash but based off last month's results, there is little we can say about Life and a lot going for Flash.
I'd say the top 4 in the rankings are accurate enough. Innovation has had a real steamer in the GSL, though I honestly believe Soulkey is the superior player to both Innovation and Flash over all three match ups. Flash's TvP in HOTS is looking quite shaky (while his TvT and TvZ are looking stellar), and I have similar doubts with Innovation's TvT (though yes he does have the world's best TvZ). Doesn't Soulkey have the best wins-loss ratio in Proleague, or is that Rain?
I'm pretty sure Rain has the best winrate in PL. Flash has a bit more wins but also much more matches played iirc. In percentage I think Rain is well ahead of everyone else in PL.
Yeah percentage/ratio-wise I had a feeling it was Rain (though from what I recall, Soulkey also has a pretty good percentage due to his low number of losses.)
2012-2013 Proleague/Statistics The best percentage with at least 10 matches played this season have: 1. BraVo: 8-3 - 73% 2. Rain: 33-14 - 70% 3. Zest 25-12 - 68% 4. INnoVation 33-16 - 67,35% 5. Flash 37-18 - 67,27% (that's really close, percentage wise) 6. sOs 27-14 - 65,9% 7. Soulkey 23-12 - 65,7% 8. s2 11-6 65% 9. free 22-13 62,9% 10. RorO 25-15 62,5%
With minimum 15 games played BraVo is out, Stats is in.
That 70% winning rate from Rain in a volatile game like SC2, damn.
And they still placed Flash before Rain....
and they placed innovation ahead of Zest, wow what idiots
In all seriousness, nice power rank, I have to admit I often didn't like them for BW (I mean I disagreed with the ranking but still enjoyed them) but this one looks really solid
On June 05 2013 18:35 Otolia wrote: Bringing this feature back is a terrible terrible mistake. It's the equivalent of "Best Games of 2013" for video games reviewers. Pointless rankings only written to make people take about it and gain viewers. I expected more out of the writing team.
Bringing up this comment was a terrible terrible mistake. It's the equivalent of watching a tv show you hate then sending a letter to the producers to tell them that you are outraged that you watched it. Pointless comments are only written to gain replies and gain reputation for trollish views. I expected more out of you as a commenter.
Seriously though, if you don't like it, why read it? Personally I find it awesome to talk about my favorite players and attempt to form arguments as to why they aren't where they should be. Adds a lot of fun to the scene IMO.
On June 05 2013 18:35 Otolia wrote: Bringing this feature back is a terrible terrible mistake. It's the equivalent of "Best Games of 2013" for video games reviewers. Pointless rankings only written to make people take about it and gain viewers. I expected more out of the writing team.
Based on this feedback, we have decided to discontinue power ranks in future months.
-.-'
Since the purpose, which I do not agree with, was to stir up discussions I know you will continue writing them. But the team didn't put daily previews/reviews for WCS EU or WCS NA despite the fact that the first has vastly more viewers than the WCS KR. So I'm a little annoyed and puzzled that you would choose doing a Power Rank over these previews.
Edit : And just we are clear, the article is well written and I wouldn't expect any less of you and the team. I just question the priority and if this was a good choice of development.
On June 05 2013 18:35 Otolia wrote: Bringing this feature back is a terrible terrible mistake. It's the equivalent of "Best Games of 2013" for video games reviewers. Pointless rankings only written to make people take about it and gain viewers. I expected more out of the writing team.
On June 05 2013 18:35 Otolia wrote: Bringing this feature back is a terrible terrible mistake. It's the equivalent of "Best Games of 2013" for video games reviewers. Pointless rankings only written to make people take about it and gain viewers. I expected more out of the writing team.
Based on this feedback, we have decided to discontinue power ranks in future months.
-.-'
Since the purpose, which I do not agree with, was to stir up discussions I know you will continue writing them. But the team didn't put daily previews/reviews for WCS EU or WCS NA despite the fact that the first has vastly more viewers than the WCS KR. So I'm a little annoyed and puzzled that you would choose doing a Power Rank over these previews.
It may be shocking but doing a power rank is much more fun than doing daily previews and recaps for three regions of WCS. Also less taxing for a writing team consisting of 6 writers. And on another note I believe the GSL final had 200k viewers altohether including Afreeca and other streams
On June 05 2013 18:35 Otolia wrote: Bringing this feature back is a terrible terrible mistake. It's the equivalent of "Best Games of 2013" for video games reviewers. Pointless rankings only written to make people take about it and gain viewers. I expected more out of the writing team.
Based on this feedback, we have decided to discontinue power ranks in future months.
-.-'
Since the purpose, which I do not agree with, was to stir up discussions I know you will continue writing them. But the team didn't put daily previews/reviews for WCS EU or WCS NA despite the fact that the first has vastly more viewers than the WCS KR. So I'm a little annoyed and puzzled that you would choose doing a Power Rank over these previews.
Edit : And just we are clear, the article is well written and I wouldn't expect any less of you and the team. I just question the priority and if this was a good choice of development.
You're looking at Twitch viewers, WCS KR is viewed through other websites too, and it was by far the most watched.
I can't help but feel Life is still one of the best players in the world. Actually I think I'd still consider him the best, but unfortunately he hasn't really been very active this month. Anyway I think the list is pretty good, although I think roro and symbol should have been lower.
On June 05 2013 19:31 eurTsItniH wrote: I can't help but feel Life is still one of the best players in the world. Actually I think I'd still consider him the best, but unfortunately he hasn't really been very active this month. Anyway I think the list is pretty good, although I think roro and symbol should have been lower.
That's the inherent advantage of being a KeSPA player - with PL, there are more games to play more often against high level opponents, which makes creating a ranking much easier, and the ranking is more accurate as well
On June 05 2013 09:16 Arisen wrote: i disagree with soulkey vs innovation. People dick ride innovation way to hard. I think soulkey justified himself as a really great player under pressure and innovation proved that he needs to work on that part of his game. Innovation might have looked more dominant in the games he won, but I think soulkey proved to be the better all around player
What really? Soulkey literally looked like the worst zerg player I have seen play since 2011 in his series vs sos, and if innovation wouldn't have been like "fuck it I don't need a tank to own this noob, I'm fucking innovation" or atleast "fuck it i'll 11/11 4 times" soulkey would have never ever won that gsl. I don't think nerves were bogus issue but rather being so ridiculously good, I mean when he was up 3-0 he literally just killed everyone else who could win gsl that season and was up 3-0 against arguably the best zerg in the world, of course you are going to get arrogant at that point.
But overall inno has beaten far better players than soulkey, showed way better games, and just overall looked way way better as an rts player (no I don't think he is the best of all time. If someone at stx manages to explain to bogus that building a tank can be fine within this week he should stomp wcs s1 grand slam.
Nice power rating, given that hero had to go against way better players than mvp to win his wcs I do agree with him being number 10, as you said the other 9 were kinda obvious, though as much as I love flash I'm not sure if a sick proleague record justifies him loosing vs inno the way he did and especially loosing to parting.
On June 05 2013 17:14 1raxexpand wrote: Rain\Roro\Symbol shouldn't be above Life. Life could have easily 3-0ed any player that those players beat in code S/A. Life still has the best ZvT, and is very solid in other match ups. This list is too proleague biased.
Stop with the "could have... would have BS". This power rank is based on accomplishments not on wishful thinking. Last month Life didn't really do that good. This is the fact.
PS: I highly doubt Life wins a ZvZ vs Roro. Don't you remember the last time they meet? Roro destroyed Life easily...
But Life wiped the floor with Flash every time they meet. Flash was 2-0ed out of his group. How do you justify Flash on #3?
Have you seen Flash's record in R5 Proleague? He's easily in the top 5 in-form players, based both off gains on Aligulac and ELO.
Furthermore Life's victories over Flash in MLG and that Asian Indoor tournament were more than a month ago, they're hardly recent. I don't think anyone would dispute that Life has a better head-to-head record than Flash but based off last month's results, there is little we can say about Life and a lot going for Flash.
I'd say the top 4 in the rankings are accurate enough. Innovation has had a real steamer in the GSL, though I honestly believe Soulkey is the superior player to both Innovation and Flash over all three match ups. Flash's TvP in HOTS is looking quite shaky (while his TvT and TvZ are looking stellar), and I have similar doubts with Innovation's TvT (though yes he does have the world's best TvZ). Doesn't Soulkey have the best wins-loss ratio in Proleague, or is that Rain?
I'm pretty sure Rain has the best winrate in PL. Flash has a bit more wins but also much more matches played iirc. In percentage I think Rain is well ahead of everyone else in PL.
Yeah percentage/ratio-wise I had a feeling it was Rain (though from what I recall, Soulkey also has a pretty good percentage due to his low number of losses.)
2012-2013 Proleague/Statistics The best percentage with at least 10 matches played this season have: 1. BraVo: 8-3 - 73% 2. Rain: 33-14 - 70% 3. Zest 25-12 - 68% 4. INnoVation 33-16 - 67,35% 5. Flash 37-18 - 67,27% (that's really close, percentage wise) 6. sOs 27-14 - 65,9% 7. Soulkey 23-12 - 65,7% 8. s2 11-6 65% 9. free 22-13 62,9% 10. RorO 25-15 62,5%
With minimum 15 games played BraVo is out, Stats is in.
That 70% winning rate from Rain in a volatile game like SC2, damn.
And they still placed Flash before Rain....
Are you kidding? You do realize that the 70% comes from all his proleague games and not just this month right?
On June 05 2013 19:58 Grumbels wrote: soulkey beats innovation in the finals, gets second place to innovation in this ranking... gotta respect results yo
It frustrates me how many people are bitching about the power rank based on WCS alone. Proleague provides so much more context to the choices and makes more sense if you follow it as well.
I don't understand this list. How is 15-2 in best of one games more important than a 5th place finish or WCS EU championship regardless of opponents considering they're all pretty difficult?
On June 05 2013 20:31 Noobity wrote: I don't understand this list. How is 15-2 in best of one games more important than a 5th place finish or WCS EU championship regardless of opponents considering they're all pretty difficult?
The Flash bias is so old.
Regardless of opponents? I mean, are you seriously saying to just disregard how good the people they're playing are?
On June 05 2013 20:31 Noobity wrote: I don't understand this list. How is 15-2 in best of one games more important than a 5th place finish or WCS EU championship regardless of opponents considering they're all pretty difficult?
The Flash bias is so old.
It's not bias he's the 2nd best terran right now it's fact.
On June 05 2013 20:31 Noobity wrote: I don't understand this list. How is 15-2 in best of one games more important than a 5th place finish or WCS EU championship regardless of opponents considering they're all pretty difficult?
The Flash bias is so old.
Stephano got his ass kicked in Proleague. He started slumping after that beating he took. Also WCS America was dominated by EG-TL which is the last team in Proleague. And last but not least 3 out of 4 GSL semifinalists were Kespa players..So yeah, you see Proleague is a very important league. In this league the player with the most wins by far is...Flash. WCS EU is not that important. You got a Code B GSL player vs a player who got only 2 wins in Proleague and then left with his tail between his legs from Korea...
On June 05 2013 20:14 Mikelius wrote: It frustrates me how many people are bitching about the power rank based on WCS alone. Proleague provides so much more context to the choices and makes more sense if you follow it as well.
The problem with that logic is that half of the players don't play in proleague giving the ones that do a big advantage in these rankings.
On June 05 2013 20:31 Noobity wrote: I don't understand this list. How is 15-2 in best of one games more important than a 5th place finish or WCS EU championship regardless of opponents considering they're all pretty difficult?
The Flash bias is so old.
Stephano got his ass kicked in Proleague. He started slumping after that beating he took. Also WCS America was dominated by EG-TL which is the last team in Proleague. And last but not least 3 out of 4 GSL semifinalists were Kespa players..So yeah, you see Proleague is a very important league. In this league the player with the most wins by far is...Flash. WCS EU is not that important. You got a Code B GSL player vs a player who got only 2 wins in Proleague and then left with his tail between his legs from Korea...
By the way they shouldn't do a power ranking every month, it's such a bad idea. A power ranking should be very meaningful and definitive, if you have one every two months then you can live up to this much better than with a monthly one, where you would often have really strong players that just didn't do anything for that month in particular. I don't see how it's excusable to have e.g. two consecutive power rankings that are wildly different, since not that much can change in one month. Or to have top players ranked highly even if they didn't play any games.
And if you only do a power ranking every two months you have some space to make it, like, a top 15 or top 20, to give more players their due. You could also incorporate stuff like 'rising player' and such and look to the future. And maybe a power ranking specifically for foreigners, since there's a reason Blizzard has gone through the trouble of having various regional WCS tournaments: it's to support and highlight the foreigner scene and TL could use the power ranking to help with this.
RoRo is too high on the list. He didn't do that well in Proleague and also not in GSL vs Innovation. He should be rank 8/9 or something like that. Also Jangbi for cbnc.
On June 05 2013 19:58 Grumbels wrote: soulkey beats innovation in the finals, gets second place to innovation in this ranking... gotta respect results yo
Gosh how many pages of this will we get... ? One-series-ranking for the win heh ?
As pointed out by many, indeed, PR thread are insanely ridiculous haha !
(And I like the comments like "This is biased", of course this is biased, there's no truth in this.... Only good and argumented opinions against bad and fanboyism-filled opinions, but still opinions)
First things first Soulkey to me has proven that his mentality is stronger then that of Innovation, i supose with the proleague results counted in Innovation still got the better overall results. But this weekend i feel Soulkey again can beat Innovation but this time more convincingly. I also think over time Soulkey will improve more and become Kespa's best zerg kinda like at the end of Broodwar where he was just about to hit his peak until they switched over. (people tend to forget how good Soulkey was late BW)
Kinda sad Losira didn't make it but it does make sense, his ZvP has been lackluster for a long while and those sOs matches were awful then again that was both sides. I don't agree he had an "easy" path though in WCS Korea, that excuse is made to often. We have long past the time where we had players like Inca advancing, you make it to code S currently it means your prity damn good and in no way EASY, but allas no group of death then everything is lackluster and underhyped.
On June 05 2013 21:08 Lysanias wrote: Welcome back Power rank ! :D
First things first Soulkey to me has proven that his mentality is stronger then that of Innovation, i supose with the proleague results counted in Innovation still got the better overall results. But this weekend i feel Soulkey again can beat Innovation but this time more convincingly.
Well, INno road to the finals was more impressive though... Roflstomping Life, RorO, beating convincingly Flash and Symbol.
When you compare to Soulkey who looked a bit shaky and not that dominant in his own way...
But true, Soulkey had better nerves in the finals.
On June 05 2013 09:16 Arisen wrote: i disagree with soulkey vs innovation. People dick ride innovation way to hard. I think soulkey justified himself as a really great player under pressure and innovation proved that he needs to work on that part of his game. Innovation might have looked more dominant in the games he won, but I think soulkey proved to be the better all around player
Win rate against others. Not just their series. I think Inno has the highest win rate in a match up in Starcraft 2. 92.3% in TvZ before the finals. You have to consider the consistency of their games and also who they beat. (meh its in the OP).
On June 05 2013 21:08 Lysanias wrote: Welcome back Power rank ! :D
First things first Soulkey to me has proven that his mentality is stronger then that of Innovation, i supose with the proleague results counted in Innovation still got the better overall results. But this weekend i feel Soulkey again can beat Innovation but this time more convincingly.
Well, INno road to the finals was more impressive though... Roflstomping Life, RorO, beating convincingly Flash and Symbol.
When you compare to Soulkey who looked a bit shaky and not that dominant in his own way...
But true, Soulkey had better nerves in the finals.
True that he did, but Innovation is hardly the only one looking impressive until the finals hit, Squirtle looked scary as hell to and look what happend when MVP beat him and the hype past on. (Squirtle is still a great player ofc) Such is the way in Starcraft you will have to win in the end. And Innovation better do so this weekend if not, he's not worthy of the number 1 spot. He might play the best but his mentality is not the best (currently), a true number 1 has both
Innovation sure has better results in Proleague, so it makes sense in the end if we look at the full picture. I will save this for next month when Soulkey simply wins this Weekend.
On June 05 2013 21:08 Lysanias wrote: Welcome back Power rank ! :D
First things first Soulkey to me has proven that his mentality is stronger then that of Innovation, i supose with the proleague results counted in Innovation still got the better overall results. But this weekend i feel Soulkey again can beat Innovation but this time more convincingly.
Well, INno road to the finals was more impressive though... Roflstomping Life, RorO, beating convincingly Flash and Symbol.
When you compare to Soulkey who looked a bit shaky and not that dominant in his own way...
But true, Soulkey had better nerves in the finals.
True that he did, but Innovation is hardly the only one looking impressive until the finals hit, Squirtle looked scary as hell to and look what happend when MVP beat him and the hype past on. (Squirtle is still a great player ofc) Such is the way in Starcraft you will have to win in the end. And Innovation better do so this weekend if not, he's not worthy of the number 1 spot. He might play the best but his mentality is not the best (currently), a true number 1 has both
Innovation sure has better results in Proleague, so it makes sense in the end if we look at the full picture. I will save this for next month when Soulkey simply wins this Weekend.
By your logic that number 1 has both, then soulkey isn't really number 1 either. So why not give it to Innovation? Besides, it's a monthly matter, not as if this ranking determines how good he has been and will be for the rest of Sc2.
In my opinion, I also think that Innovation should be above Soulkey. That image at the bottom of Soulkey's paragraph is very hard to see even the second time. It does in fact sum up the last few games of the series nicely.
I'm not sure about having Life and Symbol so high up on the list, though.
Lol, in the asian indoor qualifiers sOs beat innovation, life, creatorprime among others in bo3... He barely lost to soulkey 3-4 in semifinals and he has been doing great in pro league. And above him in the ranking is players like: symbol, rain and roro. He should at least be top 5.
a great write up, very well researched, and doesnt seem to be biased.
personally i agree with this ranking for the most part, however i would put flash at number 2 over soulkey for the same reason that innovation is above soulkey. hes just simply a better player imo even if he hasnt just won the GSL.
i also think i would put RorO above Symbol, personally i've just been more impressed with the quality of RorO's games rather than Symbol's put thats kinda nit picky and neither here nor there.
GL with the future of the power ranking. i thoroughly enjoyed reading it every month in the BW days waiting for that one time where we might not see Flash and Jaedong at numbers 1 and 2. dont think that ever happened tho haha. cant rememer
Great ranking, totally agree. Also for people saying Kangho should be in it, as far as GSL is concerned I feel he got fairly easy groups so far, and didn't impress me much in it.
Very glad TL didn't put up the 1-2 foreigners required in the top 10 just to please fanboys. Flash is slightly high, but hey its a power ranking. Don't drop a match vs foreigners!
This list is bullcrap. Where is NaDa??? If this truly is a ranking of the most powerful in SC2, NaDa's body is evidence enough that he has the most power.
On June 05 2013 21:44 Big J wrote: So, based upon which evidence do we have that powerrank? Some guys drinking a beer and making a list?
It looks pretty arbitrary at this point apart from #1 and #2.
When will people understand this IS arbitrary ?
You completely have the right to disagree ! But better bring solid arguments then.
Well, the only arguments for number 3 and number 4 on this list are: "they do amazingly in proleague". And then you go to the arguments for number 1 and then add "unless they have to face someone that is actually a highcaliber player himself".
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL as well and has been in the last Code S and will be in the next one as well. That doesn't mean I think Keen should be on the list and number 3 and 4 not, but at this point, putting them over players who have achieved much more in Starcraft 2 and the last GSL but don't participate in proleague because they are on eSF like Symbol or Life (and do well in their respective teamleague - GSTL) and have been toplevel players for much, much longer is just blind fanboyism. And disregards anybody who doesn't play proleague.
pretty solid list, it's quite hard comparing now with the separated scenes. Especially for example PL beasts against players in WCS EU or NA.
Despite that i think hero doesn't belong, i wasn't impressed at all by his win it was more a total dissapointment how bad WCS NA was in general. Kind of the same goes for MVP and WCS EU. To me it feels like getting into premier league WCS KR is even harder than winning the hole thing in EU or NA, that may of course be a bit of an exageration but i don't think it's that far off. I'd put Life at #5 still as well, just because he dropped from the group of death and thus didn't get to show much it's not making him worse. He could as well be #1 still, it's just really hard to judge someone when they drop out of WCS a bit earlier and don't play in PL. (i don't care much for GSTL)
I like the PowerRank Format, it is certainly different from other rankings because it not only takes measurable data like results, wins, etc, but also that "style"-factor (or how well a player played) into account. I hope it will continue like this, not like some of the heavily biased ones in the Broodwar-past, like the "please loose" comment on Nal_rA and Sea mysteriously claiming the No1-spot out of nowhere, without any results - if you don't count playing in TL Attack as result...
Im glad Hero got there. More deserved than MVP. He looked way too shaky on his overall road to victory. While Hero looked dominant. Maybe not the best korean opponents, but championship material at any tournament outside Korea. While MVP is a matter of skill, which is good right now but not his best, Hero's is a matter of emotions, because we know he can beat anyone when he is calm and focused.
On June 05 2013 21:44 Big J wrote: So, based upon which evidence do we have that powerrank? Some guys drinking a beer and making a list?
It looks pretty arbitrary at this point apart from #1 and #2.
When will people understand this IS arbitrary ?
You completely have the right to disagree ! But better bring solid arguments then.
Well, the only arguments for number 3 and number 4 on this list are: "they do amazingly in proleague". And then you go to the arguments for number 1 and then add "unless they have to face someone that is actually a highcaliber player himself".
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL as well and has been in the last Code S and will be in the next one as well. That doesn't mean I think Keen should be on the list and number 3 and 4 not, but at this point, putting them over players who have achieved much more in Starcraft 2 and the last GSL but don't participate in proleague because they are on eSF like Symbol or Life (and do well in their respective teamleague - GSTL) and have been toplevel players for much, much longer is just blind fanboyism. And disregards anybody who doesn't play proleague.
And doing amazingly well in Proleague is meaningless ? I doubt many people would agree...
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL, or sort of : I mean, all killing NSH isn't quite the same feat as all-killing CJ Entus or even EG-TL (imo) in Proleague, but it gives a nice boost to wincount. Otherwise, he went out of GSL 2012 Season 5 in the Ro32, same for this season... while Soulkey and Inno are already ahead (Soulkey already made 2 Ro8 and a title, INnoVatioN a finals, a Ro8 and a Ro4...), with strong runs, sOs already made a Ro4, RorO won the last GSL and got another Ro8 appearance, Symbol another Ro4 which adds up to a long list of strong results recently, PartinG a few Ro8, etc. Only HerO imo is debatable...
Power rank isn't about a whole career achievement (even on that, KeeN hasn't achieved as much..., only a Ro8, though he's been there consistently and for a long time), but recent results/showing (what was won, and how).
As an example, Life is a very high caliber player, but can you show what did he accomplished over the last month - 2 months period ?
I do agree that some players don't get the same exposure because they do not compete in Proleague, but Proleague has far more matches between teams of players that prepare quite exclusively for it, and you can't deny that it brings a lot to the table when comparing players (while GSTL for example has much less matches, and a team like NSH kind of drags down the level, although, do not misinterpret, there are excellent teams in the GSTL, but less focused on the team league format than proleague teams...).
So no, it's not fanboyism. You must remember what the PR is based on (hint : it doesn't really care about GSL Open Seasons, but rather about really recent events) and not overrate unecessarily GSTL over proleague, that's ridiculous.
On June 05 2013 21:08 Lysanias wrote: Welcome back Power rank ! :D
First things first Soulkey to me has proven that his mentality is stronger then that of Innovation, i supose with the proleague results counted in Innovation still got the better overall results. But this weekend i feel Soulkey again can beat Innovation but this time more convincingly.
Well, INno road to the finals was more impressive though... Roflstomping Life, RorO, beating convincingly Flash and Symbol.
When you compare to Soulkey who looked a bit shaky and not that dominant in his own way...
But true, Soulkey had better nerves in the finals.
True that he did, but Innovation is hardly the only one looking impressive until the finals hit, Squirtle looked scary as hell to and look what happend when MVP beat him and the hype past on. (Squirtle is still a great player ofc) Such is the way in Starcraft you will have to win in the end. And Innovation better do so this weekend if not, he's not worthy of the number 1 spot. He might play the best but his mentality is not the best (currently), a true number 1 has both
Innovation sure has better results in Proleague, so it makes sense in the end if we look at the full picture. I will save this for next month when Soulkey simply wins this Weekend.
A true number one is just someone thats better than the other numbers, there is no sacred rule.
On June 05 2013 22:50 alukarD wrote: Im glad Hero got there. More deserved than MVP. He looked way too shaky on his overall road to victory. While Hero looked dominant. Maybe not the best korean opponents, but championship material at any tournament outside Korea. While MVP is a matter of skill, which is good right now but not his best, Hero's is a matter of emotions, because we know he can beat anyone when he is calm and focused.
Mvp was a matter of serious injury which seems to be fixed now.(or at least we hear less about it) He barely could play for a time and lost his passion for a while because of that. Nerves and mental state are also part of the job so i don't think you can simply gloss over it and say "well its just emotions, he can beat anyone when calm" Oh and except 1 bo3 against Lucifron Mvp dominated WCS europe so while i have no watched WCS America, i doubt very much Hero dominated harder considering the results.
On June 05 2013 22:50 alukarD wrote: Im glad Hero got there. More deserved than MVP. He looked way too shaky on his overall road to victory. While Hero looked dominant. Maybe not the best korean opponents, but championship material at any tournament outside Korea. While MVP is a matter of skill, which is good right now but not his best, Hero's is a matter of emotions, because we know he can beat anyone when he is calm and focused.
Mvp was a matter of serious injury which seems to be fixed now.(or at least we hear less about it) He barely could play for a time and lost his passion for a while because of that. Nerves and mental state are also part of the job so i don't think you can simply gloss over it and say "well its just emotions, he can beat anyone when calm" Oh and except 1 bo3 against Lucifron Mvp dominated WCS europe so while i have no watched WCS America, i doubt very much Hero dominated harder considering the results.
Mvp hasn't done anything in addition to winning WCS EU, whereas HerO won WCS AM and has been doing pretty well in Proleague. The opponents in PL are generally much harder than WCS AM/EU, so I think this deserves a fair amount if consideration.
