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I think there are some things getting mixed up in this thread. We can see some true balance complaints like:
"ZvT is almost unwinnable and all the Zergs will disappear from the tourneys, ladder etc". Tournament results and the long list of the zerg players that seem to be doing fine within the current metagame say otherwise.
And than there is another set of complaints that can be summed up with a statement: "I don't like the current meta/gameplay". This is understandable - for example a coinflip is pretty balanced, but it is not a lot of fun to watch (unless it's at Dreamhack).
Let's say little Johnny doesn't like MMM-based TvP and thinks that the right way to play versus Protoss is a 4-port banshee. Pretty soon you would see Johnny posting on TL with the idea of increasing the range, damage and hp on the banshee by 50% to make his goto strategy viable.
This is exactly what the zergies do: my (WoL) strat is not working, other strats(bust) are stupid: blizzard go nerf hellbat, speedvacs and widow mines!
For me saying things like "well, the game has been out for two months, I've played 100 games on the ladder and nothing's gonna change, blizzard fix this!" seems a bit hasty. And the idea of sacrificing balance in favor of a better gameplay is flawed.
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On May 12 2013 16:51 scypio wrote:
I think there are some things getting mixed up in this thread. We can see some true balance complaints like:
"ZvT is almost unwinnable and all the Zergs will disappear from the tourneys, ladder etc". Tournament results and the long list of the zerg players that seem to be doing fine within the current metagame say otherwise.
And than there is another set of complaints that can be summed up with a statement: "I don't like the current meta/gameplay". This is understandable - for example a coinflip is pretty balanced, but it is not a lot of fun to watch (unless it's at Dreamhack).
Let's say little Johnny doesn't like MMM-based TvP and thinks that the right way to play versus Protoss is a 4-port banshee. Pretty soon you would see Johnny posting on TL with the idea of increasing the range, damage and hp on the banshee by 50% to make his goto strategy viable.
This is exactly what the zergies do: my (WoL) strat is not working, other strats(bust) are stupid: blizzard go nerf hellbat, speedvacs and widow mines!
For me saying things like "well, the game has been out for two months, I've played 100 games on the ladder and nothing's gonna change, blizzard fix this!" seems a bit hasty. And the idea of sacrificing balance in favor of a better gameplay is flawed.
except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games.
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On May 12 2013 12:50 vRadiatioNv wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 08:50 aksfjh wrote:On May 12 2013 08:11 Big J wrote:On May 12 2013 03:41 Zarahtra wrote:On May 12 2013 03:21 Rabiator wrote:On May 12 2013 03:16 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 19:49 Godwrath wrote:On May 11 2013 18:06 Chocobo wrote:
Yep. Kinda like how mines are cost efficient vs everything zerg has in the first 15-20 minutes of the game. Erhm, no. Other than broodlords, what is cost efficient against mines for zerg? 1. Spore and Spine Crawlers for the early game ... (They are even good against Hellbat drops since neither of these dies easily to the "vs light" damage and the Medivac dies faster ... which prevents its reuse. Spore Crawlers are great against Phoenix and Oracle too ....) 2. Sending in Overlords to soak up the shots right before your charge ... Just watch a few TvZ games with early harrassment and IMO it is always the "diehard oldschoolers" who try to defend against Hellbat harrassment with Zerglings who are losing the match while the ones who build static defenses seem to be fine. That might be a misperception on my part, but I would suggest you check for yourself. The whole point of HotS seems to be "more harrassment" ... Hellbat, Oracle, Mutalisk regen, Medivac speed, Widow Mine, ... so preparing for that is a requirement and not optional now IMO. Also 2x +3 attack upgrade blings kill a mine(that is less than +3 armor upgrade) which I'd argue isn't that cost inefficient for a zerg(100/50 vs 75/25). It is really obnoxious when a zerg sends 2x blings ontop of a widow mine and blows it up, but terrans quite often in a hurry burry 2x next to each other, so atleast those times it is cost effective. I see it as a great way for a zerg to keep the amount of widow mines on the field in control, rather than letting it spiral. So, just to be clear: I don't think there is any imbalance in the matchup overall, but I do believe that ling/bling/muta (even if you manage to upgrade 3-3+cracklings, 3-0 AND even with small infestor support) can't fight against marine/medivac/mine (or hellbat/tank/marauder variations) and you have to go ultras/broodlords to win after the early 3base Terran phase. That being said, it's not good to trade banes vs mines like that. The equation goes basically like this: 1) marines > lings, mutas, roaches, hydras, queens, swarm hosts 2) marines < banelings, ultralisks, huge infestor count, huge broodlord count Basically, all you want to do as a Terran in those engagements is kill as many banelings efficiently or in equal trades as you can before they touch marines. The rest is just a mob up. On May 12 2013 04:51 plogamer wrote:On May 12 2013 04:48 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 12 2013 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
Be very careful about changing TvZ even if you conclude it is imbalanced. Right now at the highest level, it's the most engaging and exciting matchup to watch. The entire matchup frequently turns into a super long push from terran trying to break zerg while zerg tries to throw the push back one time, with both players micro'ing their faces off to try to be efficient. It's incredibly interesting to watch how they try to out control one another with constant battles and counter attacks. The wrong buff to zerg or nerf to terran could ruin that kind of push and send us back to both players maxxing out before doing anything.