Losira or Kangho (whatevr) did'nt impress me for a looooooooooong time and i've been watching like 95% of all GSL and GSTL games since the very begining. Lately he feels more like a super fast almost too hectic Zerg that is just spamming Zerglings. idk ... i cant feel the hype arround him these days. So yeah, I'm totally fine with him not being mentioned in PR. If the list was longer, maybe up to rank 15 I'm not even sure if he would be in there. Hero on 10 is totally fine and he deserves it so bad! He is kicking aZZ and not just here and there. Since the fist game he has played in GSTL under the oGs flag on Xelnaga caverns i knew he would become the 7th dragon if you know what im talking about! Hero is out of some special material, you cant deny that!
i think waxangel should have done this because he runs unofficial global champion (UGC) and he therefore obviously understands that the player who wins is better he understands that soulkey beat innovation beat symbol and symbol might have beaten sos since he took two games off innovation and soulkey barely beat parting who lost to roro who lost to innovation and kangho beat bomber but lost to sos who lost to soulkey, and kangho barely lost to sos so it should be assumed hes slightly worse and parting should be above symbol and below roro since he also took two games off of soulkey but lost to roro later so we know therefore that the top 8 of the spots are soulkey innovation sybmol sos kangho roro parting bomber
and then for nine and ten we should have the eu and then the murica champions snice they both had to beat decent players to win and eu has obviously better and more koreans then murica except murica was easy and koreans wanted to play there because they like lag so the full list is: soulkey innovation sybmol sos kangho roro parting bomber mvp hero
On June 05 2013 12:07 snakeeyez wrote: I would ask though why is immvp not higher considering he is arguably the most accomplished player in SC 2 and even recently made EU wcs. I do think proleague has the highest level games now, and the top kespa players are the best at SC 2 now.
I would hazard this is your first real power-rank. Power-rank is kind of an melding of the past few months of results. The past month is given the most weight (If I had to put some real rough numbers on it say 60% past month, 30% month before 10% two months before). Generally you look at the previous power-rank, see how those people have done this month, move them up or down based on that.
MVP may be the most accomplished player in SC2, but he isn't anywhere near the top of the heap in the last three months. WCS EU isn't exactly representative of the strongest competition.
I like how this ranking are based by Proleague results and awesome games by player overall rather than individual league results. INnoVation is above everybody in quality of his games!
On June 05 2013 23:47 Jenia6109 wrote: I like how this ranking are based by Proleague results and awesome games by player overall rather than individual league results. INnoVation is above everybody in quality of his games!
yeah because life and symbol play in proleague and TY is in there
Flash is 100% a overrated player (because of his BW history) and Life should be still in TOP 5 i mean everyone knows Life's ZvX's are overall better than Symbol's aka alliner zerg (i love Symbol but cmon..-.-) and lets look at MVP's and Hero's resuls.. everyone knows that WCS NA was a joke and MVP had to play with his EU-KR lag.. if u asking me: MVP > HerO
This whole article seems way to biased to proleague. Dont get me wrong I love watching proleague but if you are going to make a power ranking you should include everything..
GSL (WCS/EU/KR/US) GSTL Proleague
and not just progleague results as some ppl already mentioned its not fair since ESF players cant play in proleague
On June 06 2013 00:01 monsta wrote: Flash is 100% a overrated player (because of his BW history) and Life should be still in TOP 5 i mean everyone knows Life's ZvX's are overall better than Symbol's aka alliner zerg (i love Symbol but cmon..-.-) and lets look at MVP's and Hero's resuls.. everyone knows that WCS NA was a joke and MVP had to play with his EU-KR lag.. if u asking me: MVP > HerO
Hero does not belong to the top 10 players what so ever! He's TL alright but for sure not even near the top 10 .. As for INnoVation I do believe he's more constant compared to SK thou he lost GSL finals .. Life I think deserve to be higher on the list .. But well done anyway guys!
On June 05 2013 22:12 lichter wrote: This list is bullcrap. Where is NaDa??? If this truly is a ranking of the most powerful in SC2, NaDa's body is evidence enough that he has the most power.
Finally a complaint post that I totally agree with.
On June 06 2013 00:19 JorSharky wrote: Hero does not belong to the top 10 players what so ever! He's TL alright but for sure not even near the top 10 .. As for INnoVation I do believe he's more constant compared to SK thou he lost GSL finals .. Life I think deserve to be higher on the list .. But well done anyway guys!
Can you please specify who outshined HerO based on results/quality of games in May and - to a lesser degree - in April?
On June 06 2013 00:19 JorSharky wrote: Hero does not belong to the top 10 players what so ever! He's TL alright but for sure not even near the top 10 .. As for INnoVation I do believe he's more constant compared to SK thou he lost GSL finals .. Life I think deserve to be higher on the list .. But well done anyway guys!
On June 06 2013 00:19 JorSharky wrote: Hero does not belong to the top 10 players what so ever! He's TL alright but for sure not even near the top 10 .. As for INnoVation I do believe he's more constant compared to SK thou he lost GSL finals .. Life I think deserve to be higher on the list .. But well done anyway guys!
On June 06 2013 00:19 JorSharky wrote: Hero does not belong to the top 10 players what so ever! He's TL alright but for sure not even near the top 10 .. As for INnoVation I do believe he's more constant compared to SK thou he lost GSL finals .. Life I think deserve to be higher on the list .. But well done anyway guys!
Can you please specify who outshined HerO based on results/quality of games in May and - to a lesser degree - in April?
On June 05 2013 20:31 Noobity wrote: I don't understand this list. How is 15-2 in best of one games more important than a 5th place finish or WCS EU championship regardless of opponents considering they're all pretty difficult?
The Flash bias is so old.
Stephano got his ass kicked in Proleague. He started slumping after that beating he took. Also WCS America was dominated by EG-TL which is the last team in Proleague. And last but not least 3 out of 4 GSL semifinalists were Kespa players..So yeah, you see Proleague is a very important league. In this league the player with the most wins by far is...Flash. WCS EU is not that important. You got a Code B GSL player vs a player who got only 2 wins in Proleague and then left with his tail between his legs from Korea...
At the time Stephano was in Proleague, he managed to qualify for Code S and had a good 50% win rate, whereas Hero wasn't and had an awful record in PL.
Oh look - it's like the top 8 GSL finishers minus KangHo and Bomber and plus Life, Rain and HerO? Two of which got knocked out in the group stage. At least HerO won his WCS region. This seems a little biased. Fuck I would have considered TLO for this list. Oh wait but he's not Korean? C'mon how did you even come up with this. It seems a lot of these people just got in on their IDs.
On June 06 2013 01:27 Arghmyliver wrote: Oh look - it's like the top 8 GSL finishers minus KangHo and Bomber and plus Life, Rain and HerO? Two of whom got knocked out in the group stage. At least HerO won his WCS region. This seems a little biased. Fuck I would have considered TLO for this list. Oh wait but he's not Korean? C'mon how did you even come up with this. It seems a lot of these people just got in on their IDs.
.... TLO does not rank close in power to any nominees/nominated mentioned in the article.
I think a lot of people underestimate how important Proleague is for evaluating power rankings. Just look at the Kespa MLG qualifier results and behold the depth of competition in PL.
That aside, I do agree with most of the article, although it's a personal opinion of mine that Life should be higher than Symbol/RoRo still.
On June 06 2013 01:27 Arghmyliver wrote: Oh look - it's like the top 8 GSL finishers minus KangHo and Bomber and plus Life, Rain and HerO? Two of which got knocked out in the group stage. At least HerO won his WCS region. This seems a little biased. Fuck I would have considered TLO for this list. Oh wait but he's not Korean? C'mon how did you even come up with this. It seems a lot of these people just got in on their IDs.
On June 05 2013 20:31 Noobity wrote: I don't understand this list. How is 15-2 in best of one games more important than a 5th place finish or WCS EU championship regardless of opponents considering they're all pretty difficult?
The Flash bias is so old.
Stephano got his ass kicked in Proleague. He started slumping after that beating he took. Also WCS America was dominated by EG-TL which is the last team in Proleague. And last but not least 3 out of 4 GSL semifinalists were Kespa players..So yeah, you see Proleague is a very important league. In this league the player with the most wins by far is...Flash. WCS EU is not that important. You got a Code B GSL player vs a player who got only 2 wins in Proleague and then left with his tail between his legs from Korea...
Well mvp = code B is bs and you know it. Stephano qualified for code S the same season so we know a mvp is at least code S. Also Stephano did not do that bad in pl.
Thank you for not chickening out and putting a lesser player than innovation at #1 just because he won the GSL. It's no question to anyone that ACTUALLY follows sc2 and majority of proleague and tourneys (instead of just tunning in for GSL semis/finals) that innovation is the better player. Also surprised you guys didn't wait until the seasonal finals to write this, should be very telling. Hopefully when innovation wins that handily, people will understand
On June 05 2013 20:31 Noobity wrote: I don't understand this list. How is 15-2 in best of one games more important than a 5th place finish or WCS EU championship regardless of opponents considering they're all pretty difficult?
The Flash bias is so old.
Stephano got his ass kicked in Proleague. He started slumping after that beating he took. Also WCS America was dominated by EG-TL which is the last team in Proleague. And last but not least 3 out of 4 GSL semifinalists were Kespa players..So yeah, you see Proleague is a very important league. In this league the player with the most wins by far is...Flash. WCS EU is not that important. You got a Code B GSL player vs a player who got only 2 wins in Proleague and then left with his tail between his legs from Korea...
Well mvp = code B is bs and you know it. Stephano qualified for code S the same season so we know a mvp is at least code S. Also Stephano did not do that bad in pl.
On June 06 2013 01:27 Arghmyliver wrote: Oh look - it's like the top 8 GSL finishers minus KangHo and Bomber and plus Life, Rain and HerO? Two of which got knocked out in the group stage. At least HerO won his WCS region. This seems a little biased. Fuck I would have considered TLO for this list. Oh wait but he's not Korean? C'mon how did you even come up with this. It seems a lot of these people just got in on their IDs.
Lfao, even TLO would not find himself in this powerank, you're not a fanboi at all as I can see
On June 06 2013 01:27 Arghmyliver wrote: Oh look - it's like the top 8 GSL finishers minus KangHo and Bomber and plus Life, Rain and HerO? Two of which got knocked out in the group stage. At least HerO won his WCS region. This seems a little biased. Fuck I would have considered TLO for this list. Oh wait but he's not Korean? C'mon how did you even come up with this. It seems a lot of these people just got in on their IDs.
Lfao, even TLO would not find himself in this powerank, you're not a fanboi at all as I can see
I said "considered" - he did 2-0 the longtime "best foreigner." I think a lot of people who could have made the list (or at least honourable mention) missed out because they don't live in Korea.
On June 06 2013 01:27 Arghmyliver wrote: Oh look - it's like the top 8 GSL finishers minus KangHo and Bomber and plus Life, Rain and HerO? Two of which got knocked out in the group stage. At least HerO won his WCS region. This seems a little biased. Fuck I would have considered TLO for this list. Oh wait but he's not Korean? C'mon how did you even come up with this. It seems a lot of these people just got in on their IDs.
Lfao, even TLO would not find himself in this powerank, you're not a fanboi at all as I can see
I said "considered" - he did 2-0 the longtime "best foreigner." I think a lot of people who could have made the list (or at least honourable mention) missed out because they don't live in Korea.
That's because all the best players are Korean. It's not a coincidence. There are no foreigners right now who are even close to competing with the people on this list.
Sorry to destroy the dreams of foreign-biased fans, but it's about time that such race-driven devotion is replaced by skill-driven appreciation. Foreigners really haven't been relevant in top competition for a long time. Just look at EG-TL's results, even with the Korean players on their team.
On June 06 2013 01:27 Arghmyliver wrote: Oh look - it's like the top 8 GSL finishers minus KangHo and Bomber and plus Life, Rain and HerO? Two of which got knocked out in the group stage. At least HerO won his WCS region. This seems a little biased. Fuck I would have considered TLO for this list. Oh wait but he's not Korean? C'mon how did you even come up with this. It seems a lot of these people just got in on their IDs.
Lfao, even TLO would not find himself in this powerank, you're not a fanboi at all as I can see
I said "considered" - he did 2-0 the longtime "best foreigner." I think a lot of people who could have made the list (or at least honourable mention) missed out because they don't live in Korea.
That's because all the best players are Korean. It's not a coincidence. There are no foreigners right now who are even close to competing with the people on this list.
Sorry to destroy the dreams of foreign-biased fans, but it's about time that such race-driven devotion is replaced by skill-driven appreciation. Foreigners really haven't been relevant in top competition for a long time. Just look at EG-TL's results, even with the Korean players on their team.
Are there any non-Korean EG-TL players in Korea right now? I'm sorry - but if you say "Korean's are the best" and Koreans only compete against themselves how does the paradigm ever shift? It's a vicious cycle. You are just dicounting the achievements of those who - for whatever reason - don't have the means to displace their entire lives to Korea indefinitely.
we'll see how innovation rebounds. If he continues to dominate and the GSL finals turns out be a bump in the road, this power rank is going to look prescient. if he starts slumping and his unstoppable TvZ macro turns or to be just too vulnerable to all-ins, this is going to look foolish.
On June 06 2013 01:27 Arghmyliver wrote: Oh look - it's like the top 8 GSL finishers minus KangHo and Bomber and plus Life, Rain and HerO? Two of whom got knocked out in the group stage. At least HerO won his WCS region. This seems a little biased. Fuck I would have considered TLO for this list. Oh wait but he's not Korean? C'mon how did you even come up with this. It seems a lot of these people just got in on their IDs.
.... TLO does not rank close in power to any nominees/nominated mentioned in the article.
I think a lot of people underestimate how important Proleague is for evaluating power rankings. Just look at the Kespa MLG qualifier results and behold the depth of competition in PL.
That aside, I do agree with most of the article, although it's a personal opinion of mine that Life should be higher than Symbol/RoRo still.
Once again, the problem with evaluating Proleague so high in the power rankings is that half of the players don't participate in it. I know there is nothing to do about it (yet) but i can't help but feel it completely unfair to the ESF players.
On June 05 2013 20:43 DustbinBieber wrote: 6 out of ten are KespA btw (not counting PartinG) Including top 4
heheheheheeh
It is interesting. However it shows how wrong elephant theory was. Also aren't you ashamed of your nickname?
:D I'm not. Getting hard to notice that it's a very far-fetched modification of Dustin Browder, I love mocking this guy.
ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM YO
Please don't talk about that horrendous article. That piece of writing simply destroyed what should be a ton of "fresh progamers" joining sc2 and turned it into 1sided cockfight without end. (hint, there are no real "ESF fans")
I don't know why everyone is going apeshit about this article. Even though I don't agree with everything written here, I still like it and the way it is written.
Also, about Innovation and Soulkey, for me, both players deserve first place, and could probably share it, so in the end, it really doesn't matter who is first or who is second for me.
hm counting the martial arts qualifier i would have put Life above roro since he didnt perform well during the last round of proleague. Soulkey vs Innovation is arguable, but i guess because of innovations dominance(andgames that look very dominant) one could put him above soulkey. But some people definitely look into the scores of soulkeys series too much. He always went ahead in the series(2-0 in the bo5) during the gsl in dominating fashion and dropped 2 maps afterwards. He even said himself in interviews that he got a little careless after getting a lead. Soulkey doesnt look that worse than innovation, especially considering the fact that the gsl casters expected soulkey to win. All in all a good power ranking.
On June 06 2013 02:02 ffadicted wrote: Thank you for not chickening out and putting a lesser player than innovation at #1 just because he won the GSL. It's no question to anyone that ACTUALLY follows sc2 and majority of proleague and tourneys (instead of just tunning in for GSL semis/finals) that innovation is the better player. Also surprised you guys didn't wait until the seasonal finals to write this, should be very telling. Hopefully when innovation wins that handily, people will understand
Well,he hasn't won anything yet,and you can't be #1 if you are not a champion.He has to win something soon,ideally the season finals.
This is just ridiculous reasoning for the ranking: When it comes down to it, Soulkey may be the GSL champion, but Innovation was just the more impressive player in May. Think of it this way: you have to bet your life on either Soulkey or Innovation in a bo1 against an arbitrary player. Who would you choose?
You could make an argument for choosing Flash (or any number of players) over Soulkey with that reasoning (heck Flash beat Soulkey in the GSL this season). And it would be just as wrong.
But what happened here is that Soulkey got slapped in the face, after it was arbitrarily decided that his win wasn't good enough, that somehow he can be ranked #2 after becoming a GSL champion by defeating the man in the finals who you ranked #1 .
How is anyone supposed to achieve #1 if they can't do it by defeating the #1 player in a best of 7 series for the most prestigious title in E-Sports? And it isn't like this is one series, both players defeated high quality opponents round after round in order to reach the finals.
Simply put, the definition of the word better was ignored here when Innovation was picked over Soulkey (by definition of the word better, the better player always wins).
Outside of the GSL, Innovation gets used more in Proleague, but their win rates are similar, at 67% for Innovation and 66% for Soulkey.
Finally, this statement really irks me [i]"It seems quite harsh that all of this would be negated by the difference of just one game, Innovation was one game away from winning, but he was there three times! The bias is such a slap in the fact to Soulkey, who remained calm and tore apart Innovation.
The ability to finish is important. So is the ability to remain calm when behind. Soulkey showed it. It was absent in Innovation.
Until Innovation is as calm under pressure and can finish like Soulkey, Soulkey is the better player by definition, because he defeated Innovation in a competitive setting. That is how the English language works.
bet·ter 1 (btr) adj. Comparative of good. 1. Greater in excellence or higher in quality. 2. More useful, suitable, or desirable: found a better way to go; a suit with a better fit than that one. 3. More highly skilled or adept: I am better at math than English. 4. Greater or larger: argued for the better part of an hour. 5. More advantageous or favorable; improved: a better chance of success. 6. Healthier or more fit than before: The patient is better today.
On June 05 2013 20:31 Noobity wrote: I don't understand this list. How is 15-2 in best of one games more important than a 5th place finish or WCS EU championship regardless of opponents considering they're all pretty difficult?
The Flash bias is so old.
Stephano got his ass kicked in Proleague. He started slumping after that beating he took. Also WCS America was dominated by EG-TL which is the last team in Proleague. And last but not least 3 out of 4 GSL semifinalists were Kespa players..So yeah, you see Proleague is a very important league. In this league the player with the most wins by far is...Flash. WCS EU is not that important. You got a Code B GSL player vs a player who got only 2 wins in Proleague and then left with his tail between his legs from Korea...
Well mvp = code B is bs and you know it. Stephano qualified for code S the same season so we know a mvp is at least code S. Also Stephano did not do that bad in pl.
Stephano got a seed in Code S
that was the season before. He qualified the next season through the U&D. No foreigner would have the time & and interest to fight from code B just to prove that they are code S level, nor should they.
it's a no brainer that PL has become the benchmark for ranking with consistently 7 (!) team matches almost every week with like 80% of the best players. I dont know why you guys even complain lol
Besides, I dont have much of a problem with HerO's placement. Not counting that NA thingy, he looks decent in PL lately, beating RorO and other dudes. If any, JangBi shoulda taken that spot as he has been rapidly improving and winning (xcept that terrible allin against Flash). LosirA played some close series cuz his opponents did a terrible job and, just like 99% of esf players,, he didnt play much starcraft. Life is still an outlier, I know that & you know that
On June 06 2013 01:27 Arghmyliver wrote: Oh look - it's like the top 8 GSL finishers minus KangHo and Bomber and plus Life, Rain and HerO? Two of whom got knocked out in the group stage. At least HerO won his WCS region. This seems a little biased. Fuck I would have considered TLO for this list. Oh wait but he's not Korean? C'mon how did you even come up with this. It seems a lot of these people just got in on their IDs.
.... TLO does not rank close in power to any nominees/nominated mentioned in the article.
I think a lot of people underestimate how important Proleague is for evaluating power rankings. Just look at the Kespa MLG qualifier results and behold the depth of competition in PL.
That aside, I do agree with most of the article, although it's a personal opinion of mine that Life should be higher than Symbol/RoRo still.
Once again, the problem with evaluating Proleague so high in the power rankings is that half of the players don't participate in it. I know there is nothing to do about it (yet) but i can't help but feel it completely unfair to the ESF players.
If you read closely, GSTL is actually mentioned in both esF players' entries. Unfortunately, neither player here did well in GSTL at all.
On June 05 2013 21:44 Big J wrote: So, based upon which evidence do we have that powerrank? Some guys drinking a beer and making a list?
It looks pretty arbitrary at this point apart from #1 and #2.
When will people understand this IS arbitrary ?
You completely have the right to disagree ! But better bring solid arguments then.
Well, the only arguments for number 3 and number 4 on this list are: "they do amazingly in proleague". And then you go to the arguments for number 1 and then add "unless they have to face someone that is actually a highcaliber player himself".
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL as well and has been in the last Code S and will be in the next one as well. That doesn't mean I think Keen should be on the list and number 3 and 4 not, but at this point, putting them over players who have achieved much more in Starcraft 2 and the last GSL but don't participate in proleague because they are on eSF like Symbol or Life (and do well in their respective teamleague - GSTL) and have been toplevel players for much, much longer is just blind fanboyism. And disregards anybody who doesn't play proleague.
And doing amazingly well in Proleague is meaningless ? I doubt many people would agree...
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL, or sort of : I mean, all killing NSH isn't quite the same feat as all-killing CJ Entus or even EG-TL (imo) in Proleague, but it gives a nice boost to wincount. Otherwise, he went out of GSL 2012 Season 5 in the Ro32, same for this season... while Soulkey and Inno are already ahead (Soulkey already made 2 Ro8 and a title, INnoVatioN a finals, a Ro8 and a Ro4...), with strong runs, sOs already made a Ro4, RorO won the last GSL and got another Ro8 appearance, Symbol another Ro4 which adds up to a long list of strong results recently, PartinG a few Ro8, etc. Only HerO imo is debatable...
Power rank isn't about a whole career achievement (even on that, KeeN hasn't achieved as much..., only a Ro8, though he's been there consistently and for a long time), but recent results/showing (what was won, and how).
As an example, Life is a very high caliber player, but can you show what did he accomplished over the last month - 2 months period ?
I do agree that some players don't get the same exposure because they do not compete in Proleague, but Proleague has far more matches between teams of players that prepare quite exclusively for it, and you can't deny that it brings a lot to the table when comparing players (while GSTL for example has much less matches, and a team like NSH kind of drags down the level, although, do not misinterpret, there are excellent teams in the GSTL, but less focused on the team league format than proleague teams...).
So no, it's not fanboyism. You must remember what the PR is based on (hint : it doesn't really care about GSL Open Seasons, but rather about really recent events) and not overrate unecessarily GSTL over proleague, that's ridiculous.
You don't consider Brazil a top4 national team, when they go out in the Ro32 or Ro16 in a football world championsship, no matter how many Copa America and Friendlies and Confederations Cups they won recently. And same goes for Flash and Rain. They are not top4 recently, if they get stomped in the Ro32 (where we are back to the Keen comparison) and Ro16. Not even if you are in a group of death, because top4 means that you are expected to make it out of such a group, if only one guy is ranked higher in same group.
Proleague is a nice measure for consistency. But winning a Ro8 match in the GSL is surely a harder thing to do than collecting wins against a bunch of Code A wannabes with the occasional Code S player mixed in.
What has Life done in the last two months? Well, does powerrank focus on the last two months? Because then there is no reason whatsoever why the top5 of the powerrank should contain a single player who wasn't good enough for the Ro8 in the number one tournament by far in the last months and the top4 should probably be Innovation, Soulkey, Symbol and sOs before even considering anyone else to make it in the top10. If however the powerrank does not focus on just the most recent toplevel (as in, there is nothing above this league) accomplishments, then I don't see why flash and rain should be top4, seeing how they are lacking good finishes, compared to many other players.
That's why I say it's fanboyism. The only argument for flash and rain are proleague results. I believe that they should be on the list, due to how good they obviously are. But there are just players who deliver more at this point and should be above them. In some cases really obvious choices (e.g.: sOs. Same stats as Rain/flash in proleague, much better in the GSL; beating the guy who beat flash) I mean, what is going to happen if they deliver some real results? If flash makes it to the Ro8 in the OSL? Youd' have to rank him above the OSL winner then, as you already ranked him 3rd without having a good finish...
On June 05 2013 11:31 shin777 wrote: Hero #10 instead of MVP? Non-sense. WCS NA this season had weakest members of all and all koreans who participated in WCS NA were the ones who had no chance in korea. Well. Hero wonders why there were so little people on WCS NA final and why he didn't get loud cheers or why he didn't feel like winning a championship. It's because WCS NA was not impressive or fun at all and top 8 members were all boring to watch compared to WCS KR or WCS EU. Just watch. WCS NA will get knocked around so hard in this week's season final. The only reason Hero is even on this list is because This is teamliquid site and Hero is their team. I am sorry but no. Hero shouldn't even be on top 20.
Look at Proleague and eat your words. HerO belongs on this list, and he will prove it at the world finals.
On June 06 2013 03:34 UpATree wrote: I really want to see an innovation soulkey rematch, this time innovation makes some tanks.
instead of 2rax cheesing and 2base hellbat drops all the time?
It's so lol, the story of this finals was two guys cheesing each other or playing very damage oriented builds (two 2rax, 3hellbat drop builds, one roach/hydra build, one 3base speedroach/speedbaneling 1-1 timing, two 2base baneling busts). It's not like soulkey cheesed against a guy who played straight up macro builds. Innovation did more than his fair share of not playing macrogames.
On June 05 2013 21:44 Big J wrote: So, based upon which evidence do we have that powerrank? Some guys drinking a beer and making a list?
It looks pretty arbitrary at this point apart from #1 and #2.
When will people understand this IS arbitrary ?
You completely have the right to disagree ! But better bring solid arguments then.
Well, the only arguments for number 3 and number 4 on this list are: "they do amazingly in proleague". And then you go to the arguments for number 1 and then add "unless they have to face someone that is actually a highcaliber player himself".
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL as well and has been in the last Code S and will be in the next one as well. That doesn't mean I think Keen should be on the list and number 3 and 4 not, but at this point, putting them over players who have achieved much more in Starcraft 2 and the last GSL but don't participate in proleague because they are on eSF like Symbol or Life (and do well in their respective teamleague - GSTL) and have been toplevel players for much, much longer is just blind fanboyism. And disregards anybody who doesn't play proleague.
And doing amazingly well in Proleague is meaningless ? I doubt many people would agree...
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL, or sort of : I mean, all killing NSH isn't quite the same feat as all-killing CJ Entus or even EG-TL (imo) in Proleague, but it gives a nice boost to wincount. Otherwise, he went out of GSL 2012 Season 5 in the Ro32, same for this season... while Soulkey and Inno are already ahead (Soulkey already made 2 Ro8 and a title, INnoVatioN a finals, a Ro8 and a Ro4...), with strong runs, sOs already made a Ro4, RorO won the last GSL and got another Ro8 appearance, Symbol another Ro4 which adds up to a long list of strong results recently, PartinG a few Ro8, etc. Only HerO imo is debatable...
Power rank isn't about a whole career achievement (even on that, KeeN hasn't achieved as much..., only a Ro8, though he's been there consistently and for a long time), but recent results/showing (what was won, and how).
As an example, Life is a very high caliber player, but can you show what did he accomplished over the last month - 2 months period ?