TBH, I think the main problem is that zergs let terrans be too greedy and don't punish it. I kind of agree if they opened with Hellions/Reapers etc. however, you can't always punish it, and it is a lot harder if they opened with 1-2 Siege Tanks(which some of them are doing, mind you) or Mines. It also depends on the map a lot. Or Idra's super greedy opener versus Polt could also be the correct response when scouting 3 cc opener. /edit When it comes to greed, I don't think any race can top the Zerg race. I disagree. When zerg is greedy, zerg gets more mining earlier but no tech at all. When Terran is greedy, they still get their full tech tree much earlier and still have the same amount of CCs, but terran only needs to defend a single entrance (compared to two for outdoor basing zerg). Both races have their ups and downs when playing greedy. I agree with Whitewing on that matter. People should roach rush the fuck out of Terrans. Soulkey, Roro, Symbol and Kangho all have been roach rushing, baneling busting and nydusing their way into Ro8 against Terrans this GSL. Shine made it far similarily (those games against Fantasy...). Life, BBong, DRG, Hyun tried to play macrogames and got destroyed. The macro-metagame right now is very simple. Terrans build 3CCs, double ebays, a few hellions/reapers and go into mass reactored barracks+stim/shields and reactored widow mines/medivacs. Before 9-10mins, a Terran won't have any defences down apart from the hellions and a handful of widow mines/marines. On the flip side, a zerg invests into multiple queens, speed, speedlings, sometimes roaches/defenses relatively early without there even being any actual thread apart from those few hellions/reapers and just falls behind. But if you just blindly allin with roaches, a Terran often won't even have the production to react to anything you do because that build can't really produce anything that does not come from a reactored factory, before 9-10mins. And if a Terran even goes more greedy (like instead of defensive mines, even drops mines/hellbats early with this or gets his upgrades even faster or even more barracks early on, or just 4hellions), it's just a freewin, even if you just put on some semiallinish roach aggression with a third behind it, or a really late roach allin that hits at 10+mins. The only thing I want to add to this is the fact that, while having access to the tech, Terran can't utilize it in quite the explosive nature that Zerg (and even Protoss) can, nor is it as central of a role in winning. The only upgrade/tech that plays a huge, instant role is stim, and maybe combat shields and a tank. Having a starport or being able to produce hellbats isn't going to change the game when the first unit rolls out, unlike finishing a spire or making that first colossus (with range). I agree with pretty much everything Big J said except I do feel that TvZ is just slightly in favor of Terran (as most stats show) and just needs a tiny, tiny adjustment.
Most stats don't show that. Only one sets of stats shown that, which was proven again and again to lack statistical significance (when you removed WCS qualifiers it was pretty much 50/50).
And at what level do you think TvZ favors Terran? Since even the most hardcore zerg supporters here have a very hard time defending that at pro level terran would be stronger, with half the Code S RO8 for example being zerg. And at every level above silver it is kinda weird that way more people play zerg than terran if zerg would be so much weaker.
But what kind of tiny ajustments do you want to boost zerg without allowing them to dominate pro levels and become even more popular on 'normal' levels? And not to nerf terran against toss would also be nice. Oh and take into account due to their production nature zerg always needs longer to adapt to new metagames so I would also consider it a pré if zerg don't dominate the next 6 months yet again.
@Decendos, terran has never been able to go for a pure macro game against any of the other races. So why should zerg be allowed to do it?
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On May 12 2013 17:03 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 12:50 vRadiatioNv wrote:On May 12 2013 08:50 aksfjh wrote:On May 12 2013 08:11 Big J wrote:On May 12 2013 03:41 Zarahtra wrote:On May 12 2013 03:21 Rabiator wrote:On May 12 2013 03:16 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 19:49 Godwrath wrote:On May 11 2013 18:06 Chocobo wrote:
Yep. Kinda like how mines are cost efficient vs everything zerg has in the first 15-20 minutes of the game. Erhm, no. Other than broodlords, what is cost efficient against mines for zerg? 1. Spore and Spine Crawlers for the early game ... (They are even good against Hellbat drops since neither of these dies easily to the "vs light" damage and the Medivac dies faster ... which prevents its reuse. Spore Crawlers are great against Phoenix and Oracle too ....) 2. Sending in Overlords to soak up the shots right before your charge ... Just watch a few TvZ games with early harrassment and IMO it is always the "diehard oldschoolers" who try to defend against Hellbat harrassment with Zerglings who are losing the match while the ones who build static defenses seem to be fine. That might be a misperception on my part, but I would suggest you check for yourself. The whole point of HotS seems to be "more harrassment" ... Hellbat, Oracle, Mutalisk regen, Medivac speed, Widow Mine, ... so preparing for that is a requirement and not optional now IMO. Also 2x +3 attack upgrade blings kill a mine(that is less than +3 armor upgrade) which I'd argue isn't that cost inefficient for a zerg(100/50 vs 75/25). It is really obnoxious when a zerg sends 2x blings ontop of a widow mine and blows it up, but terrans quite often in a hurry burry 2x next to each other, so atleast those times it is cost effective. I see it as a great way for a zerg to keep the amount of widow mines on the field in control, rather than letting it spiral. So, just to be clear: I don't think there is any imbalance in the matchup overall, but I do believe that ling/bling/muta (even if you manage to upgrade 3-3+cracklings, 3-0 AND even with small infestor support) can't fight against marine/medivac/mine (or hellbat/tank/marauder variations) and you have to go ultras/broodlords to win after the early 3base Terran phase. That being said, it's not good to trade banes vs mines like that. The equation goes basically like this: 1) marines > lings, mutas, roaches, hydras, queens, swarm hosts 2) marines < banelings, ultralisks, huge infestor count, huge broodlord count Basically, all you want to do as a Terran in those engagements is kill as many banelings efficiently or in equal trades as you can before they touch marines. The rest is just a mob up. On May 12 2013 04:51 plogamer wrote:On May 12 2013 04:48 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 12 2013 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
Be very careful about changing TvZ even if you conclude it is imbalanced. Right now at the highest level, it's the most engaging and exciting matchup to watch. The entire matchup frequently turns into a super long push from terran trying to break zerg while zerg tries to throw the push back one time, with both players micro'ing their faces off to try to be efficient. It's incredibly interesting to watch how they try to out control one another with constant battles and counter attacks. The wrong buff to zerg or nerf to terran could ruin that kind of push and send us back to both players maxxing out before doing anything.