I do agree that some players don't get the same exposure because they do not compete in Proleague, but Proleague has far more matches between teams of players that prepare quite exclusively for it, and you can't deny that it brings a lot to the table when comparing players (while GSTL for example has much less matches, and a team like NSH kind of drags down the level, although, do not misinterpret, there are excellent teams in the GSTL, but less focused on the team league format than proleague teams...).
So no, it's not fanboyism. You must remember what the PR is based on (hint : it doesn't really care about GSL Open Seasons, but rather about really recent events) and not overrate unecessarily GSTL over proleague, that's ridiculous.
You don't consider Brazil a top4 national team, when they go out in the Ro32 or Ro16 in a football world championsship, no matter how many Copa America and Friendlies and Confederations Cups they won recently. And same goes for Flash and Rain. They are not top4 recently, if they get stomped in the Ro32 (where we are back to the Keen comparison) and Ro16. Not even if you are in a group of death, because top4 means that you are expected to make it out of such a group, if only one guy is ranked higher in same group.
Proleague is a nice measure for consistency. But winning a Ro8 match in the GSL is surely a harder thing to do than collecting wins against a bunch of Code A wannabes with the occasional Code S player mixed in.
What has Life done in the last two months? Well, does powerrank focus on the last two months? Because then there is no reason whatsoever why the top5 of the powerrank should contain a single player who wasn't good enough for the Ro8 in the number one tournament by far in the last months and the top4 should probably be Innovation, Soulkey, Symbol and sOs before even considering anyone else to make it in the top10. If however the powerrank does not focus on just the most recent toplevel (as in, there is nothing above this league) accomplishments, then I don't see why flash and rain should be top4, seeing how they are lacking good finishes, compared to many other players.
That's why I say it's fanboyism. The only argument for flash and rain are proleague results. I believe that they should be on the list, due to how good they obviously are. But there are just players who deliver more at this point and should be above them. In some cases really obvious choices (e.g.: sOs. Same stats as Rain/flash in proleague, much better in the GSL; beating the guy who beat flash) I mean, what is going to happen if they deliver some real results? If flash makes it to the Ro8 in the OSL? Youd' have to rank him above the OSL winner then, as you already ranked him 3rd without having a good finish...
The biggest difference between Rain/Flash and everyone else below them is not their Proleague record, but that everyone else had quite a few fuck up games, most of which are mentioned in their write-ups. Meanwhile, Flash/Rain almost always showed immaculate play, which is also reflected in their write-ups.
On June 05 2013 21:44 Big J wrote: So, based upon which evidence do we have that powerrank? Some guys drinking a beer and making a list?
It looks pretty arbitrary at this point apart from #1 and #2.
When will people understand this IS arbitrary ?
You completely have the right to disagree ! But better bring solid arguments then.
Well, the only arguments for number 3 and number 4 on this list are: "they do amazingly in proleague". And then you go to the arguments for number 1 and then add "unless they have to face someone that is actually a highcaliber player himself".
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL as well and has been in the last Code S and will be in the next one as well. That doesn't mean I think Keen should be on the list and number 3 and 4 not, but at this point, putting them over players who have achieved much more in Starcraft 2 and the last GSL but don't participate in proleague because they are on eSF like Symbol or Life (and do well in their respective teamleague - GSTL) and have been toplevel players for much, much longer is just blind fanboyism. And disregards anybody who doesn't play proleague.
And doing amazingly well in Proleague is meaningless ? I doubt many people would agree...
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL, or sort of : I mean, all killing NSH isn't quite the same feat as all-killing CJ Entus or even EG-TL (imo) in Proleague, but it gives a nice boost to wincount. Otherwise, he went out of GSL 2012 Season 5 in the Ro32, same for this season... while Soulkey and Inno are already ahead (Soulkey already made 2 Ro8 and a title, INnoVatioN a finals, a Ro8 and a Ro4...), with strong runs, sOs already made a Ro4, RorO won the last GSL and got another Ro8 appearance, Symbol another Ro4 which adds up to a long list of strong results recently, PartinG a few Ro8, etc. Only HerO imo is debatable...
Power rank isn't about a whole career achievement (even on that, KeeN hasn't achieved as much..., only a Ro8, though he's been there consistently and for a long time), but recent results/showing (what was won, and how).
As an example, Life is a very high caliber player, but can you show what did he accomplished over the last month - 2 months period ?
I do agree that some players don't get the same exposure because they do not compete in Proleague, but Proleague has far more matches between teams of players that prepare quite exclusively for it, and you can't deny that it brings a lot to the table when comparing players (while GSTL for example has much less matches, and a team like NSH kind of drags down the level, although, do not misinterpret, there are excellent teams in the GSTL, but less focused on the team league format than proleague teams...).
So no, it's not fanboyism. You must remember what the PR is based on (hint : it doesn't really care about GSL Open Seasons, but rather about really recent events) and not overrate unecessarily GSTL over proleague, that's ridiculous.
You don't consider Brazil a top4 national team, when they go out in the Ro32 or Ro16 in a football world championsship, no matter how many Copa America and Friendlies and Confederations Cups they won recently. And same goes for Flash and Rain. They are not top4 recently, if they get stomped in the Ro32 (where we are back to the Keen comparison) and Ro16. Not even if you are in a group of death, because top4 means that you are expected to make it out of such a group, if only one guy is ranked higher in same group.
Proleague is a nice measure for consistency. But winning a Ro8 match in the GSL is surely a harder thing to do than collecting wins against a bunch of Code A wannabes with the occasional Code S player mixed in.
What has Life done in the last two months? Well, does powerrank focus on the last two months? Because then there is no reason whatsoever why the top5 of the powerrank should contain a single player who wasn't good enough for the Ro8 in the number one tournament by far in the last months and the top4 should probably be Innovation, Soulkey, Symbol and sOs before even considering anyone else to make it in the top10. If however the powerrank does not focus on just the most recent toplevel (as in, there is nothing above this league) accomplishments, then I don't see why flash and rain should be top4, seeing how they are lacking good finishes, compared to many other players.
That's why I say it's fanboyism. The only argument for flash and rain are proleague results. I believe that they should be on the list, due to how good they obviously are. But there are just players who deliver more at this point and should be above them. In some cases really obvious choices (e.g.: sOs. Same stats as Rain/flash in proleague, much better in the GSL; beating the guy who beat flash) I mean, what is going to happen if they deliver some real results? If flash makes it to the Ro8 in the OSL? Youd' have to rank him above the OSL winner then, as you already ranked him 3rd without having a good finish...
Very well said. Flash top 3 and Rain ahead of Life is downright disgusting.
On June 05 2013 09:16 Arisen wrote: i disagree with soulkey vs innovation. People dick ride innovation way to hard. I think soulkey justified himself as a really great player under pressure and innovation proved that he needs to work on that part of his game. Innovation might have looked more dominant in the games he won, but I think soulkey proved to be the better all around player
This guy knows what's up, I dislike the whole discrediting Soulkey solely because he came through on close matches. It really seems this Innovation thing is like Stephano fanboys prior to him actually doing anything. Maybe he will be great one day, but to be on him this early is quite silly.
I remember when MVP won his title while being absolute shit, cheesed his way to the final and took the final game with some top class cheese, it wasn't pretty to watch, it wasn't top quality starcraft, but it sure was entertaining to watch. He was second best to everyone he faced from the Ro16 onwards, but he won, and most of the forum was "He would be a god if he had his wrists" Soulkey is much the same, he didn't steamroll his way to the final, he didn't do it classily but to be able to win the title when looking so bad says quite a bit about when he actually steps up his game.
On June 05 2013 20:31 Noobity wrote: I don't understand this list. How is 15-2 in best of one games more important than a 5th place finish or WCS EU championship regardless of opponents considering they're all pretty difficult?
The Flash bias is so old.
Stephano got his ass kicked in Proleague. He started slumping after that beating he took. Also WCS America was dominated by EG-TL which is the last team in Proleague. And last but not least 3 out of 4 GSL semifinalists were Kespa players..So yeah, you see Proleague is a very important league. In this league the player with the most wins by far is...Flash. WCS EU is not that important. You got a Code B GSL player vs a player who got only 2 wins in Proleague and then left with his tail between his legs from Korea...
Well mvp = code B is bs and you know it. Stephano qualified for code S the same season so we know a mvp is at least code S. Also Stephano did not do that bad in pl.
You can tell when someone is trolling when they call MVP, the most decorated Starcraft 2 player, "Code B".
Mvp at his best makes Innovation look like a scrub. No one ever wants to play Mvp. Not even Flash. On his best day he is completely unbeatable.
The PR and its rankings have allways been debated over endlessly
You can argue all you want over x result doesn't warrant y placement, but in the end it's the amount of "power" (read: abstract term in terms of power, which is based upon reputation, recent results, consistency and the writers impression).
That's how it was valued, I could make a claim that Flash would've won the GSL had he made it to the finals vs Soulkey instead of Innovation given how strong Flash tradtionally has been on the mainstage in the finals, but you could rightfully call bullshit on that, given we don't know how it would've turned out (You can also bet your damn ass the GSL finalists played better in practice than on stage, I refuse to believe otherwise).
I still think Soulkey should be #1. The only thing more important than a GSL final should be a Proleague playoff match or finals, unless you're an absolute tear.
On June 05 2013 18:35 Otolia wrote: Bringing this feature back is a terrible terrible mistake. It's the equivalent of "Best Games of 2013" for video games reviewers. Pointless rankings only written to make people take about it and gain viewers. I expected more out of the writing team.
Based on this feedback, we have decided to discontinue power ranks in future months.
On June 05 2013 21:44 Big J wrote: So, based upon which evidence do we have that powerrank? Some guys drinking a beer and making a list?
It looks pretty arbitrary at this point apart from #1 and #2.
When will people understand this IS arbitrary ?
You completely have the right to disagree ! But better bring solid arguments then.
Well, the only arguments for number 3 and number 4 on this list are: "they do amazingly in proleague". And then you go to the arguments for number 1 and then add "unless they have to face someone that is actually a highcaliber player himself".
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL as well and has been in the last Code S and will be in the next one as well. That doesn't mean I think Keen should be on the list and number 3 and 4 not, but at this point, putting them over players who have achieved much more in Starcraft 2 and the last GSL but don't participate in proleague because they are on eSF like Symbol or Life (and do well in their respective teamleague - GSTL) and have been toplevel players for much, much longer is just blind fanboyism. And disregards anybody who doesn't play proleague.
And doing amazingly well in Proleague is meaningless ? I doubt many people would agree...
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL, or sort of : I mean, all killing NSH isn't quite the same feat as all-killing CJ Entus or even EG-TL (imo) in Proleague, but it gives a nice boost to wincount. Otherwise, he went out of GSL 2012 Season 5 in the Ro32, same for this season... while Soulkey and Inno are already ahead (Soulkey already made 2 Ro8 and a title, INnoVatioN a finals, a Ro8 and a Ro4...), with strong runs, sOs already made a Ro4, RorO won the last GSL and got another Ro8 appearance, Symbol another Ro4 which adds up to a long list of strong results recently, PartinG a few Ro8, etc. Only HerO imo is debatable...
Power rank isn't about a whole career achievement (even on that, KeeN hasn't achieved as much..., only a Ro8, though he's been there consistently and for a long time), but recent results/showing (what was won, and how).
As an example, Life is a very high caliber player, but can you show what did he accomplished over the last month - 2 months period ?
I do agree that some players don't get the same exposure because they do not compete in Proleague, but Proleague has far more matches between teams of players that prepare quite exclusively for it, and you can't deny that it brings a lot to the table when comparing players (while GSTL for example has much less matches, and a team like NSH kind of drags down the level, although, do not misinterpret, there are excellent teams in the GSTL, but less focused on the team league format than proleague teams...).
So no, it's not fanboyism. You must remember what the PR is based on (hint : it doesn't really care about GSL Open Seasons, but rather about really recent events) and not overrate unecessarily GSTL over proleague, that's ridiculous.
You don't consider Brazil a top4 national team, when they go out in the Ro32 or Ro16 in a football world championsship, no matter how many Copa America and Friendlies and Confederations Cups they won recently. And same goes for Flash and Rain. They are not top4 recently, if they get stomped in the Ro32 (where we are back to the Keen comparison) and Ro16. Not even if you are in a group of death, because top4 means that you are expected to make it out of such a group, if only one guy is ranked higher in same group.
Proleague is a nice measure for consistency. But winning a Ro8 match in the GSL is surely a harder thing to do than collecting wins against a bunch of Code A wannabes with the occasional Code S player mixed in.
What has Life done in the last two months? Well, does powerrank focus on the last two months? Because then there is no reason whatsoever why the top5 of the powerrank should contain a single player who wasn't good enough for the Ro8 in the number one tournament by far in the last months and the top4 should probably be Innovation, Soulkey, Symbol and sOs before even considering anyone else to make it in the top10. If however the powerrank does not focus on just the most recent toplevel (as in, there is nothing above this league) accomplishments, then I don't see why flash and rain should be top4, seeing how they are lacking good finishes, compared to many other players.
That's why I say it's fanboyism. The only argument for flash and rain are proleague results. I believe that they should be on the list, due to how good they obviously are. But there are just players who deliver more at this point and should be above them. In some cases really obvious choices (e.g.: sOs. Same stats as Rain/flash in proleague, much better in the GSL; beating the guy who beat flash) I mean, what is going to happen if they deliver some real results? If flash makes it to the Ro8 in the OSL? Youd' have to rank him above the OSL winner then, as you already ranked him 3rd without having a good finish...
Very well said. Flash top 3 and Rain ahead of Life is downright disgusting.
or you know, the power rank is based off recent results and Life hasn't achieved any noteworthy recent results.
Fact of the matter is, Proleague matters and is a more accurate measure because it has a higher sample of number of games played than other tournaments and leagues. Some would even argue that the calibre of players there are better with the likes of Innovation et al competing there too.
Those Proleague results are indeed the difference between Flash and Life. That isn't fanboyism, it's called 'having results to show.' If Life played more games in the GSTL that may have been reflected in, but the fact of the matter is, other than getting kicked out of the group of death and 2-0ing MKP in Code A, nothing warrants Life being placed anywhere near the top 5 in this month's power-rank.
That's not to say Life isn't a top 5 player - it's likely Life will go on to win more championships and he, along with Soulkey, are the best the zerg race have to offer at the moment. But Power Rank is mostly about a particular month/recent results, and on that basis, Rain and Flash have the results to show for their positions.
I like the idea of a power rank but as time passes, this list is basically going to be a proleague rank, simply because of the sheer number of games proleague players have to play.
Just look at Rain, if you take away all his proleague games, there's just too little to go on to determine if he deserves a spot on the list. I'm not saying Rain doesn't deserve to be on the list, he obviously does, but this ranking system will favor proleague players over everyone else.
On June 06 2013 04:47 gozima wrote: I like the idea of a power rank but as time passes, this list is basically going to be a proleague rank, simply because of the sheer number of games proleague players have to play.
Just look at Rain, if you take away all his proleague games, there's just too little to go on to determine if he deserves a spot on the list. I'm not saying Rain doesn't deserve to be on the list, he obviously does, but this ranking system will favor proleague players over everyone else.
People don't seem to understand that ProLeague has been the flagship tournament of Korean progaming for a decade. It is the tournament the Koreans care about the most, over MSL and OSL in the past, and I'm guessing that is still the case now.
On June 06 2013 03:57 Evangelist wrote: You can tell when someone is trolling when they call MVP, the most decorated Starcraft 2 player, "Code B".
Mvp at his best makes Innovation look like a scrub. No one ever wants to play Mvp. Not even Flash. On his best day he is completely unbeatable.
MVP at his best was able to play 11 GSL's in one year against former Kespa B-teamers. Innovation gets to play at most 4 WCS's per year against Kespa A-teamers.
Of course MVP is going to be the most decorated. He had more chances to win against far inferior opponents. Totally different eras.
On June 06 2013 03:57 Evangelist wrote: You can tell when someone is trolling when they call MVP, the most decorated Starcraft 2 player, "Code B".
Mvp at his best makes Innovation look like a scrub. No one ever wants to play Mvp. Not even Flash. On his best day he is completely unbeatable.
MVP at his best was able to play 11 GSL's in one year against former Kespa B-teamers. Innovation gets to play at most 4 WCS's per year against Kespa A-teamers.
Of course MVP is going to be the most decorated. He had more chances to win against far inferior opponents. Totally different eras.
i'm not even an mvp fan but comments like these are hard to take serious for me.
and now something the author of the PR might find shocking: I agree with your list ;-)
On June 06 2013 04:47 gozima wrote: I like the idea of a power rank but as time passes, this list is basically going to be a proleague rank, simply because of the sheer number of games proleague players have to play.
Just look at Rain, if you take away all his proleague games, there's just too little to go on to determine if he deserves a spot on the list. I'm not saying Rain doesn't deserve to be on the list, he obviously does, but this ranking system will favor proleague players over everyone else.
People don't seem to understand that ProLeague has been the flagship tournament of Korean progaming for a decade. It is the tournament the Koreans care about the most, over MSL and OSL in the past, and I'm guessing that is still the case now.
And yet it misses half of the Korean gamers making it count for so much quite unfair.
How many times does it take for Soulkey to beat Innovation so that people see that he is just better? Power ranks are nothing but subjective. If beating someone in a best of 7 matchup is not enough to prove that that player is better, I am not sure what is to be honest...
On June 06 2013 05:18 Emzeeshady wrote: Proleague is a poor measurement of anything really except how well that team prepared for a match. Bo1s prove very little imo. I have beaten 6 or 7 GMs in BO1s but I am no where fucking close to GM level and my winrate vs them in BO3s and above proves this.
On June 06 2013 05:23 Petrina wrote: How many times does it take for Soulkey to beat Innovation so that people see that he is just better? Power ranks are nothing but subjective. If beating someone in a best of 7 matchup is not enough to prove that that player is better, I am not sure what is to be honest...
When you win a BO7 4-3 you basically just beat them in a best of 1. How can people put so much stock into one incredibly close result? Tails will beat heads in a coinflip BO7 half the time, so if it happened tails is better at coinflipping right?
How many times does it take for Soulkey to beat Innovation to prove he is better in a direct match up? A lot more than he has is the answer and given how close it is between them overall recently in maps Innovations other results, which are clearly superior, give him the nod as the better player.
A 4-3 result in a BO7 tells us almost nothing about the players abilities relative to each other, it is not difficult to understand why, I wonder why so many struggle with this? If it was a BO5 Innovation just destroyed him 3-0. If it was a BO9 Innovation may have won 5-4, is he then clearly superior?
By your logic two players could play a BO101 in a day and the title of best player between them would flip flop every 15 minutes or so. That is not a sensible way to think about "best". A more sensible way is who is a favourite NEXT TIME, given what we know now? Not who won an incredibly close, variance filled, BO7.
On June 06 2013 05:23 Petrina wrote: How many times does it take for Soulkey to beat Innovation so that people see that he is just better? Power ranks are nothing but subjective. If beating someone in a best of 7 matchup is not enough to prove that that player is better, I am not sure what is to be honest...
When you win a BO7 4-3 you basically just beat them in a best of 1. How can people put so much stock into one incredibly close result? Tails will beat heads in a coinflip BO7 half the time, so if it happened tails is better at coinflipping right?
How many times does it take for Soulkey to beat Innovation to prove he is better in a direct match up? A lot more than he has is the answer and given how close it is between them overall recently in maps Innovations other results, which are clearly superior, give him the nod as the better player.
A 4-3 result in a BO7 tells us almost nothing about the players abilities relative to each other, it is not difficult to understand why, I wonder why so many struggle with this? If it was a BO5 Innovation just destroyed him 3-0. If it was a BO9 Innovation may have won 5-4, is he then clearly superior?
By your logic two players could play a BO101 in a day and the title of best player between them would flip flop every 15 minutes or so. That is not a sensible way to think about "best". A more sensible way is who is a favourite NEXT TIME, given what we know now? Not who won an incredibly close, variance filled, BO7.
What ?! Bo7 is NOT Bo1 when the result is 4-3. Have you heard of probability and statistics? The margin of error from 1-0 and 4-3 is significantly different such that the error for trusting if a player A is better than B is way smaller for 7 games instead of 1. And I do not know what would have happened in Bo9 or Bo5 but we had a match with enough games to say that Soulkey is/was better by measurable standards than Innovation. Everything else is just speculation.
I think what could be added to clarify is what power rank means.
Say a player is super dominant in May and April, but then hardly goes to any tournaments and only has a couple results in June and July. During the July Power Rank, they would not be ranked very highly due to the low number of games they have had in the last two months (or whatever the arbitrary time cutoff is). They might be as good as they were before, they might even be better, but power rank is based off of the results, and as they have not had recent results, they cannot pass a certain rank.
On June 06 2013 04:47 gozima wrote: I like the idea of a power rank but as time passes, this list is basically going to be a proleague rank, simply because of the sheer number of games proleague players have to play.
Just look at Rain, if you take away all his proleague games, there's just too little to go on to determine if he deserves a spot on the list. I'm not saying Rain doesn't deserve to be on the list, he obviously does, but this ranking system will favor proleague players over everyone else.
People don't seem to understand that ProLeague has been the flagship tournament of Korean progaming for a decade. It is the tournament the Koreans care about the most, over MSL and OSL in the past, and I'm guessing that is still the case now.
I'm not trying to take anything away from proleague, it's arguably the most skilled league. I'm just stating that this type of "what have you done for my lately" ranking system is going to favor proleague players above everyone else.
On June 06 2013 05:23 Petrina wrote: How many times does it take for Soulkey to beat Innovation so that people see that he is just better? Power ranks are nothing but subjective. If beating someone in a best of 7 matchup is not enough to prove that that player is better, I am not sure what is to be honest...
When you win a BO7 4-3 you basically just beat them in a best of 1. How can people put so much stock into one incredibly close result? Tails will beat heads in a coinflip BO7 half the time, so if it happened tails is better at coinflipping right?
How many times does it take for Soulkey to beat Innovation to prove he is better in a direct match up? A lot more than he has is the answer and given how close it is between them overall recently in maps Innovations other results, which are clearly superior, give him the nod as the better player.
A 4-3 result in a BO7 tells us almost nothing about the players abilities relative to each other, it is not difficult to understand why, I wonder why so many struggle with this? If it was a BO5 Innovation just destroyed him 3-0. If it was a BO9 Innovation may have won 5-4, is he then clearly superior?
By your logic two players could play a BO101 in a day and the title of best player between them would flip flop every 15 minutes or so. That is not a sensible way to think about "best". A more sensible way is who is a favourite NEXT TIME, given what we know now? Not who won an incredibly close, variance filled, BO7.
What ?! Bo7 is NOT Bo1 when the result is 4-3. Have you heard of probability and statistics? The margin of error from 1-0 and 4-3 is significantly different such that the error for trusting if a player A is better than B is way smaller for 7 games instead of 1. And I do not know what would have happened in Bo9 or Bo5 but we had a match with enough games to say that Soulkey is/was better by measurable standards than Innovation. Everything else is just speculation.
You are incorrect here, when you play 7 games instead of 1 the uncertainty goes down. As it does always when you increase sample size. However when the difference is 1 game, as in a 4-3 result for either player, the uncertainty is still so high as to who is better, it IS basically a BO1. We didn't come CLOSE to a series with enough games and enough of a difference (you forget this part, it is kinda important, ever hear of probability and statistics?) to say Soulkey was better by measurable standards. Like not even vaguely fucking close.
Put it this way, if they played a best of 1 000 001 and Soulkey wins 500 001 - 500 000, he's clearly better now since the "margin of error" is smaller?
On June 06 2013 05:18 Emzeeshady wrote: Proleague is a poor measurement of anything really except how well that team prepared for a match. Bo1s prove very little imo. I have beaten 6 or 7 GMs in BO1s but I am no where fucking close to GM level and my winrate vs them in BO3s and above proves this.
This is faulty logic.
The argument or the analogy?
BO1s are not meaningless just because there is a lot of variance in the result of an individual one of them. When you play a lot of BO1s they are reliable, its all to do with sample size vs variance. So if people play a thousand BO1s and we compare records, they are very meaningful. Proleague has a decent number of games by now, certainly enough for the results to be meaningful.
On June 06 2013 05:23 Petrina wrote: How many times does it take for Soulkey to beat Innovation so that people see that he is just better? Power ranks are nothing but subjective. If beating someone in a best of 7 matchup is not enough to prove that that player is better, I am not sure what is to be honest...
A 4-3 result in a BO7 tells us almost nothing about the players abilities relative to each other.
No, it tells us that the players are very close to each other in skill.
And in my opinion if two players are considered for the top spot then you give the title to the person that is the ace of the best proleague team and that has the positive head to head and that won the finals. If only out of tradition.
top 4 spots are a no brainer, 5 to 10 is debatable. if the power rank was more skillbased as opposed to result-oriented i wouldnt have hero or symbol in the top 10. fantasy should have gotten a consideration and jangbi should have been no10 instead of hero, that being said heros been putting up some solid results lately. all in all its a pretty solid list
On June 06 2013 04:47 gozima wrote: I like the idea of a power rank but as time passes, this list is basically going to be a proleague rank, simply because of the sheer number of games proleague players have to play.
Just look at Rain, if you take away all his proleague games, there's just too little to go on to determine if he deserves a spot on the list. I'm not saying Rain doesn't deserve to be on the list, he obviously does, but this ranking system will favor proleague players over everyone else.
People don't seem to understand that ProLeague has been the flagship tournament of Korean progaming for a decade. It is the tournament the Koreans care about the most, over MSL and OSL in the past, and I'm guessing that is still the case now.
And yet it misses half of the Korean gamers making it count for so much quite unfair.
It's not exactly proleagues fault though. They can't help being the premier league in korea.
On June 06 2013 05:23 Petrina wrote: How many times does it take for Soulkey to beat Innovation so that people see that he is just better? Power ranks are nothing but subjective. If beating someone in a best of 7 matchup is not enough to prove that that player is better, I am not sure what is to be honest...
When you win a BO7 4-3 you basically just beat them in a best of 1. How can people put so much stock into one incredibly close result? Tails will beat heads in a coinflip BO7 half the time, so if it happened tails is better at coinflipping right?
How many times does it take for Soulkey to beat Innovation to prove he is better in a direct match up? A lot more than he has is the answer and given how close it is between them overall recently in maps Innovations other results, which are clearly superior, give him the nod as the better player.
A 4-3 result in a BO7 tells us almost nothing about the players abilities relative to each other, it is not difficult to understand why, I wonder why so many struggle with this? If it was a BO5 Innovation just destroyed him 3-0. If it was a BO9 Innovation may have won 5-4, is he then clearly superior?
By your logic two players could play a BO101 in a day and the title of best player between them would flip flop every 15 minutes or so. That is not a sensible way to think about "best". A more sensible way is who is a favourite NEXT TIME, given what we know now? Not who won an incredibly close, variance filled, BO7.
What ?! Bo7 is NOT Bo1 when the result is 4-3. Have you heard of probability and statistics? The margin of error from 1-0 and 4-3 is significantly different such that the error for trusting if a player A is better than B is way smaller for 7 games instead of 1. And I do not know what would have happened in Bo9 or Bo5 but we had a match with enough games to say that Soulkey is/was better by measurable standards than Innovation. Everything else is just speculation.
You are incorrect here, when you play 7 games instead of 1 the uncertainty goes down. As it does always when you increase sample size. However when the difference is 1 game, as in a 4-3 result for either player, the uncertainty is still so high as to who is better, it IS basically a BO1. We didn't come CLOSE to a series with enough games and enough of a difference (you forget this part, it is kinda important, ever hear of probability and statistics?) to say Soulkey was better by measurable standards. Like not even vaguely fucking close.
Put it this way, if they played a best of 1 000 001 and Soulkey wins 500 001 - 500 000, he's clearly better now since the "margin of error" is smaller?
Sounds to me like you are grasping the concept of a series. A bo1 allows you to pretty much snipe a player with an unexpected strategy or surprise. This will not work two games in a row therefore there is a better chance the better player will win in a BO5 for instance.
Yes obviously, this is not addressing my argument though? I agree with this its not relevant though.
On June 06 2013 05:23 Petrina wrote: How many times does it take for Soulkey to beat Innovation so that people see that he is just better? Power ranks are nothing but subjective. If beating someone in a best of 7 matchup is not enough to prove that that player is better, I am not sure what is to be honest...
A 4-3 result in a BO7 tells us almost nothing about the players abilities relative to each other.
No, it tells us that the players are very close to each other in skill.
And in my opinion if two players are considered for the top spot then you give the title to the person that is the ace of the best proleague team and that has the positive head to head and that won the finals. If only out of tradition.
I re read my post and you are correct I worded that badly which may cause confusion, it should have read "a 4-3 result in BO7 tells us almost nothing about who is the better player, other than that it might be close".
Ace of the best proleague team does not seem relevant, the best player on the worst team could be the best player in the world.
On June 06 2013 04:47 gozima wrote: I like the idea of a power rank but as time passes, this list is basically going to be a proleague rank, simply because of the sheer number of games proleague players have to play.
Just look at Rain, if you take away all his proleague games, there's just too little to go on to determine if he deserves a spot on the list. I'm not saying Rain doesn't deserve to be on the list, he obviously does, but this ranking system will favor proleague players over everyone else.
People don't seem to understand that ProLeague has been the flagship tournament of Korean progaming for a decade. It is the tournament the Koreans care about the most, over MSL and OSL in the past, and I'm guessing that is still the case now.
And yet it misses half of the Korean gamers making it count for so much quite unfair.
It's not exactly proleagues fault though. They can't help being the premier league in korea.
Judge by the audience, i really wouldn't say that. also, If you can't deliver in BO series, then you are obviously not one of the best players. Rain at least accomplish an OSL, even long ago. Flash has accomplished nth in both WOL and HOTS. And i see it continue for a while. And yet, he ranked 3 in the power rank. So lets say flash was in semifinal in OSL would make him obviously the No.1.
On June 06 2013 04:47 gozima wrote: I like the idea of a power rank but as time passes, this list is basically going to be a proleague rank, simply because of the sheer number of games proleague players have to play.
Just look at Rain, if you take away all his proleague games, there's just too little to go on to determine if he deserves a spot on the list. I'm not saying Rain doesn't deserve to be on the list, he obviously does, but this ranking system will favor proleague players over everyone else.
People don't seem to understand that ProLeague has been the flagship tournament of Korean progaming for a decade. It is the tournament the Koreans care about the most, over MSL and OSL in the past, and I'm guessing that is still the case now.
And yet it misses half of the Korean gamers making it count for so much quite unfair.
It's not exactly proleagues fault though. They can't help being the premier league in korea.
That is a big claim but who suddenly decided that? No doubt this was true in BW but how did it suddenly raise so big in sc2?
On June 06 2013 05:53 ROOTT1 wrote: top 4 spots are a no brainer, 5 to 10 is debatable. if the power rank was more skillbased as opposed to result-oriented i wouldnt have hero or symbol in the top 10. fantasy should have gotten a consideration and jangbi should have been no10 instead of hero, that being said heros been putting up some solid results lately. all in all its a pretty solid list
Fantasy, seriously? LOL you are insane dude and I'm a SKT fan
??? lol fantasy and ty are the 3rd/4th best t's atm edit: and by should have gotten a consideration i mean he should have been in the "Close But No Cigar" category
have you seen fantasy's games? If that's top 10 in the world material I don't even know what to say. 4th best T in PL doesn't even make you a top 10 player in PL with all the Z/P around, never mind top 10 in the world including WCS.
On June 06 2013 06:30 ROOTT1 wrote: ??? lol fantasy and ty are the 3rd/4th best t's atm edit: and by should have gotten a consideration i mean he should have been in the "Close But No Cigar" category
17-15 (53.13%) that is his win rate in HOTS, 9 wins - 8 losses (52.94%) in PL specifically. It says more about how there are barely any good T's in PL than Fantasy being good.
On June 06 2013 06:30 ROOTT1 wrote: ??? lol fantasy and ty are the 3rd/4th best t's atm
Fantasy looked terrible vs JYP.
ok and flash had 2 terrible pl rounds in a row(he had close to a 20-30% winrate), your point being? before ty had his breakout round i had to convince newbs like this guy about how good he is. ull understand in time
On May 03 2013 12:00 ROOTT1 wrote: i need some help picking my last 2 players, should i go w/ effort+4pter(most likely hyvaa) or herojoin + 3pter(most likely ty)?
I think you should take herO, but for 3 pts, you can have some other players that are better or as good as TY. Cure / Brown for example
brown is gonna lose vs hyvaa and skt is stacked so he wont get alot of playtime, and imo ty is better than cure
you should listen to ppl who placed higher than you every round so far. Hyvaa isnt so good, the only reason he gets points is because hes stx's main zerg so of course he gets playtime. while cure vs ty, if we just look at WoL + hots stats cure has been more solid and he has way better chances to get a multi kill (1-2-3) since hes a starter for t8 + the facts thats hes best terran on t8. while effort vs hero you know hero is more consistant.
TY at 3 pts is only worth on proleague format when he can both play and ACE.
On June 06 2013 06:32 Dodgin wrote: have you seen fantasy's games? If that's top 10 in the world material I don't even know what to say. 4th best T in PL doesn't even make you a top 10 player in PL with all the Z/P around, never mind top 10 in the world including WCS.
On June 06 2013 06:30 ROOTT1 wrote: ??? lol fantasy and ty are the 3rd/4th best t's atm edit: and by should have gotten a consideration i mean he should have been in the "Close But No Cigar" category
17-15 (53.13%) that is his win rate in HOTS, 9 wins - 8 losses (52.94%) in PL specifically. It says more about how there are barely any good T's in PL than Fantasy being good.
seems like your having trouble reading my post, i never said he should be in the top 10. not at the moment at least
I read your post, he shouldn't be in the " close but no cigar " category because he's not close. his record is bad, his games look bad. I'd love to see him look good but he doesn't look good.
On June 06 2013 04:47 gozima wrote: I like the idea of a power rank but as time passes, this list is basically going to be a proleague rank, simply because of the sheer number of games proleague players have to play.
Just look at Rain, if you take away all his proleague games, there's just too little to go on to determine if he deserves a spot on the list. I'm not saying Rain doesn't deserve to be on the list, he obviously does, but this ranking system will favor proleague players over everyone else.
People don't seem to understand that ProLeague has been the flagship tournament of Korean progaming for a decade. It is the tournament the Koreans care about the most, over MSL and OSL in the past, and I'm guessing that is still the case now.
And yet it misses half of the Korean gamers making it count for so much quite unfair.
It's not exactly proleagues fault though. They can't help being the premier league in korea.
That is a big claim but who suddenly decided that? No doubt this was true in BW but how did it suddenly raise so big in sc2?
Kespa fanbois decided that it is a premier league obviously
On June 06 2013 06:45 Dodgin wrote: I read your post, he shouldn't be in the " close but no cigar " category because he's not close. his record is bad, his games look bad. I'd love to see him look good but he doesn't look good.
ah ok, so your one of those dudes(95% of tlers) who just waits for someone to win a gsl or go on a huge winstreak before calling them good. takes alot of knowledge to do that
On June 06 2013 06:45 Dodgin wrote: I read your post, he shouldn't be in the " close but no cigar " category because he's not close. his record is bad, his games look bad. I'd love to see him look good but he doesn't look good.
ah ok, so your one of those dudes(95% of tlers) who just waits for someone to win a gsl or go on a huge winstreak before calling them good. takes alot of knowledge to do that
no, I've watched all his games and I think he plays poorly. especially his macro, It's just awful.
there's a reason you're the only one in the entire thread lobbying for a spot for him on the list.
On June 06 2013 06:45 Dodgin wrote: I read your post, he shouldn't be in the " close but no cigar " category because he's not close. his record is bad, his games look bad. I'd love to see him look good but he doesn't look good.
ah ok, so your one of those dudes(95% of tlers) who just waits for someone to win a gsl or go on a huge winstreak before calling them good. takes alot of knowledge to do that
there's a reason you're the only one in the entire thread lobbying for a spot for him on the list.
On June 06 2013 04:47 gozima wrote: I like the idea of a power rank but as time passes, this list is basically going to be a proleague rank, simply because of the sheer number of games proleague players have to play.
Just look at Rain, if you take away all his proleague games, there's just too little to go on to determine if he deserves a spot on the list. I'm not saying Rain doesn't deserve to be on the list, he obviously does, but this ranking system will favor proleague players over everyone else.
People don't seem to understand that ProLeague has been the flagship tournament of Korean progaming for a decade. It is the tournament the Koreans care about the most, over MSL and OSL in the past, and I'm guessing that is still the case now.
And yet it misses half of the Korean gamers making it count for so much quite unfair.
It's not exactly proleagues fault though. They can't help being the premier league in korea.
That is a big claim but who suddenly decided that? No doubt this was true in BW but how did it suddenly raise so big in sc2?
Kespa fanbois decided that it is a premier league obviously
It's been the premier league forever, and nothing has changed. It's not just about KeSPA or ProLeague itself even. It's teamleagues. Team Leagues have always gotten more attention in Korea both from the players and the people. Why? Because it's about the collective success. Every player has the added pressure of not letting down his/her team. Some players have even mentioned that they had to sacrifice individual practice time for team leagues. I find it hard to believe that anything has changed just because the platform is different; the mentality is the same. Just as you derisively say "Kespa fanbois decided that it is," I can say that "ESF SC2 noobie fanbois decided that it isn't," but that's not an argument at all. I at least have history and facts to fall back upon. The skill level is certainly high calibre; just look at the GSL finalists, what league do the play in? Or is GSL a faulty measure of skill now too? Please.
I totally agree with Innovation at #1. Yes, he lost the GSL finals 3-4 to the second ranked player. But before that, he had perhaps the toughest path to the final in GSL history: Rain, Hyun, Flash, Life, Roro, Symbol. He played like a beast all tournament long and was rightfully regarded as the favorite to win it all. There can be no doubt as to who showed the best play over the course of the whole tournament.
On June 06 2013 07:22 vesicular wrote: Not saying TT1 is right, but people laughed at Major when he said Innovation was going to be a monster way back when...
On June 06 2013 07:22 vesicular wrote: Not saying TT1 is right, but people laughed at Major when he said Innovation was going to be a monster way back when...
Who did?
Innovation didn't make the best first impression actually.
- he didn't do well in the hybrid proleague, getting like a 3-9 score - he nearly eliminated fan favorite Flash from the last BW OSL - he didn't play in the MLG invitational - he doesn't really have an exciting personality - he qualified for the GSL on the basis of timing attacks, alongside now forgotten terran players like Bbyong - people that casually followed Brood War probably didn't know of him
At this point Major said that Bogus was actually really good, people started noticing he was first on the ladder and that his play was super clean and impressive, but I don't think that he was really on anyone's radar before this sudden reevaluation.
Hero> kango cuz kango play has been very all in-ish and was just got by with luck or build orders...his play hasnt been solid or strong so kango def cannot be place above hero or MVP. MVp showed amazingly strong play in EU WCS but i guess they might look on hero opponents as higher level than MVP opponents though Stephano is prob better than all of hero opponents but then its just one player. As they say MVP will prob go ahead and win WCS and show why he should be number one...he will move up soon enuff...Hero not a player i think that can stay above MVP in such rankings. Now this idiot @Airsen.... Innovation looked more dominant in his games cuz he was...he also faced much harder groups and players. U couldnt have handpicked a harder way to the finals even if you tried. He has torn down all champs and all known TOP OF THE TOP PLAYERS. Soulkey struggled his way thru though he is an amazinig player and cause he couldnt win any other way and started to all in which was a great choice as a player....those games cannot prove and grant him the title of best player. U need to stop riding Soulkeys dick who hasnt shown as much skills yet u think he is #1? U must be a zerg player or plain stupid. Innovation dropped the ball vs one opponent and u tink it makes him a worse player? lol..and beyond me why he didnt play safe and go tanks like he did vs symbol but whats done is done. I just think Life should be 4th.
On June 05 2013 20:31 Noobity wrote: I don't understand this list. How is 15-2 in best of one games more important than a 5th place finish or WCS EU championship regardless of opponents considering they're all pretty difficult?
The Flash bias is so old.
Stephano got his ass kicked in Proleague. He started slumping after that beating he took. Also WCS America was dominated by EG-TL which is the last team in Proleague. And last but not least 3 out of 4 GSL semifinalists were Kespa players..So yeah, you see Proleague is a very important league. In this league the player with the most wins by far is...Flash. WCS EU is not that important. You got a Code B GSL player vs a player who got only 2 wins in Proleague and then left with his tail between his legs from Korea...
Well mvp = code B is bs and you know it. Stephano qualified for code S the same season so we know a mvp is at least code S. Also Stephano did not do that bad in pl.
You can tell when someone is trolling when they call MVP, the most decorated Starcraft 2 player, "Code B".
Mvp at his best makes Innovation look like a scrub. No one ever wants to play Mvp. Not even Flash. On his best day he is completely unbeatable.
MVP hasn't shown success against Korean players for around 7 months now. Yes, he used to be the best, but unless he shows an incredible comeback tomorrow, talking about how he's the best on his best day is meaningless.
On June 06 2013 05:18 Emzeeshady wrote: Proleague is a poor measurement of anything really except how well that team prepared for a match. Bo1s prove very little imo. I have beaten 6 or 7 GMs in BO1s but I am no where fucking close to GM level and my winrate vs them in BO3s and above proves this.
Yes, it's all about how well the team prepared for the match. That's why Flash went 15-2 and other KT players didn't; they just decided to only help Flash prepare. As for you beating a GM on occasion... What percentage of the time did you beat them? Was it over 60%?
On June 05 2013 09:21 Master of DalK wrote: Did Artosis write this?
I do feel though, Soulkey should've been #1, he's proved it. Maybe we should see if its Soulkey v INnoVation in WCS S1 finals, and then if INnoVation wins, there. Give him first there.
well... Looking just at results, MVP must be nr1. Or Flash if we count in BW. INovation played an amazing season and showed how to play terran. He wasn't just better than others he was miles ahead. Soulkey also had an amazing season, but (to me... (personal opinion but trying to be as objective as I can)) his performance wasn't THAT outstanding as Innovations was. Looking at the scores they are close, looking at the games and rewatching the VODs lately INovations win looked far more impressive. BUT that could be, that to me terran controling a game and wearing down an opponent, always looks more impressive then when other races do it (besides when Life plays), cause of the enormous amount of multitasking and because the army is so fragile, a simple error while multitasking costs the game.
On June 06 2013 05:33 Pazuzu wrote: I think what could be added to clarify is what power rank means.
Say a player is super dominant in May and April, but then hardly goes to any tournaments and only has a couple results in June and July. During the July Power Rank, they would not be ranked very highly due to the low number of games they have had in the last two months (or whatever the arbitrary time cutoff is). They might be as good as they were before, they might even be better, but power rank is based off of the results, and as they have not had recent results, they cannot pass a certain rank.
It's based on a combination of things. If somebody is clearly the best player in the world but then doesn't get to play many games the next month, there's a good chance that they'll stay at the top of the list.
On June 06 2013 06:45 Dodgin wrote: I read your post, he shouldn't be in the " close but no cigar " category because he's not close. his record is bad, his games look bad. I'd love to see him look good but he doesn't look good.
ah ok, so your one of those dudes(95% of tlers) who just waits for someone to win a gsl or go on a huge winstreak before calling them good. takes alot of knowledge to do that
no, I've watched all his games and I think he plays poorly. especially his macro, It's just awful.
there's a reason you're the only one in the entire thread lobbying for a spot for him on the list.
True, but Fantasy's macro has always been awful even in BW era. There is an inside joke about him because of that too, saying Fantasy is the true heir to Boxer (because Boxer was known to float a lot of minerals in BW)
In Kespa there are Flash and Innovation, and then there is everyone else. The gap between these two and the rest is pretty big.
On June 06 2013 06:32 Dodgin wrote: have you seen fantasy's games? If that's top 10 in the world material I don't even know what to say. 4th best T in PL doesn't even make you a top 10 player in PL with all the Z/P around, never mind top 10 in the world including WCS.
On June 06 2013 06:30 ROOTT1 wrote: ??? lol fantasy and ty are the 3rd/4th best t's atm edit: and by should have gotten a consideration i mean he should have been in the "Close But No Cigar" category
17-15 (53.13%) that is his win rate in HOTS, 9 wins - 8 losses (52.94%) in PL specifically. It says more about how there are barely any good T's in PL than Fantasy being good.
seems like your having trouble reading my post, i never said he should be in the top 10. not at the moment at least
TaeJa was the best Terran in the world at one point, so there's hope yet for Fantasy and other Terrans who don't know how to build supply depots
Yeah I was playing devil advocated arguing that immvp should be on the list. Really I agree with this list for the most part and the guys at the top are the best SC 2 players right now. I just think immvp is a little under rated and forgotten at times considering he is the most accomplished SC 2 player of all time so far.
On June 05 2013 09:21 Master of DalK wrote: Did Artosis write this?
I do feel though, Soulkey should've been #1, he's proved it. Maybe we should see if its Soulkey v INnoVation in WCS S1 finals, and then if INnoVation wins, there. Give him first there.
well... Looking just at results, MVP must be nr1. Or Flash if we count in BW. INovation played an amazing season and showed how to play terran. He wasn't just better than others he was miles ahead. Soulkey also had an amazing season, but (to me... (personal opinion but trying to be as objective as I can)) his performance wasn't THAT outstanding as Innovations was. Looking at the scores they are close, looking at the games and rewatching the VODs lately INovations win looked far more impressive. BUT that could be, that to me terran controling a game and wearing down an opponent, always looks more impressive then when other races do it (besides when Life plays), cause of the enormous amount of multitasking and because the army is so fragile, a simple error while multitasking costs the game.
Explain to me why we should count past games towards a HoTs ranking? MVP was the best at WoL, and Flash was the best at BW, but that is not relevant in the slightest.
On June 06 2013 03:15 BronzeKnee wrote: I'm shocked at the top 2 rankings.
This is just ridiculous reasoning for the ranking: When it comes down to it, Soulkey may be the GSL champion, but Innovation was just the more impressive player in May. Think of it this way: you have to bet your life on either Soulkey or Innovation in a bo1 against an arbitrary player. Who would you choose?
You could make an argument for choosing Flash (or any number of players) over Soulkey with that reasoning (heck Flash beat Soulkey in the GSL this season). And it would be just as wrong.
But what happened here is that Soulkey got slapped in the face, after it was arbitrarily decided that his win wasn't good enough, that somehow he can be ranked #2 after becoming a GSL champion by defeating the man in the finals who you ranked #1 .
How is anyone supposed to achieve #1 if they can't do it by defeating the #1 player in a best of 7 series for the most prestigious title in E-Sports? And it isn't like this is one series, both players defeated high quality opponents round after round in order to reach the finals.
Simply put, the definition of the word better was ignored here when Innovation was picked over Soulkey (by definition of the word better, the better player always wins).
Outside of the GSL, Innovation gets used more in Proleague, but their win rates are similar, at 67% for Innovation and 66% for Soulkey.
Finally, this statement really irks me [i]"It seems quite harsh that all of this would be negated by the difference of just one game, Innovation was one game away from winning, but he was there three times! The bias is such a slap in the fact to Soulkey, who remained calm and tore apart Innovation.
The ability to finish is important. So is the ability to remain calm when behind. Soulkey showed it. It was absent in Innovation.
Until Innovation is as calm under pressure and can finish like Soulkey, Soulkey is the better player by definition, because he defeated Innovation in a competitive setting. That is how the English language works.
bet·ter 1 (btr) adj. Comparative of good. 1. Greater in excellence or higher in quality. 2. More useful, suitable, or desirable: found a better way to go; a suit with a better fit than that one. 3. More highly skilled or adept: I am better at math than English. 4. Greater or larger: argued for the better part of an hour. 5. More advantageous or favorable; improved: a better chance of success. 6. Healthier or more fit than before: The patient is better today.
v.intr. To become better. Idioms:
To outdo or outwit; defeat.
Word! Does nobody read the "long" posts?? This guy actually knows how to argue.
On June 06 2013 03:15 BronzeKnee wrote: I'm shocked at the top 2 rankings.
This is just ridiculous reasoning for the ranking: When it comes down to it, Soulkey may be the GSL champion, but Innovation was just the more impressive player in May. Think of it this way: you have to bet your life on either Soulkey or Innovation in a bo1 against an arbitrary player. Who would you choose?
You could make an argument for choosing Flash (or any number of players) over Soulkey with that reasoning (heck Flash beat Soulkey in the GSL this season). And it would be just as wrong.
But what happened here is that Soulkey got slapped in the face, after it was arbitrarily decided that his win wasn't good enough, that somehow he can be ranked #2 after becoming a GSL champion by defeating the man in the finals who you ranked #1 .
How is anyone supposed to achieve #1 if they can't do it by defeating the #1 player in a best of 7 series for the most prestigious title in E-Sports? And it isn't like this is one series, both players defeated high quality opponents round after round in order to reach the finals.
Simply put, the definition of the word better was ignored here when Innovation was picked over Soulkey (by definition of the word better, the better player always wins).
Outside of the GSL, Innovation gets used more in Proleague, but their win rates are similar, at 67% for Innovation and 66% for Soulkey.
Finally, this statement really irks me [i]"It seems quite harsh that all of this would be negated by the difference of just one game, Innovation was one game away from winning, but he was there three times! The bias is such a slap in the fact to Soulkey, who remained calm and tore apart Innovation.
The ability to finish is important. So is the ability to remain calm when behind. Soulkey showed it. It was absent in Innovation.
Until Innovation is as calm under pressure and can finish like Soulkey, Soulkey is the better player by definition, because he defeated Innovation in a competitive setting. That is how the English language works.
bet·ter 1 (btr) adj. Comparative of good. 1. Greater in excellence or higher in quality. 2. More useful, suitable, or desirable: found a better way to go; a suit with a better fit than that one. 3. More highly skilled or adept: I am better at math than English. 4. Greater or larger: argued for the better part of an hour. 5. More advantageous or favorable; improved: a better chance of success. 6. Healthier or more fit than before: The patient is better today.
v.intr. To become better. Idioms:
To outdo or outwit; defeat.
"(by definition of the word better, the better player always wins)."
This is just wrong in every way. By this logic, any time one player beats another player, they just become better than them. You can say that Soulkey played better in that series, but to say that he's just the better player because of one series is absurd. It fails to take into account so many different factors:
- The match up. What if one player's slightly better than the other player at that one match up, but significantly worse at the others? Are they the better player overall just because they beat them? - Luck. In a fast paced game of imperfect information, luck always plays a factor. Sometimes it's not major, sometimes it is; but it's always a consideration. - How you're feeling that day. Some days you just feel better and play better than other days. Maybe because of what you ate, how you slept, your interactions with other people, etc. - Your preparation. Who you were able to prepare with, what advice your teammates and coaches gave, how much time your team allowed you, etc. - Contrasting styles. Some player's styles are more favourable for you to play against than others. Just like with the match up, just because you perform well against one single player doesn't mean that you're just overall better at the game.
There are other factors to take into account as well, but the point is, winning one series against one player on one day does NOT mean that you are just automatically the better player. Looking solely at that one series and ignoring everything else is just ridiculous, and far too many people in this thread are saying "But he beat him, so he must be better." That's just not how things work.
On June 06 2013 03:15 BronzeKnee wrote: I'm shocked at the top 2 rankings.
This is just ridiculous reasoning for the ranking: When it comes down to it, Soulkey may be the GSL champion, but Innovation was just the more impressive player in May. Think of it this way: you have to bet your life on either Soulkey or Innovation in a bo1 against an arbitrary player. Who would you choose?
You could make an argument for choosing Flash (or any number of players) over Soulkey with that reasoning (heck Flash beat Soulkey in the GSL this season). And it would be just as wrong.
But what happened here is that Soulkey got slapped in the face, after it was arbitrarily decided that his win wasn't good enough, that somehow he can be ranked #2 after becoming a GSL champion by defeating the man in the finals who you ranked #1 .
How is anyone supposed to achieve #1 if they can't do it by defeating the #1 player in a best of 7 series for the most prestigious title in E-Sports? And it isn't like this is one series, both players defeated high quality opponents round after round in order to reach the finals.
Simply put, the definition of the word better was ignored here when Innovation was picked over Soulkey (by definition of the word better, the better player always wins).
Outside of the GSL, Innovation gets used more in Proleague, but their win rates are similar, at 67% for Innovation and 66% for Soulkey.
Finally, this statement really irks me [i]"It seems quite harsh that all of this would be negated by the difference of just one game, Innovation was one game away from winning, but he was there three times! The bias is such a slap in the fact to Soulkey, who remained calm and tore apart Innovation.
The ability to finish is important. So is the ability to remain calm when behind. Soulkey showed it. It was absent in Innovation.
Until Innovation is as calm under pressure and can finish like Soulkey, Soulkey is the better player by definition, because he defeated Innovation in a competitive setting. That is how the English language works.
bet·ter 1 (btr) adj. Comparative of good. 1. Greater in excellence or higher in quality. 2. More useful, suitable, or desirable: found a better way to go; a suit with a better fit than that one. 3. More highly skilled or adept: I am better at math than English. 4. Greater or larger: argued for the better part of an hour. 5. More advantageous or favorable; improved: a better chance of success. 6. Healthier or more fit than before: The patient is better today.
v.intr. To become better. Idioms:
To outdo or outwit; defeat.
Word! Does nobody read the "long" posts?? This guy actually knows how to argue.
He really doesn't, his arguments are a joke. He's trying to turn his opinion of what is considered "better" into a fact, but he failed hard at it.