TBH, I think the main problem is that zergs let terrans be too greedy and don't punish it. I kind of agree if they opened with Hellions/Reapers etc. however, you can't always punish it, and it is a lot harder if they opened with 1-2 Siege Tanks(which some of them are doing, mind you) or Mines. It also depends on the map a lot. Or Idra's super greedy opener versus Polt could also be the correct response when scouting 3 cc opener. /edit When it comes to greed, I don't think any race can top the Zerg race. I disagree. When zerg is greedy, zerg gets more mining earlier but no tech at all. When Terran is greedy, they still get their full tech tree much earlier and still have the same amount of CCs, but terran only needs to defend a single entrance (compared to two for outdoor basing zerg). Both races have their ups and downs when playing greedy. I agree with Whitewing on that matter. People should roach rush the fuck out of Terrans. Soulkey, Roro, Symbol and Kangho all have been roach rushing, baneling busting and nydusing their way into Ro8 against Terrans this GSL. Shine made it far similarily (those games against Fantasy...). Life, BBong, DRG, Hyun tried to play macrogames and got destroyed. The macro-metagame right now is very simple. Terrans build 3CCs, double ebays, a few hellions/reapers and go into mass reactored barracks+stim/shields and reactored widow mines/medivacs. Before 9-10mins, a Terran won't have any defences down apart from the hellions and a handful of widow mines/marines. On the flip side, a zerg invests into multiple queens, speed, speedlings, sometimes roaches/defenses relatively early without there even being any actual thread apart from those few hellions/reapers and just falls behind. But if you just blindly allin with roaches, a Terran often won't even have the production to react to anything you do because that build can't really produce anything that does not come from a reactored factory, before 9-10mins. And if a Terran even goes more greedy (like instead of defensive mines, even drops mines/hellbats early with this or gets his upgrades even faster or even more barracks early on, or just 4hellions), it's just a freewin, even if you just put on some semiallinish roach aggression with a third behind it, or a really late roach allin that hits at 10+mins. The only thing I want to add to this is the fact that, while having access to the tech, Terran can't utilize it in quite the explosive nature that Zerg (and even Protoss) can, nor is it as central of a role in winning. The only upgrade/tech that plays a huge, instant role is stim, and maybe combat shields and a tank. Having a starport or being able to produce hellbats isn't going to change the game when the first unit rolls out, unlike finishing a spire or making that first colossus (with range). I agree with pretty much everything Big J said except I do feel that TvZ is just slightly in favor of Terran (as most stats show) and just needs a tiny, tiny adjustment. Most stats don't show that. Only one sets of stats shown that, which was proven again and again to lack statistical significance (when you removed WCS qualifiers it was pretty much 50/50). And at what level do you think TvZ favors Terran? Since even the most hardcore zerg supporters here have a very hard time defending that at pro level terran would be stronger, with half the Code S RO8 for example being zerg. And at every level above silver it is kinda weird that way more people play zerg than terran if zerg would be so much weaker. But what kind of tiny ajustments do you want to boost zerg without allowing them to dominate pro levels and become even more popular on 'normal' levels? And not to nerf terran against toss would also be nice. Oh and take into account due to their production nature zerg always needs longer to adapt to new metagames so I would also consider it a pré if zerg don't dominate the next 6 months yet again. @Decendos, terran has never been able to go for a pure macro game against any of the other races. So why should zerg be allowed to do it?
macro game isnt drone to 75. np if Z has a good pressure build and macros behind it like T is able to. excep Z hasnt. ever tried building 4 roaches and pressure? it doesnt work. you have to go completely all in to do any damage and build 10 roaches for example. Z has no early to early midgame harrass units like T has. thats why i am so sad about no burrow change which could fix that.
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I have always complained since the beta that the early game for zerg feels exactly the same for the last few years of WoL. Defend and drone drone drone.
The only aggression comes around lair and hive tech, the problem is that in ZvT, the lair units are still used to defend drops, you can't pull your muta too far or you will get punished by drops.
and hive units are basically late game already, how can a zerg be fun to play if they can almost never put any aggression back onto the opponent?
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On May 12 2013 17:03 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 16:51 scypio wrote:
I think there are some things getting mixed up in this thread. We can see some true balance complaints like:
"ZvT is almost unwinnable and all the Zergs will disappear from the tourneys, ladder etc". Tournament results and the long list of the zerg players that seem to be doing fine within the current metagame say otherwise.
And than there is another set of complaints that can be summed up with a statement: "I don't like the current meta/gameplay". This is understandable - for example a coinflip is pretty balanced, but it is not a lot of fun to watch (unless it's at Dreamhack).
Let's say little Johnny doesn't like MMM-based TvP and thinks that the right way to play versus Protoss is a 4-port banshee. Pretty soon you would see Johnny posting on TL with the idea of increasing the range, damage and hp on the banshee by 50% to make his goto strategy viable.
This is exactly what the zergies do: my (WoL) strat is not working, other strats(bust) are stupid: blizzard go nerf hellbat, speedvacs and widow mines!
For me saying things like "well, the game has been out for two months, I've played 100 games on the ladder and nothing's gonna change, blizzard fix this!" seems a bit hasty. And the idea of sacrificing balance in favor of a better gameplay is flawed. except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games.
But why would you think that two months is enough to say that the new toys that zergs got do not work? Early all-ins for the zerg work great because they haven't changed for the last two years. Every skilled zerg knows the timings to the last second, knows how to deal a final blow if the first wave does not cut it and can play these games out without thinking,
The same goes for every single unit that terran has received in hots. Mines are new, but leapfrogging them forward is exactly the same (in terms of mechanics) like leapfrogging the tanks. And that's about it, terrans can bank on their WoL MMM(+T) control skills in every 4M game vs the zerg.
On the other hand vipers and swarm hosts did not have any counterparts in WoL, therefore the skill to control them needs to be built from the ground up. Once again: if it took that long for the zergs to figure out how to use the WoL ling/infestor/broodlord composition to the max - how come 2 months is enough to say "this stuff is worthless"?
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On May 12 2013 17:21 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 17:03 Decendos wrote:On May 12 2013 16:51 scypio wrote:
I think there are some things getting mixed up in this thread. We can see some true balance complaints like:
"ZvT is almost unwinnable and all the Zergs will disappear from the tourneys, ladder etc". Tournament results and the long list of the zerg players that seem to be doing fine within the current metagame say otherwise.
And than there is another set of complaints that can be summed up with a statement: "I don't like the current meta/gameplay". This is understandable - for example a coinflip is pretty balanced, but it is not a lot of fun to watch (unless it's at Dreamhack).
Let's say little Johnny doesn't like MMM-based TvP and thinks that the right way to play versus Protoss is a 4-port banshee. Pretty soon you would see Johnny posting on TL with the idea of increasing the range, damage and hp on the banshee by 50% to make his goto strategy viable.
This is exactly what the zergies do: my (WoL) strat is not working, other strats(bust) are stupid: blizzard go nerf hellbat, speedvacs and widow mines!
For me saying things like "well, the game has been out for two months, I've played 100 games on the ladder and nothing's gonna change, blizzard fix this!" seems a bit hasty. And the idea of sacrificing balance in favor of a better gameplay is flawed. except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games. But why would you think that two months is enough to say that the new toys that zergs got do not work? Early all-ins for the zerg work great because they haven't changed for the last two years. Every skilled zerg knows the timings to the last second, knows how to deal a final blow if the first wave does not cut it and can play these games out without thinking, The same goes for every single unit that terran has received in hots. Mines are new, but leapfrogging them forward is exactly the same (in terms of mechanics) like leapfrogging the tanks. And that's about it, terrans can bank on their WoL MMM(+T) control skills in every 4M game vs the zerg. On the other hand vipers and swarm hosts did not have any counterparts in WoL, therefore the skill to control them needs to be built from the ground up. Once again: if it took that long for the zergs to figure out how to use the WoL ling/infestor/broodlord composition to the max - how come 2 months is enough to say "this stuff is worthless"?
ling infestors broodlords were available because of the map change (less rush), infestor change made ling infestor available.
infestor broodlord came soon after the infestor got changed
marine tank is much harder to execute than bio mine. mine has a lower attack priority and can deal with both air and land.
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Not saying they're imbalanced but just watching ZvTs now widow mines look hella frustrating to play against, even just watching it makes me annoyed. I think the unit should have been balanced in such a way that it became a support unit for mmm tank armies rather than completely replacing the tank.
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On May 12 2013 17:33 tomatriedes wrote:
Not saying they're imbalanced but just watching ZvTs now widow mines look hella frustrating to play against, even just watching it makes me annoyed. I think the unit should have been balanced in such a way that it became a support unit for mmm tank armies rather than completely replacing the tank.
I agree that it would probably better if tanks became core again in TvZ. However Blizzard would need to take a look at buffing their current form if they decided to just nerf the mines. Siege tanks are currently one of the weakest units in the game, weirdly enough, and they're only really used in TvT nowadays.
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On May 12 2013 17:28 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 17:21 scypio wrote:On May 12 2013 17:03 Decendos wrote:On May 12 2013 16:51 scypio wrote:
I think there are some things getting mixed up in this thread. We can see some true balance complaints like:
"ZvT is almost unwinnable and all the Zergs will disappear from the tourneys, ladder etc". Tournament results and the long list of the zerg players that seem to be doing fine within the current metagame say otherwise.