On June 05 2013 17:43 sickless wrote: author is innovations fan, i don't see any reasons to not put soulkey on the 1st line. he outplayed him in macro/defending cheeses/executing all ins, and all four games in a row. innovation played bad, that's it.
Because Soulkey cheesed him 2 times, scouted a proxy 2 rax and then hugely benefitted from Bogus losing 3 medivacs for nothing.
Sounds like legitimate winnings to me.
it honestly gets to me when people try to take it away from people like saying innovation lost it, which is basically saying soulkey didn't earn it..
On June 05 2013 17:43 sickless wrote: author is innovations fan, i don't see any reasons to not put soulkey on the 1st line. he outplayed him in macro/defending cheeses/executing all ins, and all four games in a row. innovation played bad, that's it.
Because Soulkey cheesed him 2 times, scouted a proxy 2 rax and then hugely benefitted from Bogus losing 3 medivacs for nothing.
Sounds like legitimate winnings to me.
it honestly gets to me when people try to take it away from people like saying innovation lost it, which is basically saying soulkey didn't earn it..
Hm, I would say that Innovation "lost it" more than Soulkey "won it". Soulkey never blundered like Innovation did, multiple times. Soulkey played solidly, nothing truly amazing though like we saw from Innovation on their 2nd PL match. Innovation played solidly until game 4 and then he just sort of went limp partway through the pounding. (Take that any way you want ^_~). Like in Chess, when one player does a very early blunder, people don't really credit the winner of the match more than they do discredit the loser.
But, I would say that Soulkey outplayed Innovation in the series as a whole.
Taken in context of the whole month, Innovation looked far more dominant against the rest of this entire list, while Soulkey in context of the whole month barely could eek a win against sos which was a long awful series for both of them.
Losing the Group of Death was quite a motivator for Flash it seems, I'm cheering for him just because I can't get over the God meme
On June 06 2013 12:53 jalstar wrote: Any of the top 9 can take a BoX against anyone else in the top 9 at the moment, so any power rank is pretty arbitrary.
On June 06 2013 12:53 jalstar wrote: Any of the top 9 can take a BoX against anyone else in the top 9 at the moment, so any power rank is pretty arbitrary.
BO50's ? I don't think so :/
Correction: Innovation would beat anyone in a Bo50.
We really need a SoS for SC2 (Strength of Schedule, or in this case, Strength of Opponent). I'd actually put Innovation #1, Soulkey #3, and Flash #2 for power-rankings for this month, based on their SoS and performance. It should be interesting how this month turns out.
On June 06 2013 12:53 jalstar wrote: Any of the top 9 can take a BoX against anyone else in the top 9 at the moment, so any power rank is pretty arbitrary.
BO50's ? I don't think so :/
Correction: Innovation would beat anyone in a Bo50.
I think Flash would beat him pretty handily. Flash is all ready 5-3 against him, and TvT is Inno's worst MU, and I'd presume Flash has much more endurance due to the sheer amount he practices (more than everyone else).
I am shocked by how people nowaydays don't count StarLeague Title. It looks like some random guy came and took GSL. I remember from bw days that how many OSL/MSL you have was one of the most important factors. Because for taking Starleague title was the dream of any progamer. Flash took 6 times. Nada took 6 times. Jaedong got it 5 times. They are the best players. Their titles proved it. Everyone knows them because their outstanding performances. For the last month only one person increased number of his titles.
Also It wasn't just one game or series between Innovation and Soulkey. It was Finals!!! Maybe it was the most important games in their life so far.
On June 06 2013 03:15 BronzeKnee wrote: I'm shocked at the top 2 rankings.
This is just ridiculous reasoning for the ranking: When it comes down to it, Soulkey may be the GSL champion, but Innovation was just the more impressive player in May. Think of it this way: you have to bet your life on either Soulkey or Innovation in a bo1 against an arbitrary player. Who would you choose?
You could make an argument for choosing Flash (or any number of players) over Soulkey with that reasoning (heck Flash beat Soulkey in the GSL this season). And it would be just as wrong.
But what happened here is that Soulkey got slapped in the face, after it was arbitrarily decided that his win wasn't good enough, that somehow he can be ranked #2 after becoming a GSL champion by defeating the man in the finals who you ranked #1 .
How is anyone supposed to achieve #1 if they can't do it by defeating the #1 player in a best of 7 series for the most prestigious title in E-Sports? And it isn't like this is one series, both players defeated high quality opponents round after round in order to reach the finals.
Simply put, the definition of the word better was ignored here when Innovation was picked over Soulkey (by definition of the word better, the better player always wins).
Outside of the GSL, Innovation gets used more in Proleague, but their win rates are similar, at 67% for Innovation and 66% for Soulkey.
Finally, this statement really irks me [i]"It seems quite harsh that all of this would be negated by the difference of just one game, Innovation was one game away from winning, but he was there three times! The bias is such a slap in the fact to Soulkey, who remained calm and tore apart Innovation.
The ability to finish is important. So is the ability to remain calm when behind. Soulkey showed it. It was absent in Innovation.
Until Innovation is as calm under pressure and can finish like Soulkey, Soulkey is the better player by definition, because he defeated Innovation in a competitive setting. That is how the English language works.
bet·ter 1 (btr) adj. Comparative of good. 1. Greater in excellence or higher in quality. 2. More useful, suitable, or desirable: found a better way to go; a suit with a better fit than that one. 3. More highly skilled or adept: I am better at math than English. 4. Greater or larger: argued for the better part of an hour. 5. More advantageous or favorable; improved: a better chance of success. 6. Healthier or more fit than before: The patient is better today.
v.intr. To become better. Idioms:
To outdo or outwit; defeat.
Word! Does nobody read the "long" posts?? This guy actually knows how to argue.
He really doesn't, his arguments are a joke. He's trying to turn his opinion of what is considered "better" into a fact, but he failed hard at it.
I have to disagree. The fact that Soulkey defeated Innovation is the only factual evidence to who is better there is. Is it 100% full proof? No. But everything outside of the heads up match is opinion/speculation. I agree with him though. I weigh heads up and major tournament wins higher than anything else and Soulkey has Innovation on both fronts. We can sit here and play the should've would've could've game all day, but what happened was Soulkey beat Innovation in a best of 7, which is a format that is built to minimize luck and reward the more skilled player, then went on to win WCS KR. In my mind we can't ignore that.
I think some people are missing the true spirit of Power Ranks. Objectively speaking, yes, Soulkey won the most recent GSL against Innovation who is currently ranked 1. However, Power Ranks, in addition to the criteria mentioned in the first post, is also based the player's "aura", and this is defined however the author of the Power Ranks want. In that regard, I agree Innovation should be number 1 right now. No one who actually wants to win will choose to face him because at this present moment, he is the most feared player.
Simply put, if you "objectively" want the "best" player to be number 1 in Power Ranks, then just take a look at the ELO's. Even back in the BW days from which Power Ranks originated, the person with the highest ELO was not necessarily #1 in the Power Ranks.
On June 07 2013 03:47 mikumegurine wrote: its Flash's time next season....innovation better try to hold on cause Flash is going to pass everyone up
I still remember his disappointing season that lead into 2010-11, the season he became nigh untouchable. I hope he has one more of those years left in him.
If choking doesn't count against you as a player then I don't know what this power ranking is supposed to even mean. You have to put Soulkey over Innovation, the author said it themselves, it's possibly one of the biggest chokes in history.
On June 06 2013 03:15 BronzeKnee wrote: I'm shocked at the top 2 rankings.
This is just ridiculous reasoning for the ranking: When it comes down to it, Soulkey may be the GSL champion, but Innovation was just the more impressive player in May. Think of it this way: you have to bet your life on either Soulkey or Innovation in a bo1 against an arbitrary player. Who would you choose?
You could make an argument for choosing Flash (or any number of players) over Soulkey with that reasoning (heck Flash beat Soulkey in the GSL this season). And it would be just as wrong.
But what happened here is that Soulkey got slapped in the face, after it was arbitrarily decided that his win wasn't good enough, that somehow he can be ranked #2 after becoming a GSL champion by defeating the man in the finals who you ranked #1 .
How is anyone supposed to achieve #1 if they can't do it by defeating the #1 player in a best of 7 series for the most prestigious title in E-Sports? And it isn't like this is one series, both players defeated high quality opponents round after round in order to reach the finals.
Simply put, the definition of the word better was ignored here when Innovation was picked over Soulkey (by definition of the word better, the better player always wins).
Outside of the GSL, Innovation gets used more in Proleague, but their win rates are similar, at 67% for Innovation and 66% for Soulkey.
Finally, this statement really irks me [i]"It seems quite harsh that all of this would be negated by the difference of just one game, Innovation was one game away from winning, but he was there three times! The bias is such a slap in the fact to Soulkey, who remained calm and tore apart Innovation.
The ability to finish is important. So is the ability to remain calm when behind. Soulkey showed it. It was absent in Innovation.
Until Innovation is as calm under pressure and can finish like Soulkey, Soulkey is the better player by definition, because he defeated Innovation in a competitive setting. That is how the English language works.
bet·ter 1 (btr) adj. Comparative of good. 1. Greater in excellence or higher in quality. 2. More useful, suitable, or desirable: found a better way to go; a suit with a better fit than that one. 3. More highly skilled or adept: I am better at math than English. 4. Greater or larger: argued for the better part of an hour. 5. More advantageous or favorable; improved: a better chance of success. 6. Healthier or more fit than before: The patient is better today.
v.intr. To become better. Idioms:
To outdo or outwit; defeat.
Word! Does nobody read the "long" posts?? This guy actually knows how to argue.
He really doesn't, his arguments are a joke. He's trying to turn his opinion of what is considered "better" into a fact, but he failed hard at it.
Yea that wouldn't make any sense. By his definition, PartinG should be in 3rd place because he was 3-0 versus Flash this month.
It´s a power rank for a month, not a single series. If Innovation appears to be the better player for a longer stretch of time, then it absolutely makes sense to rank him above a guy who beat him. If you want the latter, you should follow the inofficial world champion thread, where the last win gets you the title, and not consistency. And it´s ok like that, because it´s a joke.
I think the battle for number 1 spot is debatable. I have no issue of it going to Innovation, but like some of the others here, I did not quite like the write-up on Soulkey, which I felt were rather demeaning, and unnecessary.
Points to consider:
- Soulkey was a beast towards the end of BW, a contender for individual leagues - Soulkey's recent SPL results are impressive - Soulkey's past GSL runs before this were rather consistent RO8 twice (almost as good as Innovation's). Also, he even 4-0 Life in one of the RO16 games. - Soulkey's overall play in the last GSL may be slightly worse than innovation, but still solid (the game against sOs was a team-kill, and should not really been looked too much into).
Hence, I don't think comparing him to Seed, Sniper and Jjajki are fair at all.
"And especially in the finals, it seemed as if Innovation had lost the championship rather than that Soulkey had won it" - I don't agree with this 'perception' (which I have explained many times in my previous posts). And even if it was true that Innovation had lost the championship, then this sole important factor disqualifies him from being Number 1.
Ultimately, I feel that the reasons given to justify Innovation being Number 1, and Soulkey being Number 2, rather unsatisfactory. My suggestion for future PR write-ups is make it short and simple, and cut out unnecessary, controversial subjective views. Whilst PR should provoke debate, I think PR should also remain fair and reasonable in the justifications made.
On June 08 2013 01:50 RKC wrote: I think the battle for number 1 spot is debatable. I have no issue of it going to Innovation, but like some of the others here, I did not quite like the write-up on Soulkey, which I felt were rather demeaning, and unnecessary.
Points to consider:
- Soulkey was a beast towards the end of BW, a contender for individual leagues - Soulkey's recent SPL results are impressive - Soulkey's past GSL runs before this were rather consistent RO8 twice (almost as good as Innovation's). Also, he even 4-0 Life in one of the RO16 games. - Soulkey's overall play in the last GSL may be slightly worse than innovation, but still solid (the game against sOs was a team-kill, and should not really been looked too much into).
Hence, I don't think comparing him to Seed, Sniper and Jjajki are fair at all.
"And especially in the finals, it seemed as if Innovation had lost the championship rather than that Soulkey had won it" - I don't agree with this 'perception' (which I have explained many times in my previous posts). And even if it was true that Innovation had lost the championship, then this sole important factor disqualifies him from being Number 1.
Ultimately, I feel that the reasons given to justify Innovation being Number 1, and Soulkey being Number 2, rather unsatisfactory. My suggestion for future PR write-ups is make it short and simple, and cut out unnecessary, controversial subjective views. Whilst PR should provoke debate, I think PR should also remain fair and reasonable in the justifications made.
That said, I look forward for the next PR.
Fair enough. The intent wasn't to demean Soulkey but rather to justify Innovation #1/Soulkey #2. It just didn't come out the way I intended it to.
On June 08 2013 03:52 tadL wrote: In Dota ranks you have been able to rank mouz and you on 3. Why are you not able to rank Soulkey and Inovation on 1 too?
Cause we(SC2 writing staff) can make the hard decisions, unlike the TL Dota writing staff.
On June 08 2013 01:50 RKC wrote: I think the battle for number 1 spot is debatable. I have no issue of it going to Innovation, but like some of the others here, I did not quite like the write-up on Soulkey, which I felt were rather demeaning, and unnecessary.
Points to consider:
- Soulkey was a beast towards the end of BW, a contender for individual leagues - Soulkey's recent SPL results are impressive - Soulkey's past GSL runs before this were rather consistent RO8 twice (almost as good as Innovation's). Also, he even 4-0 Life in one of the RO16 games. - Soulkey's overall play in the last GSL may be slightly worse than innovation, but still solid (the game against sOs was a team-kill, and should not really been looked too much into).
Hence, I don't think comparing him to Seed, Sniper and Jjajki are fair at all.
"And especially in the finals, it seemed as if Innovation had lost the championship rather than that Soulkey had won it" - I don't agree with this 'perception' (which I have explained many times in my previous posts). And even if it was true that Innovation had lost the championship, then this sole important factor disqualifies him from being Number 1.
Ultimately, I feel that the reasons given to justify Innovation being Number 1, and Soulkey being Number 2, rather unsatisfactory. My suggestion for future PR write-ups is make it short and simple, and cut out unnecessary, controversial subjective views. Whilst PR should provoke debate, I think PR should also remain fair and reasonable in the justifications made.
That said, I look forward for the next PR.
Fair enough. The intent wasn't to demean Soulkey but rather to justify Innovation #1/Soulkey #2. It just didn't come out the way I intended it to.
On June 08 2013 03:52 tadL wrote: In Dota ranks you have been able to rank mouz and you on 3. Why are you not able to rank Soulkey and Inovation on 1 too?
Cause we(SC2 writing staff) can make the hard decisions, unlike the TL Dota writing staff.
Boom, shots fired.
Sorry to focus on the negatives, monk. Everything else was fine, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. It isn't easy stating bold predictions, and strong opinions. Keep it up!
P.S. I hope it's not a ForGG v Alicia finals for WCS Global, for your sake - that would be a great headache writing the next PR lol
Interesting how (liquid member) hero got to the list while mvp got left out because Hero beat two more higher caliber players than mvp in tournament, while soulkey's GSL victory over innovation in Bo7 was widely ignored.
Also Flash is highly overrated in that power rank, he is not even close to being third best player in the starcraft 2 right now. The flash bias is so ridicilous.
What is the point of this "power rank" because this is not objective analysis at all about who is the best player currently.
On June 08 2013 22:10 Magbane wrote: Interesting how (liquid member) hero got to the list while mvp got left out because Hero beat two more higher caliber players than mvp in tournament, while soulkey's GSL victory over innovation in Bo7 was widely ignored.
Also Flash is highly overrated in that power rank, he is not even close to being third best player in the starcraft 2 right now. The flash bias is so ridicilous.
What is the point of this "power rank" because this is not objective analysis at all about who is the best player currently.
well this is a forum, and this is up for discussion, so i think the the point of the powerrank is to:
discuss, argue, gloat, fanboy, hindsightanalyze and so on!
the ranking does include facts, however how high single matches/series/achievements are rated is once again totally subjective, i dont even include Mvp in my own calculations, because i have him seeded on place 0 with a little golden shrine surrounding his picture xD
On June 08 2013 00:26 Targe wrote: lol this thread is full of so much disagreement.
Thanks monk, thanks others, you're a great guy.
The disagreement itself is part of the fun. I debate the power rank not because I think that the TL writers did some great injustice to Soulkey for instance, but because any ranking is arbitrary and there are always different choices they could have made and it's interesting to explore. I find it very annoying when people reflexively side with TL decisions and complain that you shouldn't criticize the ranking because you are hurting the writers' feelings or whatever, the entire point of the ranking is to invite criticism (or at least debate).
It seems that TL writers always try to make themselves sound like they are The fact source. Like this "power rank", which is 100% arbitrary and biased, yet they are trying to make that list sound like its somekind of fact.
What is the fucking point of that list? it has no real value. Hell, even TLPD is not good enough ranking system to define best players, its actually very bad system. According to TLPD, current best sc2 player is Life, give me a break here.
In my view, Power Rank should reflect the actual "power" players have shown within the respective month. That being said, of course winning code S is a big deal, yet it does not make you the Powerhouse of the month. I agree with most of the rankings, with the one exception of Soulkey and Flash. I would have put Flash #2 without hesitation. His month startet rough, but if you look at what his divinity has shown in the second half,I just don't see soulkey ahead. Hell, if it was a power rank consisting of the last 2 weeks, Flash would be first. But isn't that the beauty of the Power Rank? Endless debates
C'mon people, the concept of PR is great. And the execution of this PR is close to great.
We have PR the same reason why we have awards for best music, movies, sporting teams/personalities. E-sports is a much richer place than without it.
I don't see how TL has in any way represented PR as being a fact or the gospel truth. It's represented as the views of learned members in the community. You are free not to like such views or challenge them. But don't disparage their efforts, please.
i love how u guys always get wrong with ur ranks and stats!.. should stay more proffessional instead of passional.. the one u guys think are the best... are not the best for everybody... check ur thougs and your info before u post it! dawg!.
On June 08 2013 00:26 Targe wrote: lol this thread is full of so much disagreement.
Thanks monk, thanks others, you're a great guy.
The disagreement itself is part of the fun. I debate the power rank not because I think that the TL writers did some great injustice to Soulkey for instance, but because any ranking is arbitrary and there are always different choices they could have made and it's interesting to explore. I find it very annoying when people reflexively side with TL decisions and complain that you shouldn't criticize the ranking because you are hurting the writers' feelings or whatever, the entire point of the ranking is to invite criticism (or at least debate).
That's totally fair enough, there is a large difference between a well made point that's backed up and saying 'MarineKing should be no. 1 on this list, this list is bullshit'. I believe the TL writers do a great job and for the most agree with the ranking, there are a few things I would change, but it's not my ranking. ^^
I really cant figure out how forGG's shitty timing attack worked against Sos and Hero. I mean, its fucking embarrasing how he even won MSL beating LeeSSang with his timings, the only thing he was capable of. Now in starcraft 2, its even working better with the hellbats. I was hoping to see Soulkey cut Forgg into pieces but im happy mvp took care of him...
On June 08 2013 23:21 Magbane wrote: It seems that TL writers always try to make themselves sound like they are The fact source. Like this "power rank", which is 100% arbitrary and biased, yet they are trying to make that list sound like its somekind of fact.
What is the fucking point of that list? it has no real value. Hell, even TLPD is not good enough ranking system to define best players, its actually very bad system. According to TLPD, current best sc2 player is Life, give me a break here.
Power Rankings are Classic on TL, you should have seen them when it was just BW. flash, bisu, jaedong, fantasy .... if anything this list is weak, it is arbitrary but fun ... just enjoy it.
On June 08 2013 22:10 Magbane wrote: Interesting how (liquid member) hero got to the list while mvp got left out because Hero beat two more higher caliber players than mvp in tournament, while soulkey's GSL victory over innovation in Bo7 was widely ignored.
Also Flash is highly overrated in that power rank, he is not even close to being third best player in the starcraft 2 right now. The flash bias is so ridicilous.
What is the point of this "power rank" because this is not objective analysis at all about who is the best player currently.
You have to see a difference between the way HerO and Mvp have been playing lately. While their results may be close to similar HerO has been doing okay-ish in GSL while Mvp was herping around in Code B. I agree with Flash though. I would not say he does not deserve to be 3rd but rather that we don't have sufficient information. I don't think you can count an all-kill in PL as much as 4 separate kills. All-Kills happen way more often than what can be possibly explained with skill, the momentum is too important.
On June 08 2013 23:21 Magbane wrote: According to TLPD, current best sc2 player is Life, give me a break here.
That's because he is.
But power rank doesn't tell who's the best player. (For that you can also compare with Aligulac and perhaps even use other systems of your own.) Rather the power rank tells who looked hot this month. That's all. It's particularly biased, because it has to compare results from different platforms. For example, I'd say now it's a little too Proleague-biased. Players who aren't in Proleague are being dumped just for not being part of it and for not having played that much vs Proleague members lately.
On June 08 2013 23:21 Magbane wrote: According to TLPD, current best sc2 player is Life, give me a break here.
That's because he is.
But power rank doesn't tell who's the best player. (For that you can also compare with Aligulac and perhaps even use other systems of your own.) Rather the power rank tells who looked hot this month. That's all. It's particularly biased, because it has to compare results from different platforms. For example, I'd say now it's a little too Proleague-biased. Players who aren't in Proleague are being dumped just for not being part of it and for not having played that much vs Proleague members lately.
Actually, the top two players on TLPD are Soulkey and then Innovation. Life is around top 20. The TLPD stats on your right hand bar are WoL rankings. See this for HotS rankings. Aligulac also currently has Innovation as #1, then Life.
You can tell all the ppl bitching about power rank were not here in BW times.
I'd say every single person from BW knows not to take it as a fact, and the vast majority enjoy it. It's wholly subjective and it's very clearly obvious that it is.
On June 09 2013 08:21 FabledIntegral wrote: You can tell all the ppl bitching about power rank were not here in BW times.
I'd say every single person from BW knows not to take it as a fact, and the vast majority enjoy it. It's wholly subjective and it's very clearly obvious that it is.
It was more accurate in BW times though. Perhaps it has to do with how divided is the SC2 scene as of now, while in BW all relevant players took part in all events on equal grounds.
On June 09 2013 08:03 monk wrote: Aligulac also currently has Innovation as #1, then Life.
I believe at the time the Power Rank was made Life was still first though. Not that it should matter, of course. Life didn't play nearly enough as the other players, and participation matters for being hot. He's lucky to even be on the list, despite probably still being the best. If you are the best in a cave, you don't make it into PR, and that's fine.
i think people who are trying to argue against the ranking don't really get the point of all of this. It's supposed to be a review of who overall did remarkably well recently. Of course there will be people who disagree between who's N°1 and N°2, or who is at the edge of being in or out of the ranking. But in all cases it's just an occasion to get a look at the recent past events and get some instant nostalgia ( or getting a nice cover/ history of the must see actions ), all of this presented in a clear and organized way.
Or maybe it's like football and arguments about those details are part of the charm for some followers? :p
On June 09 2013 08:21 FabledIntegral wrote: You can tell all the ppl bitching about power rank were not here in BW times.
I'd say every single person from BW knows not to take it as a fact, and the vast majority enjoy it. It's wholly subjective and it's very clearly obvious that it is.
If you are familiar with other sports then you would know this as well. The whole point of power rankings is to ignite disagreement and debate. Ive yet to see an NFL PR in my 17 years of fandom that I didn't hate with a passion but also love reading and talking about at the same time.
The only one who loses with PR's is the ranker himself. Everyone thinks hes a biased idiot no matter what.
On June 09 2013 08:21 FabledIntegral wrote: You can tell all the ppl bitching about power rank were not here in BW times.
I'd say every single person from BW knows not to take it as a fact, and the vast majority enjoy it. It's wholly subjective and it's very clearly obvious that it is.
If you are familiar with other sports then you would know this as well. The whole point of power rankings is to ignite disagreement and debate. Ive yet to see an NFL PR in my 17 years of fandom that I didn't hate with a passion but also love reading and talking about at the same time.
The only one who loses with PR's is the ranker himself. Everyone thinks hes a biased idiot no matter what.
Aww, and I was thinking the person who did the rankings was pretty smart... I agreed almost completely
On June 08 2013 23:21 Magbane wrote: It seems that TL writers always try to make themselves sound like they are The fact source. Like this "power rank", which is 100% arbitrary and biased, yet they are trying to make that list sound like its somekind of fact.
What is the fucking point of that list? it has no real value. Hell, even TLPD is not good enough ranking system to define best players, its actually very bad system. According to TLPD, current best sc2 player is Life, give me a break here.
My god, you are ridiculously pissed off about this. Stop taking it so seriously.
WCS finals proved that this Power Rank was good. All Kespa players qualified from groups and Innovation won. MVP still hasn't proved that he can beat top Kespa players. Also Proleague has the best players by far. In both WCS Korea and WCS finals 3 semi-semifinalists were Kespa players.
On June 09 2013 18:11 p14c wrote: WCS finals proved that this Power Rank was good. All Kespa players qualified from groups and Innovation won. MVP still hasn't proved that he can beat top Kespa players.
Once again, Mvp beat Innovation twice, yes he lost the series but he was the only player at the finals to give Innovation trouble. Soulkey probably could have done the same but he's already #2 on the list and current GSL champion so that surprises no one.
Whilst I do think MVP (and the terran side bracket in general) had an easier run-in, I think he also deserves a place in the Power Rank above Hero. Not terribly impressed with Roro or Symbol either.
On June 09 2013 14:13 monk wrote: I counted up the disagreements made in this thread:
On the debate between Soulkey and Innovation:
Innovation > Soulkey: 39
Soulkey > Innovation: 23
On Hero's placement in #10
Hero deserves the spot: 20
Hero does not deserve the spot: 10
Kangho deserves it over Hero: 7
Hero deserves it over Kangho: 5
Kangho does not deserve it(Implying Hero deserves it): 3
MVP deserves it over Hero: 8
Hero deserves it over MVP: 10
MVP does not deserve it(Implying Hero deserves it): 2
Bomber deserves it over Hero 1
TY deserves it over HerO 1
Jangbi deserves it over HerO: 1
Hero should have been higher: 1
On placements 3-9:
Soulkey should have been lower: 1
Flash should have been higher: 2
Flash should have been lower: 6
Flash should have been over Soulkey: 1
Rain should have been over Flash: 3
Rain should have been lower: 2
Symbol should have been lower: 10
Symbol should have been higher: 1
Symbol should have been over Rain: 1
RorO should have been lower: 3
RorO should have been over Symbol: 3
Life should have been higher: 8
Life should have been lower: 2
Life's placement is good: 3
Life should have been over Flash: 1
Life should have been over Rain: 1
Life should have been over Symbol: 3
Life should have been over Roro: 3
sOs should have been lower: 2
Parting should have been lower: 4
Others:
Jangbi should have been in CBNC: 2
Kangho should have been higher: 1
Leenock should have been on the list: 1
MVP should have been over RorO: 1
I wonder why you didn't count my opinion ?!