And than there is another set of complaints that can be summed up with a statement: "I don't like the current meta/gameplay". This is understandable - for example a coinflip is pretty balanced, but it is not a lot of fun to watch (unless it's at Dreamhack).
Let's say little Johnny doesn't like MMM-based TvP and thinks that the right way to play versus Protoss is a 4-port banshee. Pretty soon you would see Johnny posting on TL with the idea of increasing the range, damage and hp on the banshee by 50% to make his goto strategy viable.
This is exactly what the zergies do: my (WoL) strat is not working, other strats(bust) are stupid: blizzard go nerf hellbat, speedvacs and widow mines!
For me saying things like "well, the game has been out for two months, I've played 100 games on the ladder and nothing's gonna change, blizzard fix this!" seems a bit hasty. And the idea of sacrificing balance in favor of a better gameplay is flawed. except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games. But why would you think that two months is enough to say that the new toys that zergs got do not work? Early all-ins for the zerg work great because they haven't changed for the last two years. Every skilled zerg knows the timings to the last second, knows how to deal a final blow if the first wave does not cut it and can play these games out without thinking, The same goes for every single unit that terran has received in hots. Mines are new, but leapfrogging them forward is exactly the same (in terms of mechanics) like leapfrogging the tanks. And that's about it, terrans can bank on their WoL MMM(+T) control skills in every 4M game vs the zerg. On the other hand vipers and swarm hosts did not have any counterparts in WoL, therefore the skill to control them needs to be built from the ground up. Once again: if it took that long for the zergs to figure out how to use the WoL ling/infestor/broodlord composition to the max - how come 2 months is enough to say "this stuff is worthless"? ling infestors broodlords were available because of the map change (less rush), infestor change made ling infestor available. infestor broodlord came soon after the infestor got changed marine tank is much harder to execute than bio mine. mine has a lower attack priority and can deal with both air and land.
Dodging the question? The transition into HotS is twice as tough for the zerg as it is for the terran: first of all, they need to learn how to deal with new situations (fighting on a minefield). Then they have totally new units they have no idea how to use (viper, swarm host).
Still, they are doing pretty good in HotS, even if they depend on WoL compositions in vs T (but with the new ultras it is not the same really...).
Do you really think that two months worth of games in such a scenario is enough to warrant a statement: "this stuff is worthless, blizzard step in"?
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On May 12 2013 17:37 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 17:33 tomatriedes wrote:
Not saying they're imbalanced but just watching ZvTs now widow mines look hella frustrating to play against, even just watching it makes me annoyed. I think the unit should have been balanced in such a way that it became a support unit for mmm tank armies rather than completely replacing the tank. I agree that it would probably better if tanks became core again in TvZ. However Blizzard would need to take a look at buffing their current form if they decided to just nerf the mines. Siege tanks are currently one of the weakest units in the game, weirdly enough, and they're only really used in TvT nowadays.
would really like if they make tanks more BW like: longer siege time but also more damage output. would need more skill to use (positioning, not getting catched unsieged) but also tanks would be better in all MUs (they are UP in all MUs imo).
WMs on the other hand have no weakness. they are better than tanks in pretty much every way. tanks have better range...thats it. tanks being able to shoot faster doesnt weigh that much imo since fights happen so fast tanks get off max 2 shots anyway. on the other hand WMs have no attack priority, reactored, MUCH cheaper, faster, good in drops, invisible, hit air, splash AND single target damage...right now WM is slightly OP while tanks are slighty UP which is both down to design issues (like the mentioned longer siege time for more damage and no real downside for WMs).
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While I agree WMs are better overall than siege tanks right now, I also think you are really underestimating their better range, and sometimes the ability to shoot unsieged is also handy. And for example a fungal doesn't incapacitate it. Also compared to widow mines siege tanks only do little friendly damage.
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On May 12 2013 17:33 tomatriedes wrote:
Not saying they're imbalanced but just watching ZvTs now widow mines look hella frustrating to play against, even just watching it makes me annoyed. I think the unit should have been balanced in such a way that it became a support unit for mmm tank armies rather than completely replacing the tank.
How do you make such a mine a "support unit" without copying the Spider Mine from BW? ... which would have created a storm of outrage from the BW-haters for not being innovative (for innovations sake).
Your remark is a nice and general "they should have done this instead", but the truth is that there are only so many ways in which to design units and the total number of "style options" are limited:
1. Unit type category I: infantry, mechanical, flyer
2. Unit type category II: caster, army unit, support
3. Damage delivery: melee, ranged, spell
4. Damage: single target, AoE
5. Target type: ground only, air only, both
...
The list of "general characteristics" is not that long and you have a limited number of combinations. Many things are just "flavor characteristics" such as machinegun or laser or acid spit.
The gist of it is - and I have said it before - that Blizzard is adding different stuff to be different from BW on purpose, not because the new unit design makes particular sense or is exciting. They have that urge to "show their superiority" and end up with ridiculous units ... as the Widow Mine clearly shows, but many others have shown before as well. The complete reworking of the Mothership Core and the Oracle or even the Warhound during the HotS beta is another good example of where they "do random stuff without any plan". The Widow Mine is in the game and I wouldnt expect a redesign ever ... it took them years to figure out what to do with the Thor and its energy ... and they still screwed it up.
On May 12 2013 17:54 Sissors wrote:
While I agree WMs are better overall than siege tanks right now, I also think you are really underestimating their better range, and sometimes the ability to shoot unsieged is also handy. And for example a fungal doesn't incapacitate it. Also compared to widow mines siege tanks only do little friendly damage.
Siege Tanks are part of the army and other units synergize with them; Widow Mines are "positional defense units" or "harrassment units" at best which cant really be "used" but are automated like static defenses.
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On May 12 2013 17:54 Sissors wrote:
While I agree WMs are better overall than siege tanks right now, I also think you are really underestimating their better range, and sometimes the ability to shoot unsieged is also handy. And for example a fungal doesn't incapacitate it. Also compared to widow mines siege tanks only do little friendly damage.
I think the problem with siege tanks (and also what I like about them, as I'm not really a fan of turtling and passive play :p) is that they don't hold any position like I would assume they were supposed to. It's really easy to bust a siege tank line if you have just a bit more than the opponent.
I also understand Blizzard's reasoning behind making them weak (by basically introducing a shit load of hard counters): they don't want casual players to just make tanks and sit behind a wall for a fucking hour, which is what would happen at low level of play (up to mid-range foreigner semi-pro level I would say). I dread some TvX between Goody-like Terrans and random EU pros, those could last really really long because foreigners really like to turtle and not attack if they don't have to.
In the current HotS metagame, at least every race has to attack somehow for fear of doom compositions or overwhelming greedy plays. For example, in TvZ, Zerg pressures Terran early on to try to catch greedy 3 CC play and Terrans starts attacking to delay mass mutas or hive tech. It may not be very fair to Zerg currently, because they have trouble being cost efficient against mines with their units, but at least it makes for dynamic games, which wasn't the case in the infamous WoL queen-infestor-broodlord galore metagame.
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On May 12 2013 17:03 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 12:50 vRadiatioNv wrote:On May 12 2013 08:50 aksfjh wrote:On May 12 2013 08:11 Big J wrote:On May 12 2013 03:41 Zarahtra wrote:On May 12 2013 03:21 Rabiator wrote:On May 12 2013 03:16 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 19:49 Godwrath wrote:On May 11 2013 18:06 Chocobo wrote:
Yep. Kinda like how mines are cost efficient vs everything zerg has in the first 15-20 minutes of the game. Erhm, no. Other than broodlords, what is cost efficient against mines for zerg? 1. Spore and Spine Crawlers for the early game ... (They are even good against Hellbat drops since neither of these dies easily to the "vs light" damage and the Medivac dies faster ... which prevents its reuse. Spore Crawlers are great against Phoenix and Oracle too ....) 2. Sending in Overlords to soak up the shots right before your charge ... Just watch a few TvZ games with early harrassment and IMO it is always the "diehard oldschoolers" who try to defend against Hellbat harrassment with Zerglings who are losing the match while the ones who build static defenses seem to be fine. That might be a misperception on my part, but I would suggest you check for yourself. The whole point of HotS seems to be "more harrassment" ... Hellbat, Oracle, Mutalisk regen, Medivac speed, Widow Mine, ... so preparing for that is a requirement and not optional now IMO. Also 2x +3 attack upgrade blings kill a mine(that is less than +3 armor upgrade) which I'd argue isn't that cost inefficient for a zerg(100/50 vs 75/25). It is really obnoxious when a zerg sends 2x blings ontop of a widow mine and blows it up, but terrans quite often in a hurry burry 2x next to each other, so atleast those times it is cost effective. I see it as a great way for a zerg to keep the amount of widow mines on the field in control, rather than letting it spiral. So, just to be clear: I don't think there is any imbalance in the matchup overall, but I do believe that ling/bling/muta (even if you manage to upgrade 3-3+cracklings, 3-0 AND even with small infestor support) can't fight against marine/medivac/mine (or hellbat/tank/marauder variations) and you have to go ultras/broodlords to win after the early 3base Terran phase. That being said, it's not good to trade banes vs mines like that. The equation goes basically like this: 1) marines > lings, mutas, roaches, hydras, queens, swarm hosts 2) marines < banelings, ultralisks, huge infestor count, huge broodlord count Basically, all you want to do as a Terran in those engagements is kill as many banelings efficiently or in equal trades as you can before they touch marines. The rest is just a mob up. On May 12 2013 04:51 plogamer wrote:On May 12 2013 04:48 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 12 2013 03:20 Whitewing wrote:
Be very careful about changing TvZ even if you conclude it is imbalanced. Right now at the highest level, it's the most engaging and exciting matchup to watch. The entire matchup frequently turns into a super long push from terran trying to break zerg while zerg tries to throw the push back one time, with both players micro'ing their faces off to try to be efficient. It's incredibly interesting to watch how they try to out control one another with constant battles and counter attacks. The wrong buff to zerg or nerf to terran could ruin that kind of push and send us back to both players maxxing out before doing anything.