Really, you wonder why a post counting how many people thought players should be ranked higher/lower didn't include your opinion saying how this entire thing is a pointless and a terrible mistake? You actually wonder this?
On June 09 2013 18:21 PerSe wrote: Whilst I do think MVP (and the terran side bracket in general) had an easier run-in, I think he also deserves a place in the Power Rank above Hero. Not terribly impressed with Roro or Symbol either.
Roro didn't do too bad. Him losing to Soulkey and Innovation are expected. These guys are beasts against Zerg.
10. Leenock 9. Kangho 8. Symbol 7. Rain 6. Life 5. Roro 4. Flash 3. sOs 2. Soulkey 1. Bogus
I excluded PartinG because he is just lucky. I excluded Mvp because he only beat eSF players which are by now proven to be weaker and also because he himself says that he is not actually that good.
Bringing Life, Roro and Flash into order is really hard and I am absolutely not sure about it.
On June 09 2013 08:21 FabledIntegral wrote: You can tell all the ppl bitching about power rank were not here in BW times.
I'd say every single person from BW knows not to take it as a fact, and the vast majority enjoy it. It's wholly subjective and it's very clearly obvious that it is.
it is very easy to say it now that those days are gone, but there was a lot of drama each time Flash was put above Jaedong even when Jaedong was ahead of wins in the month reviewed.
On another side, what the new guys dont know is that Power Rank once is published is never changed. so whine all you want but Hero is gonna be 10 no matter what.
On June 09 2013 08:21 FabledIntegral wrote: You can tell all the ppl bitching about power rank were not here in BW times.
I'd say every single person from BW knows not to take it as a fact, and the vast majority enjoy it. It's wholly subjective and it's very clearly obvious that it is.
it is very easy to say it now that those days are gone, but there was a lot of drama each time Flash was put above Jaedong even when Jaedong was ahead of wins in the month reviewed.
What the new guys dont know is that Power Rank once is published is never changed. so whine all you want but Hero is gonna be 10 no matter what.
I'm not whining, I'm just saying it's a very dumb pick considering he's one of the most overrated players to have played at the top level. Meanwhile Mvp has been at the top for 2 and a half years now? Sure, not consistently, but somehow he always finds his way back up there.
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
On June 09 2013 08:21 FabledIntegral wrote: You can tell all the ppl bitching about power rank were not here in BW times.
I'd say every single person from BW knows not to take it as a fact, and the vast majority enjoy it. It's wholly subjective and it's very clearly obvious that it is.
it is very easy to say it now that those days are gone, but there was a lot of drama each time Flash was put above Jaedong even when Jaedong was ahead of wins in the month reviewed.
What the new guys dont know is that Power Rank once is published is never changed. so whine all you want but Hero is gonna be 10 no matter what.
I'm not whining, I'm just saying it's a very dumb pick considering he's one of the most overrated players to have played at the top level. Meanwhile Mvp has been at the top for 2 and a half years now? Sure, not consistently, but somehow he always finds his way back up there.
i wasnt talking about you, just ppl in general,anyways, i used to complaint a lot too at the BW Power Ranks and im not ashamed lol.
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
On June 09 2013 08:21 FabledIntegral wrote: You can tell all the ppl bitching about power rank were not here in BW times.
I'd say every single person from BW knows not to take it as a fact, and the vast majority enjoy it. It's wholly subjective and it's very clearly obvious that it is.
it is very easy to say it now that those days are gone, but there was a lot of drama each time Flash was put above Jaedong even when Jaedong was ahead of wins in the month reviewed.
What the new guys dont know is that Power Rank once is published is never changed. so whine all you want but Hero is gonna be 10 no matter what.
I'm not whining, I'm just saying it's a very dumb pick considering he's one of the most overrated players to have played at the top level. Meanwhile Mvp has been at the top for 2 and a half years now? Sure, not consistently, but somehow he always finds his way back up there.
i wasnt talking about you, just ppl in general,anyways, i used to complaint a lot too at the BW Power Ranks and im not ashamed lol.
I understand you weren't talking about me, but it's such a gross generalization to assume that everyone pointing out the flaws in this is someone new who wasn't around during the BW period and doesn't understand how Power Ranks work.
I thought the choice was bullshit from the get-go and now this weekend's event proved me right.
When people doubt him most, Mvp finds a way. Maybe he didn't win this time, but he took more maps off of Bogus than everyone else combined in the Grand Finals.
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
Do you seriously, legitimately believe that which WCS region a player comes from is more important than who the player is and how good he is? (hint: everyone you mentioned has been playing very well recently)
And lol, you say "Losing to a WCS KR Korean" as if Bogus weren't the best player in the world for a while now... get over yourself.
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
It's not like that drop wasn't way back in WoL after many seasons of being in code S. Nope, not at all.
His run combined with being the only person this weekend to make Bogus sweat buys him a spot on this list.
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
Do you seriously, legitimately believe that which WCS region a player comes from is more important than who the player is and how good he is? (hint: everyone you mentioned has been playing very well recently)
And lol, you say "Losing to a WCS KR Korean" as if Bogus weren't the best player in the world for a while now... get over yourself.
Power ranking is like "best player right now." Previous results doesn't really matter that much, otherwise Flash would be #1 for a long time. So don't know why you think we should take that into account..
This means you have to take the WCS region into account since it was his most recent tournament to determine how good he is right now, right? And are you really going to argue that WCS Eu is more difficult than WCS Korea?
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
It's not like that drop wasn't way back in WoL after many seasons of being in code S. Nope, not at all.
His run combined with being the only person this weekend to make Bogus sweat buys him a spot on this list.
I only replied to him not being able to lose in a ro8. Which he did 2 seasons ago.
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run.
Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL.
And no he didn't lose in the ro8, I don't know what you're talking about. He lost in the ro32.
I will just leave it here (ok maybe he didn't win, but still very good performance nonetheless)
Though he's the WCS EU champion, he was just barely nudged out by HerO. In revenge for this snub, MVP will probably just go on to win the WCS season finals anyways.
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run.
Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL.
I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run."
If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run.
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run.
Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL.
I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run."
If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run.
Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky.
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run.
Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL.
I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run."
If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run.
Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky.
Yeah Mvp not making top ten is a tough position to take. Even if you try to discredit him, I can't honestly say that there are 10 players better. Barring other players go beast mode and Mvp crapping out of everything in the next 3 weeks, he's top 10.
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run.
Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL.
I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run."
If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run.
Same could have honestly been said about Innovation. Revival and alive may be a bit underrated, but nothing really to write home about. 2-1 Roro and 3-2 Mvp isn't exactly a dominating run.
Not saying Innovation wasn't impressive, because he was. Not saying he's not #1, because he is. But people have been trying to convince others all weekend that Mvp is basically washed up and hasn't been legitimately tested. It's an easy argument to make only if you refuse to think about it.
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run.
Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL.
I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run."
If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run.
Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky.
Terrans who could beat Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation
Flash, Maru, Keen, Fantasy, Bomber, Baby, Gumiho
Wouldn't surprise me if Lucifron / Reality / Light / Taeja / Alive / Bbyong did it. Might not have made it as close vs Bogus as Mvp did but the concept of "Winning vs Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation" would still be same.
Edit (irrelevant to this post): To clarify. I think Mvp deserves to be in top 10. I just replied to him not being able to drop out before ro8 which he has and then it spiralled out of control. I do think he deserves the spot he got in this months.
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run.
Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL.
I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run."
If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run.
Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky.
Terrans who could beat Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation
Flash, Maru, Keen, Fantasy, Bomber, Baby, Gumiho
Wouldn't surprise me if Lucifron / Reality / Light / Taeja / Alive / Bbyong did it. Might not have made it as close vs Bogus as Mvp did but the concept of "Winning vs Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation" would still be same.
Edit (unrelevant to this post): To clarify. I think Mvp deserves to be in top 10. I just replied to him not being able to drop out before ro8 which he has and then it spiralled out of control. I do think he deserves the spot he got in this months.
"could" is not the same as " did". Also, I disagree that Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong could do it.
Did you not watch Alive vs Innovation in the ro8? It was a complete massacre, Alive looks several levels below him while Mvp looked about even with him.
The original comment about Mvp not losing in the ro8 is not about " before the ro8 " It's about losing in the ro8, which he never seems to do.
^ just to chime in i think most of the terrans from "Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong" are capable of beating ryung and forgg
On June 09 2013 19:38 opterown wrote: ^ just to chime in i think most of the terrans from "Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong" are capable of beating ryung and forgg
Trolling? forGG beat Lucifron easily ( only drop games to cheese ), beat MMA (who beat Taeja, who has been playing like shit ). Alive is several level below Ryung (watch WCS AM). Infact, all of the terrans in the list, save for Bbyong have always been several level below Ryung in TvT. And nod terran in that list can even take a game off sOs, much less win a Bo3. forGG a much better than you would like to think.
Also mvp lost to Innovation is mostly due to some stupid hellbat drops battle, which he is clearly in a disadvantage because Innovation has so much speed and precision. Mvp's lategame TvT looks quite stellar.
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run.
Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL.
I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run."
If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run.
Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky.
Terrans who could beat Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation
Flash, Maru, Keen, Fantasy, Bomber, Baby, Gumiho
Wouldn't surprise me if Lucifron / Reality / Light / Taeja / Alive / Bbyong did it. Might not have made it as close vs Bogus as Mvp did but the concept of "Winning vs Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation" would still be same.
Edit (unrelevant to this post): To clarify. I think Mvp deserves to be in top 10. I just replied to him not being able to drop out before ro8 which he has and then it spiralled out of control. I do think he deserves the spot he got in this months.
"could" is not the same as " did". Also, I disagree that Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong could do it.
Did you not watch Alive vs Innovation in the ro8? It was a complete massacre, Alive looks several levels below him while Mvp looked about even with him.
The original comment about Mvp not losing in the ro8 is not about " before the ro8 " It's about losing in the ro8, which he never seems to do.
I said "Could make for an 'extremely good run'". If beating Ryung + Forgg makes for an "extremely good run, then we have had a loooot of "extremely good runs".
I am just saying you went full Tasteless with the exaggeration.
And I do sincerely believe that all players I mentioned have the potential to beat Ryung and Forgg and then lose vs Bogus to make for an "extremely good run."
ForGG being a TvT specialist... vs foreigners. And sorry, but hasn't foreign terrans always been worse than the zergs/tosses? So not only foreigners, but in their worst race. That doesn't make for a very amazing specialist imo.
Oh well this argument is stupid, I am out before something bad happens. I will read if you reply.
Once again, I do think Mvp deserved his spot. I just replied to exaggerated comments, which in hindsight I probably shouldn't have done.
On June 09 2013 19:38 opterown wrote: ^ just to chime in i think most of the terrans from "Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong" are capable of beating ryung and forgg
Trolling? forGG beat Lucifron easily ( only drop games to cheese ), beat MMA (who beat Taeja, who has been playing like shit ). Alive is several level below Ryung (watch WCS AM). Infact, all of the terrans in the list, save for Bbyong have always been several level below Ryung in TvT. And nod terran in that list can even take a game off sOs, much less win a Bo3. forGG a much better than you would like to think.
no, not trolling, i honestly think that many of those terrans are good enough to win series against ryung/forgg/mvp/sos
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run.
Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL.
I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run."
If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run.
Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky.
Terrans who could beat Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation
Flash, Maru, Keen, Fantasy, Bomber, Baby, Gumiho
Wouldn't surprise me if Lucifron / Reality / Light / Taeja / Alive / Bbyong did it. Might not have made it as close vs Bogus as Mvp did but the concept of "Winning vs Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation" would still be same.
Edit (unrelevant to this post): To clarify. I think Mvp deserves to be in top 10. I just replied to him not being able to drop out before ro8 which he has and then it spiralled out of control. I do think he deserves the spot he got in this months.
"could" is not the same as " did". Also, I disagree that Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong could do it.
Did you not watch Alive vs Innovation in the ro8? It was a complete massacre, Alive looks several levels below him while Mvp looked about even with him.
The original comment about Mvp not losing in the ro8 is not about " before the ro8 " It's about losing in the ro8, which he never seems to do.
I said "Could make for an 'extremely good run'". If beating Ryung + Forgg makes for an "extremely good run, then we have had a loooot of "extremely good runs".
I am just saying you went full Tasteless with the exaggeration.
And I do sincerely believe that all players I mentioned have the potential to beat Ryung and Forgg and then lose vs Bogus to make for an "extremely good run."
ForGG being a TvT specialist... vs foreigners. And sorry, but hasn't foreign terrans always been worse than the zergs/tosses? So not only foreigners, but in their worst race. That doesn't make for a very amazing specialist imo.
Oh well this argument is stupid, I am out before something bad happens. I will read if you reply.
Once again, I do think Mvp deserved his spot. I just replied to exaggerated comments, which in hindsight I probably shouldn't have done.
Nothing bad can come of this, I enjoy these discussions and I will keep it civil if you will.
ForGG's record is absolutely inflated by playing easier European opponents, however before losing to Mvp it was at a staggering 94% in HotS. And that was not under a small number of games but at least 50. You have to be damn good at a match up to have that high of a win rate even if It's against easier opponents.
Beating Ryung and ForGG alone does not make an amazing run, I'm including the two wins against Innovation in the amazing run. If he had looked as bad as Alive did and been 3-0'd by Innovation I would not be singing the same tune as I am right now.
On June 09 2013 19:38 opterown wrote: ^ just to chime in i think most of the terrans from "Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong" are capable of beating ryung and forgg
Trolling? forGG beat Lucifron easily ( only drop games to cheese ), beat MMA (who beat Taeja, who has been playing like shit ). Alive is several level below Ryung (watch WCS AM). Infact, all of the terrans in the list, save for Bbyong have always been several level below Ryung in TvT. And nod terran in that list can even take a game off sOs, much less win a Bo3. forGG a much better than you would like to think.
no, not trolling, i honestly think that many of those terrans are good enough to win series against ryung/forgg/mvp/sos
On June 09 2013 19:38 opterown wrote: ^ just to chime in i think most of the terrans from "Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong" are capable of beating ryung and forgg
Trolling? forGG beat Lucifron easily ( only drop games to cheese ), beat MMA (who beat Taeja, who has been playing like shit ). Alive is several level below Ryung (watch WCS AM). Infact, all of the terrans in the list, save for Bbyong have always been several level below Ryung in TvT. And nod terran in that list can even take a game off sOs, much less win a Bo3. forGG a much better than you would like to think.
no, not trolling, i honestly think that many of those terrans are good enough to win series against ryung/forgg/mvp/sos
Yes, you think. Nice argument!
i'm not arguing lol, i'm stating my opinion. not much of an argument
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run.
Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL.
I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run."
If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run.
Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky.
Terrans who could beat Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation
Flash, Maru, Keen, Fantasy, Bomber, Baby, Gumiho
Wouldn't surprise me if Lucifron / Reality / Light / Taeja / Alive / Bbyong did it. Might not have made it as close vs Bogus as Mvp did but the concept of "Winning vs Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation" would still be same.
Edit (irrelevant to this post): To clarify. I think Mvp deserves to be in top 10. I just replied to him not being able to drop out before ro8 which he has and then it spiralled out of control. I do think he deserves the spot he got in this months.
Do you even watch this game? Flash is probably the only person you listed who is that good at TvT. Again, previous results are irrelevant and all that. GuMiHo and Bomber? Overrated as fuck. BaBy? What are you smoking? Keen maybe on a good day, FantaSy certainly not yet as much as I'd like him to be back in his BW form.
And lol, nobody said Mvp is not able to drop out before Ro8, it was a joke that he never lost in a Ro8 EVER, he either dropped out before or afterwards...
If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals?
On June 09 2013 20:32 Magbane wrote: If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals?
On June 09 2013 20:32 Magbane wrote: If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals?
but innovation is the best rts player of all time
Is he the best age of empires player? or best company of heroes player?
The whole "best rts player of all time" title is so stupid. If you are best starcraft player, it does not mean you are best player in all rts games. Hell, those sc pros dont even have time to practise other rts game to beat the best aoe players etc.
Its like saying that nuclear bomb is the best weapon of all, while in reality you cant fucking nuke everyone if you are gonna go raid some crack lab.
On June 09 2013 20:32 Magbane wrote: If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals?
So many things...
BW was the biggest RTS game in history. Flash was the best player in the biggest game. That's a strong argument for his being the best of all time, especially considering his stellar results after switching to a new game.
Missing one finals =/= not the best of all time. Michael Jordan didn't go to every single finals, didn't win every single game. He is still considered by many (probably most) to be the best of all time. The best of all time does not mean dominance at one moment in time, in fact it means the exact opposite: dominance over an extended period. Flash has shown dominance over an extended period of time.
Also, let's not forget that Flash was one reaper-rush away from beating Innovation 2-0. That could have changed everything right there. But for that BO loss, we might be talking about our new GSL, WCS champion Flash.
Look at his win-ratio, his second place finish at MLG, his performance in PL, his performance in the GSL (very good if you consider his opponents)... he is definitely in a dominating position. I would argue that as of yet he hasn't put up the results to be considered the best in this game, but he is fully capable of beating any opponent, and likely to beat 99.9% of pro-gamers right now. There is a very good argument that he actually might be the best Terran in the world.
By your logic, we shouldn't call Mvp the "King of Wings" because jjakji won a GSL too.
On June 09 2013 20:30 Daswollvieh wrote: I hear somebody does not deserve something he legitimately played for in SC2. This is news to me.
Nope. He didn't play for a placing in Power Rank, he played for tournaments, some of which he won and many of which he didn't. Nobody is contesting that HerO deserved to win tournaments or even some particular match, since his play at the time was great.
And hey, guess what, HerO is also the prime example of a player who can win on a good day but almost always chokes massively on the biggest stage, that alone ought to be considered heavily.
But hey, it's nice to throw a strawman here and there and hope it sticks.
On June 09 2013 20:32 Magbane wrote: If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals?
BW was the biggest RTS game in history. Flash was the best player in the biggest game. That's a strong argument for his being the best of all time, especially considering his stellar results after switching to a new game.
Read my previous post.
Being the best rts player of all time, means that you could replace every rts players in the world with that person. You cant replace best aoe2 player with flash or innovation or anyone who is not good at aoe 2 etc.
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run.
Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL.
I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run."
If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run.
Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky.
Terrans who could beat Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation
Flash, Maru, Keen, Fantasy, Bomber, Baby, Gumiho
Wouldn't surprise me if Lucifron / Reality / Light / Taeja / Alive / Bbyong did it. Might not have made it as close vs Bogus as Mvp did but the concept of "Winning vs Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation" would still be same.
Edit (unrelevant to this post): To clarify. I think Mvp deserves to be in top 10. I just replied to him not being able to drop out before ro8 which he has and then it spiralled out of control. I do think he deserves the spot he got in this months.
"could" is not the same as " did". Also, I disagree that Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong could do it.
Did you not watch Alive vs Innovation in the ro8? It was a complete massacre, Alive looks several levels below him while Mvp looked about even with him.
The original comment about Mvp not losing in the ro8 is not about " before the ro8 " It's about losing in the ro8, which he never seems to do.
This was something I didn't get about aLive vs Bogus. ALive has said many times his weakest matchup is TvZ whilst his strongest is TvT. I believe Bogus's weakest is TvT? Yet Bogus just fucking rolled him.
I'm not the biggest (and not even a fan) fan of Mvp, (hard to be his fan if you are a MKP fan haha) but it was so damn good to see him perform this well in the WCS, almost beating Innovation in what seemed even games, after so much shit was said upon him. A GSL champion should never be underestimated, yet alone a multiple GSL winner.
However, the Soulkey #2 spot seems to be the right one, he is not "invincible" enough to be ranked #1.
On June 06 2013 02:02 ffadicted wrote: Thank you for not chickening out and putting a lesser player than innovation at #1 just because he won the GSL. It's no question to anyone that ACTUALLY follows sc2 and majority of proleague and tourneys (instead of just tunning in for GSL semis/finals) that innovation is the better player. Also surprised you guys didn't wait until the seasonal finals to write this, should be very telling. Hopefully when innovation wins that handily, people will understand
On June 09 2013 20:32 Magbane wrote: If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals?
BW was the biggest RTS game in history. Flash was the best player in the biggest game. That's a strong argument for his being the best of all time, especially considering his stellar results after switching to a new game.
Read my previous post.
Being the best rts player of all time, means that you could replace every rts players in the world with that person. You cant replace best aoe2 player with flash or innovation or anyone who is not good at aoe 2 etc.
It is a safe bet that Flash and/or Innovation would have dominated those scenes if they had played in them.
Your standard for the best of all time is ridiculous.
On June 09 2013 18:45 Naphal wrote: hmm hmm now i can expect Mvp in the top10 next month right? and from there it begins, the conquest of the number 1 seat!
Mvp should be at the 8th spot until he finally manages to lose in a ro8.
It's not like he completely dropped out of Code A in Korea, nope, not at all.
Also he was lucky because his road this WCS was relatively easy.
Beating foreigners in EU -> Beat 1 WCS KR (Losira) and lost to a non WCS KR (Alicia) in ro16 -> Facing a non WCS KR in ro8 (forgg) -> Losing to a WCS KR Korean (Innovation).
Most over-the-weekend events are a lot harder than that run.
Beating Ryung and Forgg in TvT, then almost beat Innovation in TvT is an extremely good run.
Him falling out of GSL is irrelevant to the current situation, it was in WoL.
I think we have a very different definition on what is an "extremely good run."
If beating Forgg + Ryung into losing vs Innovation makes for an "extremely good run". Then there are quite a few terrans who could make for an extremely good run.
Like who? I'm curious about your opinion on this because it doesn't make sense to me. Ryung and ForGG are TvT masters, Innovation is the current #1 power rank player and WCS season 1 champion. What other Terrans have had performances like that recently? I'll give credit to ForGG for defeating sOs but sOs' PvT seems really shaky.
Terrans who could beat Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation
Flash, Maru, Keen, Fantasy, Bomber, Baby, Gumiho
Wouldn't surprise me if Lucifron / Reality / Light / Taeja / Alive / Bbyong did it. Might not have made it as close vs Bogus as Mvp did but the concept of "Winning vs Forgg + Ryung -> Losing vs Innovation" would still be same.
Edit (unrelevant to this post): To clarify. I think Mvp deserves to be in top 10. I just replied to him not being able to drop out before ro8 which he has and then it spiralled out of control. I do think he deserves the spot he got in this months.
"could" is not the same as " did". Also, I disagree that Maru, Fantasy, Keen, Lucifron, Reality, Light, Taeja, Alive and Bbyong could do it.
Did you not watch Alive vs Innovation in the ro8? It was a complete massacre, Alive looks several levels below him while Mvp looked about even with him.
The original comment about Mvp not losing in the ro8 is not about " before the ro8 " It's about losing in the ro8, which he never seems to do.
This was something I didn't get about aLive vs Bogus. ALive has said many times his weakest matchup is TvZ whilst his strongest is TvT. I believe Bogus's weakest is TvT? Yet Bogus just fucking rolled him.
Despite fairly weak recent showings from aLive, his TvT is 185 wins out of 314 games (59% winrate) and his highest rating is indeed in TvT. (1578 vs his overall average of 1506) Bogus' TvT is his highest winrate (a whopping 69%), but it's over far less games (37 wins out of 54) and of course less time as well. His TvT is however his lowest rating (1929 vs his overall average of 2008).
Well they dont, they probably never have played it or played very little thus they cant play it at high level. It is ridicilous to go with "i think they would dominate IF they played it".
Its only logical to say that you cant say that someone is best "rts player" in the world if he is good at one game. "Best" means you are better than everyone, and in this case they are not the best.
The reason no one with normal reasoning skills would say that someone is "best rts player" or something were "best weapon", is that "rts" and "weapon" and such are general terms for wide variety of things.
On June 09 2013 20:51 Magbane wrote: Well they dont, they probably never have played it or played very little thus they cant play it at high level. It is ridicilous to go with "i think they would dominate IF they played it".
Its only logical to say that you cant say that someone is best "rts player" in the world if he is good at one game. "Best" means you are better than everyone, and in this case they are not the best.
Let's focus on flash. He was not "good at one game". He was the best in one game, and is one of the best in another game. He is the second most money making pro-gamer of all time. That's not only counting RTS, but all pro-games. He had an astounding 71.74% win ratio overall in the biggest RTS game with the hardest competition in the world. His final record was 457-180. It is definitely a safe bet that he has enough RTS skill and dedication that he would dominate any RTS he played. Perhaps not be the best in every single one, but be a contender in all of them.
The best of all time doesn't mean that you are the best in every facet. It just means that you are overall, the best. If not Flash then who? There has to be a best, by definition.
edit: weapons and pro-gamers aren't really comparable... let's stick to people.
*sight* I already addressed that argument, please try to understand. And money is ridicilous argument to begin with.
Flash is very talented person and one of the best starcraft players, but like I said, we cannot reasonably claim that he or anyone is the "best rts player". Like we cant say that one weapon is best weapon in the world.
On June 09 2013 20:51 Magbane wrote: Well they dont, they probably never have played it or played very little thus they cant play it at high level. It is ridicilous to go with "i think they would dominate IF they played it".
Its only logical to say that you cant say that someone is best "rts player" in the world if he is good at one game. "Best" means you are better than everyone, and in this case they are not the best.
Let's focus on flash. He was not "good at one game". He was the best in one game, and is one of the best in another game. He is the second most money making pro-gamer of all time. That's not only counting RTS, but all pro-games. He had an astounding 71.74% win ratio overall in the biggest RTS game with the hardest competition in the world. His final record was 457-180. It is definitely a safe bet that he has enough RTS skill and dedication that he would dominate any RTS he played. Perhaps not be the best in every single one, but be a contender in all of them.
The best of all time doesn't mean that you are the best in every facet. It just means that you are overall, the best. If not Flash then who? There has to be a best, by definition.
edit: weapons and pro-gamers aren't really comparable... let's stick to people.
To further focus on Flash and compare it to something compareable:
Both Grubby and Flash are legends within their game (wc3 and BW). Yet Flash is having more success within Heart of the Swarm which is a new game for both of them and they started roughly the same time. Which would make Flash the better RTS player. (Grubby is still amazing though <3)
The best RTS players tries their luck in SC2. If you are a really talented RTS player and you believe you are one of the best, you would play sc2. Because that's where the competition is and where you would prove yourself.
Why do you want that desperately use term "best rts player"? If we were to just say that flash or someone is "best starcraft player", it doesnt take away from their skill.
"Best rts player" just does not make sense, it is not logical thing to say. "Best" means you can replace anyone, you cant replace best aoe players with flash currently, thus he is not the best "rts player" in the world. End of discussion.
On June 09 2013 21:01 Magbane wrote: *sight* I already addressed that argument, please try to understand. And money is ridicilous argument to begin with.
So we can't use results, or stats, or money won.... we just go off... gut feeling?