TBH, I think the main problem is that zergs let terrans be too greedy and don't punish it. I kind of agree if they opened with Hellions/Reapers etc. however, you can't always punish it, and it is a lot harder if they opened with 1-2 Siege Tanks(which some of them are doing, mind you) or Mines. It also depends on the map a lot. Or Idra's super greedy opener versus Polt could also be the correct response when scouting 3 cc opener. /edit When it comes to greed, I don't think any race can top the Zerg race. I disagree. When zerg is greedy, zerg gets more mining earlier but no tech at all. When Terran is greedy, they still get their full tech tree much earlier and still have the same amount of CCs, but terran only needs to defend a single entrance (compared to two for outdoor basing zerg). Both races have their ups and downs when playing greedy. I agree with Whitewing on that matter. People should roach rush the fuck out of Terrans. Soulkey, Roro, Symbol and Kangho all have been roach rushing, baneling busting and nydusing their way into Ro8 against Terrans this GSL. Shine made it far similarily (those games against Fantasy...). Life, BBong, DRG, Hyun tried to play macrogames and got destroyed. The macro-metagame right now is very simple. Terrans build 3CCs, double ebays, a few hellions/reapers and go into mass reactored barracks+stim/shields and reactored widow mines/medivacs. Before 9-10mins, a Terran won't have any defences down apart from the hellions and a handful of widow mines/marines. On the flip side, a zerg invests into multiple queens, speed, speedlings, sometimes roaches/defenses relatively early without there even being any actual thread apart from those few hellions/reapers and just falls behind. But if you just blindly allin with roaches, a Terran often won't even have the production to react to anything you do because that build can't really produce anything that does not come from a reactored factory, before 9-10mins. And if a Terran even goes more greedy (like instead of defensive mines, even drops mines/hellbats early with this or gets his upgrades even faster or even more barracks early on, or just 4hellions), it's just a freewin, even if you just put on some semiallinish roach aggression with a third behind it, or a really late roach allin that hits at 10+mins. The only thing I want to add to this is the fact that, while having access to the tech, Terran can't utilize it in quite the explosive nature that Zerg (and even Protoss) can, nor is it as central of a role in winning. The only upgrade/tech that plays a huge, instant role is stim, and maybe combat shields and a tank. Having a starport or being able to produce hellbats isn't going to change the game when the first unit rolls out, unlike finishing a spire or making that first colossus (with range). I agree with pretty much everything Big J said except I do feel that TvZ is just slightly in favor of Terran (as most stats show) and just needs a tiny, tiny adjustment. And at what level do you think TvZ favors Terran?
I would say that TvZ is Terran favoured for non Korean pro scene. Its similiar to WoL with opposite roles. In Korea Zergs are doing ok againts Terran.
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It also doesn't look to me like terran are dominating in WCS Europe. America is bit harder to look at since that is essentially the Korean B-team. Also for example a Dreamhack, where the non-Koreans didn't do too bad, also definately doesn't have an overrepresentation of non-Korean Terrans compared to other non-Koreans.
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On May 12 2013 17:03 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 16:51 scypio wrote:
I think there are some things getting mixed up in this thread. We can see some true balance complaints like:
"ZvT is almost unwinnable and all the Zergs will disappear from the tourneys, ladder etc". Tournament results and the long list of the zerg players that seem to be doing fine within the current metagame say otherwise.
And than there is another set of complaints that can be summed up with a statement: "I don't like the current meta/gameplay". This is understandable - for example a coinflip is pretty balanced, but it is not a lot of fun to watch (unless it's at Dreamhack).
Let's say little Johnny doesn't like MMM-based TvP and thinks that the right way to play versus Protoss is a 4-port banshee. Pretty soon you would see Johnny posting on TL with the idea of increasing the range, damage and hp on the banshee by 50% to make his goto strategy viable.
This is exactly what the zergies do: my (WoL) strat is not working, other strats(bust) are stupid: blizzard go nerf hellbat, speedvacs and widow mines!
For me saying things like "well, the game has been out for two months, I've played 100 games on the ladder and nothing's gonna change, blizzard fix this!" seems a bit hasty. And the idea of sacrificing balance in favor of a better gameplay is flawed. except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games.
You AGAIN!
- Why are roach bane all ins working better in wol then in hots? Because of the siegetank? Very few terrans go siegetanks these days. Widowmines do jackshit vs well microed roaches. At least you have some allins. Do you know how many allins terrans have vs zerg? 0.
- Swarmhosts don't work? Because you tried it 2 times? Let me guess, you were one of those whiners in WOL who claimed ultralisks were bad, right? Then stephano showed you how to STOMP terrans with them, and then you became quiet. What about trying swarmhosts? Or do you need stephano to make you a nice presentation of it? Everytime a genius zerg tried swarmhost against me, I lost (high master level). But keep thinking they don't work, just like ultras didnt work, right?
- Hydras don't work? In WOL we had SLOW hydras, and stephano was DESTROYING code S terrans (!!!!!!!) with roach hydra compositions. That was during those times when 1) hydras were SLOW, and 2) terrans went TANKS instead of mines (and lets be honnest, mines are not so effective against roaches). Now you got FAST hydras and terrans going for 0 tanks. I also saw stephano demolish terrans with roach hydra in HOTS. So again, hydras don't work?
- Where is the infestor? The missile fungal isn't a big nerf, so why did the unit disapear?
- I remember seeing top zergs destroying terrans in macro games. Ofcourse there were a few allins (an allin, something a terran can't do against zerg, so be happy you can), but a lot of games were pure and fun macrogames.