Like I said before, your comparison from weapons to pro-gamers is ridiculous. You're past comparing apples and oranges and into apples and skyscraper territory now...
On June 09 2013 20:32 Magbane wrote: If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals?
but innovation is the best rts player of all time
Is he the best age of empires player? or best company of heroes player?
The whole "best rts player of all time" title is so stupid. If you are best starcraft player, it does not mean you are best player in all rts games. Hell, those sc pros dont even have time to practise other rts game to beat the best aoe players etc.
Its like saying that nuclear bomb is the best weapon of all, while in reality you cant fucking nuke everyone if you are gonna go raid some crack lab.
Well, all rts games are the same in a sense, they are expressions of a common idea. If you excel in one of them then you have claims to being a good rts player, not just a good starcraft player.
The weapon analogy was good analogy, weapons are designed for different uses. There are different rts games and mastering one does not mean you master all of them.
On June 09 2013 20:51 Magbane wrote: Well they dont, they probably never have played it or played very little thus they cant play it at high level. It is ridicilous to go with "i think they would dominate IF they played it".
Its only logical to say that you cant say that someone is best "rts player" in the world if he is good at one game. "Best" means you are better than everyone, and in this case they are not the best.
The reason no one with normal reasoning skills would say that someone is "best rts player" or something were "best weapon", is that "rts" and "weapon" and such are general terms for wide variety of things.
It's very easy to say that perhaps there are RTS games harder than Brood War, or with better game design than Brood War. And that may well be true. But you must not forget that professional Brood War was a massively competitive cut-throat scene where the top players lived in team-houses and ate and breathed this game for hours upon hours every day. And even then, very few of them made it to the top.
Yes, luck and other outside circumstances factored a great deal into why Brood War became so big in Korea. And yes, few other games were ever given this possibility. And yes, perhaps some would have proven themselves to be even better games eventually. But such is life, and it stands the progaming industry in Korea developed into one of the most, if not the single most cut-throat competitive gaming scene there ever was.
The foreign scene, similar to the entire scene of other RTS games in terms of scale, perhaps a bit bigger, was unbelievably outmatched at the height of the skill level's maturity, so much so that its most talented exponents got utterly crushed when pitted against Koreans.
So there's my argument for Brood War being the best RTS game. The scale of it, both as an industry and as a competition. And I have every confidence that if Kespa were ever to have switched to a different RTS game with good design and potential for skilled play, they would have eventually dominated that too, off the back of their talented players and insane training schedule.
As for FlaSh being the best RTS player of all time, I don't know. I don't know if he could beat Moon at WC3 with sufficient practice, but I do know that he showed up into the hardest competitive gaming scene as a youngster and won a Star League at the age of 15, now standing as the most talented and skilled exponent of arguably the hardest eSport. And I know that's got to count for something.
On June 09 2013 21:05 Magbane wrote: "Best" means you can replace anyone.
This is the problem right here: your criteria for "Best" is "Best in every single facet of every single game". That is not the actual definition, nor is it most other people's criteria. Under most people's criteria, flash qualifies as the best of all time.
On June 09 2013 21:16 NicksonReyes wrote: "Best" + Show Spoiler +
Hahaha nice.
@sc2superfan101, of course his argument fails, all he's doing is squabbling over the semantics of a word whose meaning is relative and abstract in and of itself, instead of looking at the big picture
On June 09 2013 21:16 Magbane wrote: I dont see your counter argument here
So all you're doing is trying to win some imaginary internet argument instead of actually trying to prove a tangible point? Nice...
There is nothing abstract or relative here. The question is, is flash or someone "the best rts player", and answer is absolutely no. Sure, innovation or flash could be "best starcraft player" but it is not same as "best rts player".
On June 09 2013 21:19 Magbane wrote: There is nothing abstract or relative here. The question is, is flash or someone "the best rts player", and answer is absolutely no.
Read my post on the previous page and refute what I said, if you're going to be so "absolute" about it.
And yes, being the best is relative. You can never be best at anything without comparing yourself to others. If there's only one person doing some given thing, he's the best at it, no matter how poor he may objectively be. When you're the best in a much more competitive environment where everyone is trying to be the best, you're also objectively good, which means you should be the best in a less competitive, similar environment as well.
Your argument has already been addressed. It just doesnt matter how big is the starcraft scene compared to others, if you cant replace best aoe player with best starcraft player, then this best starcraft player cannot possibly be the best rts player. This concept is very simple.
we dont have "the best rts player" and this will never happen. The same in sports. One is the best in the biggest rts/real game doesnt mean he is the best rts/real player, actually very simple to understand.
On June 09 2013 21:24 Dingodile wrote: we dont have "the best rts player" and this will never happen. The same in sports. One is the best in the biggest rts/real game doesnt mean he is the best rts/real player, actually very simple to understand.
On June 09 2013 21:24 Magbane wrote: Your argument has already been addressed. It just doesnt matter how big is the starcraft scene compared to others, if you cant replace best aoe player with best starcraft player, then this best starcraft player cannot possibly be the best rts player. This concept is very simple.
What do you not understand about your definition of best being relative and that not everyone shares that particular criteria?
Does flash exceed all other RTS players in money? Yes. Achievement? Yes. Fame... well maybe not Boxer, but excluding him and a few others... yes. Stats? Yes, or at least, one of the best. According to the definition given: he can be considered the best. He exceeds all other RTS players in many ways.
Best of something =/= best in every single facet of that thing. Just like I can say Michael Jordan is the best basketball player, but maybe not the best defender of all time, or the best three-point shooter, or the best dunker. He is extremely good at all of those things, but he could be outclassed in one or two of them by a specialist player. It is not a fact that "best RTS player" means "best in every RTS". That is your opinion.
Its unbelieveable how this simple concept is impossible to be understood by you guys, and then you keep going on with non-relevant "arguments". If you cant do better than that, the discussion is over.
On June 09 2013 21:24 Dingodile wrote: we dont have "the best rts player" and this will never happen. The same in sports. One is the best in the biggest rts/real game doesnt mean he is the best rts/real player, actually very simple to understand.
No, the reason we don't have this in sports is owed to 2 factors:
1. Most sports are very different from one another making it very hard to be reasonably good at multiple sports at the same time. Pitching is baseball is completely different to shooting hoops in basketball, or kicking in football or hitting the puck in hockey and so on and so forth. Most RTS games are fairly interchangeable in terms of their mechanics however, with relatively minor differences.
2. There are many sports that are hugely competitive, with massive following, lots of amateur and casual players (see: high school and college football, basketball, baseball etc). In competitive gaming, the opposite is true, very few games can be considered even remotely prosperous. Which is why someone who has competed in the most cut-throat progaming environment and can afford to practice a lot more will surely reach the top level in similar games with a much smaller scene.
On June 09 2013 21:31 Magbane wrote: Its unbelieveable how this simple concept is impossible to be understood by you guys, and then you keep going on with non-relevant "arguments". If you cant do better than that, the discussion is over.
Listen kid, if you're not going to go into detail without simply dismissing everything as "lol this simple y u no understand lololo" then yeah, the discussion is over. You're only making a fool out of yourself, provided you actually hold these narrow-minded, childish beliefs.
On June 09 2013 21:31 Magbane wrote: Its unbelieveable how this simple concept is impossible to be understood by you guys, and then you keep going on with non-relevant "arguments". If you cant do better than that, the discussion is over.
Dude... I understand your argument. I disagree with your criteria for what constitutes "the best"... how can you not see that?
On June 09 2013 20:32 Magbane wrote: If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals?
BW was the biggest RTS game in history. Flash was the best player in the biggest game. That's a strong argument for his being the best of all time, especially considering his stellar results after switching to a new game.
Read my previous post.
Being the best rts player of all time, means that you could replace every rts players in the world with that person. You cant replace best aoe2 player with flash or innovation or anyone who is not good at aoe 2 etc.
That's simply not true. You can't replace the best defender of all time with Gretzky, because Gretzky is not the best defender of all time, despite being the best hockey player of all time. You're mistaken about what it means to be the best.
Magbane please just stop posting, you are just going on and on about your definition which ofcourse is impossible to argue against since you made it up
Anyway, seems they were right to put Innovation on top!
Btw there is clear difference in being "potentially best at all rts games" and "being the best at all rts games". Also I question that flash could even be that dominative in other games, it is not quaranteed fact.
I am gonna try to explain one last time, if you dont understand it now you will never understand it.
1. amount of money earned is not relevant, it does not say anything about how good you are with other games, it just says that the scene of the game played is wealthy. 2. achievement? does winning gsl make you better aoe player? 3. fame? not all games are as popular, and "fame" is relative concept. Flash is not a big name in all scenes. 4. stats? does having 15-3 stats in proleague increase your stats in other games such as aoe2?
"Best rts player" term would mean, that person who holds this title could replace EVERYONE in their respective games. Word "best" is relative on the otherhand, you can be "the best starcraft player", or "the best aoe player", but you cannot be best in all of them. Rts player is a general term which covers all rts players of all rts games in the world.
Again, you guys should check the word "best" in the dictionary.
On June 09 2013 20:32 Magbane wrote: If flash was "the best rts player in the history" (which is retarded thing to say because starcraft is not the only RTS game in the world), how come he is not dominating the scene, while soulkey won GSL and flash did not even get into finals?
BW was the biggest RTS game in history. Flash was the best player in the biggest game. That's a strong argument for his being the best of all time, especially considering his stellar results after switching to a new game.
Read my previous post.
Being the best rts player of all time, means that you could replace every rts players in the world with that person. You cant replace best aoe2 player with flash or innovation or anyone who is not good at aoe 2 etc.
That's simply not true. You can't replace the best defender of all time with Gretzky, because Gretzky is not the best defender of all time, despite being the best hockey player of all time. You're mistaken about what it means to be the best.
One more thing, if you seriously believe that "FlaSh is not the best RTS player of all time because he wasn't the best player in X game" is a valid argument, then rofl to you. He wasn't the best player in X game because he never bothered to play X game, because X game didn't have any money and was largely a dead game beyond the amateur level (this does not apply to WC3). But I assure you that if he truly wanted it and Kespa would've allowed it, he would've rolled over those X games as well, and so would've many other Kespa pros and I'd bet even some of our eSF pros from SC2.
But as it stands, that's a very petty argument to make that ignores any reasoning or evidence. What you're saying is basically "oh it didn't happen therefore it could never conceivably have happened".
Let me tell you something, there has only been one player who changed from game to game outside of a single franchise and found reasonable success. Fatal1ty, aka Johnathan Wendel, was one of the best progamers in the western fps scene in the early early days. He started out as a Quake player, where he was quite good, and as interest began to rise in competitive gaming in the West, more tournaments were held for various other games (with insane prize money). Fatal1ty saw that he wasn't top dog in Quake anymore, and that there was easy money available in other scenes (because there weren't that many players playing, or because few could afford to practice hardcore) and switched to those games and became top dog there. And for this, he was considered the best progamer of all time at the time, and for many still is. I don't personally agree with his choices or his personality, but he saw the opportunity and took it, and remains one of the best earning progamers of all time.
He was the only one to try this, because there was monetary incentive. Why would FlaSh dominate a lesser game, when he can dominate the hardest game and make 300k a year plus winnings? He could, but it's absurd that he would.
On June 09 2013 21:43 Magbane wrote: Btw there is clear difference in being "potentially best at all rts games" and "being the best at all rts games". Also I question that flash could even be that dominative in other games, it is not quaranteed fact.
I am gonna try to explain one last time, if you dont understand it now you will never understand it.
1. amount of money earned is not relevant, it does not say anything about how good you are with other games, it just says that the scene of the game played is wealthy. 2. achievement? does winning gsl make you better aoe player? 3. fame? not all games are as popular, and "fame" is relative concept. Flash is not a big name in all scenes. 4. stats? does having 15-3 stats in proleague increase your stats in other games such as aoe2?
"Best rts player" term would mean, that person who holds this title could replace EVERYONE in their respective games. Word "best" is relative on the otherhand, you can be "the best starcraft player", or "the best aoe player", but you cannot be best in all of them. Rts player is a general term which covers all rts players of all rts games in the world.
Again, you guys should check the word "best" in the dictionary.
So all you can do is argue semantics? I don't know if there's a language barrier or you're simply so narrow-minded that you can't entertain this kind of speculative theorizing.
"he would dominate if he played" that is meaningless rambling. Fact is that he is not even playing those games. No point on continuing this discussion anymore.
On June 09 2013 21:43 Magbane wrote: Btw there is clear difference in being "potentially best at all rts games" and "being the best at all rts games". Also I question that flash could even be that dominative in other games, it is not quaranteed fact.
I am gonna try to explain one last time, if you dont understand it now you will never understand it.
1. amount of money earned is not relevant, it does not say anything about how good you are with other games, it just says that the scene of the game played is wealthy. 2. achievement? does winning gsl make you better aoe player? 3. fame? not all games are as popular, and "fame" is relative concept. Flash is not a big name in all scenes. 4. stats? does having 15-3 stats in proleague increase your stats in other games such as aoe2?
"Best rts player" term would mean, that person who holds this title could replace EVERYONE in their respective games. Word "best" is relative on the otherhand, you can be "the best starcraft player", or "the best aoe player", but you cannot be best in all of them. Best rts player is a general term which covers all rts players of all rts games in the world.
Again, you guys should check the word "best" in the dictionary.
Btw, there is a clear difference between "being the best at all rts games" and "being the best rts player"
Flash is an RTS player. He is considered the best in one game. He is also considered one of the best in another game. Could any other RTS players top that? No? Then he's better than everyone
He might not be able to replace the best AoE2 player, but whoever that is, he most probably isn't also considered one of the best in another game unlike Flash so you can say that Flash is a better RTS player than him :D
Don't bother Nickson, this one-day-old account doesn't believe in reasoning or logic, only in textbook definitions of abstract words and how to rigidly use them in shoddy arguments. ^^
Its sad how people cant settle for "best starcraft player" title, they have to raise those players in to even higher status even if it does not make logically sense. Well, no wonder people call flash "god".
Another problem are the national/regional interests. NA: basketball > football EU: football > basketball EU football > ice hockey Canada: ice hockey > football ... the same with computer games. korea: sc1 > wc3 china: wc3 >sc1 EU: CS1.6 > Crossfire Asia: Crossfire > CS1.6 ... eidt:
On June 09 2013 22:01 Magbane wrote: Its sad how people cant settle for "best starcraft player" title, they have to raise those players in to even higher status even if it does not make logically sense. Well, no wonder people call flash "god".
"best starcraft player" is not the problem. problem is that many think that the best of the biggest rts game = best rts player overall. The same in sports. Who is better? Michale Jordan or Michael Schumacher? Or closer: Roger Federer vs Timo Boll (Tennis vs Table Tennis).
Innovation is the undisputed best SC2 player in the world at the moment, pretty much every series he played was a stomp, where he's just looked a class above his opponent. The two games he lost to MVP were purely due to build order losses - he went for bio on a mech favoured map when he had a big lead, but the map made it too easy for MVP to turtle up and go for deathball. The other game he lost to MVP was because he gambled on a proxy marauder rush that did no damage. The three games he won, yes it was because his hellbat control is better than MVP.
Hellbat drop play in TvT actually requires an insane amount of skill. It just requires a hugh amount of multitasking, decision making, reaction time, unit splitting, precise position, and has a near limitless skill ceiling, and really differentiates the best from the rest. I love watching hellbat drops in TvT, just because usually for it to be effective, you need to combo multiple attacks, but also have the defense to react to the potential hellbat drops/min drops/ bio drops/ banshee which is why I think TvT is now a much more demanding matchup skillwise than it was previously. In the past, it was all about marine tank wars, and trying to contain your opponent, whilst trading efficiently, and going for a doom drop if there is an opportunity. Now it is more about harassing and defending harass, whilst teching and multitasking, and eventually out macro, or transition into sky terran :D
On June 09 2013 22:10 Lock0n wrote: The two games he lost to MVP were purely due to build order losses - he went for bio on a mech favoured map when he had a big lead, but the map made it too easy for MVP to turtle up and go for deathball. The other game he lost to MVP was because he gambled on a proxy marauder rush that did no damage. The three games he won, yes it was because his hellbat control is better than MVP.
Wha... but.....what.... Build order loss? Going bio isn't a "build order", it was a style of play he went for. It's not like he flipped a coin and said "Well I'll go bio and hopefully he doesn't go mech" which would make no sense at all since most people play mech. I can 100% guarantee that Innovation was well aware of the fact that he was going bio on that map. The only "build order loss" in that game was the one that resulted in Mvp having 9 SCV's to Innovations' 30. Jesus, your comment truly astounds me.
And it's funny that you say he only lost because he "gambled" on a marauder rush as if there is no gamble in rushing hellbat drops, and also how hellbat play requires an insane amount of skill (which I don't contest at all, obviously) as if other strategies don't.
Hero is too overrated, he beat Flash, yes he did, but that was bo1 and cheese, cheese is pretty acceptable but it shouldn't count as skill, and he barely won WCS America, for being a top 10 he should have won that tournament easy, why do you think Revival was in the finals?
IMO the PR should move this way after this weekend : * Symbol gets 9th place * HerO drops out of the 10 * Mvp comes in and earn an 8ish place * sOs goes up * roro goes down * the rest stays the same way
On June 09 2013 23:20 HonorZ wrote: IMO the PR should move this way after this weekend : * Symbol gets 9th place * HerO drops out of the 10 * Mvp comes in and earn an 8ish place * sOs goes up * roro goes down * the rest stays the same way
I suppose monk wants this to be a monthly installment.
On June 09 2013 23:20 HonorZ wrote: IMO the PR should move this way after this weekend : * Symbol gets 9th place * HerO drops out of the 10 * Mvp comes in and earn an 8ish place * sOs goes up * roro goes down * the rest stays the same way
I suppose monk wants this to be a monthly installment.
Yes of course, I was just speculating about what the current standings of the player could be following the season 1 finals. Since the OSL starts quite early this month, that order will assurely change, especially with new big names in Code S such as Jangbi !
On June 09 2013 22:10 Lock0n wrote: Innovation is the undisputed best SC2 player in the world at the moment, pretty much every series he played was a stomp, where he's just looked a class above his opponent. The two games he lost to MVP were purely due to build order losses - he went for bio on a mech favoured map when he had a big lead, but the map made it too easy for MVP to turtle up and go for deathball. The other game he lost to MVP was because he gambled on a proxy marauder rush that did no damage. The three games he won, yes it was because his hellbat control is better than MVP.
Hellbat drop play in TvT actually requires an insane amount of skill. It just requires a hugh amount of multitasking, decision making, reaction time, unit splitting, precise position, and has a near limitless skill ceiling, and really differentiates the best from the rest. I love watching hellbat drops in TvT, just because usually for it to be effective, you need to combo multiple attacks, but also have the defense to react to the potential hellbat drops/min drops/ bio drops/ banshee which is why I think TvT is now a much more demanding matchup skillwise than it was previously. In the past, it was all about marine tank wars, and trying to contain your opponent, whilst trading efficiently, and going for a doom drop if there is an opportunity. Now it is more about harassing and defending harass, whilst teching and multitasking, and eventually out macro, or transition into sky terran :D
Like game 4 isn't a BO loss for Mvp (mine drop < hellbat drop). Game 5 he lost because he donated a bunch of SCVs to hellbat. I watch all the games, and it wasn't as pretty as you seem to make it. Marine tank war have produced a majority of epic games in SC2, and it hasn't happen with hellbats.
On June 09 2013 22:10 Lock0n wrote: The two games he lost to MVP were purely due to build order losses - he went for bio on a mech favoured map when he had a big lead, but the map made it too easy for MVP to turtle up and go for deathball. The other game he lost to MVP was because he gambled on a proxy marauder rush that did no damage. The three games he won, yes it was because his hellbat control is better than MVP.
Wha... but.....what.... Build order loss? Going bio isn't a "build order", it was a style of play he went for. It's not like he flipped a coin and said "Well I'll go bio and hopefully he doesn't go mech" which would make no sense at all since most people play mech. I can 100% guarantee that Innovation was well aware of the fact that he was going bio on that map. The only "build order loss" in that game was the one that resulted in Mvp having 9 SCV's to Innovations' 30. Jesus, your comment truly astounds me.
And it's funny that you say he only lost because he "gambled" on a marauder rush as if there is no gamble in rushing hellbat drops, and also how hellbat play requires an insane amount of skill (which I don't contest at all, obviously) as if other strategies don't.
I have no clue what that guy is smoking, but sign me up.
LG-IM_Mvp: If our number system were base 11, Mvp would almost certainly made into the list. Though he's the WCS EU champion, he was just barely nudged out by HerO. In revenge for this snub, MVP will probably just go on to win the WCS season finals anyways.
Lol he almost did... I think he would have owned sOs just as hard as Innovation did.
LG-IM_Mvp: If our number system were base 11, Mvp would almost certainly made into the list. Though he's the WCS EU champion, he was just barely nudged out by HerO. In revenge for this snub, MVP will probably just go on to win the WCS season finals anyways.
Lol he almost did... I think he would have owned sOs just as hard as Innovation did.
owned? The score might have looked lopsided but sHy had plenty of opportunity to beat him him in three of those games. The list is pretty fair.
On June 09 2013 22:13 dirtydurb82 wrote: Innovation pulled off quite the massive choke... hard to leave him at one.
Only to win a more prestigious title a week later...
I doubt that many people consider a tournament with weaker players, less games and less time to prepare to be more prestigious.
The funny thing is, even if it's supposedly less difficult, it will end up being like wcg kr and wcg champ. Even though WCG KR was considered harder, most people remember WCG champs. WCS KR will be harder, but WCS Champ might be remembered more.
On June 09 2013 22:13 dirtydurb82 wrote: Innovation pulled off quite the massive choke... hard to leave him at one.
Only to win a more prestigious title a week later...
I doubt that many people consider a tournament with weaker players, less games and less time to prepare to be more prestigious.
The funny thing is, even if it's supposedly less difficult, it will end up being like wcg kr and wcg champ. Even though WCG KR was considered harder, most people remember WCG champs. WCS KR will be harder, but WCS Champ might be remembered more.
Players didn't really care very much about actually winning WCG KR, though. Getting top 3 to be able to represent Korea was always considered much more important.
The winner of immvp and innovation was going to win the tournament although sos had he been a little less nervous might have won a few more games I think he is a better player then we saw in the finals.
On June 09 2013 22:13 dirtydurb82 wrote: Innovation pulled off quite the massive choke... hard to leave him at one.
Only to win a more prestigious title a week later...
I doubt that many people consider a tournament with weaker players, less games and less time to prepare to be more prestigious.
The funny thing is, even if it's supposedly less difficult, it will end up being like wcg kr and wcg champ. Even though WCG KR was considered harder, most people remember WCG champs. WCS KR will be harder, but WCS Champ might be remembered more.
Players didn't really care very much about actually winning WCG KR, though. Getting top 3 to be able to represent Korea was always considered much more important.
Why do you think that? I didnt get that impression. For me there is no doubt at all that winning Kr code S is way more difficult and prestigious. (Inno should be #1 though of course)
On June 09 2013 22:13 dirtydurb82 wrote: Innovation pulled off quite the massive choke... hard to leave him at one.
Only to win a more prestigious title a week later...
I doubt that many people consider a tournament with weaker players, less games and less time to prepare to be more prestigious.
The funny thing is, even if it's supposedly less difficult, it will end up being like wcg kr and wcg champ. Even though WCG KR was considered harder, most people remember WCG champs. WCS KR will be harder, but WCS Champ might be remembered more.
Can't agree more.
Compare Creator's WCS win to Parting's WCS win last year. They are world's apart in recognition, fame, and earnings even though the WCS Korea was far more difficult. Some fans will give Creator more credit. Other fans will give Rain more credit. Parting gets all the glory though.
On June 09 2013 22:13 dirtydurb82 wrote: Innovation pulled off quite the massive choke... hard to leave him at one.
Only to win a more prestigious title a week later...
I doubt that many people consider a tournament with weaker players, less games and less time to prepare to be more prestigious.
The funny thing is, even if it's supposedly less difficult, it will end up being like wcg kr and wcg champ. Even though WCG KR was considered harder, most people remember WCG champs. WCS KR will be harder, but WCS Champ might be remembered more.
Can't agree more.
Compare Creator's WCS win to Parting's WCS win last year. They are world's apart in recognition, fame, and earnings even though the WCS Korea was far more difficult. Some fans will give Creator more credit. Other fans will give Rain more credit. Parting gets all the glory though.
wait why does rain get the credit? wcs asia is somewhere in between, not the big tournament like BWC or the hard tournament like WCS KR. he did do well in all three though
On June 10 2013 12:32 Toadily wrote: So BW pros occupy 7 out of the top 10.
Actually, Starcraft II pros occupy 10 out of the top 10
Actually, people who are playing BW professionally right now in a secret cave in Tibet are 7 of the 10 best SCII players in the world. The method by which they communicated their top-class skills to TL writers (except Zealously) is classified.
On June 10 2013 05:24 MountainGoat wrote: Picking Innovation first looks pretty good after WCS is over now.
Until I see a rematch between him and Soulkey, I will still disagree with it.
Would you say that Jjakji was a better player than Leenock at the very end of 2011?
Leenock played one of the best TvZ series of all time against Mvp in the semis, or should I say against an in-form, top-shape Mvp, and then another against Jjakji. He lost, but then again he obliterated MLG Providence, beating a lot of good players including MMA, Mvp and DongRaeGu (who were basically the Top 3 of XvZ at the time). Sure, Jjakji won that GSL, but would you really say he was better than Leenock?
Sometimes it's a good idea to look at the bigger picture. ^^ This case is somewhat applicable, Yeah, Soulkey might have won (hopefully he won't become a fluke) but I wouldn't even consider rating him above Bogus right now. Hell, I don't know that I'd rate anyone over Bogus right now.
Mmm, MLG Providence was before the GSL Final. It's part of why Leenock was so hugely favored to beat jjakji.
And there were some people who considered jjakji to be one of the best Terrans after that finals, having pretty solid TvP and having just revealed his explosive TvZ. Maybe not better than Leenock, though, and at the end of 2011 all eyes were definitely on Mvp and MMA.
On June 11 2013 02:26 slowbacontron wrote: Mmm, MLG Providence was before the GSL Final. It's part of why Leenock was so hugely favored to beat jjakji.
Welp, that edit makes half my post useless
Yeah my bad, I didn't remember exactly so I went to Liquipedia. Needless to say, this + Show Spoiler +
On June 11 2013 02:26 slowbacontron wrote: Mmm, MLG Providence was before the GSL Final. It's part of why Leenock was so hugely favored to beat jjakji.
Welp, that edit makes half my post useless
Yeah my bad, I didn't remember exactly so I went to Liquipedia. Needless to say, this + Show Spoiler +
proved to be wrong when I looked up some games.
I think these rectangles are sorted by starting date more than by ending date and their length is no indicative of anything in particular.