This is WOL all over again. Zergs complaining > after more then a year zergs finally starting to understand the game > zergs destroying everyone. I'm 100% sure that zvt will change completely, with swarmhosts, vipers, hydras and ultras being the key units.You will actually laugh with the builds that are used now. It's time for zergs to play HOTS, and not the WOL ling bling muta style. When they do that, and things still don't work, then I suggest to look at the viper.
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On May 12 2013 17:46 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 17:28 ETisME wrote:On May 12 2013 17:21 scypio wrote:On May 12 2013 17:03 Decendos wrote:On May 12 2013 16:51 scypio wrote:
I think there are some things getting mixed up in this thread. We can see some true balance complaints like:
"ZvT is almost unwinnable and all the Zergs will disappear from the tourneys, ladder etc". Tournament results and the long list of the zerg players that seem to be doing fine within the current metagame say otherwise.
And than there is another set of complaints that can be summed up with a statement: "I don't like the current meta/gameplay". This is understandable - for example a coinflip is pretty balanced, but it is not a lot of fun to watch (unless it's at Dreamhack).
Let's say little Johnny doesn't like MMM-based TvP and thinks that the right way to play versus Protoss is a 4-port banshee. Pretty soon you would see Johnny posting on TL with the idea of increasing the range, damage and hp on the banshee by 50% to make his goto strategy viable.
This is exactly what the zergies do: my (WoL) strat is not working, other strats(bust) are stupid: blizzard go nerf hellbat, speedvacs and widow mines!
For me saying things like "well, the game has been out for two months, I've played 100 games on the ladder and nothing's gonna change, blizzard fix this!" seems a bit hasty. And the idea of sacrificing balance in favor of a better gameplay is flawed. except its the other way around. the old WoL style roach or roach bane all ins or roach nydus allins (which symbol already did in WoL and havent changed one bit) are working if T is bad/doesnt scout/plays insanely greedy. the new stuff in midgame doesnt work: swarmhosts, faster hydras dont work AT ALL, regenerating mutas work if you outplay opponent. the guy mentioning all the macro zergs are out while all the "all in/cheesy zerg" got in ro8 is true to the most part (obv not all macro zergs game are macro and the other way around). thats what all zerg players say is stupid: if you are on equal skill AND want to play a standard macro game TvZ is imbalanced. what makes it a bit more balanced are all the all ins Z does. once T figures them out (roach nydus all in etc. is easy scoutable, so is every roach warren with 2 reaper opening), TvZ will get a lot worse. lets see how it gets fixed. its just NO FUN at all to all in every TvZ right now because you will lose most macro games. But why would you think that two months is enough to say that the new toys that zergs got do not work? Early all-ins for the zerg work great because they haven't changed for the last two years. Every skilled zerg knows the timings to the last second, knows how to deal a final blow if the first wave does not cut it and can play these games out without thinking, The same goes for every single unit that terran has received in hots. Mines are new, but leapfrogging them forward is exactly the same (in terms of mechanics) like leapfrogging the tanks. And that's about it, terrans can bank on their WoL MMM(+T) control skills in every 4M game vs the zerg. On the other hand vipers and swarm hosts did not have any counterparts in WoL, therefore the skill to control them needs to be built from the ground up. Once again: if it took that long for the zergs to figure out how to use the WoL ling/infestor/broodlord composition to the max - how come 2 months is enough to say "this stuff is worthless"? ling infestors broodlords were available because of the map change (less rush), infestor change made ling infestor available. infestor broodlord came soon after the infestor got changed marine tank is much harder to execute than bio mine. mine has a lower attack priority and can deal with both air and land. Dodging the question? The transition into HotS is twice as tough for the zerg as it is for the terran: first of all, they need to learn how to deal with new situations (fighting on a minefield). Then they have totally new units they have no idea how to use (viper, swarm host). Still, they are doing pretty good in HotS, even if they depend on WoL compositions in vs T (but with the new ultras it is not the same really...). Do you really think that two months worth of games in such a scenario is enough to warrant a statement: "this stuff is worthless, blizzard step in"?
I didn't dodge any question, you seem to think zerg took very long to go into broodlord infestor because one day they all woke up and notice how strong it is and I am merely telling you why that was the case, which was mostly due to blizzard's changes to map and unit.
to answer your question:
I can also say something like Terran has the new units and they haven't even get close to max-ing their potential, such as targetting with mines.
I do think two months is worth stepping in but it's because I feel speedmedivac is a huge problem and causing a stagnate growth in metagame, ZvT is almost completely the same everywhere.
There is only one tool to defend against all these speedmedivac, which is muta. We can't even use the new units because how mobile drops are and viper is less efficient than infestors atm
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
This is WOL all over again. Zergs complaining > after more then a year zergs finally starting to understand the game > zergs destroying everyone. I'm 100% sure that zvt will change completely, with swarmhosts, vipers, hydras and ultras being the key units.You will actually laugh with the builds that are used now. It's time for zergs to play HOTS, and not the WOL ling bling muta style. When they do that, and things still don't work, then I suggest to look at the viper.
Good words, but the problem is that if you don't have mutalisk, Terran can outdrop you by Speedivacs, which can transport not only marine/marauder, but also other strong things, like mech with tanks
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EPT