Anyway, the point remains. Even though Soulkey won GSL and even though he might be the best Zerg player in the world right now, I still wouldn't rate him over Bogus simply because Bogus has been performing at this level for a longer period of time and he's also displayed more prowess in his games (imo).
Sure, and I think most people would agree with you. But as the Korean casters showed, there ARE rational, knowledgable people who thought SK would be able to beat Innovation in the GSL finals, and if there is belief that a player is beatable in some way, it is quite reasonable that said player's position as best in the world will be contested.
Everyone seems to have forgotten about Life just because he dropped out of the group of death. The guy has better vT than Innovation vZ according to Ailigulac, and he still holds spot no.2 with basically no games played after he dropped of that group - one month ago. He was winning everything he stepped his foot on, he loses one day, then suddenly, doesn't even make it to the Power Rank. It seems like people just go with the player of the moment.
If there's anyone that could win vs Innovation would be him.
On June 10 2013 12:32 Toadily wrote: So BW pros occupy 7 out of the top 10.
Actually, Starcraft II pros occupy 10 out of the top 10
Actually, people who are playing BW professionally right now in a secret cave in Tibet are 7 of the 10 best SCII players in the world. The method by which they communicated their top-class skills to TL writers (except Zealously) is classified.
I wonder if we should write another article about the elephant in the room with regards to the SSL not having the rest of KeSPA players playing anymore and thus being a farce! Sea/HiyA winning a SSL? NO WAI! lol
On June 11 2013 03:08 Apolo wrote: Everyone seems to have forgotten about Life just because he dropped out of the group of death. The guy has better vT than Innovation vZ according to Ailigulac, and he still holds spot no.2 with basically no games played after he dropped of that group - one month ago. He was winning everything he stepped his foot on, he loses one day, then suddenly, doesn't even make it to the Power Rank. It seems like people just go with the player of the moment.
If there's anyone that could win vs Innovation would be him.
How about Leenock? Durrrrr. This is what makes PL so great. You get to see these guys constantly fight one another and the GSTL only started round robin play, but it's like only one round of PL in a way. Besides that Life did lose to the guy you called out.
On June 11 2013 03:08 Apolo wrote: Everyone seems to have forgotten about Life just because he dropped out of the group of death. The guy has better vT than Innovation vZ according to Ailigulac, and he still holds spot no.2 with basically no games played after he dropped of that group - one month ago. He was winning everything he stepped his foot on, he loses one day, then suddenly, doesn't even make it to the Power Rank. It seems like people just go with the player of the moment.
If there's anyone that could win vs Innovation would be him.
Nobody has forgotten about Life. The answer is something you outlined yourself, Life has only played two series since, in GSTL and Code A respectively. I'm sure there will be much more discussion about him once he actually plays more high profile matches. ^^
On June 10 2013 02:02 Hypemeup wrote: Putting HerO ahead of MVP.
Dat TL bias
There is absolutely no bias. HerO had shown much much MUCH better results in hots compared to Mvp.
Winning an even easier WCS than WCS Europe?
So you have more talent in the Europeans, but didn't WCS AM have more Koreans than Europe? Probably because the Koreans thought the US would be easier, better ping, closer flight, etc. I don't know man. Apples to oranges in a way.
On June 11 2013 03:08 Apolo wrote: Everyone seems to have forgotten about Life just because he dropped out of the group of death. The guy has better vT than Innovation vZ according to Ailigulac, and he still holds spot no.2 with basically no games played after he dropped of that group - one month ago. He was winning everything he stepped his foot on, he loses one day, then suddenly, doesn't even make it to the Power Rank. It seems like people just go with the player of the moment.
If there's anyone that could win vs Innovation would be him.
Nobody has forgotten about Life. The answer is something you outlined yourself, Life has only played two series since, in GSTL and Code A respectively. I'm sure there will be much more discussion about him once he actually plays more high profile matches. ^^
That's always been problematic. They need more games!
Hmm, I always hear that in BW games (or at least tournaments) were much less frequent than in SC2, wouldn't this problem have been even worse for y'all back then? Did the nearly constant Proleague games help with that?
Or maybe Power Ranks themselves were less frequent, or maybe BW was less volatile (which I wouldn't know if that's true personally).
On June 11 2013 03:31 slowbacontron wrote: Hmm, I always hear that in BW games (or at least tournaments) were much less frequent than in SC2, wouldn't this problem have been even worse for y'all back then? Did the nearly constant Proleague games help with that?
Or maybe Power Ranks themselves were less frequent, or maybe BW was less volatile (which I wouldn't know if that's true personally).
Well, it doesn't matter much if games are less frequent if it's the same for everyone. With SC2, it's not - half the good players play regularly in PL, half the good players don't; this creates a problem when it comes to assessing skill levels.
On June 11 2013 03:31 slowbacontron wrote: Hmm, I always hear that in BW games (or at least tournaments) were much less frequent than in SC2, wouldn't this problem have been even worse for y'all back then? Did the nearly constant Proleague games help with that?
Or maybe Power Ranks themselves were less frequent, or maybe BW was less volatile (which I wouldn't know if that's true personally).
Well, it doesn't matter much if games are less frequent if it's the same for everyone. With SC2, it's not - half the good players play regularly in PL, half the good players don't; this creates a problem when it comes to assessing skill levels.
On June 11 2013 03:31 slowbacontron wrote: Hmm, I always hear that in BW games (or at least tournaments) were much less frequent than in SC2, wouldn't this problem have been even worse for y'all back then? Did the nearly constant Proleague games help with that?
Or maybe Power Ranks themselves were less frequent, or maybe BW was less volatile (which I wouldn't know if that's true personally).
Well, it doesn't matter much if games are less frequent if it's the same for everyone. With SC2, it's not - half the good players play regularly in PL, half the good players don't; this creates a problem when it comes to assessing skill levels.
Yeah, initially it looked like proleague players were kind of isolated with kespa restricting their travelling, but then the amount of tournaments crumbled and nobody can travel much, especially on a tight budget.
Flash being rank 3 just seems completely out of place. He has less results then basically everyone else on the list. Including losses to Parting in both the GSL and proleague. I feel like parting should be a little higher as well.
On June 11 2013 03:31 slowbacontron wrote: Hmm, I always hear that in BW games (or at least tournaments) were much less frequent than in SC2, wouldn't this problem have been even worse for y'all back then? Did the nearly constant Proleague games help with that?
Or maybe Power Ranks themselves were less frequent, or maybe BW was less volatile (which I wouldn't know if that's true personally).
It was only really an issue during the brief time in September when there were very few games and late in Brood War when there was one OSL a year and no more MSL. Otherwise, there was always plenty of Proleague, as well as OSL and MSL three times a year each, plus the Gom Classic when it was still running and WCG once a year.
Yeh BW power rank was a bit more subjective and "well I extrapolate such and such" from the content of the games and not just the results, due to the lesser amount of games in general.
Not that content of games doesn't factor in here - for instance the sheer weirdness of sOs' play in his GSL series prevented him from achieving a higher rank.
On June 11 2013 16:23 Waxangel wrote: Yeh BW power rank was a bit more subjective and "well I extrapolate such and such" from the content of the games and not just the results, due to the lesser amount of games in general.
Not that content of games doesn't factor in here - for instance the sheer weirdness of sOs' play in his GSL series prevented him from achieving a higher rank.
I would argue otherwise. The BW scene (at least before its switch) was cemented and all top players were clearly identified (last 2 OSL finals were identical) and there was little opportunities for lesser known players to burst into the top. Thus the rankings were less subjective because they involved ranking the player in between themselves.
On June 10 2013 05:24 MountainGoat wrote: Picking Innovation first looks pretty good after WCS is over now.
Until I see a rematch between him and Soulkey, I will still disagree with it.
Would you say that Jjakji was a better player than Leenock at the very end of 2011?
Completely different players and completely different situation.
Both Innovation and Soulkey have been doing well, with Soulkey posting similar results. Also, Soulkey has shown more mental toughness than Innovation. Besides, the fact that Innovation has such a disastrous GSL finals and was two heartbeats from losing to Mvp means he's got some definite weaknesses and thus the top spot could really go anywhere. Life still has a strong claim to it, Flash has a claim to it, Soulkey has a strong claim to it, Innovation has a strong claim to it. We'll have to wait and see.
On June 09 2013 22:13 dirtydurb82 wrote: Innovation pulled off quite the massive choke... hard to leave him at one.
Only to win a more prestigious title a week later...
I doubt that many people consider a tournament with weaker players, less games and less time to prepare to be more prestigious.
The funny thing is, even if it's supposedly less difficult, it will end up being like wcg kr and wcg champ. Even though WCG KR was considered harder, most people remember WCG champs. WCS KR will be harder, but WCS Champ might be remembered more.
Can't agree more.
Compare Creator's WCS win to Parting's WCS win last year. They are world's apart in recognition, fame, and earnings even though the WCS Korea was far more difficult. Some fans will give Creator more credit. Other fans will give Rain more credit. Parting gets all the glory though.
GSL/OSL will always have the most prestige, and WCS KR = GSL/OSL.
On June 11 2013 16:23 Waxangel wrote: Yeh BW power rank was a bit more subjective and "well I extrapolate such and such" from the content of the games and not just the results, due to the lesser amount of games in general.
Not that content of games doesn't factor in here - for instance the sheer weirdness of sOs' play in his GSL series prevented him from achieving a higher rank.
I would argue otherwise. The BW scene (at least before its switch) was cemented and all top players were clearly identified (last 2 OSL finals were identical) and there was little opportunities for lesser known players to burst into the top. Thus the rankings were less subjective because they involved ranking the player in between themselves.
Not really true at all. On the penultimate power rank we had Turn, a rookie, in 7th place. Of course by the end of Brood War there were far less new players so this was less frequent, but lesser known players had every opportunity to break in if they were good enough.
1. Soulkey 2. Flash 3. Innovation 4. Rain 5. MVP 6. Life 7. Roro 8. Parting 9. SoS 10. Kangho
I think Innovation is overrated - he is a top player, but not godlike. Top6 is really really close in terms of skills, it's really hard to tell who is the best. For me there is a big diffrence in skill between top6 & the rest of players.
On June 12 2013 19:11 imprecis wrote: Based only on quality of play :
1. Soulkey 2. Flash 3. Innovation 4. Rain 5. MVP 6. Life 7. Roro 8. Parting 9. SoS 10. Kangho
I think Innovation is overrated - he is a top player, but not godlike. Top6 is really really close in terms of skills, it's really hard to tell who is the best. For me there is a big diffrence in skill between top6 & the rest of players.
To me Soulkey is a tad bit overrated. His mechanics don't seem to be any better than say a Leenock. I think timing has been good to him, we have to remember MVPSniper is a GSL Champ too, and he got a bit lucky. I would definitely say Bogus is number 1 in terms of sheer consistency. I think the only other Terran that I felt was this consistent was Taeja (that 3-4months period where he was buttseckings the SC2 scene). I think Life is REALLY overrated considering the number of games he drops to people he should not. Kangho would probably fall off soon, MVP will always be "that guy who we count out and we collectively facepalm/cheer when he wins", Rain I think will rise to a solid 2-3 after the conclusion of WCS OSL (Rain gonna win this shit or come 2nd). Roro will probably fade away from the top 10 (not looking really solid). PartinG will maintain his 8-9 spot for a while. The two enigmas in the power ranking is sOs and Flash. I am really torn on sOs, he's either the next brain toss or he's incredibly lucky and Flash seems solid and mechanical but he seems really vulnerable to cheese and TvP.
On June 05 2013 09:16 Scville wrote: Why Hero > Kangho and MVP?
Kangho almost won vs SoS and he 3-0'ed Bomber
I know, Hero is from teamliquid but come on lol, no way he is the 10th best player in the world.
''Life's only results this month were losing to NAKSEO in the GSTL and 2 - 0ing MarineKing in GSL. (But at this point, is 2 - 0ing MarineKing in ZvT really an accomplishment?)''
Of course, Life didn't play anything else.
Yeah, no doubt. I wonder how "LIQUID"hero got top 10 over better players?? LOL
Just felt I had to mention this: and I don't know if someone's mentioned it before: I agree with the standings here, but next time you write up the #2 player, don't dedicate the whole thing to a protracted excuse for why you didn't rank him in first place. Soulkey's write-up sounds like an honourable mention. Just tell us why he got all the way up to the 2nd spot and why he's awesome, not why he didn't make #1.
People are overrating Mvp for basically beating Losira, a guy who beat no one of note to get into the top 8. gumiho soo true bomber? Meh. Mvp literally did nothing before WCS EU except losing to Scarlett in GSTL. He had a good run, but come on, to put him into top 6 already? At least he plays in EU so I guess he'll be a monthly top 10 player.
On June 11 2013 07:36 ATiBright wrote: Flash being rank 3 just seems completely out of place. He has less results then basically everyone else on the list. Including losses to Parting in both the GSL and proleague. I feel like parting should be a little higher as well.
Okay? Flash just went 15-2 in rd 5 of proleague. That's better results than basically everyone barring Innovation SK who won tournaments. His only bad result was losing in the group of death.
On June 14 2013 20:48 Kyaaaaa wrote: People are overrating Mvp for basically beating Losira, a guy who beat no one of note to get into the top 8. gumiho soo true bomber? Meh. Mvp literally did nothing before WCS EU except losing to Scarlett in GSTL. He had a good run, but come on, to put him into top 6 already? At least he plays in EU so I guess he'll be a monthly top 10 player.
On June 11 2013 07:36 ATiBright wrote: Flash being rank 3 just seems completely out of place. He has less results then basically everyone else on the list. Including losses to Parting in both the GSL and proleague. I feel like parting should be a little higher as well.
Okay? Flash just went 15-2 in rd 5 of proleague. That's better results than basically everyone barring Innovation SK who won tournaments. His only bad result was losing in the group of death.
You somehow forgot the insanely close match Mvp played against Innovation. Selective memory much? Also, ,literally did nothing. You know who Mvp is right?
On June 14 2013 20:48 Kyaaaaa wrote: People are overrating Mvp for basically beating Losira, a guy who beat no one of note to get into the top 8. gumiho soo true bomber? Meh. Mvp literally did nothing before WCS EU except losing to Scarlett in GSTL. He had a good run, but come on, to put him into top 6 already? At least he plays in EU so I guess he'll be a monthly top 10 player.
On June 11 2013 07:36 ATiBright wrote: Flash being rank 3 just seems completely out of place. He has less results then basically everyone else on the list. Including losses to Parting in both the GSL and proleague. I feel like parting should be a little higher as well.
Okay? Flash just went 15-2 in rd 5 of proleague. That's better results than basically everyone barring Innovation SK who won tournaments. His only bad result was losing in the group of death.
You somehow forgot the insanely close match Mvp played against Innovation. Selective memory much? Also, ,literally did nothing. You know who Mvp is right?
Yeah, I agree Mvp needs to be higher, and Losira lower. Losira's WCS run seems more and more like a fluke to me. His play was really flat at the season finals, and he lost to NSH.
On June 14 2013 20:48 Kyaaaaa wrote: People are overrating Mvp for basically beating Losira, a guy who beat no one of note to get into the top 8. gumiho soo true bomber? Meh. Mvp literally did nothing before WCS EU except losing to Scarlett in GSTL. He had a good run, but come on, to put him into top 6 already? At least he plays in EU so I guess he'll be a monthly top 10 player.
On June 11 2013 07:36 ATiBright wrote: Flash being rank 3 just seems completely out of place. He has less results then basically everyone else on the list. Including losses to Parting in both the GSL and proleague. I feel like parting should be a little higher as well.
Okay? Flash just went 15-2 in rd 5 of proleague. That's better results than basically everyone barring Innovation SK who won tournaments. His only bad result was losing in the group of death.
You somehow forgot the insanely close match Mvp played against Innovation. Selective memory much? Also, ,literally did nothing. You know who Mvp is right?
Yeah, I agree Mvp needs to be higher, and Losira lower. Losira's WCS run seems more and more like a fluke to me. His play was really flat at the season finals, and he lost to NSH.
So glad power rank is back. Having in mind when it was written, I would still make a difference placement for Symbol. He never had to meet protoss in WCS, and he is utterly bad in this matchup. Having one matchup in such a state is not worthy of 5th place, imo. He had amazing luck of not meeting any protoss until WCS finals where he was dismantled pretty hard.
Sorry but these power rankings are just some opinion. Flash #3? Too much dick riding. No way in hell is he that good in sc2 yet.(results results results).
On June 14 2013 03:23 SeinGalton wrote: Just felt I had to mention this: and I don't know if someone's mentioned it before: I agree with the standings here, but next time you write up the #2 player, don't dedicate the whole thing to a protracted excuse for why you didn't rank him in first place. Soulkey's write-up sounds like an honourable mention. Just tell us why he got all the way up to the 2nd spot and why he's awesome, not why he didn't make #1.
If Innovation held Game 4 of the GSL finals no one would even be talking about Soulkey right now.
That's why he didn't get #1.
He also barely made the finals in the first place. The only reason he is even #2 is because he beat Innovation in a TvZ, there is no other reason.
On June 24 2013 01:25 skorched wrote: Sorry but these power rankings are just some opinion. Flash #3? Too much dick riding. No way in hell is he that good in sc2 yet.(results results results).
Doesnt flash have one of the top records in proleague so far? If he does what good reason is there for him to be lower if he is a top player against the best competition right now? He looks pretty strong to me.
On June 24 2013 01:25 skorched wrote: Sorry but these power rankings are just some opinion. Flash #3? Too much dick riding. No way in hell is he that good in sc2 yet.(results results results).
watch his play man, not b/c he dropped of GSL in a group of death means he is not that good in SC2. He's insanely good in SPL and very very consistent. No doubt Innovation is #1, he choked in the final but no one is close to his sheer mechanic and skill atm.
On June 24 2013 01:25 skorched wrote: Sorry but these power rankings are just some opinion. Flash #3? Too much dick riding. No way in hell is he that good in sc2 yet.(results results results).
Not that good in SC2 yet? He went 15-2 in the latest round of PL.
On June 24 2013 01:25 skorched wrote: Sorry but these power rankings are just some opinion. Flash #3? Too much dick riding. No way in hell is he that good in sc2 yet.(results results results).
Not that good in SC2 yet? He went 15-2 in the latest round of PL.
Flash will likely retain #3. Infact I think the top 3 will remain unchanged. Unless Life destroys MLG he won't make top ten. sOs probably around 5-6, freakin Bo1 man. Symbol likely around 6. RorO hangs on to 7-8. But it all depends on how the rest of the OSL groups go, if Rain advances, as he should, he should still be 4-5. Parting advancing means he'll move up due to everyone else faltering. Mvp is in top ten for sure.
On June 06 2013 06:45 Dodgin wrote: I read your post, he shouldn't be in the " close but no cigar " category because he's not close. his record is bad, his games look bad. I'd love to see him look good but he doesn't look good.
ah ok, so your one of those dudes(95% of tlers) who just waits for someone to win a gsl or go on a huge winstreak before calling them good. takes alot of knowledge to do that
no, I've watched all his games and I think he plays poorly. especially his macro, It's just awful.
there's a reason you're the only one in the entire thread lobbying for a spot for him on the list.
wat did i tell u about fantasy bro.. 10-3 in his last 13 games tt
On June 26 2013 19:59 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: thus far:
Life and RorO are out for sure.
sOs maybe out too.
Symbol right around where he should be.
Bogus still #1
sOs wont be out. He made the season 1 finals after this power ranking was released and still is positive in proleague since then even though he faltered in OSL
On June 06 2013 06:45 Dodgin wrote: I read your post, he shouldn't be in the " close but no cigar " category because he's not close. his record is bad, his games look bad. I'd love to see him look good but he doesn't look good.
ah ok, so your one of those dudes(95% of tlers) who just waits for someone to win a gsl or go on a huge winstreak before calling them good. takes alot of knowledge to do that
no, I've watched all his games and I think he plays poorly. especially his macro, It's just awful.
there's a reason you're the only one in the entire thread lobbying for a spot for him on the list.
wat did i tell u about fantasy bro.. 10-3 in his last 13 games tt
To be fair, Fantasy did step it up a LOT only very recently.
On June 06 2013 06:45 Dodgin wrote: I read your post, he shouldn't be in the " close but no cigar " category because he's not close. his record is bad, his games look bad. I'd love to see him look good but he doesn't look good.
ah ok, so your one of those dudes(95% of tlers) who just waits for someone to win a gsl or go on a huge winstreak before calling them good. takes alot of knowledge to do that
no, I've watched all his games and I think he plays poorly. especially his macro, It's just awful.
there's a reason you're the only one in the entire thread lobbying for a spot for him on the list.
wat did i tell u about fantasy bro.. 10-3 in his last 13 games tt
To be fair, Fantasy did step it up a LOT only very recently.
and i quote "ah ok, so your one of those dudes(95% of tlers) who just waits for someone to win a gsl or go on a huge winstreak before calling them good. takes alot of knowledge to do that"
.. its easy to call someone good once he starts winning
On June 06 2013 06:45 Dodgin wrote: I read your post, he shouldn't be in the " close but no cigar " category because he's not close. his record is bad, his games look bad. I'd love to see him look good but he doesn't look good.
ah ok, so your one of those dudes(95% of tlers) who just waits for someone to win a gsl or go on a huge winstreak before calling them good. takes alot of knowledge to do that
no, I've watched all his games and I think he plays poorly. especially his macro, It's just awful.
there's a reason you're the only one in the entire thread lobbying for a spot for him on the list.
wat did i tell u about fantasy bro.. 10-3 in his last 13 games tt
To be fair, Fantasy did step it up a LOT only very recently.
and i quote "ah ok, so your one of those dudes(95% of tlers) who just waits for someone to win a gsl or go on a huge winstreak before calling them good. takes alot of knowledge to do that"
.. its easy to call someone good once he starts winning
Yeah but I don't think he means just that, neither do I. The way he's been playing more recently is a lot more impressive than before. It just seems a lot smoother, he's macroing better, his decisionmaking is sharper. The wins are just a result of that I feel. Like, a few weeks ago he would not have played that well vs Life. He'd have gotten supply blocked multiple times, floated tons of money, etc. as he did before.
On June 06 2013 06:45 Dodgin wrote: I read your post, he shouldn't be in the " close but no cigar " category because he's not close. his record is bad, his games look bad. I'd love to see him look good but he doesn't look good.
ah ok, so your one of those dudes(95% of tlers) who just waits for someone to win a gsl or go on a huge winstreak before calling them good. takes alot of knowledge to do that
no, I've watched all his games and I think he plays poorly. especially his macro, It's just awful.
there's a reason you're the only one in the entire thread lobbying for a spot for him on the list.
wat did i tell u about fantasy bro.. 10-3 in his last 13 games tt
To be fair, Fantasy did step it up a LOT only very recently.
and i quote "ah ok, so your one of those dudes(95% of tlers) who just waits for someone to win a gsl or go on a huge winstreak before calling them good. takes alot of knowledge to do that"
.. its easy to call someone good once he starts winning
Yeah but I don't think he means just that, neither do I. The way he's been playing more recently is a lot more impressive than before. It just seems a lot smoother, he's macroing better, his decisionmaking is sharper. The wins are just a result of that I feel. Like, a few weeks ago he would not have played that well vs Life. He'd have gotten supply blocked multiple times, floated tons of money, etc. as he did before.
It's funny cause that's exactly what he did against Life. Yet he still managed to win.
On June 06 2013 06:45 Dodgin wrote: I read your post, he shouldn't be in the " close but no cigar " category because he's not close. his record is bad, his games look bad. I'd love to see him look good but he doesn't look good.
ah ok, so your one of those dudes(95% of tlers) who just waits for someone to win a gsl or go on a huge winstreak before calling them good. takes alot of knowledge to do that
no, I've watched all his games and I think he plays poorly. especially his macro, It's just awful.
there's a reason you're the only one in the entire thread lobbying for a spot for him on the list.
wat did i tell u about fantasy bro.. 10-3 in his last 13 games tt
To be fair, Fantasy did step it up a LOT only very recently.
and i quote "ah ok, so your one of those dudes(95% of tlers) who just waits for someone to win a gsl or go on a huge winstreak before calling them good. takes alot of knowledge to do that"
.. its easy to call someone good once he starts winning
Yeah but I don't think he means just that, neither do I. The way he's been playing more recently is a lot more impressive than before. It just seems a lot smoother, he's macroing better, his decisionmaking is sharper. The wins are just a result of that I feel. Like, a few weeks ago he would not have played that well vs Life. He'd have gotten supply blocked multiple times, floated tons of money, etc. as he did before.
It's funny cause that's exactly what he did against Life. Yet he still managed to win.
He did but... better. He had good control to make up for it and his macro wasn't all that horrible. I mean, a player of his calibre is bound to be a fucking beast when he starts to operate smoothly.
If only Innovation were a more interesting player (as a persona/character), but as is he's very bland. His skill is undoubtedly very impressive, yet that in my opinion is almost wasted if the person behind it is as boring as a sack of sand.
On June 27 2013 06:12 Elucidate wrote: If only Innovation were a more interesting player (as a persona/character), but as is he's very bland. His skill is undoubtedly very impressive, yet that in my opinion is almost wasted if the person behind it is as boring as a sack of sand.
I don't think it's wasted at all, people should still be fully capable of admiring the skill he displays at StarCraft. Expecting him to be entertaining outside of the game is unfair considering his job is to play (and win, which requires practices not partying) Starcraft games.
On June 27 2013 06:12 Elucidate wrote: If only Innovation were a more interesting player (as a persona/character), but as is he's very bland. His skill is undoubtedly very impressive, yet that in my opinion is almost wasted if the person behind it is as boring as a sack of sand.
Let's be fair, one interview doesn't really show all of your personality..
On June 27 2013 06:12 Elucidate wrote: If only Innovation were a more interesting player (as a persona/character), but as is he's very bland. His skill is undoubtedly very impressive, yet that in my opinion is almost wasted if the person behind it is as boring as a sack of sand.
Let's be fair, one interview doesn't really show all of your personality..
No but personality doesn't wait for an invitation before showing up the party either.
Granted I think a sack of sand is significantly less interesting than innovation but he's no FBH. And I'm okay with that.
EPT
8th_TY: Another proleague monster, Ty is the face of hellbat play in proleague.
KT_Zest: A proleague hero without any other notable results. 5-2 in round 4, 9-4 in round 5. Unfortunately, it's mostly off the back of his PvP in the very Protoss dominated PvProleague. In other match-ups, he's not nearly as impressive.
LG-IM_KangHo: The only player who qualified to the WCS season finals from Korea who isn't in our ranking. Too bad he had a relatively easy path to the quarterfinals of GSL, a poor performance against sOs in those quarterfinals, and a poor GSTL record.![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/222.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2322.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1101.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/662.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/697.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/424.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/663.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mJap40O.png)
his play always has me on my toes~
2012-2013 Proleague/Statistics
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